₦airaland Forum

Ukutsgp: so what type of couple are are they?

pls forget ur early church tradition here. d bible said mary had other children. it is either u will believe d bible or forget it. so where did the bible tells u dat joseph had married before? una dey lie sha.

sola scriptura sentiments.There is a historical basis to whatever you read in the bible, you can't strip this away and think you've got the right interpretation 2000 years after the event. The bible doesn't even tell us what books are in the bible - so your .'where in the bible' question has no validity. Where does the bible say Mary had other children?

Re. the couple, it might have occurred to you that they were raising Jesus the 2nd person of the Trinity plus a little point about the virgin birth. I doubt any other couple can claim this.

btw you haven't answered whether Jesus was the carpenter's son as per your logic

Ukutsgp: catholic believe that Mary never had
anymore children after giving birth to
Jesus and that she remained a
perpetual virgin until she died. Why
are we to believe that Joseph and
Mary never had sexual intercourse?
What husband and wife live and die
together without consummating their
marriage? These are speculative
questions, but is is obvious Mary
could not have remained a virgin if
she had other children as recorded in
the Bible. (Matthew 13:55-56; Mark
6:3).

your premise of ."what husband and wife live and die without consummating..." doesn't hold at all because one could ask the same question about the virgin birth, miracles etc.this was no ordinary couple.
Using your logic, would you agree that Jesus was literally The carpenter's son? - matt13: 55

early church teaching on the brothers and sisters indicate that they were children of Joseph from an earlier marriage thus step siblings of Jesus.

OLAADEGBU: This is one of the points where your church tradition goes against the Scriptures. Let me refer you to an excerpt from the OP:

Church tradition does not go against scriptures. You're interpreting the verse without historical context and coming up with ideas only taught since the 17th century at best . there's a general consensus on Mary's perpetual virginity amongst the church fathers and you'll see the teaching in the Catholic, Orthodox, oriental and even Lutheran churches . I'll rather take the early church interpretation than yours 2000 years after the event. Sola Scriptura cannot explain everything about the faith nor can you justify the bible only practice via it. You always need a guide.
The verse you refer to was to emphasise that Jesus' birth was a virginal birth, nothing more.

OLAADEGBU: Mary was a virgin until she gave birth to Jesus. She did not have any erotic experience and response with Joseph until after the birth of Jesus Christ.

Even your protestant pioneers - Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Ulrich Zwingli will disagree with you, so does the church prior to modern interpretations. Just so you know the word "until" was not used in the same sense as it might mean today. It was just trying to let us know what happened before the birth of Christ and not after. Check out this sentence - Emeka was broke until the day he died, doesn't tell us anything about what happened after he died.

texazzpete: Obviously, you have no experience with buying Apple products. Price does not drop by any substantial amount until the next version is rolling out.

It's a smartphone. There are no 'bugs' to sort out that cannot be fixed with a software update.

Dude, the fact is the price will drop that's my point whether before or after next version. Meaning people don't have to hurry in buying it. You're probably an Apple afficionado but it doesn't stop others from commenting from experience.
Granted about the bugs but it was a play in words to make a point that there will be a new version again soon and technically new versions also fix unresolved bugs from previous versions.

Simple marketing strategy by Apple to get people to part with their cash.the company has got to keep getting income therefore it'll keep bringing products out even if its a small change. I say kudos to Apple for keeping people interested in their products, however people (esp those who cant afford) need to be careful when purchasing these things as it has a way of getting you hooked and in debt.wait a few months and the Price will drop . it'll be 6s next year for sure to sort out the bugs.

honeric01: You're the one avoiding questions by using questions to answer questions and it's annoying.

kindly pick my questions one after the other from the last 3 comments of mine directed at you.

Along with my previous questions, Kindly let me know what church you belong to so I can understand where your interpretation on Confession comes from as the 1st Protestants( lutherans) have Confession to priests.

[quote author=honeric01]

Where is it written to go to priest and priest alone to confess our sins?

You’re not asked to go to priests alone for confession. However, this is the normal means of getting certainty of mortal sins being forgiven. According to CC teaching this is a sacrament instituted by Christ. Just like he instituted Baptism. You see, if you’ve got sola scriptura lenses on you won’t see the historical context to the teachings. Remember that the Church existed before the books (NT) of the bible. To clarify, it is Jesus who does the forgiving via the priest.

Gave the Apostles or gave his followers? when you say "Apostle", are you talking about all true believers or some "selected believers"?

Again, historically, this meant that the gift of forgiving/retaining sins was given to the Apostles and those they ordained(Apostolic Succession).

If you are talking about some selected believers, now that these "believers" are dead, why then gave the instruction to anyone else to forgive/retain sins?

This is to do with Apostolic Succession. Jesus chose his disciples, however the church had to carry on in event of their death. You’ll find that others were ordained to carry on the work of these disciples. Also remember what happened in Acts 1 – The apostles found a replacement for Judas’s role (Bishopric).

Were these "traditions" given by God directly through Jesus or some set of people made these "traditions and laws"? Unfortunately not everything is recorded in the bible. The traditions are based on the teaching of the apostles (see. 2 thess 2 15). the Church was given the authority to bind and loose and it teaches us what is to be believed in terms of faith and morals (e.g. what constitutes the bible)

Is the bible not sufficient enough to lead that we need "traditions" outside the bible to run the affairs of the bible?

Nowhere would you find such a teaching. Unfortunately, the practice of Sola Scriptura has led to a plethora of church denominations not in communion, each claiming to teach the truth. In fact, Sola Scriptura was never a Christian teaching until the 16th Century (Martin Luther) and look at what has happened since. The Church existed before the formation of the bible and it was on the Church’s traditions/ liturgy that books of the bible were accepted. The Church (Apostles, then successors) is what was given the authority to teach, baptise, forgive, ordain, bind & Loose. Therefore, authority comes from the Church who validly teach us the correct faith and morals.

And when you say the "early church", are you talking about the same set of people that killed and tortured the early believers or who represent the early church?

You’re playing with words here, the early church/believers remains the early church – they were persecuted and killed but still the Church survived as per Jesus’ promise. Are you saying that the early believers were different from what has been recognised as the early church? I can categorically inform you that there is no prove for that and is a way for protestants to discredit the catholic Church.

Lastly, who are the early church and who persecuted these set of people as recorded in history?

To summarise, the early church existed and were persecuted by the Romans and others– this does not mean that the Roman government became the catholic church. I know there were a number of heretical sects at the time as well and we can discuss these in another thread if you think these were the true believers/ early church!!

Now that I have addressed these specifically, please respond to my question on your bible pressuposition. You mentioned that the bible was the only guide given to us - who gave us this guide and asked us to use it and when?. How are we to trust that it contains the word of God.

honeric01: They are stirring at you. pick them one after the other.

This isn't how to dialogue. You could just let me know what I haven't addressed. I see you're still avoiding my question on bible being the only guide and how we got it.

@op, i see you're really passionate about converting catholics. several anti catholics have tried this and ended up catholics themselves when they discovered the fullness of truth. You might want to do some research on previous anti catholics Scott Hahn and Tim Staples. Peace, I'm out.

honeric01: How does this answer my questions? how did your post reveal otherwise?

Please let me know what I haven't addressed and I'll address it.at the same time I'll be glad if you could address the questions I posed on your bible presuppositions.

honeric01: This is getting tiring. can you please address my questions as precise as possible without rigmarole?

in essence. My previous post was to highlight that your interpretation of John 20:21 is novel and is far off historical Christianity. Hope this is clearer

honeric01: This is getting tiring. can you please address my questions as precise as possible without rigmarole?

What else would you like me to mention?Please read my response and others and you'll find I've addressed your questions. I know you're not getting what you want but this is because you've got your church's filter on . it'll be great if you could answer my question about the bible posed earlier.

honeric01: No, you didn't address then, rather you beat around the bush, the bible reference you used can be easily interpreted to mean "disciples", apostles are his Disciples and his disciples are his followers which are Christians,you remember Matt 21?

Jesus did not give the charging to Bishops and Priests, he gave the charging to his DISCIPLES. any true believer is a disciple of Christ!

The bible remains the only book we were given as Christians to follow, read the last 3 verses of the last chapter of Revelation, unless you are saying the bible is incomplete and needs other books to make it 100% complete.

I was very clear and i will repeat again: when you say the "early church", are you talking about the same set of people that killed and tortured the early believers or who represent the early church?

Unfortunately, your history is way off.this is what happens when you practice sola scriptura with no historical context. Please look at the church set up prior to 16th century and you'll find confession to priests. Even the 1st protestants, Lutherans,have a form of confession.
Re. The bible given to us, who gave it to us as the only book to follow and when?pls be sincere. Im sure ure aware that the book of revelations is only one book of the bible and was highly disputed as inspired for a long time.

Early Christianity has been addressed in previous posts but could you tell me where the early Christian church is today as it must exist according to lord Jesus.

Arguments tend to lead to anger and though tough to do, I try to listen more during an argument which makes the other party calm down after talking too much.Also taking slow deep breaths and regular exercise generally help in controlling anger.

[b][/b]

honeric01: Where is it written to go to priest and priest alone to confess our sins? [b]I have addressed this, please see previous posts[b]

Gave the Apostles or gave his followers? when you say "Apostle", are you talking about all true believers or some "selected believers"?

If you are talking about some selected believers, now that these "believers" are dead, why then gave the instruction to anyone else to forgive/retain sins? - [b]Apostolic Succession to Bishops and priests[b]

Were these "traditions" given by God directly through Jesus or some set of people made these "traditions and laws"?

Is the bible not sufficient enough to lead that we need "traditions" outside the bible to run the affairs of the bible? How do you know that you need to follow the bible, why not any other holy book? Please note that the church existed before the bible was completed. The books were created for the established church.[b]

And when you say the "early church", are you talking about the same set of people that killed and tortured the early believers or who represent the early church? [b]So by this you mean the gates of hell prevailed against the Church as opposed to what Jesus said? Please clarify.[b]

Lastly, who are the early church and who persecuted these set of people as recorded in history?

[b]bros this has been addressed on this thread, please read my previous posts.[b][b][b]

honeric01: Where is it written to go to priest and priest alone to confess our sins? [b]I have addressed this, please see previous posts[b]

Gave the Apostles or gave his followers? when you say "Apostle", are you talking about all true believers or some "selected believers"?

If you are talking about some selected believers, now that these "believers" are dead, why then gave the instruction to anyone else to forgive/retain sins? - [b]Apostolic Succession to Bishops and priests[b]

Were these "traditions" given by God directly through Jesus or some set of people made these "traditions and laws"?

Is the bible not sufficient enough to lead that we need "traditions" outside the bible to run the affairs of the bible? How do you know that you need to follow the bible, why not any other holy book? Please note that the church existed before the bible was completed. The books were created for the established church.[b]

And when you say the "early church", are you talking about the same set of people that killed and tortured the early believers or who represent the early church? [b]So by this you mean the gates of hell prevailed against the Church as opposed to what Jesus said? Please clarify.[b]

Lastly, who are the early church and who persecuted these set of people as recorded in history?

[b]bros this has been addressed on this thread, please read my previous posts.[b][b][/b]

honeric01: Where is it written to go to priest and priest alone to confess our sins? [b]I have addressed this, please see previous posts[b]

Gave the Apostles or gave his followers? when you say "Apostle", are you talking about all true believers or some "selected believers"?

If you are talking about some selected believers, now that these "believers" are dead, why then gave the instruction to anyone else to forgive/retain sins? - [b]Apostolic Succession to Bishops and priests[b]

Were these "traditions" given by God directly through Jesus or some set of people made these "traditions and laws"?

Is the bible not sufficient enough to lead that we need "traditions" outside the bible to run the affairs of the bible? [b]How do you know that you need to follow the bible, why not any other holy book? Please note that the church existed before the bible was completed. The books were created for the established church.[b]

And when you say the "early church", are you talking about the same set of people that killed and tortured the early believers or who represent the early church? [b]So by this you mean the gates of hell prevailed against the Church as opposed to what Jesus said? Please clarify.[b]

Lastly, who are the early church and who persecuted these set of people as recorded in history? - [b]bros this has been addressed on this thread, please read my previous posts.[b]

Problems responding but you'll see my responses within your quote. got a [b] before and after.

OLAADEGBU: Are you saying that your so called "authority" gave us the OT scriptures?

Bros, you're better than than this. This has been bashed so many times. If you're so concerned you really should follow the line of the Jews. They rejected the whole of the new testament!

OLAADEGBU: I get it now. Your authority comes from the "Sacred Traditions" of your church.

Bros, I hope your not been sarcastic here. Just to burst your bubble, the bible was complied based on the traditions of the catholic church - Historical fact.

OLAADEGBU: The Mormons use the Bible and their book of Mormon as their source of authority, JW's use their bibles and the Watchtower magazines as their authorities. What makes you different when you join your "Sacred tradition" to the commandments of God as your authority?

Please do not compare the Catholic Church with the Mormons and JWs - these organisations came more than 1600 years after the birth of Christianity. the difference with the Catholic Church is that it has existed since the beginning of Christianity, it predates the new testament and compiled books of the bible based on its traditions. I pointed you to Thess. 2:15 which you did not address. You do realise that the established church at different recieved those letters in the bibles?

OLAADEGBU: On what authority do you say Mary was freed from original sin at conception?

the same authority that gave us the bible, that defined articles of Christian faith like - The nature of Jesus, Trinity, Easter, 7 Sacraments, Apostles Creed etc.

OLAADEGBU: You have not answered the question. Where in the Bible is it said that Christians should go to priests?

Once agin, this is very weak. I asked in an earlier post:
"Where in Scriptures does it say that I can only get answers from it? Where in Scriptures does it tell me what books make up the bible." Bros, Please sincerely read my previous posts for the answer to your question.

[b][/b]

OLAADEGBU: That is the difference between Christians and Roman Catholics. True Christians get their authority from the Word of God, Roman Catholics get their authority get their's from the Vatican.

So you have concluded that Catholics are not true Christians? Please let us know who the true Christians are. To refute your assertion, Catholic Christians get their authority from the Word of God [both written and Oral (Sacred tradition) - please see Thess 2:15] and the teaching Authority of the Church (1 Tim 3:15; matt 18:17). You did not address the points I raised.

honeric01: If believers can't retain sins, then why should "priest" retain sin? are they more of a believer than a believer or do they possess some exclusive right to forgive and retain sins?

You don’t get the point; Priests can retain sins, for instance if after confessing a sin to the priest, one does not show contrition/ resolve not to commit the sin anymore, then the sin is retained by Jesus through the Priest. This practice goes way back and you can see its basis when Jesus gave the apostles the power to forgive/retain sins in John 20. Remember that the Jews did not think Jesus had the power to forgive sins (Luke 5:21), but we know he can and he gave the apostles this power as per John 20.

This point is different from asking the believers to forgive one another.
Please realise that bible did not just drop out of the sky with instructions on how to develop the christian faith in 33AD. In fact there were already established traditions, liturgy, sacraments in the Church before the books of the bible were completed. If you understand this then you'll see the context to a lot of practices in the Early church to date.

OLAADEGBU: Where in Scriptures does it say that we should confess our sins to a priest?

You've been on NL long enough to know that this question makes your own believe in Sola Scriptura fall on its face. Where in Scriptures does it say that I can only get answers from it? Where in Scriptures does it tell me what books make up the bible.This is weak, please read my previous post for the basis of confession(officially the sacrament of reconciliation).

honeric01: ^^^

In essence, all true believer can forgive sins. not reserved for any pastor, priest or whatever if we are to go by that verse.

Unfortunately, this is trying to explain the verse away but this goes against Christian history. Can these believers also retain sins?

OLAADEGBU: Did any of the apostles say we should be confessing to priests, popes or worshiping the wafer?

Even better – you can go to Our Lord Jesus speaking John 20: 21- Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you retain their sins, they are retained. [i][/i] How would the apostles ( apostolic succession to Bishops & Priests) know what sins to forgive or retain? Only via confession to the them. This practice goes way back to the early days of Christianity.

Re - Eucharistic Adoration (not wafer worship), the bread becomes our Lord JESUS after the words of consecration by Jesus through the priest. (John 6 - TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT OF IT,FOR THIS IS MY BODY>>>>>> . This practice goes back to early Christianity through the middle ages and was formally declared as worship at the Council of Trent (16th Cent.) after challenges from protestants! Similar councils declared the majority of the articles of Christian Faith in earlier centuries ( e.g. books of the Bible, Trinity, nature of Christ, Circumcision etc.). My question to you is: if Jesus were to appear in front of you today, will you adore him or not?

OLAADEGBU: "My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour, for He has been mindful of the humble state of His servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me — holy is His name" (Luke 1:46-49).

This is the prayer Mary prayed. She said God my Saviour, meaning that she was a sinner saved by God. Do you see why we are not to worship her?

It's worth taking a look at the immaculate conception dogma. Yes she needed a saviour, hers was just done earlier by a singular act of grace from God, she was freed from original sin at conception.This all hacks back to gen 3 :15. As @nnatom implied, Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb and this had to be sinless. Adam and Eve were also created sinless so nothing God cannot do.

OLAADEGBU: Even though Jesus did what Mary said but this was not after He had somewhat rebuked her by saying that His mission was not to do temporary ephemeral things but to save His people from their sins. Apart from this place, Mary is never shown in Scripture to demand or request anything from Jesus.

So, from your sola scriptura, you were able to read that Jesus said 'his mission was not to do temporary ephemeral things....?unfortunately,This is your own interpretation of the verse. Another effort to dishonour the blessed virgin Mary.Did the bible record everything that happened historically? Bros,please try to quit all this nonsense of opening threads to slate the CC and try to get some understanding of what the CC teaches and why..

Did the couple's family from Italy attend the traditional wedding?all the best to them in marriage

JMAN05: When ur encyclopedia identify what you give to Mary as worship, dont blame another person if he calls it worship.

I don't know what Encyclopedia you're referring to, however, in its original usage, the word 'Worship' also meant to give respect, reverence, honour. You see this in usage in the British court sytem where you hear 'your worship'. These days its more common to say 'your honour'.
Within the CC, the words Latria - is Adoration/worship given to the Trinity alone (I know it's against JW teaching), while Dulia is the honour given to Saints.

JMAN05: Hello, Constantine saying catholic is not the same meaning as Iraneaous did. constantines intentions were to merge all the religion in his empire, both pagan and Christianity. It is a ROMAN Universal Church, no denomination, no sect, all come together. It was to be a State Religion. Constantine never subtracted his own pagan religion from this. He himself was a pagan, even though he presided over an ecumenical council meeting. I hope am right? How can a pagan be there? that is why some call him a pope I guess.

The early xtians never was in Politics, and never meant to refer to a politically motivated religion as catholic.

Of course, that was the origin of many pagan beliefs that have now been christianized. So dont confuse constantine's catholic with the one said previously.

Ah Ok. So where is the church Ireaneaus was referring to?

JMAN05: But what Catholics give to Mary is among what they call Christian worship. Isnt that enough?

Catholics do not worship Mary for the n^th time. Please sincerely find out what Catholics, Orthodox, Coptics do with Mary.