₦airaland Forum

OLAADEGBU:
Do you know the meaning of providence? The sovereign God saw to it that His Word got to His people and did not leave it to the game of chance. God doesn't play dice. He can even use the devil to achieve His aim.



I know you are taught to believe whatever your pope says as your final authority, the reason you say that he is infallible in his pronouncements. Those who have the Word of God as their final authority would believe what is written in as certainty;

"For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it" (Exodus 20:11).

Even Peter whom you erroneously claim to be your first pope would obey God rather than man.



The true Christian Church are those who are called out of the world, who have been washed by the blood of the Lamb, those who have Jesus only as their Lord and Saviour and those who don't add to the finished work of Jesus on the Cross for their salvation. For Sola scriptura read 2 Tim 3:16.

It might not have occured to you that the CC has one teaching, I don't think you get the same from all the sola scriptura denominations! BTW, the authority within the CC is scripture, sacred tradition and the teaching magisterium of the Church.
You are free to believe in a literal 6 days. Your problems arises if science proves otherwise. As mentioned before, the 6 days could be an allegory for the complexitiy of what happened. This is why the CC leaves the question of the actual events open but defines that God was the cause of whatever did happen as opposed to the atheistic view of chance.
You'll find the catholic view in the following link, http://www.catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution.

As to your prove of sola scriptura, this was debunked in my previous response as below:

This passage is often used as prove of sola scriptura but is very wrong. Firstly, it says scripture is profitable not all sufficient.

Secondly from your logic I also read from the bible that [b]perseverance is all I need to be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing ( James 1:4). [/b]This is why you need the totality of church authority to make decisions, some sect might wake up tomorrow saying , you see it says it in the bible that all you need is perseverance!!

Thirdly, the passage you quote is taken well out of context – because the previous verses also talk about Timothy continuing in the things he has learnt from whom he had learned them and also scriptures which at this point would have been the OT.


How do you know that we should follow the bible and the bible alone? In your view who makes the decision when there is misinterpretation and opposing views on articles of christian faith?

Did you find your definition of the true christian church in your sola scriptura? And what church is this that meet your criteria?

JusConcept:
It is not only unbiblical to attempt to negate this, but it is illogical for a Christian to conclude that man should pray for those who have died, yet in their sins. For if they have any stain of sin yet to be purged at death, then after death is no opportunity to change the judgment thereof.

Hebrews 9:26-27

"For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
All of our sins, bar none, were put away "once" by the sacrifice of Christ. Anyone who needs purging from sin after death, has obviously never had his sin atoned for by Christ in life, and is thus still dead in trespass and sin. And after death is the judgment, not the opportunity for atonement.

Eagerly awaiting your considered response to @Ubenedictus' question as you didn't address it.Please enlighten us as to why Christians have always prayed for the dead as you're giving us some novel teaching.
BTW,Macabees isn't extra-biblical.
Also,what makes you so confident in your teaching?

OLAADEGBU:
Where did you get the idea of apostolic successions, the Bible or your tradition?

Historical fact,not everything is recorded in the Bible nor is there any indication that every was to be recorded in the bible.

OLAADEGBU:
God made sure that the 66 inspired books got round to all the churches in due time and they were all written in close proximity of the event happening. This cannot be said about your deuterocanonicals.



The true Christian Church takes Scriptures alone as their absolute authority and Jesus Christ alone as their Lord and Saviour. They do not join issues. Can you say the same about your organisation, especially as your pope has come out publicly to deny the Word of God that the World started with a big bang and that we all evolved from molecule to mankind. All of you his adherents are supposed to take his words as infallible, no?

weak argument you've got here. God made sure zzz. I wonder why there were disputes even within the 1st century about what books to be considered scriptures.
Anyway,are you a fundamentalist?what pope said does not go against the Scriptures. Do you know the creation story in Gen might be an allegory of what happened especially as people of the day were simple minded. If science finds some info it doesn't mean God isn't behind it in.This is why you need the church to guide you.
By the way,please let me know the true Christian Church you're referring to. And where you got the teaching of sola scriptura.
Oh yes Jesus is the Lord and Saviour. Totally agree.

OLAADEGBU:
The Word of God was not arrived at after disputes and debates. The Holy Spirit used holy men of God to pen down His Words and He did not leave it up to our own private interpretation. All the God breathed words were written close to the time they were uttered and not decades after as your church asserts.

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Peter 1:20-21).



You keep saying the Jews rejected the NT. Who were the apostles God used in writing the NT, where they not Jews? The Septuagint was just an Hebrew translation of the OT into Greek as that was the language of the day. The so called church fathers that you base your faith are those who wrote decades after the event and they were far from the truth if they wrote anything contrary to the 66 books of the Bible. If the Roman catholic church followed what was written in the Holy Scriptures they would not be saying you believe anything that is not supported by Scriptures.

The books were not available at all churches at the same time and it is historical fact that the earliest NT book ( Probably Galatians, Thess or Mark) was written after 48AD. This is some time after the events up to 33AD.
I’m sure you’re aware that the majority of Jews still practice Judaism. Mentioned Septuagint as it included the deuterocanonicals.

Your doctrine of sola scriptura itself is not thought within the scriptures so I wonder where you got this teaching from!
The CC believes all the scriptures and you should remember that the same scriptures define the Church as the pillar & foundation of Truth. As I keep stating, the NT scriptures were written to the established church not the other way round.

OLAADEGBU:
Going by your line of reason, you might as well say that the JW's, Mormons and other cults are justified in using their books to interpret the Bible. You don't need any traditional filter such as your church tradition if they contradict what's written in the Holy Scriptures what you need is an intimate relationship with the author of the Scriptures and it's only Him that can interpret it to you as you prayerfully read, study, meditate on it before you can begin to apply it to life situations.

"Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come" (John 16:13).

The apostles where guided into the truth and penned it down for us to peruse and study and to be guided by. The Church is built on this truth for on Christ the solid rock we stand, all other ground is sinking sand.

We've been over this before. JW and Mormons are new organisations with novel interpretations. Their organisations fail the test of Apostolic Succession. If the wish to interpret a certain way that's up to them. It doesn't mean that their views like yours have been believed by christians from early times.

The Synoptic gospels were penned anonymously, it was through tradition that the authors were identified.

Happy Sunday all.I pray for God's blessings.May this be a fruitful week for us all.Amen

If something major like okada is to be banned,it needs to be done over a long period of 3 to 5 years.this will give the riders time to adjust and dare I say will allow Govt put alternatives in place

OLAADEGBU:
The Holy Spirit will guide and He will not contradict what He has inspired in the Scriptures.

"Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come"(John 16:13).

Oh yes the CC believes this. Where it disagrees with you is where you think every Ola, Emeka & Danjuma can pick up the bible and erroneously interpret passages without historical context.
Without wanting to sound like a broken record, this is what has led to countless Christian Denominations, each believing it has the correct interpretation/doctrines.
Jesus set it up a particular way by creating a Church with the Holy Spirit to guide it. It is that church which has authority to bind and loose etc.

OLAADEGBU:
The Holy Spirit saw to it that all His inspired Words were compiled and collated. The church for instance had nothing to do with the Hebrew Bible, it was already compiled and that is what our Lord Jesus and His apostles read. The apostles by the leading of the Holy Spirit concluded the rest making up to 66. Any person calling himself a church father that writes anything outside the inspired Scriptures and calls them the Word of God is a deceiver. Any other book can be written but it still remains the words of man which is subject to error.

you're only able to state this with the benefit of living many centuries after the disputes and debates. The holy spirit was certainly at play but you're downplaying the role of the church in making things happen. The fact is the NT books were written decades after the event over a long period. You have mentioned a few times that John wrote the last book, however, what you do not see from him is a table of contents for the bible.this was done much later.
You go on about the Hebrew Bible, you are aware that there were other canons at the time e.g the Septugiant. Just so we are clear,the Jews rejected the NT as they didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah.
The church fathers explained the Christian faith as they understood it based on scriptures and sacred tradition. Any opinion that didn't fall in line with established teaching was condemned by the church.

OLAADEGBU:
The Scriptures interpretes itself, it is that dynamic. All it takes is for you to be willing to know and obey the truth.

This is not entirely true.What you believe is scriptures interpreting itself is actually each person bringing their own traditional filter when looking at scriptures.this is why you get different doctrines on the big issues among calvanists,Lutherans,Methodists,innumerable pentecostals etc.
just look at this thread for instance;you believe drinking alcohol is sinful but this contradicts your fellow sola scriptura adherents' interpretation.
Talk less of issues like abortion, contraception,Trinity,eucharist,evolution,tithes etc.
As I've stated before,this is why a guide is needed(the church) to give judgement on these matters.you get an example of this in written scriptures when judgement was made on the issue Circumcision or not for gentiles.

OLAADEGBU:
The oral tradition Paul talked about is the same thing as what is written in Scriptures. Holy men of God were used to pen down the Scriptures and apostle John was the last apostle who wrote the last book. After this there is no more revelation, all else are illumination on what God has written in the 66 books by the prophets and apostles. If your church tradition contradicts or adds to what is written in the oracle of God that would mean that it should be discarded otherwise you will be placing yourself under a curse as stated in Scriptures.

Obviously, the CC and E Orthodox disagrees with your incomplete number of 66 books but agrees there is no new revelation. The fact that you even know these books or that John wrote the last book is down to tradition. It was church tradition that helped select the books for the bible. For a while some churches had some books and not others. Some even had books that didn't get into the bible. All the while being guided by church.
Christianity did not start as a religion of the book only, it started when Jesus sent the Apostles out to teach what they had learnt, baptising etc - Sending down the Holy spirit on Pentecost and saying the Holy spirit will lead the church to all truth. Before Paul came into play, how did the church function?
There were a number of events that took place that didn't get recorded but it doesn't mean they are not as valid - This is why they are called sacred tradition. This is why the CC goes to the early church fathers to see what they said and how the faith was practiced. E.g. List of bishops, how to baptise, who Jesus actually was (you do realise that the Jews still don't accept Jesus as the Messiah), this is why it's not simply about everybody reading the bible without the tradition (the context)

OLAADEGBU:
You don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water. Put your trust in the Word of God that cannot fail not your human tradition.

The issue isn't with the Word of God (Oral or Written), the issue is with the interpretation and what the true faith is. This is why guidance is required.
I don't believe it's the Holy spirit that has led to countless competing denominations over the years, this has been caused by every man thinking he has the correct interpretation without Historical Context or guidance of the church.

Look back to Acts 15 - you'll see how the church works.

chysam:
I think so much believe in human traditions has blindfolded the catholics that they no longer read the bible but rather quote it out of context even as partial christians they are.Bible did not condemn alchol drinking but advised against taking too much of it. In the OT,alchol was infact used and accepted by God in tithing. In the NT,an apostle advised a christian brother to take some due to his health condition. Let me know if you have any question.

this further proves delusion as you're stating the same things I have stated but attacking at the same time.!Dude I'll pray for you.

chysam:
You have now ran out of psalm right?. And now you want to open another chapter about light or no light. Don't bother about that for now so we do not digress following your unworkable tactics.
Remember that your refusal to accept the teachings of the gospel on the basis that it has been corrupted already has ruled out your Mary as even having existed at all.Are you aware of that?.So your believe in Maria is the only reason why you "MUST" believe every single word contained in the injil.it is tantamount to idiocrity for any Catholic to open his mouth and condemn the new testament scriptures because that is where her beloved Mary is.Furthermore,Mary was around when some of these books were being compiled.can you notice the folly here.Againher first encounter with the angel was strictly related to her virgin birth.I would no longer ask you where it is recorded she would be Catholics intercessor,but I would rather ask you to explain to us why the bible omitted this role which is equally as important as her giving birth to jesus since the writers as you also agree were led by the spirit in writing.Can you please tell us why the angel was missing at a time he was supposed to deliver this second message about Mary. Since you partially believe in christ,please can you also tell us why Jesus in all his teachings never for a minute advised his congregants of which Mary was part of to pray to him through he beloved mother.Remember you are very quick in telling us that even Mary advised his disciples to carry out jesus' orders.Can you please tell us why one of such orders was not to pray to him through Mary.

Those verses clearly proved beyond any reasonable doubt that those men and women were jesus' step brothers and sisters.The reason is because why the jews may refer to just everybody as brother,the greeks are always specific about who they want to address.They give uncle to uncle,cousin to cousin and vice versa.In this record,the speaker meant jesus' direct blood brothers which the shared through Mary.Please check the greek version of that verse. Again and again,the speaker was expressing surprise over jesus' divine knowledge as something his blood brothers and sisters do not have.The surprise here is how come this man is mysterious when his mother,brothers and sisters aren't?. Otherwise the question would have been,"Is this not jesus?,is this not his mother Mary?,are these not his cousins?". Brothers and Sisters would have been completely eliminated. Since the catholics have falsely assigned the other children to a harlot who later became born again and had no husband even and was saved from a death sentence by the Christ, the questions could as well have been,"Is this not jesus?,is this not his mother Mary?,are those not the other Mary's children?,or are these not her sister's children?."

The bible never said anything about Mary in an honorable way after christ's birth.This is enough prove that her theory after her virgin birth is purely human evolution.Besides she was surbodinate to the apostles throughout her lifetime as she constantly followed other disciples in doing what the leaders advised.Giving birth to Jesus in no way made her immaculately born because she was a product of sex,was married,and was in a husband's home all her life.Are you aware that Jesus rated john the baptist way ahead of Mary and any creature?.Do you think christ is wrong?,and the RCC wiser than him?. Please explain to us we are waiting.
Astonishingly,the RCC .

OK this is delusion. I mistakenly thought you'll debate genuinely and have considered responses.i choose to ignore your responses now.

OLAADEGBU:
Wherever alcohol is declared surplus you will not see or hear the name of the Lord glorified. The multiplication of loaves of bread and fish on the other hand is food that fed the hungry who were listening to the words of eternal life and we know that alcohol is not food. Jesus would not produce what would go against the glory of God.

"Thus says the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one says, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all" (Isaiah 65:8.)

As you can see in this verse, that the grace juice still in the cluster is said to be "the new wine." This cannot be the alcoholic wine that make you drunk. Jesus created the new wine to the glory of God.

It's amazing how you contradict your own source of knowledge!! - http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-water-wine.html

Your interpretation is way off the mark. Please let us know where this was taught historically. Nothing wrong with Alcohol, it is excess that is sinful.

OLAADEGBU:
When I assert that the Scriptures are God breathed and verbally inspired you should realise that it has little or nothing to do with your church traditions. Even if you erroneously argue that the NT was compiled by your church has your church got anything to do with the Hebrew Scriptures? If your answer is yes then you should have known that All Scriptures, including the book of Revelation are verbally inspired by the Holy Spirit. The verses below shows that God is the author of the Scriptures, which excludes your man tradition:

(Deuteronomy 4:2).

"What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it" (Deuteronomy 12:32)

(Proverbs 30:6).

Now compare these verses with Revelation 22:18-19 and see whether the sin of blasphemy is not as serious as God says it is.

(Revelation 22:18-19).

This should warn us of the danger of adding or removing from the Bible (Old and New Testaments) by assuming or allegorising what is clearly written in the holy Scriptures. John was the last apostle to pen down the last book of the Bible and no church tradition or dogma should stand as a rival to it.

I have commented that it is the principle of ‘both and’ in the CC and not scripture against sacred tradition. You choose to deny this, that’s up to you.
So the fact that the church existed before a word of the NT was written has no value? Do you realise that the books where written to the existing church?
Are you aware that it is the church that is the foundation and Pillar of truth?
Are you aware that the church is the final arbiter as per Matthew 18:17?

chysam:
Comrade,I argued the bible much better than you when I was still a RC.So much that my Cathecist shed tears uncontrolably when I saw the light and decided to leave in order to be salvaged.Like you now,I spent all my time learning how to twist the bible and evolve baseless reasons just to promote and defend the Maria Dogma.I pray you will someday receive this much needed understanding.

Psalm 69:5.This verse is not a confession of sin, but a protestation of innocence, He maintains that he is a sufferer, not for his sins, but for his piety.The sins of those for whom Christ died, by being imputed to him, no doubt became his in the eyes of the law, in such a sense as to make him answerable for them. But the Scriptures, be it observed, while they speak of him as "wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities," and as "bearing our sins in his own body on the tree," as if afraid to use any forms of expression which would even seem to derogate from his immaculate purity, speak of the sins of those for whom he died as his own sin. Please see Psalm 69:7 to lend credence to the above truth.

Bros, you may have been able to argue the bible more but that’s not the point. I don’t have to argue the bible, the church teachings are there and people more qualified and closer to events have already done the work. I don’t have to find novel interpretations to suit anything or learn how to twist the bible ( according to your words).
Your interpretation that 69:9 means Mary had other children holds no water as we do not have a reference to his mother’s children in the NT. Also, where historically has anyone talked about his mother’s kids. The CC looks at the whole of scripture and doesn’t just pluck verses here and there. The fact that the bible was only divided into chapters in the 13th Century by the church should give you an idea.

If I may ask, you said you saw the light, where is this light?

enigmaotr:
Everything we need to a live pleasing to God is all in the Bible. We're talking about addition of doctrines, you're talking about addition of books into the Scripture. Does the New Testament contradict the Old Testament in its teachings and doctrines? The New Testament is not saying anything new from the Old Testament. The precepts are the same until the Catholics add Mary worship and sunday sabbath into their own doctrines. The fact still remains that both New and Old Testaments frown at image worship and commandment breaking. Catholics break the first law of God every time they bow and pray to images. That's that addition I'm talking about. The writers of New Testament made references to the Old Testament throughout their writings. Show me anywhere in the Scripture where image worship is allowed and I'd believe catholics are on track?
I can intercede for my loved ones in prayer only when I'm alive. The dead don't pray. Mary is sleeping in her grave. There are differences between sleeping and living saints. You can continue your Mary worship! I've been that road before and I've seen it all and I've made my choice to quit. Remember, all the words I write to you will be a witness against you in judgement.

Thou shall not kill? I condemn any act of murder! It is very wrong for the Reformers to kill catholics.
But do you know, this is not an excuse for killing 50 million souls before then?
It's even the catholics canon law to kill christians. According to Decreti, pars ii. causa xxiii. quaest v. can. xlvii:
"Those are not to be accounted homicides who, fired with zeal for Mother Church, may have killed excommunicated persons."
The church hasn't changed a bit. They will kill billions again when they come up with another religious law and this time, it will be the end.
I do not wish to waste more time with you any more on this topic. Peace.

I need to point out that you'll need to substantiate your claim of the CC killing 50 million people. Where did you get this figure from? While there were a number of killings during the inquisition, I'll like to know how you came about the figure of 50million. We need to be careful when we peddle certain information.

OLAADEGBU:
It is either your tradition is true and the bible is wrong or vice versa, there are no two ways about it.

the CC teaches 'both and' not 'either or'. 2 Thes 2:15 will give you an idea.

OLAADEGBU:
Yes, Jesus revealed His glory by performing a miracle of creation by turning water into non alcoholic wine but you cannot deny the fact that many folks have ended up drinking themselves to a state of stupor erroneously believing that Jesus sanctioned the drinking of alcohol drink and thereby losing their souls.

bros,I don't know where you got your info from but Jesus turned water into WINE not fruit juice.your novel interpretation goes against history. Drinking alcohol is not a sin,drunkeness and excessive drinking is what is sinful.
By your logic,are you saying Jesus promoted gluttony by multiplying the loaves and fish above what people required?

chysam:
Absolutely yes,it applies to Jesus. Or do you object to this?

I actually meant 69:5.Jesus had sins?one needs to delve deeper to understand that psalm which is why you can't just pluck mother's children to mean Mary's children.

OLAADEGBU:
There you go, doubting, denying and disobeying the Word of God. Same tactics the serpent used on Eve.

bros I don't doubt the word of God.I was trying to point out that your assertion of Revelations been the last book is down to tradition. The warnings applied to the book of revelations only.the book almost didn't made it into the bible due to disputes so you're taking things for granted centuries after the event

chysam:
They have,but just have no answer to it and therefore tactically omit it.Some have tried to explain that the comment is directed to the nation of Israel which makes no sense.Was Mary also the mother of the nation of Israel?. Have you ever heard them react to Acts 4:12?. Like I said earlier,they know and understand all these falshood and dogmas in them,but because it has been a long time tradition it becomes absolutely difficult to effectuate positive transformation as doing one will lead to other changes too and you know what this means.Total collapse of the CC.So they would rather stick to their evolution and damn the consequences.

brother I wish you had addressed my response to your long post earlier so we can have a proper debate. i did not tactically avoid your point about psalm 69:8 in fact I pointed out 69:4 and whether this applies to Jesus. I still await your response.

OLAADEGBU:
All revelation ended in the last book of the Scripture called "Revelation" There's a curse on anyone who tampers with it.

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Please do a bit of research and you'll find this book was disputed for a while. You only know it's the last book from tradition

.

Ichiato:
Where in the scriptures says if it is not in the scripture then it is not God breathed? or you also manufactured that one? 1 e-knock for you if you don't show me the scripture.

You are saying the scriptures made no exceptions here again. Not everything has to be in the bible.

Yes bro,they so quote that verse out of context.also forgetting that Paul could only have been referring to the OT. I believe I debunked his premise in a previous response

nedu2000:
if its truly for the reason of developing african football then CAF would've set a quota for each team on how many home based players are to participate. We both know that there's no development when the foreign based professionals still dominate the teams.
You will have to admit that African football can't b said to have made significant progress in competitions like the worldcup/confed cup despite the increase in team participation in fact the nations' cup's 2 year interval is a reason why most european manager would rather sign a south america who won't have to leave him by january

Let's just say they had good intentions initially,obviously CAF needs major reforms to actually develop African football. I suppose from your points that's why managers never pay top dollar for African players.

nedu2000:
CAF has always been greedy,that's why the AFCON is held every two yrs unlike other confederations,Morocco has valid reasons,the lives of their citizens shouldn't be toyed with,ebola has gone global.....

probably held every 2 years to help develop African football.If you remember Africa only had 1 rep in the world cup around the time ACON was set up and even now it only has 5 reps.Even With this, Europe is calling for an increase in its reps.

Rich4god:
Good... Thats just what I wanted to hear... But, there are some couple who have been successfully divorced by the church... And one of the couple remarried in the church. How do you explain this...

May I jump in please.
The church doesn't carry out divorce,even where couples divorce legally in the secular court the church recognises the marriage as valid.
the church does carry out annulments which is where a church tribunal looks at the marriage to determine its validity. If not valid(due to a no. of specific reasons),the marriage is declared null and void meaning no marriage ever took place in God's eyes. The couple is then free to remarry as long as one is not permanently impotent.

vooks:
What scriptures from Genesis to Revelation tell you to celebrate Christmas or Easter?
These are late traditions and Christianity was doing fine by itself before the inventions came in

now I see you didn't understand my original comment. the holy spirit guided the church.(pillar and foundation of truth) just like he guided the authors of the bible books.
The church is able to bind and loose as per Jesus.
The Jews celebrated the passover feast, easter is the fulfilment of the passover.
my question to you is,how do know that we should believe in the writings from Genesis to Rev? Also you do realise that the scriptures were written decades after the event?

vooks:
Which scriptures?

Holy spirit inspired men to write books that ended up being OT and NT.