₦airaland Forum

vooks:
Both are totally irrelevant and man-made

this is taking things for granted. Without the memorials of xmas and easter it would have been almost impossible to keep Christianity alive all these centuries. The holy spirit guided the church to do it likewise the scriptures.

Brother, I’m sorry you’ve had to leave the CC. I’ll like to think it’s because of been badly catechised especially if you believe what you were doing was worshipping Mary. You’ve mentioned that there are droves of Catholics converting, however it might interest you to know that protestants ( especially highly educated, well researched fellows and pastors) are coming into the CC – Please check out episodes of Journey Home – EWTN on YouTube and Coming Home Network on the internet.
Please see response below

chysam:
Brethren,I have been following all your comments since inception and just can't hold back laughter.The greatest of blessings would be on the guy that shared this post.It will indeed be an eye opener to those who are still in darkness and operating under the influence of inducement,ignorance and indoctrination.
I was a hardcore Catholic as a youth and would have killed for Mary if that opportunity came my way.It is very difficult to explain the religion of the catholics because in Christian matters they always try to argue out their points like juries on judicial contract.They have so much applied mere human intelligence in defending their faith so much that bibles used by any other denomination is unreal.However when they quote from their own version we read similar informations and the corrolations in alignment. They argue spiritual matters based purely on researches and findings by mere mortals whose primary aim always is to induce readers into glorifying their works.

Your argument here is flawed because we have also relied on mortal human authors of the bible; by your logic do we discard what they wrote? Remember they didn’t even write for decades after the event. What gives you the assurance that what they wrote is to be believed?

They attach so much importance to Languages spoken in Greece and Italy and feel that understanding them is a major step to God's kingdom.For the little minds,let me educate you now that no language is greater than another.Every language is equal to another and has the same value.God made it so.So if you stand before a crowd taking pride in speaking Latin as an old man,then you are making a very big fool of yourself because in countries where those languages originated,toddlers who still wet their beds and infact defecate uncontolably speak them better.

I think this is also way off because English as we know it is a relative modern language (< 500 years). The scriptures were not written in English but only translated to it more than a 1000 years after the event. There is emphasis on the Greek, Hebrew followed by Latin because these were the languages of the day. The scriptures were expressed within a particular tradition and it is easier to interpret when you go back to these languages.

The bone of contention here is who Mary was?.
We all know who she was as is indicative of the Catholic bible as well.But because Catholics feel the writers of Mary's history did not do so in full,they felt there was need to expanciate and elaborate further.This elaboration however became a human tradition outside the bible and their own bible.A wise question here is why were the early christians who were Catholics as they say attach insignificant importance to Mary that they never realised until now that she was their intercessor on spiritual matters?.

You might want to have a read of the early church fathers and what they said about Mary. I can provide some notes if you want. The way the church works is that it only formally confirms teaching where there is a dispute or challenge. This was the case with Mary’s intercessory role.

A most foolish way to defend oneself is to argue whether or not every thing that happened in bible times is included in the bible.Only relevant matters that would be of benefit to believers were recorded and any that was recorded was explicitly narrated and concluded up to a meaningful and reasonable understandng.In Mary's case,Isaiah would not have been daft not to add that after Mary's birth,she would go on to become the transporter of prayers made to her son and God.Even if he was,God's angel would have delivered the message in full.

I’ll be interested to know how you came about this teaching because the church has been following written and oral tradition as per 2 Thess 2:15.

Are we also aware that Mary had parents?.Supposing her parents did not give birth to her?.So her father and mother too are equally blessed for giving birth to a maiden who gave birth to the Christ,they too deserve to be honored.The book of Psalm confirms that Jesus' mother had other children and the Catholic strongly believe in the Psalm of David.So why all this rigmaroling?.Let anyone who can quote this psalmic verse out of context do if he can.69:8-9

The Church focuses on matters that are true, if it deems Mary’s parents are saints then they would be honoured like the other saints. About psalm 69, What will you say about 69:4, are you saying Jesus was guilty with Sin?The reason I mention this is that one has to delve deeper to understand some of these scriptures, some of the verses cannot be applied to Jesus. In the case of 69:8 – this more closely refers to Israel and it’s sons.

The issue related to worshipping Mary pulled me out of Catholic.In addition to keeping some informations unexplainably sacred and making them an exclusive concern of the so called exalted clergies who constantly made us believe the decisions from the Vatican are unquestionable.Jesus kept answering questions from both the standards and the poors until his death and even after.The catholics worship Mary indeed, and the pressure is so much on them to reverse such dogmatic practice but a change from this tradition will demand further amendments in other areas and this will question the innerancy of their doctrines.So what is in play here is nothing but pride and prejudice and an attempt to protect a man made doctrine that now hold millions of people under siege ignorantly.

Well, it’s already been bashed that Catholics do not worship Mary. I’m intrigued to know what information is unexplainably sacred ( could this also refer to the word of God?). the church was set up with ordained ministerial priests to carry out certain roles. About questioning the Vatican’s decisions – it is written the it is the Church the is the foundation and Pillar of truth.

Yes the bible said honour your parents so your days on earth would be lenghtened,the NT also confirms this.But it becomes practically wrong to honour dead parents or bow down to their lifeless images.How do you honour your parents?,by simply obeying their commands and heedng their advices,and when you are of age you take care of their needs.If honouring exceeds this,then it becomes worship.Therefore in the way and manner the Catholics honour their Mary,it is much more than a worship. Let's look at these few definitions of worship and compare them to how the Catholics honour their Mary to see if there is any difference between their honoring and worshipping.We need bear in mind that we are talking about "Religious Devotional Honour" here,and not physical honours suggested in the 10 commandments.

1.To honor and love as a deity

2.Reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.

3.The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.

4.the act of showing respect and love for a god especially by praying with other people who believe in the same god.

5.The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.

Conclusively,I worshipped Mary as a Catholic because I did everything contained in the definitions above to Mary's image and the Catholics still do it today.infact as I am typing now,millions of Catholics are bowing down to graven images of Maria all around the world.Every Catholic Church compound has a sacred isolated region where gigantic Mary's image of any material stands and towers above every worshipper who "must" go in there,bow down his or her head either kneeling or standing and tell the image his problems,wishes or be thankful for a received favour.In addition to this,even non catholics all over the world make billions of dollars selling graven images of Maria to gullible Catholics who have been trained only to trust and obey.Every catholic adorn his compound and rooms with lots of graven images of Mary.I want any Catholic to dispute this,then ask any interested person to go to a catholic church compound and observe this.Now what greek words do you have for bowing and kneeling to graven images of Maria?.How does this relate to the early church which you falsely claim to have established?.What about the apparitions of Mary?,does it have any corrolation with the early church?.A catholic clergy once advised a woman diagnosed with Cancer not to receive treatment because Mary has shown her a concotion to treat her,this woman died drinking the concotion.I once had brake failure while driving,as I was contemplating where to steer my car,I and my mom rather than calling Jesus' name for safety were seriously calling on mother mother,a resultant effect of indoctrination and cajole.Thank God we have finally realised the truth as is written in the book of Mathew 4:12.

Catholics do these – Latria ( Worship/ Adoration due to the Trinity alone; Dulia ( honour due to Mary and the other saints) – Can get into specifics later. There is what is called marian Devotion, and other saints devotion;which is just a way of people praying together with their chosen saint. This is not complusory.

The mass exodus of congregants out of Catholic border mostly around Mary and her goddess role.So many names including the Charismatic renewal has cropped up and grown out of this faith all in an effort to redress abnormalities made right by human inteligence.As glaring as this dogmatism looks,Catholic priests are so tenacious holding firm to it because of the pecuniary interest involved.I know of a young boy in my town who was forced by his parents to become a catholic priest so he could help enrich the family.

As mentioned before you will find many non catholics coming home to the fullness of the truth in the CC after foinding out that they require authority for what they teaching, professing. What makes you believe in the bible, why not any of the other holy books?

That strategy worked and today the parents are truly rich because they were able to maximise the funds they received from the boy by setting themselves up with a lucrative business.But is God mocked?.The seminary is nothing to write home about as well over 60% of students become gay men before their final year.

Will be interested to know where you got your figures from. Having said that the CC is full of sinners, so it is possible some might come out to be gay just as in any other denomination.

The so called Sisters sleep around with men in secret and in some cases with fathers themselves.if you can promise and swear to a sister that you won't leak the secret,she becomes yours.Masturbation is encouraged and so many other vices.All these atrocities is the singular reason why purgatory is promoted because they falsely teach it will wash away all sins.It is also the major reason why bible is distorted and always quoted out of context without any meaningful points made in tandem to subject matters.The easiest escape route of a catholic when faced with reality is to ask if the bible contain everything that happened in bible time.it becomes so astonishing hearing some who calls himself a follower of christ ask such question.While it looks so smart to them,they foolishly forget that it is not for any body to add nor subtract,or at least they should present to us one that contains everything and revolve around their belief.Instead all we hear them quote is text books and literatures just anybody could come up with in a few seconds and make it God's ordinances.when asked why he is quoting from textbook and literatures,he would tell you christians bible is not complete or have been tamered with.

Ok you’re really getting into sentiments here. Yes, there are sinners in the church and may be true that some religious commit sins, this is not exclusive to the CC. We can discuss the teaching of purgatory later in a different thread.

Bottom line is;you bow and kneel before images of Maria and believe in God by faith.You build special structures/houses for Mary's image where you actually go to worship.You give frivolous reasons for honouring Mary in your own language,what reasons do you have for asking carcasses you call saints to pray for you also?.Where is the position of Jesus in your faith?. What meanings does the teachings of Christ have in your faith?.Why do you refuse to obey him but rather evolve your own doctrine?.Or is jesus' activities as is recorded in the bible also corrupted?.What practices in Catholic today are in alignment with the early church?. Please seek the truth according to jesus and it shall set all of you free.

I’ll truly urge you to look into what the CC teaches (catechism available online for free) and go back to Mass to see what happens. There have been many like you who went away but end up coming back. God bless

Surely there are other nigerians who can run for President? Buhari has had his time and needs to leave the stage for others.

OLAADEGBU:
The same God that gave Mary grace has given it to us all. Have you received it?

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works" (Titus 2:11-14)

I most certainly have received it and continue to cooperate with this grace by working out my salvation with fear and trembling as per Philipians 2:12>>>

It still remains that Mary was immaculately conceived in order to carry our Lord Jesus. I believe in church's teaching that defined this as it was guided by the Holy spirit just as the Holy spirit guided the authors of the books of the bible.

OLAADEGBU:
Mary should have remembered that Jesus' mission was not to meet temporal social needs and certainly not to encourage sinful behaviour as she wanted more wine for the guests. The lesson you should take from Mary is that you should "Do whatever Jesus says."

Are you being serious bro? - This is heresy - You're implying that Jesus encouraged sinful behaviour by turning Water into wine!! In any case alcohol drinking is a topic for another day ( I can infer that you're one of those against alcohol). The wedding of Cana is recorded within John's Gospel and you failed to recognise the whole context - Please read John's concluding words in John 2:11 - What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him. I mentioned before that there are deeper meanings to the miracles Jesus performed but you choose to state that Mary encouraged sin!!
If you're a pastor, I hope you're not teaching your congregation this big error.

freeradical:
I am very afraid for the church at this time. I don't subscribe to the kid glove approach the vatican is giving to the issue of homosexuality. The church does not need to tone down on the language it uses to qualify gays and their practices. I feel more uncomfortable with the way western media are buzzing about an impending change in catholic doctrine to welcome gays. I pray that doesn't happen. We do not need to go against God's law because we want to make the Church more acceptable to sinners.

We all should pray earnestly for the holy spirit to guide the Church @ this trying time. I fear for the vatican!

The holy spirit will always guide the church.Jesus said the gates of hell shall not prevail against it and we believe it.the church has always gone through testing times e.g. antipopes, reformation,contraception acceptance by other denominations etc but the church has always stood tall and stuck with its Orthodox teachings.have no fear,let's continue to pray for our bishops and Priests.

alliednetw:
Oga.
Which xtian leaders did the acceptance?At what Council? When?Specific answers will help us arrive at truth.
Consider that each book was written as a single doc in diff places,times. Many Apostles & their succesors never saw/read most of these writings.Paul's letters were written to different communities. Most had no access to that of others.
Names of persons/places wil help

I eagerly await a response to this one

OLAADEGBU:
Neither Gen 3:15 nor angel Gabriel's proclamation say that Mary was immaculately born.

just as you believe that the holy spirit inspired the author of genesis, I believe the holy spirit inspired the church to give the correct interpretation of the passage. Also if you go to the Greek of angel Gabriel's proclamation it is interpreted -hail, full of grace. At what point do you think this was done?

OLAADEGBU:
If you knew what Jesus' mission was here on earth you will not be saying that miraculously creating wine in a wedding was one of them. Many folks have misconstrued the type of wine and ended up a sot.

Bros,bros, so what was the use of any of the miracles Jesus performed going by your logic?why did he multiply the loaves and fish,raise the dead etc?there is deeper meaning to these actions but sola scriptura lenses with no historical context robs its adherents of the full picture of the gospel. All because you're trying to belittle Mary's intercessory role you resort to downplaying Jesus' 1st miracle!!!

Ubenedictus:
This is the mid synodal document, it is purposely ambigous. It can be read both ways and i had a hard time determining whether it is simply pastoral care or if there is something lurking under.

www.zenit.org/en/articles/synod14-full-text-of-relatio-post-disceptationem


i am really grateful this isn't the final document, if it were...i would be having a real interpretation problem.

May the holy spirit continue to guide the synod as it discuses these family issues.
Unfortunately western media has picked up on the notes on welcoming homosexual persons and taken this as a gradual change in doctrine.
the document does make it clear that while its worth giving a better welcome to gays. this will not compromise established teaching.

sheunfemix:
There is just too much dirt associated with the Catholic church. A church that embraces same sex marriage, why on earth should u want to continue in their doctrine. The church that has so much of satanic stories attached to it should be totally ignored. Darkness has nothing to do with light they are entirely separate. And until we christians come together as one in union our churches will not grow. Ever wondered why the muslims are growing so vast? They have a certain oneness that christians lack and if we don't open our hearts to the truth and follow Christ as a perfect example, not our Pastors or Bishops but Christ the muslims will constantly be a thorn in our flesh. Go directly to Christ, He tore the veil already leaving a clear path

Please help us and do a bit of study. What church do you think has been at the western governments' throats trying to get them not to redefine marriage to include same sex unions? It is because it is one catholic church that it can do that. While the initial reformers might have had good intentions all they ended up doing was causing confusion in Christianity. The evidence is there for you today.- 1 catholic church, thousands of protestant denomination with no unity.

English language has developed over time and continues to pull in new words.if this colloquial use in naija is kept up with and we become more important in the world the words might just become accepted generally.

I think some people still say - in case of incasity (for necessity.)

In india words like lakh and crore are accepted as part of numbering in english.they also use the Word 'updation'.

donkennedy005:
Bro whether you like it or not Catholic church is an antichrist church. They started it right from Nicene changing all bible doctrines to their test.

Bro whether you like it or not your history is way off.so this antichrist church compiled the bible after Nicene but you believe in the bible?!

OLAADEGBU:
I can give you Scriptures that confirms that our Lord Jesus never sinned but can you provide one biblical reference that says Mary or any other person never sinned?

Please try to address the points raised. Are there exceptions to the use of ALL?a while ago I gave you gen 3.15 as the basis of immaculate conception. Also,the angel Gabriel called Mary full of grace.

OLAADEGBU:
Did you realise the tone of language our Lord Jesus used on Mary? He said to her:



Jesus' mission was to do His Father's will, which was to seek and save His people from their sins but Mary was just interested in meeting questionable needs such as asking for more wine.

this is clutching at the thinnest of straws just to discredit the whole occurrence. So this was a questionable need but was recorded as our Lord's 1st miracle.! So No significance in providing a better wine than what had just run out?no significance in the words -do whatever he tells you? I think you need to read the verses in a wider context. It wasn't recorded that he refused to carry out the miracle so you have no point.

OLAADEGBU:
What happened to the scripture that says "All have sinned and have come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23? Are you saying that the Bible is wrong?

Bros please check out the following - Matt 3:5-6 People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. 6 Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. - Did all of Judea go to River Jordan?

Matt 2:3 - When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him. - Was all Jerusalem troubled with Herod on the birth of Jesus?

Romans 15:14 - And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another. - really all knowledge?

From these verses and several others, it shows that the use of 'all' gives room for exceptions. The word is used referring to a collective, a generality.

Also, how about Zechariah and his wife in Luke 1: 5> who observed all the commandments without blame?

Will you also say that Jesus who was fully man also sinned?

OLAADEGBU:
Can you mention any other "intercession" that Mary made after Jesus had rebuked her?

I see you like to emphasise that Jesus rebuked Mary - again your own interpretation! Not every miracle was recorded in the bible. It's amazing how you do not acknowledge the intercession/miracle that was recorded but expect to see further intercessions. How wonder how many intercessions will suffice?

OLAADEGBU:
What did Jesus mean when He said it was not His time yet?

it certainly didn't mean not doing temporary ephemeral things as per your interpretation because I wonder why he carried out any miracles at all.
How about this,he didn't want to reveal himself but he still went ahead to do a miracle after Mary's intercession. What do you say to this?

OLAADEGBU:
There's nothing like immaculate conception, it did not happen.

I wonder where you get the confidence to say this or the proof?do you know it was the same guys who told us about Jesus who also told us this?
. Do you know there are groups that believe the Jesus story was fabricated or exaggerated?what gives you the assurance that it's true?

dein77: It's a welcome idea. I thought the Minister had either seen it on my Facebook wall or someone who saw it had told her.
I made a serious case for the cancellation of the exercise two weekends ago, after I was told at AGOFURE Motors in Warri that I wouldn't be travelling till after 10 am because sanitation exercise was in place.
It's archaic and dumb to have such a policy in place. It may have worked during the Buhari/Idiagbon era when it was conceived, but we have moved on, and so.should our policies.
It's very old fashioned to bring a nation/state to a standstill for 3 hours once in a month for Environmental sanitation. Environmental sanitation is an everyday exercise.
Apart from some khaki guys mounting roadblocks here and there isn't much happening on these days.
It also encourages environmental abuse, as people indiscriminately litter their environment and then wait till a month's time when another . exercise takes place.
Federal and state ministries of Environment should collabo and train and equip environmental health officers who should go about to monitor our environment, and ensure appropriate sanctions are levied against offenders.
This exercise is long overdue for abolishment.

I agree,it makes you wonder how much the economy is affected by the standstill. As mentioned by a few posters, cleaning of public space,gutters etc is the responsibility of LG and should be on a daily basis. people can be educated in different ways to keep inner surroundings clean. It'll certainly help if there's a proper waste management system in place.

[quote author=OLAADEGBU]

When was the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures published, 4th century by the RCC?

Not sure what your point is here. Please explain. If this is to do with the deuterocanonicals, I'm sure you're aware that the Jews did not accept the NT.

Neither Jesus nor His Apostles quoted from the apocrypal and the fact that one quotes a prophecy does not mean quoting from a book. The OT books do not contradict the NT they complement each other. This cannot be said for the books you added in between the OT and NT.

If this is how you judge what books are supposed to be in the OT, how come the following books are in the OT: Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon. I don't believe these were quoted from?
As I mentioned before, some books quoted from didn't even make it into the OT. So your point is not valid

The list I posted there shows the pagan origin of your traditions which is not congruent with the Scriptures.

This is entirely your opinion and there are reasons for traditions. Just so you know, your tradition of sola scriptura (which is the basis of your beliefs and arguments) is not taught anywhere and is a concept that stems from Martin Luther in the 16th century.
Teachings have been passed down via sacred tradition and the Church in its position as the pillar & foundation of truth has decided what is part of the christian faith.
Please can you let us know why you believe in the bible because this also came about via catholic tradition. Some groups will actually tell you that they are fables and like the pagan origin ( please be sincere in your response)

You need the Holy Spirit who breathed the Scriptures into existence not your tradition of men for the interpretation of the Scriptures. The Scriptures are God breathed.

Please let us know how the Holy spirit did this, because by your statement it appears the bible suddenly appeared out of thin air. Again, endeavour to give a considered response. A lot of your responses have not been deep at all.

When your will becomes the will of God you will know whether the doctrines are of God or not. You will not have to depend on faulty human traditions.

To some extent this is true, however, please let me know how you know what books constitute the bible from your your will becoming the "will of God". I can inform you with all certainty that you're operating within a particular tradition - whatever you've heard throughout your time in church or with peers.

So the CC has been teaching something for 2000 years and says this is the case but you need us to believe your “will of God” that comes 2000 years later. Don’t you think this is what’s caused the innumerable number of denominations today - everyone thinking they know the doctrines via sola scriptura?

There is no institution that doesn't require a visible head and governing body even with established laws, constitution, terms & conditions, procedures etc. They tell you what the procedures are, they interpret in light of circumstances and ongoing events, otherwise what you get is anarchy. From your responses, it appears christianity is supposed to be by anarchy? Please let me know how the early church functioned without a complete set of scriptures, how did they know what the correct doctrine was?

Good morning all and wishing you a happy Sunday. Please may we continue to have our priests and bishops in our prayers as we learn that the bishop of Arundel & Brighton UK has resigned after been unfaithful to his priestly promises. We pray for strength and fortitude as they carry on their priestly vocation.

Parents mainly but schools also have a role especially with the science. My only concern is with the non-faith schools abroad; due to what seems like an aggressive alternative lifestyle agenda, topics like homosexuality, sex change and use of contraception (instead of promoting abstinence) will become the norm. This will slowly erode the innocence of these kids.

The list is not going anywhere until you adequately address it. You are yet to answer the question of when the OT canon was compiled/declared. The divine Godhead, nature of Jesus and the Easter (the passover feast) is clear written and implied throughout the Holy Scriptures unless you are saying that the Roman catholic church added it there.

The protestant bible (OT) is not complete so I don’t know what point you’re trying to prove, the canon was published in the late 4th century and formally declared in the 16th at the Council of Trent (after protestant challenge). I’ve mooted the point of going with the Jews rejection of the NT if you’re concerned about the deuterocanonicals.
It’s amazes me that you think these articles of faith are clear in scriptures when there were debates/ heresies for centuries. This is why it needed the church to declare what the true faith is. Just as in Acts 15.

You can deny the obvious all you want that wouldn't change the fact. Can you show us from Scripture where our Lord Jesus Christ instituted the Mass? I'm curious to know. And what did you add in between your Old and NT bibles? Did our Lord Jesus and His apostles quote from them? Don't tell me about the so called fathers, I need to know where the Lord Jesus Christ and the Apostles quoted from your so called books added after Malachi?

The bible does not contain everything Jesus said or did nor is there anyway you can prove your sola scriptura from the bible. You can get an idea of the church set up by looking at how the faith was practiced in the early days. It certainly was not sola Scriptura or protestant worship.
Your point about quotes from the apostles – this point is not valid as it appears Jude quoted from the book of Enoch that didn’t end up in the bible, also our Lord Jesus talked about moses’ seat in Matt 23 - would you mind showing me where this came from because you won’t find this in the OT.
However, please check out Hebrews 11:35 which refers to an event in 2 Maccabees 7.

If you cannot substantiate your church dogmas from the Apostles' teaching then it should be done away with.

The church was giving the authority to bind and lose and that's what it's been doing through antiquity to date – We’ve been over this, you can question our Lord Jesus if you disagree.

The Bible has all I need for Christian doctrine.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

[/quote]This passage is often used as prove of sola scriptura but is very wrong. Firstly, it says scripture is profitable not all sufficient.

Secondly from your logic I also read from the bible that perseverance is all I need to be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing ( James 1:4). This is why you need the totality of church authority to make decisions, some sect might wake up tomorrow saying , you see it says it in the bible that all you need is perseverance!!

Thirdly, the passage you quote is taken well out of context – because the previous verses also talk about Timothy continuing in the things he has learnt from whom he had learned them and also scriptures which at this point would have been the OT.


How do you know that we should follow the bible and the bible alone? In your view who makes the decision when there is misinterpretation and opposing views on articles of christian faith?

OLAADEGBU: Here are just a few examples of the continual evolution of pagan practices brought into the Roman Catholic Church, starting in 310 A.D.:



http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n2042.cfm

Lol hysterically! So you rehashed this list again. I've seen it in several threads, 1 or 2 by you as well.
Firstly, I see that you have omitted the following: the compilation/declaration of the bible canon, the teaching on the trinity, observation of Easter,nature of Jesus Christ which all came after the 3rd Century.

Secondly, the majority of your list is just plain false - the CC does not worship Mary, Images, relics,saints. The mass was instituted by Jesus and through apostolic tradition. There is no apocrypha in the bible , the deutero canonicals were declared as part of the bible canon. You may wish to go with the Jews who only accept the OT. Apostolic tradition not Roman tradition - you might want to question Paul in 2 Thess 2.
By the way I'm sure you know there are Eastern rites within the CC and not just roman catholic e.g- Syro Malabar.

A number of the things on there are not even dogma but church discipline matters which could be changed if necessary - e.g. latin, celibacy, robes. I'm not going to waste time going through absolutely everything because there are untruths there. The dogmas that are right were defined as part of the Church's Authority

Did you ever read the essay on the development of Christian doctrine[b][/b] that I recommended?

SalC: Welcome to all the newbies in the house, ..... It's nice to have you home, feel free here and contribute, pray, advice, ask questions, chat, encourage...just name it! We learn from one another. May God bless you abundantly

Once again welcome, vest, Lordnammy, jenoncam, modestdude , polkabluedot, wonda26, btoks, Tuneller, Frankysnow, exxell, clemigho, livebullet, have fun staying with us

Thanks, I've been a keen observer for a few years, rarely commented until recently when I got fed up with the continuous false anti catholic statements from the usuals. It amazes me how they continue to defend sola scriptura when the concept itself cannot be proven from the bible. My fear is really for those catholics not too strong in their faith who get swayed by the comments of these people.

Nice thread, I'll endeavour to pop in as and when I can.
God bless

OLAADEGBU: I'll advise you to read up on my thread on the origin of the Roman catholic church. There you will find out that there was no apostolic succession from the apostles to the RCC. Below is an excerpt from the thread:



https://www.nairaland.com/1878872/what-origin-catholic-church

Your claims were debunked in that thread and I’ll say, this is a big claim you’ve got here and you know that your copied write up is no prove of this. Unfortunately it goes against recorded history. Even the Eastern Orthodox Church believe the CC has Apostolic Succession.

This goes back to what church Irenaeus was referring to in Against Heresies, what church ignatius was referring to? and where is that church is today? In a previous post, I gave an analogy of an adult and his baby self - would you say these two are different people because they appear different?

You raised a number of practices you believe are specifc to the CC and not in the NT. Unfortunately with sola scriptura lenses you're very limited in understanding Christian history. If you’re into reading (you should be if you want to be an apologetic), I’ll suggest a book by John Henry Newman (convert to CC in 19th Cent.) An essay on the development of Christian Doctrine (you can get a free e-book on the internet). It explains how the seeds of our christian faith eventually blossomed through history with better understanding. This intelligent guy was also the one who said "to be deep in history is to cease to be protestant"

I won’t paste all the church fathers writings here as you never address them when posted.
Once again, please remember that the bible was written for the church not the other way round.

OLAADEGBU: What then is the difference with those who worship their "men of god"? Chris Oyakhilome sees himself as infallible, that he cannot sin against God and his followers believe him. Don't you also see your Pope as infallible? Should we obey man instead of God? Let the Holy Spirit, who is the author of the Scriptures guide you into the truth.

The big difference is that the church was set up by Jesus who gave guarantee to the apostles that it won’t go into error, the gates of hell shall not prevail against it . He was going to send the Holy Spirit to guide it. You see an example when Peter (with all his personal faults) declared a teaching on Circumcision with no scriptural precedent (Acts 15 ) The papal Inf. is not to do with personal behaviour but a guarantee that the pope will not teach error in matters of faith and morals, when stated ex cathedra (i.e. when stated as a teaching to the whole church).

Churches like Chris O’s were set up 2 millennia after the church with no apostolic succession. The early church was so concerned about being part of the true church that the only way to determine this was to work out whether you had apostolic succession.

I very much doubt that it is the Holy spirit that has led to thousands of different churches with differing doctrine while all claiming adherence to Sola Scriptura. When you go to the big issues like Justification, Eucharist, nature of Christ, Trinity, Sabbath, Sin, Grace, Baptism, Marriage etc. All these churches teach different things. Whilst there are elements of truth in most denominations there is always a need for a guide. Jesus gave this to the church ( the church is guided by the holy spirit) - Jesus said, whoever hears you, hears me>>>> Luke 10:16

OLAADEGBU: Whenever the church fathers depart from what the apostles recorded in Scriptures who do you think we should obey?

In any case, we obey the Church ( The bishops in communion with the pope), they are the ones who bind and loose, ratify decisions in councils etc. E.g. Tertullian and Origen once towed the line of the church but once their later views started going against established tradition, the views were deemed heretical and not accepted by the church.
The fact is anyone could read the scriptures and have differing personal views ( this is what happens with the sola scriptura), this is why a guide is required to confirm what the true faith is. It is the church that is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Ukutsgp: u hv nt answered my question. who took d photograph of Jesus at that time including that of mary?

Obviously pictures couldn't have been taken in those days. The statues and icons are equivalent to present day photographs. As suggested try visiting some of the old cathedrals and museums and your faith will truly be alive.

Ubenedictus: probably because the bible wasn't written in english but in greek.

And the greek word for untill doesn't mean d same thing as the english.

yes o,I've tried to explain in simple English to these guys but been hell bent on sola scriptura 2000 years later they never understand.

Ukutsgp: after d birth of Jesus they had sex and she was blessed with other children. why is dis difficult for u to comprehend?

Dude, it does not say this in the bible, this is your own interpretation. I notice you've ignored my points and questions but expect me to comprehend your assertions. Will look forward to your considered response otherwise I'm out, peace.