Ken4Christ:


How can you cause someone to stumble when you take wine? If a new member of your church who is already addicted to wine comes to you for counselling on how he could free himself from that addiction. Then he sees you with one bottle of alcohol on your table, he will certainly will be embolden to continue. And it is worse if you are a Pastor he was looking up to.

Awesome study. I see you found amongst those expressions, "not given to wine" (alcohol in that context). You also found the use of "excess of wine," "not given to much wine."

The word, "given" there is word that relates to a habit. See... It's a word for craving. That's instructive.

Now, the use of "much wine," "excess wine," etc. was not a license for the church to indulge the appetite with alcohol. That's been a common beer parlor justification.

Wear your thinking cap, Jesus condemns drunkenness. His Apostles did same. And it's unquestionable. Hence, their use of "not given much wine," cannot mean "given to small wine."

In 1Tim 3:3 and Titus 1:7, He outrightly says "not given to wine." In other words, he doesn't have an habit of taking alcohol. No use of much or excess.

Therefore, there are times we refrain from exercising our liberty for the sake of the weaker brethren in our midst.

“Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.” (1 Corinthians 8:13).

If you read the context of this portion, it has nothing to do with alcohol. You are reading your mind into it. It had to do with food offered to idols. Full stop. And why? The answer is in verses 4 to 6. There's nothing like an idol. Jesus Christ rules over them all. So that "liberty" is theological one. It's an exercise of dominion over idols.

Alcohol isn't part of this liberty o. 🤣 Alcohol? Liberty ke?

Now see my main point again: I don't encourage believers to indulge their appetite with alcohol. The Apostles didn't. Why?

1. Drunkenness which comes from taking alcohol is sin. And being GIVEN TO alcohol begins with taking a bottle for fun.

If I want to help a believer live without worries of falling into alcohol addiction (as the point you even made), I would teach staying clear! Why? Drunkenness and being given to drinking are lurking.

2. There is no Biblical measure of the amount of alcohol that will get you drunk. You can use alcohol. To cook. To make medicine. But drinking is to indulge your appetite for it.

There is no saying how much of it you'll take to get drunk. Some would be drunk after a cup. Some, after a bottle.


CONCLUSION: Let's shelve this beer parlour justifications and do better things. No godly pastor would infer in his teachings that christians who don't take alcohol can go ahead to try it out.

That's where a christian should be. We are not unbelievers who glorify our flesh that much.

MaxInDHouse:


I'm not your brother but your neighbour and i do drink my alcoholic beverages responsibly just as Jesus did it's Pharisees like you that are trying to add to what God said by accusing the faultless yet we are better than you in doing God's will! Luke 7:31-35

Ok, my guy. More beer to your table! 🤜🤛

MaxInDHouse:


So you lied against God's only begotten Son!



Next time don't just assume whatever your pastors told you are from Jesus of Nazareth most times they often teach doctrine of men! Matthew 15:7-9

Go and freely drink your burukutu brother. Don't mind me jare.

Ken4Christ:


I can take alcohol and not get drunk because I have the spirit of self control.

Courting with a lady you love that is not yet your wife can also tempt you to fornicate. If it doesn't, why do we here stories of women getting pregnant before marriage even in the church.

I carefully read all you typed. Please, read this too line by line. Don't skim through.

This is a fallacy of false equivalence. Its basic logic! This scenario doesn't align with the scenario of taking alcohol.

Indulging your appetite with alcohol isn't necessary for anything in life. It's not courtship. It's not eating. It's not sleeping. It's not central to normal life. Biko Why this forced uneven equivalence?

Also, self-control is to stay away from it. If I can't control my appetite to stay away, one bottle may become two. On a day you feel down, it could become a crate. Especially in this age of abundance of alcohol.

So, it's Christian practice to self control from the fanaticism about alcohol.

Temptation is not in drinking alone. Even looking at a woman can cause you to sin. So, will you pluck your eyes off?

This your constant repetition of this woman woman has me concerned. Are you really battling lust?

I sure know that we are not under the Law but the Law of Moses never gave unrighteous instructions. The scripture says that the Law is holy. So even the instruction to purchase strong drink was a holy one.

This theology is disturbing! I guess Jesus didn't know this when He constantly flouted the ordinances of Moses.

Pause, open your Bible, go read the story of Jesus' stance in the first few chapters of John 8. Read the first few chapters of Matt 19 (to verse 6). I could send more, but you may be impatient.

Now, see this:

Galatians 5:4
[4]Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Galatians 2:19,21
[19]For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
[21]I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

1 Timothy 1:9-10
[9]Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
[10]For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Note also that Paul writes that practicing an aspect of the law as a justification from the law (i.e. circumcisions) is to be a debtor to the whole law. Galatians 5:3

Anyone with a wholesome knowledge of the Bible knows that the law wasn't written to you. You LITERALLY cannot cherrypick ordinances of the law that justify your obsession or lust whilst leaving the rest.

Abi should buying slaves because the law of Moses permits it? Or I should utterly destroy enemies that oppose God because the law permits it. There's a reason why Jesus and then His Apostles were hated by those Jews. And there's a reason why the early believers were called CHRISTians.

Shelve your activism for alcohol for a sec. Wear thinking caps.

The difference between those under grace is that we have the ability to put the flesh under control.

Well, the singular difference is this:
Romans 6:14
[14]For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

It's not hard to see that grace and law don't mix. You are not a disk jockey that will mix some part of the law that justifies your appetite with some parts of grace that suits you.

The law had its purpose; that purpose was to lead the ancient Israelites in the times they were and in the unrefined culture they lived in to grace. All the ordinances had symbolic meanings that aren't for us. This includes that one verse you're using to justify your alcohol. Read.


Galatians 3:24-25
[24]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[25]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


You see why, if you want to follow the school master that is done away with, you are a DEBTOR to do all. You can't seek justifications from the law. That makes you a debtor for all the law. You choose a part.


2 Corinthians 3:13-15
[13]And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
[14]But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
[15]But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.


You see. You can't cherrypick the law, especially the ordinances.

Even in the letters of Paul to the churches, he never said that they should never take wine. Are you greater than Paul?

Paul need not write everything explicitly. For instance, he didn't wrote to Timothy to flee youthful lusts (in 2Tim 2). The word he used was "epithumia." it's a Greek word also often used by Plato. It means "an unhealthy longing." It's an expression that has to do with appetite. So, he needs not tell Timothy not to fornicate or to use porn. That covers it.

Is alcoholism an unhealthy longing?
Answer that. Can a bottle spring to two bottles and more?
Do you stand a chance of drunkenness or getting attached to alcoholism when you indulge your appetite with alcohol.

Now Paul severely warned against drunkenness. Jesus did, too.

Paul only said, do not drink wine in excess. Please, renew your mind and stop making dogmas doctrines.

Dogma is a philosophical term that connote unreasoned beliefs that are strongly held to. They have no basis.

Here's a simple reasoning against alcoholism for a Christian.

If I would flee sin, I would practice not indulging my appetite with anything that may lead me to sin. Especially when the thing is not a necessity and has no important connection with my existence.

So many believers out of devotion to God don't indulge their appetite with alcohol. Drinking is where drunkenness starts from. Why not avoid drinking which you can?


Caveat: If you drink, I am not condemning you. This thread, written years ago, wasn't for that purpose at all. But the ideal Christian conduct is to be clean from such indulgence.

I don't know why this is raising much dust!

MaxInDHouse:


It's time to start lying again God's Son!

Oya quote where Jesus spoke against drinking alcoholic beverages!

Wo! 🥱 Go and be drinking your buzz jare. Shelve this infantile hide and seek.

Ken4Christ:


I never said drunkenness is inferred as a sin, I said drinking. And there is a marked difference between both.

Fornication is a sin also. Does it mean you will not date or get close to the opposite sex because you don't want to fornicate?

First, google "fallacy of false equivalence."

Dating, btw, isn't a Bible practice. Let's say courting. Courting or speaking with a woman on nothing sexual or lustful is will in no way lead you to fornication.

But taking alcohol would. It's like tempting yourself... If the Bible calls drunkenness (intoxication) sin, I want to flee indulging my appetite with alcohol in its totality.

The argument is in the same direction. Stop defending doctrines of Old that is not backed up by scripture. After all, under the Old Testament, the Jews were instructed to use their money to buy strong drink and make merry in a yearly feast they organize. And that God of Israel is still our God today.

Under the OT, the Jews were instructed to offer burnt offerings, to not shape their hair, to kill children that insult their parents, to kill/banish fornicators or adulterers, etc.

Don't cherrypick Bible verses. If you want to live by the law, let's know you want to.

Here's the simple point. Think through it. If alcohol is what leads to drunkenness, why should I practice indulging my appetite with it? Is it compulsory to take it? Is it necessary? Is it important? And cant it cause you to stumble (figuratively and literally, yes).

As a personal devotion to God and to His word, many Christians don't take it. And that's the ideal, virtuous mindset.

Aemmyjah:



Paul did not say product of the grape. He said wine
Alcohol has medicinal purposes too

For me, I drink responsibly 1
I don't drink beer, cos I don't like the sour taste of it and people you pass will easily know but I don't criticize anyone who does it. I cherish the taste of palmwine. Still, I drink responsibly 🍷

Correct! Feel free to drink jare. You can add more bottles sef. Don't force the Bible into your narrative.

BTW, do you know fresh palmwine is unfermented and isn't alcoholic. Hope y'all know that?

MaxInDHouse:


So when did the God who commanded what is written there condemned alcoholic beverages or sent anyone to condemn it?

Abi na. The same God who commanded the jews not to stone the woman caught in adultery.

If you would follow the laws, why not follow all please.

Jesus spoke against drunkenness. Moses' laws didn't. We are called Christians not for following Jewish laws, but the teachings of Christ and His Apostles. The OT is only relevant within the scope of their teachings.

I thought this was basic though.

MaxInDHouse:


You may then spend the money on whatever you desire—cattle, sheep, goats, wine and other alcoholic beverages, and anything you please; and you will eat there before Jehovah your God and rejoice, you and your household! Deuteronomy 14:26

Please quote this verse in the Bible version you just used!

Eh ehn. Was that written to you? Na wa o. Why not read the totality of Deuteronomy na.

Burnt offerings, fruit tithing, capital punishments. 🤣 As per na you be ancient near Eastern jews

Aemmyjah:




1 Timothy 5:23
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.

What kind of wine is used for stomach upset? Alcoholic or non alcoholic?
Bible does not teaches abstinence from wine 😉

🤣 Paul wrote wine. You saw alcohol. Una get issues o. 🤣🥱

That literally was "fruit of the vine (grape)" which was prevalent in Paul's time and in Ephesus where Timothy to whom he wrote was. Simple, honest research should be saving you guys' these embarrassment, but una sha wan justify una alcoholism.

Sorry o, no be for this Bible. I left a screenshot for you.

Galatians 5:19-21
[19]Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
[20]Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
[21]Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Even with this una obsession with defending taking alcohol, we can already infer drunkenness. If you feel you should start to search up and down to defend your appetite for beer, that's not so different from the man in the beer palor drinking to "satisfaction."

Again, if I would not be drunken, I would not drink. The journey to being drunken is to indulge my appetite with alcohol.

Aemmyjah:


I am not supporting your fanatical ideas either

Shebi you've been rooting for alcohol all over this thread. I give you the full approval as the OP. Go on soun with your bear and azul jare.

Thread closed biko!

Aemmyjah:


Why then did Paul ask Timothy to drink it?
Will you use same analogy regarding talking to the opposite sex?


Ecclesiastes 9:7
Go, eat your food with rejoicing, and drink your wine with a cheerful heart, for already the true God has found pleasure in your works.

One fruitage of the spirit is self control
Only those who can't control their drinking habits should avoid alcoholic beverages

Feel free jare. Go and drink your drink with self-control.

Aemmyjah:


An Olodo will write an entire epistle that makes no sense and shift goalpost
You mentioned forex, palmwine, sex, fufu, prayer points
Oga
Answer my question
Which wine makes people drunk or intoxicated and why did the chief guest say that when he drank Jesus wine?

You're suffering from mental gymnastics
Visit Yaba asap

Na on top this alcohol matter you dey throw all these tirades at him abi something else?

Don't mind him my guy, dey shayo dey go. Go on soun with your palmy, Hennessey, even azul if your money reach. Notin do u.

Aemmyjah:


Too much alcohol causes drunkenness
Too much food causes gluttony

Bible is not against drinking or eating
Only excess is bad

You're constantly shifting the goal post because of this your alcohol activism. 🥱 Here comes your fallacy of false equivalence again.

The Bible is against greed as sin, not "excessive eating." There's nothing like that in scripture. (MAYBE you should do a search and come back). But the Bible is EXPLICITLY against drunkenness.

Come to think of it. You need food to survive. You don't need alcohol to survive. GOD knows. Otherwise, drunkenness won't be a sin (since He didn't give a measure).

Again, a devoted Christian won't be looking for a justification for alcoholism. He would stay clear. If alcohol can cause me to be drunken (and drunkenness is a sin), I would leave alcohol altogether. Right?

Ken4Christ:


I am not fighting a personal experience. I don't drink alcohol. I didn't even drink it when I was not yet saved. I am only correcting the wrong notion that drinking alcohol is sin. It's not in the Bible. It is not even inferred.

Are we back to square one?

Drunkenness isn't "interred" as a sin. It's comprehensively nailed as sin.

I would avoid alcohol then. Because it's what culminates drunkenness.

That's how a devoted Christian should think. That's the point. It's not about condemning anyone or self-righteousness, but devotion to God. Simple!

Why's this raising too much dust? Why should it? Is alcohol another god?

Ken4Christ:


It's a good counsel to tell people to avoid drinking alcohol. I agree with you. But don't condemn anyone who drinks it and didn't get drunk. This is my point. Our church fathers are not the standard for Christian living. It's the Bible.

You seem so fixated on this "not condemning" people who drink. Yet that has no bearing with this discussion. Feels like you're fighting a personal experience or something. Lol.

Well, the Bible doesn't even teach condemning any sinner, even fornicators, adulterers, etc. The godly thing is to restore them in love.

Ken4Christ:


We are saying the same thing. Yes drunkenness starts with a little drink. It's up to you to have self control. But you can't say someone has committed a sin because he drank alcohol. So, there is no where in the scripture where it says, don't drink alcoholic wine.

I don't drink it by habit. But I don't condemn someone who drinks it. Neither did the Bible condemns those who drink it. The issue is just a mindset thing. We have been taught by our church fathers that it's a sin to drink alcoholic drink but we never cared to search if it's so in the scripture.

Church fathers teaching you to stay off alcohol is not bad. Isn't it better to stay away if you can't tell how or when drunkenness may befall you?

Except you have a wild appetite, I don't get why anyone would be obsessed about searching out the Bible just to find justification for taking alcohol!

Here's the simple point: drunkenness starts with taking alcohol.
Is taking alcohol important to your existence?

Must you take alcohol to live your regular life?

Will you be okay if you stay off alcohol?

Do you stand a beter chance to avoid falling into the sin of drunkenness by avoiding alcohol altogether?

Answer all these in your mind. It's precise! It all boils down on level of personal devotion to God.

Leave story.

EreluRoz:
You are always welcome 🤗. I stopped liking you when I discovered you are a babydaddy.

Women please in all you do, never marry a babydaddy they'll always go back to sleep with the mother of their baby in the name of child care and visits just like Davido, tuface and others are doing. They'll stylishly trick you into polygamy against your wish while deceiving you with the married title. Be wise

How did you manage to turn a topic on football to relationship counsel?

Ken4Christ:


It still doesn't make it a sin. Even excess eating is sin. Does it mean you will not eat because you are afraid of eating excess?

The Bible is precise about drunkenness. Not "excess eating." Read the original post again.

You'd often find the expression "not given to wine" as an ideal Christian conduct. 1 Timothy 3:3.

Pay attention.
Here's the simple point: drunkenness starts with taking alcohol. Is taking alcohol important to your existence?
Must you take alcohol to live your regular life?
Will you be okay if you stay off alcohol?
Do you stand a beter chance to avoid falling into the sin of drunkenness by avoiding alcohol altogether?

Answer all these in your mind. It's precise! It all boils down on level of personal devotion to God.

MaxInDHouse:


Fornication and adultery starts with engaging a female stranger in discussion {John 4:7} so never talk to female strangers!

Fallacy of false equivalence (read up on it).

I think its high time govt made logic compulsory in all secondary schools.

Ken4Christ:


Drinking alcohol is not explicitly a sin. It is drunkenness that the Bible condemns just as you quoted.

There are however manners and ways you drink it that can cause someone to stumble.

Fair observation. And you're right. But drunkenness starts with drinking. And there's no measure for what measure makes drunken or what doesn't.

Hence, caution is to choose to never be given to it. We must choose to take the truth even if it's against our appetite or craving.

BBIA:


This is why the knowledge of philosophy is supposed to be a prerequisite to theology to avoid people like you picking up the bible, reading random verses that only suit you and interpreting it as you see fit to gullible folks.

This specialized education should be mandatory for all preachers and interpreters of the christian doctrine. something you obviously lack in this discipline.

You don't sound like someone grounded in any semblance of basic socratic elenchus, talk less of proper philosophy. What do you know in philosophy, please?

Apparently, you have no textual proof that I took any of the Bible text out of its original context. If you have any, put it to me. I dare you!

Abi na the holy spirit fall on you tell you this one too?

which denomination do you even attend?

Leave jamboree. Learn and move on. God does not serve your appetite.

BBIA:

wine has always been an alcoholic drink. it is called wine because it is made from fermented grape juice. check every resource available and it will state so.

The first thing about you is you're trying too hard to sound smart in an area you have nearly zero clarity. Nothing in the Greek etymology for wine, "oinos," indicated alcohol.

There is ancient word for juice from fruits (which is not a modern day invention). The closest to it is what Jesus used, "FRUIT of the vine." He literally used the word drink of this FRUIT...

Virtually every ancient resource that mentions "fruit of the vine" projects it as FRUIT. The greek submission there is "gennēma ampellos" which literally indicates "vine fruit." It's so precise! But you're incoherently trying to cook up a point from nothing.

non alcoholic wine became possible only in the late 1800’s when a dealcoholization method was first developed to remove alcohol from wine so that even people who don’t take alcohol could drink and the idea was business driven

For it to be wine, it must be first fermented grape juice.

Are you doing a skit here? There has always been non alcoholic wine or "light wine." Who taught you this bradadash??

First, there was such a thing as non fermented grape juice (referred to as 'grape fruit'; which is what Jesus took). See a quote on it from ancient Roman statesman, Cato: "If you wish to have must [grape juice] all year, put grape juice in an amphora and seal the cork with pitch; sink it in a fishpond. After thirty days take it out. It will be grape juice for a whole year"

It was called grape juice. In Jesus' words, it's"fruit of the vine. Some call it wine still. But it's unfermented!

You spew ignorance with such boldness! Are you just trying to be funny?

stop trying to defend your ignorance and learn.
Na your type the mislead people in the name of christianity with your own bias opinions.

Now, this baffles me so much.

Me that I am taking a Biblical anti-alcohol stance, I am the one misleading people?

You, the freely drink alcohol ambassador, you are the one teaching truth. And this truth is so important to you that you consider it the great commission, "go into the world and drink alcohol."

Man, like I said, there's no support for your drunkenness in the Bible. Read the thread again to begin with.

If you would be an alcoholic, don't build it on Bible doctrine. There's no place for it in the Bible.

BBIA:

Jesus broke bread and drank wine, how hard is it for you to comprehend that.

he turned water to wine too. that too you will try to modify to suit your own fanatic doctrine…


oya continue.

I normally wouldn't indulge. But this fallacy that "wine" has to be alcohol is disturbing.

Jesus called the wine He drank "fruit of the vine." Matthew 26:29. You know what a fruit of the vine is? The words literally mean fruit from vine (those little grapes). That is grape wine. Not Hennessy.

If you want yo drink alcohol, do so with your bold mind. Don't try to justify the indulgence with this fallacy. Please...

BBIA:


drinking alcohol and drunkenness are different things oga.


I am a christian and I know Jesus drank alcohol.

the last time was at the last supper.


I don’t know where you fanatics get your own doctrine coined from.


drinking alcohol has never been a sin before both God and man.

but drinking until drunk can lead you to sin and should be avoided.

Next time don’t come and embarrass yourself like this.

If you want to drink alcohol, free free to indulge yourself in your drinking and drunkenness.

It's either you lack a proper command of English language or you're just rude.

I am a "fanatic" (you know what that means??) for explicitly going through the scriptures in response to an error. But you trying to validate your drunkenness or "drinking" out of all is there is the ideal believer? How absurd!

Antipob777:
Fellow Nairalanders, join me thank God for this giant Rat I killed in my farm today.

Its indeed the Lords doing as meat is very expensive in the market now and God blessed I and my family with this giant Rat.

I am going home later in the day to do the needful on the Rat and use it to prepare a good Egusi soup.

Indeed what God cannot do does not exist.

My God is a miracle working God.

I blame nairaland mods for allowing just any junk on the fp.

You mean anyone can just go online and lift any picture and just build a lie around it to generate dilly attention.

Expanse2020:

Does it hurt you to hear the truth....

What truth? Have you typed any here?

epainos:
There is no need to curse each other because of a debate that has been unresolved for centuries. Even Aristotle wrote about it.

In most of the Bible verses that are subjected to debate, the word "oinos" was used. And the meaning is unfermented or femented grape. Because of this, scholars keep using ideas, assumptions, and scenarios to prove their stand. But in the real sense, no one can prove it or disprove.

Good luck!

Thank you. Not cussing, really. I could have indulged him/them with reasonable debates. But the robotically dogmatic nuisance they constitute is mind-blowing. Not one you can engage in a sane elenchus.

Imagine abruptly mentioning a six year old thread as though it was written yesterday. With no courtesy at all. Weird and sincerely baffling!

Expanse2020:

Most of these guys love to lie and do cover up
Let call a spade a spade...
Lying at this tender age when you Full become pastors nkọ...with uncontrollably lies

Funny thing is that people like you only go about seeking validation with pointless fruitless exchanges online on religious threads.

You have no concrete positive impact anywhere in real life. No desirable lifestyle. Just online noise that amounts to nothing.

Kobojunkie:
Yes, I am happily Jobless. But since when did it become a crime to be jobless or a reason to ignore the Truth of Jesus Christ to be proclaimed?

Your particular issue seems to be that your ego rejects the idea that you were wrong then and are probably even wrong now of the person of Jesus Christ. That is the only logical reason for these continuous attacks on my person instead of the message upto even this ment

Rest. Or keep mentioning if it helps you feel sane.

Ps: there's no attack on your person. You are the attack here. Anyone with some reasoning can see that you're being a silly nuisance here!

Kobojunkie:
Pointing out that contrary to the claims of the illogical, Jesus Christ — the same who later on told His followers that it is not what they eat that makes them unclean — ate and drank and was seen by even the Pharisees doing so, is fruitless argumentation? Yikes! I guess to you it is better to continue propagating lies against Jesus Christ instead.

I know you're jobless. But just stay off my threads and mentions, going forward...