₦airaland Forum

Katsumoto:
The problem with your position is that Nigeria doesn't have adequate fiscal and monetary policies. It is the job of the govt and Central Bank to draft flexible policies. At this point, there aren't any competent officials who can do that. You have to use an holistic approach when deciding on whether subsidies are necessary or not and if they are, where to apply them.

I don't disagree with most of this.

Most oil producers have policies in place to not only ease the burden on the populace but also to stimulate the economy. How many fuel shortages are in Saudi, Libya, Qatar, UAE, ETC? There is a problem in Nigeria and it is called corruption. Tackle that first while formulating a long term fiscal policy.

How much is a liter of petrol in those countries? How much do they spend subsidizing each liter of petrol? How much do they spend a year in fuel subsidies per year?

Are you sure you are making an apples and apples comparison, in short, before you conclude that the subsidies in Nigeria and Saudi (for example) are comparable, yet corruption happens only in the former but not the latter?

Are you aware that a $10 rise in petrol shaves .3% off the GDP of any country?

What does this mean in the Nigerian context? Rising price of a barrel of oil increases our GDP, doesn't decrease it.

And I don't think that stat (or something like it) is likely to apply to a fuel subsidy. If it does, please provide a reference.

ola olabiy:
All countries have these subsidy.

Oil subsidy, no. . . as I said, many countries in fact have heavy TAXES on oil.

Electricity subsidy, no.

You can't just leave things to market forces. They will spiral out of control.

What does this mean?

ola olabiy:
I wonder ooo

Eku is a bulldog capitalist in the garb of a real, tea party-attending repu.


He's only interested in those businesses he intends to invest in in Nigeria.

Funny dude  , I tell ya.

Hehe. Fiscally, I agree mostly with Republicans and Libertarians, yes. But on social issues, I'm more of a Democrat.

@Katsumoto:

1. I'm not sure that the subsidies are really working. Subsidized electricity in Nigeria has essentially killed most of the manufacturing in Nigeria, due to scarcity. So perversely, the electricity subsidy has done more harm than good in Nigeria since the 1980s. I don't know enough about the oil business to say that the same is true in Nigeria, but it very well might be.
2. Subsidies breed corruption.
3. I'm not advocating removing these subsidies instantaneously. You can do it slowly over a 10 year period or something.
4. Which wastages would you tackle first? Anyway, I'm not against keeping the subsidy. . . . just don't complain about fuel shortages, corruption in NNPC, oil profiteers, and lack of functional refineries. After all, it isn't as if these bad things happen in a bubble.

ola olabiy:
Also, if I may ask you, why can't the govt run refineries?

Why shouldn't it run the okada driver unions too? Restaurants? Bakeries? Construction companies? IT firms? Why shouldn't it run everything?

It isn't governments place to run most of these things; government is not a business. The more the government runs, the more corrupt Nigeria will be.

ola olabiy:
Why is it NOT easy for US farmers to divert thheir subsidized wheat?

I don't know off the top of my head. How exactly subsidies work in different countries and the impact it has tends to be complicated. Why don't you look into it and tell us?

For me, the way things should work:

1) I buy crude from Nigeria at market price
2) I sell my refined crude to the Nigerian government at market price
3) Nigerian government then decides to do whatever it wants with the refined, selling it out at subsidized rates if it likes to Nigerians

Of course, there is then heavy temptation at stage #3 for connected people to divert the subsidized refined oil away to their own pocket. But that is just the nature of the world when you have things subsidized; corruption is natural when things are being given away for less than they are worth.

Only way to eliminate corruption at stage #3 is to eventually remove the gap between how much the petrol costs (N65) and how much it is really worth (N130)

OK, so question for you all.

How should things work?

Pretend I want to open up a refinery in Nigeria.

1) Am I buying raw crude from Nigeria at market price, or at a subsidized price?
2) Am I selling locally at market price, or subsidized price?

ola olabiy:
The funny thing is that if produced and refined locally, there is no need for subsidy. It is profitable even at 65 for govt-owned refineries.

What do you mean by this? What price is the government owned refinery buying the barrel of crude at?

In any case, even if it were profitable to sell at N65, why would want to do that if it is worth N130?

But, the argument by the govt is that the product gets diverted that way. Ask them why is it easy to divert them to other countries.

Is it possible in a well-run country. And, to them, those who divert them are forever faceless.

Maybe, I dunno. In the US, we don't even have fuel subsidies. . . . we have taxes on petrol. In Europe, the taxes are even higher. I think they pay like $8+/gallon for oil there, something insane like that.

You sort of wonder whether spending $350 million a month (4.2 billion dollars) per year on petrol subsidies is the best course of action, though.

In the long run, once electricity is up and running, they should look to trim this amount by reducing the subsidy.

ola olabiy:
Exactly! It doesn't affect you one jot.

You still charge what is profitable for you why the government balances the receipt.

Ah. In that case, then build as many refineries in Nigeria as possible.

I thought you were advocating people building refinery to sell at N65/liter, when the value is N130

ola olabiy:
So, why is NOT easy for refineries in the EU  to export petrol to the UK?

It is also more expensive there.

And, why are refineries in Saudi not doing that?

I don't know about the EU or Saudi; maybe the price differential isn't 2X. After all, it does cost money to export. . . if the difference were N5 per liter (rather than N65), it might not be profitable.

Share with us the #s per liter in UK vs Europe, and Saudi vs abroad and that might tell more.

Anyway, all I know is that as prices are currently, I don't see why anyone would want to build refinery for supplying the local market. I'd much rather export. Unless the government wants to give me some sort of subsidy.

Desola, stop wasting your time arguing back and forth with someone who doesn't even know you from adam, to be calling you barren.

Let us instead focus on who the biggest loser of this new political dispensation is

What is this "first eleven" stuff? Can you explain?

The IMFs point is that whoever invests in refinery would much rather export the refined oil than sell it locally.

Who would want to sell for N65 if you can sell it abroad for N130?

And if the government forces you to sell locally, then you won't even bother investing in a refinery.

wow

TNUBU4LIFE:
“It is very important that the economy of Yorubaland be integrated into the 18 million man economy of Lagos. Through the development of agriculture especially, each of the Yoruba states should have at least 10 per cent slice of the estimated daily N2 billion food market in Lagos.“By merely considering agricultural produce, the crafts and small agro-allied products that spring from them, there is a possibility of mass engagement and production which will make the prices of the products and services from Yoruba land to Lagos almost unbeatable. The origin of our wealth is agriculture and we must return to it. There is no nation in history that went through development that did not begin with the development of agriculture.

“We must start this with the notion that farming is big business with the farmer having his eyes on profit. By introducing modern farming techniques – hybrid seeds, modern machinery, science and technology – it is possible to get hundredfold yield from the same parcel of land where our people still deploy crude implements and traditional farming practices. We are already preparing for this agriculture revolution in Osun State. We have acquired 31,000 hectares of land across the local governments in the state, in our quest for massive food production.”

This is the key. Economic integration with the $43 billion economy next door (Lagos) is absolutely critical.

Whatever we do, we must do well. If it is agric we want to focus on, fine. But do it PROFITABLY and in a MODERN way. Otherwise the Thai farmers will continue to produce their crops more cheaply than we do: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-665398.0.html

step1:
I guess as well but just because some of them speak ill of us does not mean we should make fun of them. The way we are putting it is like we want their downfall in Nigeria.

*shrug*

What is good for the goose is good for the gander. If they want to mock us for perceived losses politically, it is only fair if they should expect the same back.

Any complaints at being mocked are simply hypocritical

Just karma imo. Past few weeks or so, many posters were saying that the SW was the biggest loser of the elections.

I don't see anything wrong in serving crow to such people.

^--
[quote author=ekt_bear link=topic=665960.msg8308981#msg8308981 date=1305234656]Basically, I don't believe in "fundamental human rights" that allow one man to leech off of another.

Beggars are no different from a parasite or leech.

They turn places into eyesores, drive away business/commerce, and do nothing productive. They are purely a drain on society.

Nobody should complain about them being forced to return home.[/quote]

^-- Na lie

Igbos don't beg

Their sh1t doesn't stink like others

Their fart smells like roses

etc, etc

Basically, I don't believe in "fundamental human rights" that allow one man to leech off of another.

Beggars are no different from a parasite or leech.

They turn places into eyesores, drive away business/commerce, and do nothing productive. They are purely a drain on society.

Nobody should complain about them being forced to return home.

@violent: Unless you are offering money to accomodate these parasites beggars draining away Lagos's wealth (directly or indirectly), then it doesn't make much sense to talk about all this "fundamental human rights" nonsense.

Is that going to butter anyone's bread?

If you are a drain on the resources of Lagos State and prevent Lagos from moving ahead, then you should go back to your home. Simple as that.

And if you disagree, then put money up to change this.

Naw, it was me making the post.

Why should Lagos be burdened by the drain? It is an eyesore and drives away legitimate business.

Anyway, I'm sure there are laws against begging/loitering/etc. They could also be arrested I suppose. But that would also drain more resources than simply packing them on a bus to their state of origin.

This solution is cheaper and more likely to last longer.

Whether the law allows it or not, I'm glad it was done.

Beggars are a nuisance

hmm

Good move. Hopefully slave labor NYSC gets scrapped 

on MAY 12, 2011 · in NEWS

By Ola Ajayi
A legal practitioner, Mr. Oluwole Aluko has instituted an action against President Goodluck Jonathan and Attorney-General of the Federation, Mohammed Adoke (SAN) in a Federal High Court over the establishment of the National Youth Service Corps.

The lawyer is praying the court to determine among other prayers whether the scheme which came into being in 1973 is not in contravention of the provision of the 1999 Constitution and African Charter on Human and Peoples Rights and the United Nations Universal Declaration on Human Rights.

He says the court should abrogate the scheme and declare it null and void and that the court should determine whether every Nigerian below age 30, on completion of his first degree is liable to be called upon to serve for one year.

Mr. Aluko is also asking the court to determine if the youth service is not inconsistent with section 34(1) (a) (b) and (c) of the Constitution that allows all Nigerians right to personal dignity and freedom from inhuman and degrading treatment, slavery and freedom from performing compulsory labour.

He wants the court to decide if calling the Nigerian youths to serve in the scheme without guaranteeing his safety of life is inconsistent with the provision of section 33 (1) of the 1999 Nigerian Constitution that guarantees the rights to life of every person.

Other prayers of the lawyer are whether the provision of section 12 (1) of the NYSC that states there cannot be employment anywhere in the country except on the production of the discharge certificate or exemption certificate issued NYSC constitutes act of compulsion.


http://www.vanguardngr.com/2011/05/lawyer-sues-jonathan-agf-over-nysc/

dplordx:
Just watch where the money go: BRF's interest is only where theres some money to be made. This guy is running Lagos like a business [/b]

And realistically, that is how Lagos and the SW needs to be run if we want to make it prosper

@Abiodun234: No worries man, we are all here to learn. Thanks for the information.

Ikengawo:
but if someone from alabama refuses to move to chicago because it's not a native land of his tribe he is less patriotic then the person willing to leave his comfort zone and go to chicago.

Tribe? Tribes in Alabama or Chicago (aside from native americans, i guess)?

Very terrible analogy; makes no sense in the American context.

again, i REALLY don't see why it's bizarre to be motivated and work like Igbos to Yorubas on this site. Why wouldn't they go some where for money? why do you go the places you go? weather?

No one is claiming it is bad. Just not a sign of patriotism. Self-interest != patriotism. Very, very simple concept you don't seem to be getting.

seanet02:
zstranger is a PDP guy

I'm starting to think the same

Why celebrate a failure and a loser?

jail them all