₦airaland Forum

worlexy:
Yes God allowed him to do it. Because Jesus is the son of God and that's what the Bible says "This is my beloved son". In fact Jesus is the one that will judge the world John 5:22
and Jesus said "I and the father are one" John 10:30.

And the Quran says he was given clear proof and Pure Spirit, meaning he can not lie, so anything he says is the truth

We believe that God allows him to do everything and that's why we pray in His name

Why didn't God permit Mohammed whom you call the greatest prophet to do all the miracles exclusive only to God?

And why didn't you comment on the other issues I raised

true2god:
That's the issue when one don't understand the foundation of a text, he will only commit to memory without knowledge and understanding. It is nursery pupils that will recite 'A for apple', 'B for ball', etc. If one ask most of them to start writing the letters now, many of them can't. It is unfortunate this same scenario repeats itself among the adult Muslims.

true2god:
Sorry bro, during the time of Mohammed there is no any single sahaba that have all the Quran on his head, none, because the Quran had not been codified as a single book as we have today. The compilations and codification was done by Othman ibn affan (over 20 years after the death of Mohammed). In one of the hadith, an ayah was found with only ONE man (and no other person has the ayah except him) and he even threatened not to release it but did for the sake of Allah and his messenger. Not all ayah were committed to memory; some where written on Camel skin, leaves, bones, cloths, etc while some committed few random ayah to memory. And many of the sahabas that committee these few random ayah to memory were killed in the battle of yamama which galvanized the compilation of the Quran as a single text to avoid further loss of the Quran.

This informant is in your sahih bukhari (sahih bukhari 6:61:509).

true2god:
I won't call mariyya a sex object to Mohammed (out of respect) but can call her a concubine. She was a beautiful young girl, together with her sister, gifted to Mohammed by a leader of the old Byzantine Egypt, perhaps as a symbol of peace. Other materials gift, aside the two girls, were equally given to Mohammed.

Mary the copt was never listed in any Islamic source document (hadith or sirah) as one of his wives. As a matter of fact some hadith used the term 'slave for her'. The only leverage she had was bearing a son (who died shortly after) hence elevated her social status among Mohammed's wives and the society.

If she was a wife to Mohammed, Aisha and hafsa will not complain if Mohammed was sleeping with her.

true2god:
I won't give much time to this propaganda and sugarcoating of facts to make Mohammed and his wives appear like a model home and family. At least, in one occasion, Abu Bakr and Umar ibn kathab (the fathers of Aisha and Hafsa) had slapped their daughters for being too troublesome and disrespectful to Mohammed. This incident is in your sahih Bukhari.

I will go with what the hadith says about their character and not with what a random Muslim apologist tells me. And if they are model wives, as you claim, both ladies (Aisha and Hafsa) will not become sworn enemies to Fatima (Mohammed's only surviving child) after the death of Mohammed. Let's leave this issue for now abeg.

worlexy:
Funny you. it's apparent that you've not read your Quran well enough.

Quran 2:28, 73 clearly states that Allah is the ONLY one that gives life and causes death and even brings the dead to life.

Quran 3:49 clearly states that Jesus gave life to a clay bird and the clay bird became a living bird

Quran 5:110 stated that Jesus Raised the Dead, Gave life to clay bird, healed the blind, healed the lepers. It also stated that Jesus was given clear proof and Holy Spirit

Note that none of this wonders and Miracle was performed by Mohammed o(yet you call him the greatest prophet and you claim that Jesus is not the son of God ) . They are exclusive to God and Jesus.

Quran 3:45 clearly started that Jesus is the Word of God(Just like in John 1:1-5)

Quran 6:73 says Allah's word(not words, which implies Jesus as stated in Q3:45) is the Truth. Compare that one with John 14:6 where Jesus said he's the way the truth and the life

If you're getting confused or doubting these words in the Quran, Allah has instructed you in Quran 10:94 that if Mohammed and Muslims are in doubt of what is revealed to you in the Quran that you should ask the Christians who have been reading the Scriptures before you.

The same Quran clearly states that it was revealed to confirm what is in the scriptures and not to abolish the Bible (Quran 2:41, 89, 91, 97 etc). So the Bible remains the reference and standard for the Quran and the Muslims.

Now to salvation, Quran 46:9 states that Mohammed is NOT something original among the messengers, neither did he know what will be done to him, as he only followed what is revealed to him.

And Mohammed didn't even know the person that revealed the Quran to him, the so called Angel Gabriel never introduced himself to Mohammed as an angel from God, it was Mohammed's wife that 'thought ' the spirit appearing to Mohammed was Angel Gabriel.

Allah never spoke to Mohammed like he spoke to Abraham, Moses and Jesus in the Quran, and even when the angel of God went to talk to Mary in the Quran, the angel introduced himself as being from God.

From these, the identity of the spirit that recited Quran to Mohammed is unknown, hence our doubt, and the good thing is that the spirit said we can confirm the authenticity of the Quran by checking the Bible, so anything in the Quran that's not in the Bible remains null and void(Quran 10:94)


On the contrary, Jesus told his followers that he knew where he was going and that he was going to prepare a place for us because in His father's house, there are mansions there (John 14:2-3) and the Quran stated that Jesus cannot lie because he was given clear proof and Pure Spirit (Quran 5:110).

The decision is yours to make now. Choose today whom you will serve.

Shalom

sagenaija:
You will MOST PROBABLY respond to this my post with another long-winding write up. YET you couldn't answer the question on Hafs and Warsh but said until Ramadan is over and SUDDENLY what do you come up with? The following:

The question again:
Is it the same ARABIC word that is used in both Hafs and Warsh versions of the Koran in chapter 3:146 for “fought” [Hafs] and “killed” [Warsh]?

sagenaija:
Is there any line of Moslems that have transmitted the Koran through MEMORY ONLY without resort to the physical Koran FROM THE TIME OF MOHAMED UNTIL NOW?

sagenaija:
Ask yourself this simple question:
Does what I wrote up there ADDRESS any of the questions raised?

Are you in the comedy business?

sagenaija:
Let me try and use a few questions to debunk your response.
1. Is something in the memory the same as something written in a book?
2. So, is the thing in people's memory INSIDE today's Koran?

sagenaija:
When you BLATANTLY LIE I wonder what goes on in your head.

Sometimes I wonder too why you seem to be reasoning like a little child. Honestly.

Let me try and use a few questions to debunk your response.
1. Is something in the memory the same as something written in a book?
2. So, is the thing in people's memory INSIDE today's Koran?

true2god:
Sunan An-Nasa'i 3411 —It was narrated from Anas, that the Messenger of Allah had a female slave with whom he had intercourse, but Aishah and Hafsah would not leave him alone until he said that she was forbidden for him. Then Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, revealed: "O Prophet! Why do you forbid (for yourself) that which Allah has allowed to you" [66:1]


Remember, he made an oath to his wives, a promise, which he couldn't keep by going back to the same slave woman his wives had created issue on. What happened next? Allah revealed Quran 66:1,

"O Prophet, why do you prohibit [yourself from] what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."


And don't forget, I told you that the Quran is nothing but the wishes and desires of Mohammed which the second incident rightly confirmed again.

Asalama lekum!

true2god:
Please note that the hadith is not only a story but the sunnah of the Islamic prophet. It is a standard, an example, for Muslims to follow. The issue is not merely what God made, or did not, halal but the gravity is the issue involved. If the issue is honey, as most Muslims want us to accept, this issue would have been closed since, but there are two contradictory hadith that tried to explain Quran 66:1. And we can only based our conclusion using 'the principle of embarrassment'.

Principle of Embarrassment: is a principle that is employed to validate the trustworthiness, authenticity, and truthfulness of any historical document. The principle is such that if there are 2 conflicting accounts of an event, the more embarrassing account is likely to be closer to the truth because the person narrating the incident has no reason to paint his hero in a bad light.

In a layman example, if a father goes to the public and say his son is a thief but his mum, almost at the same time, comes to counter his father by telling the public that he is not a thief, the more embarrassing account is usually closer to the truth.

Now back to the issue, the most and best explanation to Quran 66:1 is to follow the hadith below, and not the cook up by bukhari:

Sunan An-Nasa'i 3411 —It was narrated from Anas, that the Messenger of Allah had a female slave with whom he had intercourse, but Aishah and Hafsah would not leave him alone until he said that she was forbidden for him. Then Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, revealed: "O Prophet! Why do you forbid (for yourself) that which Allah has allowed to you" [66:1]


Remember, he made an oath to his wives, a promise, which he couldn't keep by going back to the same slave woman his wives had created issue on. What happened next? Allah revealed Quran 66:1,

"O Prophet, why do you prohibit [yourself from] what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."


And don't forget, I told you that the Quran is nothing but the wishes and desires of Mohammed which the second incident rightly confirmed again.

Asalama lekum!

sagenaija:
Do we have Muhammad's Qur'an today?
Hatun discusses with a Muslim why the Qur'an Muslims have today is not the same as the one Muhammad received.

Sunan ibn Majah 1944—It was narrated that Aishah said: “The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.”
https://youtu.be/P66.hQUbfB4c

sagenaija:
You write "epistle" on every other matter apart from the ones you are confronted with.
You will claim you have no time but are ready to spend time on deflection of the line
of argument.

You gave NO EXAMPLE or response to answer this simple question:

true2god:
On Quran 66:1, you brought it up because I told you, based on Aisha's own testimony that Mohammed's lord always 'hasten to fulfil his wishes and desires' hence my conclusion that the Quran was nothing but the wishes and desires of Mohammed. And I equally told you that I go with the Maliki school of thought which explained that this ayah got to do with a slave girl called Mariya (a Coptic slave who later gave birth to a son named Ibrahim) who Mohammed usually slept with in Hafsat house whenever she is away. She (Hasfa) found out and, together with Aisha, confronted Mohammed about it while Mohammed promised never to do that again until Allah revealed Quran 66:1. If you read Quran 66: 1-5, you will see that it has nothing to do with honey bro. No wife will disrespect her husband because co-wife is giving him honey to retain their attention. The hadith of bukahri and the tafsir of ibn kathir on this ayah is ridiculous and untenable.

This is the hadith that support above argument and rightfully explained by your famous scholar Jalalayn:

Sunan An-Nasa'i 3411 —It was narrated from Anas, that the Messenger of Allah had a female slave with whom he had intercourse, but Aishah and Hafsah would not leave him alone until he said that she was forbidden for him. Then Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, revealed: "O Prophet! Why do you forbid (for yourself) that which Allah has allowed to you" [66:1]

And if, for the benefit of the doubt, we are to give the tafsir of ibn kathir a thought and his supporting hadith, what does that make of the character of Aisha? A liar who deceived and lied to her husband out of jealousy but at the same time one of the largest contributor to the hadith collections? What authority can one grade an hadith by Aisha if she had been caught lying before? If hadith collected by Hafs can be rejected based on his personal integrity, why did Sunni Muslims accept his narrations in sahih bukhari (and sahih Muslim)? And this is the reason you wrote:

'There is more to this story why the verse was revealed'.

There is nothing more to any story bro, we fully understand. Whichever tafsir who chose to use, Ibn kathir or Jalalayn, it prove one fact, the Quran is contradictory based on the fact your own tafsir and hadith contradicted each other on the interpretations of a single ayah. As a matter of honesty and truthfulness, the tafsir of Jalalayn is more credible on this issue.

Asalama lekum!

true2god:
You said I shut up on the issue of Hafs and Warsh inconsistencies, hope you are not responding to the wrong person. The issue of warsh and hafs have not gone away bro because you have not proved anything concerning the contradictions in the readings.

On you super heavy weight Adepoju, I will contact him again via his Facebook account and do a screenshot to you. No need of devoting much on a man who is not currently a major topic of discussion. I briefly talked about him to tell you that, despite his 'bashing for a living' (Nigerian Muslim version of David wood) activity which he lived on for over 25 years (highly experienced), he has no single experience in defending Islamic beliefs and practices, based on my last engagement with him.

Tessyy1701:
@Sheik Empiree,
I want You to confirm the following too coz I don't want to "jè gbese"

LADUNAL= 15,000
LADKUD= 15,000
TESSYY1701= 15,000
USIYARO= 13,000
TEZERDYO= 13,000
AADOIZA= 13,000
NAFIZZEY= 12,000
PRINCEEPULE= 8,000
EXCEL70= 12,000

I hope I am correct

true2god:
You have schooled me on Hafs and warsh, seriously? You are a clown bro, a mosque clown for that matter. Even your fellow Muslims reading this thread cannot comment because they are embarrassed and you said you have 'schooled' me when you admitted you never even looked at the Haf-warsh screenshots I sent you. It seems you live in a fantasy world oblivious of reality.

If you are educated, you will agree with me that most modern debates and interviews are conducted via Skype and at least you will also have the opportunity to see my handsome face. I have watched many Christian-muslim debates that are conducted via Skype, both for cost, distance and security reasons. Start thinking like a 21st century man bro! I told you I asked Ustaz Adepoju for a debate but he refused and told me 'I only do open air lectures', meaning thrashing Christianity without being challenged on his Islamic beliefs.

I still stand by my words and will happily provide my contact if you can arrange a debate between us.

Umar ibn kathab was also instrumental in some Quranic revelations, I need you to comment on their sir? I also responded to your claim on Quran 66:1, you can do me a big favour touching on that one too. Don't deflect!

Asalama lekum!

true2god:
Is your sheik comfortable with debate via Skype? I would like him to also convert me after our debate. I used to think you are a heavyweight but its clear you are another Anthony Joshua.

Rahimat27:
I always see myself in the midst of people praying,performing ablution.I was feeling weak one night and I dreamt that I was offered a food and after waking up I felt so energized.I can communicate intentionally in my dreams but I have a weakness I usually mistake my dreams for reality

sagenaija:
Maybe this will make you overcome your boredom :.
Mohamed your hero and role model was uncertain of his salvation - Q.46:9

You cannot be more certain than Mohamed. In other words, you are not certain of your salvation.

But Jesus Christ said "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me "

You follow a man who said: "By Allah though I am the Apostle of Allah, yet I DO NOT KNOW what Allah will do to me" - Sahih Bukhari

Jesus said "Come unto me all you who labour and are heavy ladden and i will give you rest"
"To all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God"
"There is .... no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus "

Usiyaro:
Good day Sir Empiree, replied through our past conversations in the mail. Thanks once again.
Taqabballu minnaa wa minkum
Eidkum Mubaaraq

sagenaija:
It's your fear about being faced with the truth of Islam.
Your fear that your bag of excuses has been thrown open for all to see.
Your fear of being faced with the contradictions in your religion.
Your fear of confronting Allah's apparent lack of historical knowledge, scientific knowledge and basic human psychology.
Your fear of the insufficiency of the Koran and therefore resort to the hadiths.
Your fear that, at the end of the day, Koran is not a plainly revealed book so Moslems live their lives on their perceived understanding of Islam because the book makes nothing clear.

true2god:
Do you understand simple grammar at all? I said, based on Madam Aisha's testimony, that the Qur'an is purely the wishes and desires of Mohammed. Whatever was on Mohammed's mind, that was the revelation he received. It is a simple sentence that even a kindergarten pupil will understand and it baffles me that you are struggling with this reality. Do you think it will shake your faith? No wonder you have to build a 'firewall' around your thought to ensure that no any evidence penetrates.

Don't put words into my mouth, I know you are smart. I never said the Quran is the wishes and desires of his companions (who wrote down the Quran) but the wishes and desires of Mohammed himself. It is Mohammed's personal wishes and desires that made up the Quran while Allah is just a means to an end.

Asalama lekum!

true2god:
Christian Prince was born and raised in Egypt; an Arab by birth. He speaks Arabic as his first language and he had read the Quran from chapter 1 to chapter 116. He speaks, writes and understood Arabic better than you. He has a scholarship in Islamic theology hence makes him an authority in Islam. What's your qualification in Islamic theology? What scholarship do you have in Arabic language?

Muslims always make a demand that 'show me the Arabic Quran' and 'Islam can only be understood in its original Arabic'. Well, Christian prince obviously meet your stiff criteria, why didn't you bother watch the video? Will it shake your faith? Of course that's the greatest fear of any Muslim hence Allah, in the Quran, asked you guys never to ask questions so that you won't lose your faith. Why did Allah ask Muslims never to question their beliefs if he (Allah) is so sure of himself? That's to tell you that Allah has a very weak argument to defend Islam hence his admonition in Quran 5:101:

O you who believe! (Do) not ask about things if made clear to you, it may distress you and if you ask about it when the Quran is being revealed it would be made clear to you. Allah has pardoned [about] it, and Allah (is) Oft-Forgiving, All-Forbearing..

The Quran is very clear here, if Muslims are too inquisitive (on Islamic-related matters) it may cause them distress and eventually make them lose their faith in Islam. I fully understand your fear. Your guys, 'Tintinz' and 'usermane' have opened their mind, questioned Islam and have decided to leave for good. These are same people that I have debated, here on Nairaland, for more than 5 years.

Asalama lekum!

sagenaija:
Can you see what caught your attention in all that I wrote?
Virgins! Only that!

I am 100% certain that you're pained that you've not been able find anything to refute Christian Prince.

Sorry ehn! Pęlę!

true2god:
It is very ridiculous for you to say you never looked at the screenshots. This is to say that your response so far had been based on blind argument, without looking at the evidences presented to you whether they are true of false. I think you need to apologize if you are not an arrogant man.

The different diacritical marks you talked about, does it have effect on the meanings of the ayah where there are different marks in the Hafs and Warsh Quran? Look at surah alfathiha (1:4), Hafs used 'owner' while Warsh used 'king', do they mean the same?

Look at surah albaqra ayah 10 (ayah 9 in Warsh), do they have the same meaning?

true2god:
I still maintain my points, based on what Aisha (not you because Mohammed did not know you):

Narrated Aisha: I used to look down upon those ladies who had given themselves to Allah's Apostle and I used to say, "Can a lady give herself (to a man)?" But when Allah revealed: "You (O Muhammad) can postpone (the turn of) whom you will of them (your wives), and you may receive any of them whom you will; and there is no blame on you if you invite one whose turn you have set aside (temporarily).' (33.51) I said (to the Prophet),
"I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires."
(Sahih Bukhari 6:60:311).

The key words I want you to pick are: YOUR WISHES AND DESIRES.

Now back to the argument and based on Aisha's testimony, most ayah of the Quran are wishes and desires of Mohammed. If that's the case, it was Muhammad's wishes and desires for his scribes to write down the Quran in Arabic, unless you can prove to me that there was another major languages people spoke in the Arabian peninsula, at the time of Mohammed, aside Arabic. You don't need any God to tell you that Mohammed's Quran will be written in Arabic; it is just a commonsense for any rational mind to grasp.

And when you bought up ayah where Mohammed was asked to 'say' and 'say", it does still change the fact that virtually all what we have in the Quran are Mohammed's wishes and desires. I didn't say so, Madam Aisha bint Abu Bakr did after much observation on the pattern of Mohammed's alleged revelations.