₦airaland Forum

@Olaadegbu

Thanks.

[digression]I was asking after you recently; I wondered if you followed Dawkins' appearance on Radio 4 with Giles Fraser where Dawkins made a fool of himself to the extent he even called "Oh God" when he became stuck. [/digression]

Just clear off with your cowardice!

frosbel:
Your human logic cannot 'crack this hard nut'.

Maybe if you introduce some humility into your outlook , the truth might become more obvious.

I don't engage in the parroting of notions and ideas that are presented as facts, just because they have been the norm for over a thouSand years and accepted by all and sundry.

Like I said earlier, think outside the box, don't just believe anything YOU HEAR.

Look clear off for the time being; give room to people who have gonads and brains! Please, I'm begging.

Nuke

The semantic issue of whether to use the word "Trinity" is minor in my view and I will not dwell on it.

Now to Oneness doctrine: I will say you need to study it before you say you agree with it. Let me give you an example.

Bible: baptise in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit

Oneness: baptise in the name of Jesus only  (that is where their nickname "Jesus-only" people comes from).

^^^ Usual tactics ---- banalities and inanities. You think people are fooled?

When you grow some gonads or borrow some dog's bollocks instead of simply speaking bollocks, we'll see you engage questions posed to you instead of hiding behind the inanities.

When you grow some balls! When you grow some gonads --- or at least borrow some dog's bollocks. It is not enough to simply speak bollocks.

^^^ Abeg, go and answer questions in post # 35 or comot for road.

Nuke

There are a number of issues:

1. Semantics (minor issue this one, really) ---- some object to the word "Trinity".

2. Divinity --- the non-Trinitarians will deny the divinity of Jesus or of the Holy Spirit

3. "Jesus only" --- I have kept quiet about this but (maybe without realising it) it seems to be where frosbel is going with his most recent posts here and elsewhere: that is the idea that only Jesus is God and He is also the Father ------ no difference.



EDIT Number 3 is also called the "Oneness" doctrine.

As expected ------ NID.

No answer = No balls!

Whatever, if you push me I will show you for what you are ---- simples.  

Meanwhile, I see you are resorting to one of you usual tactics when you want to run away -------- turn to inanities and banalities.

Of course you will not address the issues and questions.

OK let us see if you have balls! Try answering the questions in my previous post (#35).  

Soooo when Jesus said:

- My God, why have You forsaken Me ---- who was He talking to/of?

- Father, into Your hand, I commit My spirit ----- who was He talking to?

So:

When The Father said: 'This is My Son' --------- how is that to be understood?

When Jesus said: 'I do the will of My Father' ----- how is that to be understood?

frosbel:
God is not 3, God is 1.

Stop driving yourself round in circles.

Anyway, we will never agree on this one, I guess the most important issue is that God is 1, let's leave it at that.

Meanwhile, I am trying hard not to repay you in kind --- this is your second time. You have been warned, I could very much open up on you and show you for what you are including your cowardice and intellectual poverty.

frosbel:
. . .

Unknowingly you guys are promoting a pagan trinity doctrine where God is 3 distinct persons and not 1 .

Those who challenged this doctrine, were butchered in those early days. . . .

This is a misrepresentation. The first element in the Trinity doctrine is that God is ONE (or 1 if you like)!

The first question I suggest in this thread as indicating potential belief in God as Trinity is: Do you believe that God is One?


As for the emotive nonsense about "people being butchered", that is just a lazy excuse and sidestepping of the issue. Started with the attempt (continued) to run away from the question: how can Jesus be God and The Father God at the same time?

^^^ Small beer and stuff of conspiracy theorists. 

The matter has long been addressed extensively here https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-497445.0.html#msg6575922

On the thread that frosbel started which eventually led to this one, I wrote the following:

One interesting thing I notice about frosbel's posts is that he actually believes in the most fundamental tenets of the Trinity doctrine i.e.:

- (a) The Father is God; (b) Jesus is God; and (c) The Holy Spirit is God; AND
- that God is One

What he had (has?) not realised is that anybody who believes the above already believes in the Trinity at least in one form or another. 

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-870257.32.html#msg10206457


Well this seems to be borne out by the most recent posts: whether God is being called a "tri-une" God or whether there are disagreements with elements of the Nicene formulation, once the four questions I posed are answered in the affirmative, the result is a belief in "Trinity" in one form or another. Otherwise, the question that I posed to Frosbel on the other thread remains: how can Jesus be God and The Father be God at the same time? To this of course we add, how can Jesus be God, The Father be God and the Holy Spirit be God at the same time. I suppose one honest answer would be to say: "we don't know - but that is what the Bible reveals". I can live with that.   



EDIT PS I also suggest a careful reading of the opening post and that its argument/conclusion is not even based on the Nicene formulation. 

Yeah, you have your "facts".

However what I see is a link to one random blogger's views versus something as official as:

According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll 2005,[121] 31% of Danish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God", whereas 49% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" and 19% that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God or life force".

The above is irrespective of whether children are routinely baptised into the official State religion of Christianity.


The above picture is even before we start asking what is the population of Denmark (6 million max, I think); not even up to the population of Lagos. What impact would that have on per capita income and standard of living?

So as the politician said: "there are lies, damned lies ---- and statistics!"

This post has nothing to do with the topic of this thread but . . . . .

As we keep hearing all these claims about Denmark and other scandinavian countries . . .

Religion

According to official statistics from January 2011, 80.4%[119] of the population of Denmark are members of the Danish National Church (Den Danske Folkekirke), a Lutheran church that was made the official state religion by the Constitution of Denmark. This is down 0.6% compared to the year earlier and 1.2% down compared to two years earlier. Article 6 of the Constitution states that the Royal Family must belong to this Church, though the rest of the population is free to adhere to other faiths. About 15% of the Danes do not belong to any denomination.

Denmark's Muslims make up less than 2% of the population and form the country's second largest religious community. As per an overview of various religions and denominations by the Danish Foreign Ministry, other groups comprise less than 1% of the population individually and approximately 2% when taken all together.[120]

According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll 2005,[121] 31% of Danish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God", whereas 49% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" and 19% that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God or life force".

For more than a hundred years after the Reformation, Lutheranism was the only legal religion in Denmark, but in 1682 the state granted limited recognition to three other faiths: Roman Catholicism, the Reformed Church and Judaism[citation needed]. Until the recent immigration of Muslims, these three were practically the only non-Lutheran religions practiced in Denmark. As of 2005, 19 Muslim communities have been officially recognised. Forn Siðr (English: Old Custom), based on the much older, native pagan religion, gained official recognition in November 2003.[122]

Religious societies and churches do not need official government recognition in Denmark. They can be granted the right to perform weddings and other ceremonies without this recognition.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark#Religion

"DIVERSE" or "divers" simply means 'different' or 'various'.

There is nothing extra spritual about "DIVERSE" or "divers" tongues ------- it simply means different tongues or various tongues or different languages or various languages.

We will cordially look to the future but, as is my wont, I will not guarantee getting engaged in discussion.

Deep Sight:
I hear you sir, and i take that comment to heart and in good faith. I have one suggestion as well for you - do drop hard feelings. Lets have a cordial and pleasant 2012. I never had as extensive and explosive debates with you as I did with people like noetic and davidylan, yet neither of those display any bitterness towards me till this day. In your case, the bitterness just reeks everywhere. U no need am bros.

Cheers.

Well, the history of my interaction with you is still available. At least I have never deleted any of my posts directed to or concerning you.

Go back and read my relevant posts carefully and if you make the adjustments to be done, I might possibly be willing to discuss. If not, my atitude remains very much the same.

My conscience is wholly clear and my heart is wholly clean; I have dealt with you truthfully, honestly and even with much forebearing especially in the earliest interactions when you were throwing ridiculously vituperative insults my way ---- without any cause or warrant whatsoever.  

^^^ And to you!

And if it is not too late to make New Year resolutions here is one recommendation: to learn not to mischaracterise other people.

I have other suggestions but I will stick to just this one for now.

Deep Sight:
. . .

My observation is that when people cannot stand a rigorous inquiry into their position, they simply throw a tantrum. That is what Enigma does all the time - I say this because you referred to him. Do not do that.

Enigma simply calls idiocy ---- well, idiocy.  

A spade is always a spade --- anytime.  

Na so!

I have not insulted you so far --- though I have plenty of bases to do so. 

If you cannot answer the question --- it is no worry to me. However, I would expect an intellectually honest Christian seeking true knowledge and understanding to spend time thinking about the question.

^^^ Sorry, as far as I can see, the answer above does not answer the question:

If Jesus is God, how can The Father also be God at the same time.

This is the crux --- the issue that everyone has to grapple with.

Jesus' disciples believed Him to be God and belived in God as Trinity loooooooooooooooong before the Nicene Council.

Again as the misinformation about the Nicene council has come up, I refer people to following link and maybe it will help to disabuse their minds of the misinformation.  

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-497445.64.html#msg7181702

Joagbaje:
Let's leave pastor chris out of discussion. I am joagbaje

You are now ashamed of "Pastor Chris" because you know deep down in your heart that he is wrong. 

The same "pastor  Chris" of whom you told us that he is the best Bible teacher in the whole world and that people, pastors etc are coming from all over the world to learn from him!

He cannot get an elementary thing as the status of "tithing" right. Now you want to distance yourself from him.

No problem; I've made my point anyway. I'll leave you to your conscience.

frosbel:
[flash=400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxUDtQyN2tI?version=3&hl=en[/flash]

You started the thread; then when the questions got (only mildly) tough, you started saying everyone should hold to their own beliefs. Now you are posting this video all over the place, I'll give you the same response and offer you the same deal as on the other thread.

You are posting this video all over the place when you shied away from answering a rather simple question. OK I repeat it now and I would offer you a deal: if you give a reasoned answer to the question, I will watch your video and address any serious issue/s that it raises.

How can Jesus be "God" and The Father also be "God" ----- at the same time?

You are posting this video all over the place when you shied away from answering a rather simple question. OK I repeat it now and I would offer you a deal: if you give a reasoned answer to the question, I will watch your video and address any serious issue/s that it raises.

How can Jesus be "God" and The Father also be "God" ----- at the same time?