₦airaland Forum

toba: Who's this mr James?

Good question!

Quite regularly (everyday more or less really) when I see a post by anyone of the evangelical atheists here, I laugh to myself because "Mr James" had long identified the folly parotted in or reflected by the post. One could easily answer most posts by the evangelical atheists by simply referring to one or other of the 30 keys; similarly with the list of questions devised by another astute person which is posted on this thread as well.

As has been said before, only an omniscient person or a fool can say there is no God. In fact I have noticed a number of the evangelical atheists here gradually shifting their positions more towards a form of agnosticism.

Zikkyy: I think percentage to be contributed should be determined by the giver. You would be influencing the amount to be given if you specify the %

Agreed, to be honest. It shows how far we bend and how hard we try to accommodate our "tithe" preaching friends . . . .

. . . . even at the risk that they will misrepresent us (as they do very frequently, as to border on obtuseness or dishonesty) that we are "supporting" the so-called "tithing".

1. Quote where it is stated that anyone gave tithes of all s/he possessed, let us assess it ---- if it is in the Bible.

2. Of course, there are instances where people gave money; all I wanted was for you to be explicit in your denial of the widow's mite and Judas' 30 shekels as being under the Mosaic regime. If you want passages, I can give you. For benefit of other readers, see e.g. 2 Kings 12:9.

3. Look even with tithes there were instructions if one wanted to do it with money: (a) in one instance it was forbidden altogether, i.e. money was not acceptable at all as tithe; (b) in a second instance to try and use money as tithes attracted punishment in the form of a fine, you had to add extra thus making the tithe in money something in the region of 12.5%; (c) the only time that God Himself made an exception for tithe to be in money ---He i.e. God said that the tither should spend the money on whatsoever his heart desired so as to jollify himself and family together with widows etc; the money was not to be given in "church" or equivalent!!!!

The bottom line, there is no tithing obligation in Christianity; strictly, there is no tithing doctrine except to say that a person can choose to do his own giving in the form of giving 10% into church.

If your example for your claim that some one "tithed all he possessed" is Abram, then the example is false; what it means is that you are adding to scripture.

The Bible does not say he gave tithes of "all he possessed"; he gave tithes of "all", but Hebrews 7 clarifies for us that "all" refers to "spoils" of war. So what Abram gave was tithes of 'all' he seized in war not "all he possessed".

On your other point: before we go into issues of other examples of money under Mosaic regime: are you denying i.e. are you arguing that the money offering in the case of the widow and the initial consideration in the case of Judas' 30 shekels were not under the Mosaic regime?

Snowwy: . . . there is a record of someone who gave tithes of all He possessed ( I know you know that money is a possession) as well.

So, who was this person?

"Clap offering", "worship offering", "offering of services e.g ushering, church car park attendant etc" are all "offering".

The widow's mite was given under the dispensation of the law of Moses. There is plenty of other evidence that money was given into the "Treasury" as offerings still under the law of Moses.

Even Judas' 30 pieces of silver was to be given to the Treasury except it was rejected as blood money.

Luke 21: 1-4

And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury. And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites. And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all: For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

And yes even though in Luke (and Mark as well), it was an Old Testament event.

Of course you would --- but deep down you know the home truths touched where they were meant to touch.

Talking of rants, are you blind to the daily rants of you and fellow evangelical atheists?

Kay 17: seen the thread before. Wouldn't worth it to read again.

Not my problem. I simply reiterate that evangelical atheism in particular has been proven conclusively to be a religion --- from intellectual and legal/judicial perspectives.


By the way it is threadS not thread.

Interesting that the opening post actually supports and defends the doctrine of the Trinity.

^^^ I said take your time ---- and read the threads.

By the way, a possible variant of the question in the OP is whether atheists, especially evangelical atheists, believe that there is such a thing as evil!

@OP

I'm aware of at least one atheist on this forum who believes in juju. I think it was the thieves sweeping with brooms or pouring water into a basket thing.

Kay 17: pls do provide such characteristics which prove evangelical atheists are "religious" . . . .

For discussions and proof that evangelical atheism is a religion (indeed, a fundamentalist religion), please take time at your leisure to go through the following threads.

https://www.nairaland.com/546562/atheism-religion/5#7135281

https://www.nairaland.com/298119/30-keys-being-effective-atheist/3#9580290


https://www.nairaland.com/765094/heard-there-different-kinds-atheism/2#9227593

@goshen360

Na waa o; in fact na wawawa!

@ Jem1

Good point!

And what about the guy who gives "tithes" 'money' to his brother and not to church ---- is he too not blessed?

Afterall, some people have been telling us all sorts: one even says if a person's son is on the point of death, he should still first 'pay' "tithes" into church ---- instead of spending the money on medical treatment for his son!

Kay 17: Hmmm. . . Theory/doctrine is not = religion.

No matter how evangelical some atheists are, its still not a religion, the same way Stoics, communists aren't religious. Its just a position as theism which is not a religion either. Religion goes beyond a one dimensional position, it involves dogma, morality, faith. .

And so too evangelical atheism involves dogma, morality, faith . .

Anyway, I say again that it has been proven conclusively that evangelical atheism is a religion --- from both intellectual and legal/judicial perspectives.

You are still making a false argument and wasting people's time.

Who is arguing that someone will not be blessed for making any donation to church. We go to church and give in church regularly. I even laid it out for you in my last post, esp point no 2 and the cheerful giver!

Your false argument started with your rubbish claims about open heavens and floodgates because of "tithes" in Malachi 3. We have now exposed the intellectual and biblical bankruptcy of that one. So try another one.

You are making a false argument and certainly not using your brain at all if you have one. At least you are grossly ignorant, biblically, and that is quite obvious.

1. God has already blessed the Christian. Epehesians 1:3

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

2. If all a person gives is what they can afford (and nowhere near 10% or "tithes" ), God Almighty will bless them nonetheless. 2 Cor 9:7

Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

3. If you take that approach with Malachi 3:10, then what is your approach to the passage below from Deuteronomy 14

28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year’s produce and store it in your towns, 29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.

[quote author=ndu_chucks]Malachi 3:10

Now go back and answer the question I asked.[/quote]Wrong!!!!!

Malachi 3:10 required people to bring tithes of agricultural produce and the tenth livestock to Levitical priests.

It does not say that anyone who makes a donation of 10% or tithe will receive the blessing of open flood gates etc

Try again or try another one.

Where in the Bible is it stated that God will open the floodgates of heaven and pour out a blessing if a person makes a donation of 10% or "tithe" to his place of worship?

Where o where?

God2man: Why is there so much arguments about tithe on nairaland? Why? If you search very well, you will discover that this topic is not new, we have argued extensively on this very Topic of helping your brother with your tithe.
Silence is a sign of wisdom, when you begin to show that you know everything, then there is a problem, it shows that you are not ready to listen to other christians explanation on the issue of tight, this is a manifestation of ignorance, a wise man will think deeply on various opposing views.
Anti-tithers should think deeply on the statement made by our LORD JESUS CHRIST on tithe, Mattew 23:23, especially the part of not leaving the other undone.
Now, how do we know the person that is saying the right thing? Do we pray to God for inspiration? What do we do on the issue of tithe? God will help us on nairaland on tithe wahala. God bless you all. God2man.

OK, let us think about Matthew 23:23 together.

Here is the Matthew 23:23 from KJV

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

So we start with Jesus raining woe on some people; who are these people?
Answer: the scribes and Pharisees

Why did he rain woe on them?
ANSWER: because they practised "tithing" i.e. they "tithed" mint, anise, cummin but neglected the more important matters of the law like justice mercy, kindness and faithfulness.

So we see Jesus raining woe on people who practised tithing for paying "tithes" --- while neglecting important matters.

What kind of thing did the people tithe, was it money? Noooooooooooooooo! They tithed mint, anise & cummin. To use a crude reference, they tithed okra, spinach, coriander.

OK Jesus said "these ye ought have done" without neglecting the others. What does this mean? It means the people should have tithed their mint, anise, cummin (okra, spinach, coriander) without neglecting the more important matters of the law!

So Jesus was speaking to people under the law about their law. This same law is Jewish law not Christian law!

Do we see Jesus asking anyone to tithe money? Do you see Jesus asking anyone to tithe to Him (Jesus)? Of course not! Jesus had no right under the law to ask anyone to pay tithes to Him --- since He was not a Levite or Levitical priest?

And He did not ask anyone to tithe money because "tithe" was NOT money. It was agricultural produce and livestock!

So conclusion: "these ye ought have done" means you ought have tithed mint, dill, cummin (and other agricultural produce and livestock) if you are under the Jewish law and Levitical priesthood system. But if you do it, it may also be a case of woe to you if you neglect more important matters like mercy which could mean giving money to your brother in need than to some "pastor" as "tithes".

So if those who call us anti-tithers want to show that they too can think and have thought carefully about Matthew 23:23, let's hear it!

God2man: Why is there so much arguments about tithe on nairaland? Why? If you search very well, you will discover that this topic is not new, we have argued extensively on this very Topic of helping your brother with your tithe.
Silence is a sign of wisdom, when you begin to show that you know everything, then there is a problem, it shows that you are not ready to listen to other christians explanation on the issue of tight, this is a manifestation of ignorance, a wise man will think deeply on various opposing views.
Anti-tithers should think deeply on the statement made by our LORD JESUS CHRIST on tithe, Mattew 23:23, especially the part of not leaving the other undone.
Now, how do we know the person that is saying the right thing? Do we pray to God for inspiration? What do we do on the issue of tithe? God will help us on nairaland on tithe wahala. God bless you all. God2man.

OK, let us think about Matthew 23:23 together.

EDITED: Duh, just realised double-post; see now two posts below!

Let us add more big big grammar. It was "directed panspermia"!

Even the dunce Dawkins realised how bad that one is that he quickly moved to dissociate himself after evidently putting it forward as the basis of origin of life on earth.

Kay 17: ^^^
There is no dictionary on earth, that defines atheism as a religion or theory.

Self created?? Lol! No. If I was created, I would have an objectively discernible purpose and the presence of a creator.

A problem with God is, if man as ordinary as he is requires a Cause, wouldn't God??

Kay 17: . . .
Enigma's quote:
The doctrine or belief that there is no God.

Thus a religion??

Are you tryng to argue that someting called a doctrine or belief is outside the scope of religion or theory?

Meanwhile, I see you are silent on the other point that evangelical atheism in particular has been proven conclusively to be a religion ---- both intellectually and legally/judicially.

And here is scripture that says people should either eat or spend "tithes" on whatsoever one's heart desires. Also, that one should share "tithes" with poor people including widows and orphans.

Deuteronomy 14

22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. 23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always. 24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: 25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: 26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, 27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.

28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: 29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

The fact is that no one can satisfy the requirement for receiving the 'promise' in Malachi to 'open the flood gates of heaven'.

For a person to satisfy the requirement s/he cannot "tithe" using money!

S/he must give the very specific tenth of cattle/livestock.

S/he must give tithes of agricultural produce.

S/he must give it specifically to Levitical priests. This is impossible as no Levitical priests can be found today.

etc etc etc

Now does God still bless people including opening the floodgates of heaven? Of course He does ----- but it is not because of "tithing" according to Malachi 3:10.

^^^ But "pastors" and "GOs" can use tithes to buy private jets, build universities for children of fellow rich, drive luxury cars etc.

But the one that Jesus said you should do - including using supposed "tithes" - to feed the hungry, help the poor, help the sick etc ------- that one is forbidden.

Preaching of tithes especially in this way is paganism and not Christianity at all!

From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism

atheism means:

noun
1.
the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2.
disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings

In any event it has been proven conclusively on this forum both from intellectual and legal perspectives that evangelical atheism in particular is certainly now a religion.

https://www.nairaland.com/546562/atheism-religion/9#9232422

^^^

Hebrews 7

Verse 5

And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

Verses 11 & 12

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12[b]For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.[/b]

Verses 18 & 19

For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

In other words: "tithing" has been "disannulled" (abolished) along with the Levitical priesthood on which it was based: both have been replaced by the bringing in of a better hope (which makes things perfect) and by which we draw nigh unto God.

Previously posted here https://www.nairaland.com/685535/another-tithe-thread#8477468

God Himself said that "tithes" should be shared with widows and orphans.

Deuteronomy 26:12

When you have finished tithing all the tithes of your increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and have given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within your gates, and be filled

Deuteronomy 14

28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: 29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.