₦airaland Forum

thehomer: Who told you that 3% of people cannot be wiser than 97%?
Do you actually think that believing in some God somehow makes you wiser?

ghostofsparta: My response:

1. DREAM
There are three phases of sleep and depending on how exhausted the body is, a dream may occur in between these phases notably during REM. REM? (Rapid Eyes Movement) Take for instance, suppose you were staring at a door-knob, your eyes fixated at the shiny metal knob and suddenly, a wall-gecko brisks by, you involuntarily move the position of your pupils from the door knob line of sight towards the location of the wall-gecko's line of sight. Such act of observation is called 'seeing' or 'watching' which is what goes on during REM because the pupil rapidly moves from one direction to another, seeing visuals, watching moving images. The next question is where does these 'visual images' comes from? There's an abstract thing called 'mind' which is responsible for our emotions, logic, intellects, reasoning and ofcourse 'imagination' which is the keypoint here been that when one imagines, one can be said to be visualising one's own thoughts e.g. 'kissing someone' or 'passing an exam' or 'surviving an accident'; kind of like watching one's own imagination. In other words the visual images seen by the eyes is generated from the mind, at this juncture I'm provided with the liberty to define 'dream' as the pre-lucid experience of visualising one's own imagination while 'dreaming' is the visual feedback of residual thoughts ex-imagined on a conscious mind, induced by the sub-conscious self. If the pupils are static, the subject would experience either a drifty or normal or deep sleep (no dream). I have dreamt about events that I wished could happen but never did, I have dreamt about nightmares that never transpired. I have had disturbing real life experience I never previously dreamt of, likewise have I had several delightful moments I never dreamt prior to. So no dreams actually come true. Your point of a dream coming true is highly subjective, unless taken metaphorically. You've only made a futile attempt in trying to connect the phenomenon of 'dreaming' to confirm the existence of semitic God (Yaweh/Allah) by claiming they govern a spirit-realm otherwise known as the dream-state. To further crush your 'pillar of dream' I will sincerely tell you that I personally do experience what is called 'phantasmagoria' an experience more weird than 'dejavu' yet never attributed it to any divinity, rather I took time to understand what it is, even before I knew it had a name. In conclusion, most people who think that to dream is an evidence of God's existence should explain why is it that in Yorubaland here, there are mysterious cases of people who after sleeping never wakes up again. Did God allowed Satan the Devil to have a field day? Well, in Yoruba belief system or theology...according to a aspect of Ifa known as Ishegun (craft of ogun) [a repository of various esoteric knowledge and science as thoughts by the 'irunmole' osanyin] contains means where one's dream state can be intruded by.....I won't go into that......and even if I should....it still wouldn't still confirm the existence of Yaweh/Allah but rather ours which is Olodumare and his 400 irunmole/orusha (Olorun is not God but a deity of the sky in Yoruba theology...Olu Orun i.e. Lord of The Sky. Orun is not heaven in Yoruba language, Orun is the blue sky while Ofurufu is the cloud. The concept of heaven and hell was borrowed into the Yoruba etymology from christeo-judaic influence. The Greeks have Atlas in their myths..Note: Mythology is neither true nor false. It is erroneous to relegate the Yoruba pantheon to a mythological status because Irumole/Orisha Ayilala do respond when *contactivated*)

2. DE JAVU
There's no such thing as a real de javu. It's a french term adopted to describe a feeling of reliving a particular event twice or more which is very different from 'Phantasmagoria' which is - in my own case involves the conscious partaking or observation of a series of real events that strongly SEEMS familiar, mostly from a dream. So what does that tell you - flashforwarding of one's own consciousness to a future time by an upped mind to be experienced later in reality. DeJavu on the other hand is the effect you feel whenever the mind recalls a repressed memory of event previously relived in a sub-conscious mind-state. It has a lot to do with incoming stream of sensory information overwritten into a SECTOR of the memory lane with SIMILAR make-up. My sister once passed a place where she spotted a red car with people passing by as normal, after a year later, she had forgotten (let assign a value to that event: 'FXK2f5y433z18r' which is repressed somewhere in the recesses of her memory bank since it's an insignificant or irrelevant stream of sensory information) but only to be recalled when she passed that same spot seeing either that same red car or a similar one with people passing by as usual, the difference this time around is that the sensory information would read almost the same as: FXL2g5y423z18y. It is the result of this conflict in storage location one feels as 'DeJavu. She told me her experience but none of us knew such thing had a name because we were like 9 - 10 years old back then. To her it was indeed very weird. Once again...another cheap attempt to validate the existence of the Abrahamic gods.

3. UNIVERSAL ORDER
What a gimmick! You even shot yourself with a Russian Roulette. Are you aware that your analysis up there about planetary order, microbes, etc were all knowable thanks to science - the enemy of Abrahamic faiths. Talking about order...then tell me why is Uranus not obeying that order in it clock-wise orbit round the sun? Science explores and understand how things work, using that knowledge to the benefit or detriment of mankind. If anyone really want to know how everything began...I recommend the study of Yoruba Theology as espoused in Ifa. It had long provided answers to the tough debate that the Chicken came before the Egg. Genesis of Earthling.

4. CAUSE AND EFFECT
To quote you:

for every cause there is definitely an effect.
Ofcourse we already know that as a scientific axiom whose origin isn't from any of the revealed books. Please refer to the First Law of Motion to be further cleared in that.

there is life on earth and the universe is well balanced
Have you explored the whole universe for you to assert the whole universe is 'well balanced'? Define balance within the context of your usage, How do you know there isn't chaos happening somewhere in another galaxy gazillion of light years away right now? How are you or the bible so sure Earth is the only planet that has life form? How would you describe as exploding over-densed gas also known as 'star'...Chaotic? Orderly?

something (or someone) must have caused it
Something - YES (science of Evolution and Big Bang Theory)
Someone - NO (not an omni-potent God who after creating the heavenly bodies still needs to REST on the seventh day) Have you heard about the omni-potent paradox before? Can an god be so omnipotent that it would create a stone so heavy that it can never carry? Duh!.......even in Yoruba theology...Olodunare whom Ifa never address it as neither a he nor a she wasn't credited as the creator of the universe. It just says it is 'awamaridi' i.e. It that is searched but never found....Olodumare isn't the same with the Jewish 'Yaweh/Jeovah' nor the Arabic 'Allah' because their characteristics completely differs. The Christian God (Yaweh/Jeovah) has an adversary known as Satan the Devil. The Yorubas Olodumare has no adversary, though there's a passage in deep Ifa that says 'Owo ni kan lo wo oju Olodumare' i.e. (Out of the 400 irunmoles/oruishas sent to ile-aiye (earth), it is only the irunmole called 'Owo' (money) that challenged Olodumare as saying 'he/she has become more popular and famous than Olodumare their Master, and so Olodumare laid 'ge-gun fun' (pronounced a curse on it) that 'won ma ma wa e kiri gbo gbo ojo ile aiye, iwo na ama wa won' meaning everyone would be searching for the proud and famous irunmole/orisha called 'Owo' and vice versa....this is 'deism'. Our ancestors understood the climate, weather and meteorology and heuhemerised these knowledge into a personification called Shango identified as the deity of justice and revenge not the erroneous 'God of Thunder' like Thor or Zeus. There are babalawos who still retain that knowledge of invoking rain or holding one.

Check out my post here: https://www.nairaland.com/961735/nigeria-better-off-leaders-swears


it couldnt have all happened out of nothing
If you were born into a stone age era, you'd probably think there's someone or something moving the winds, breeze and air. Elementary science explains that movement of air or wind is as a result of convective factors such as the difference in the rate of rapid evaporation due to massive heat and rainfall. My point been if certain conditions occurs their certainly going to be an effect. It is that conditions in the field of 'origin of human existence' some conveniently chose to reason as a 'the causer'. An good analogy is when certain conditions are established in your anatomy, the result is to fart. Did you cause it? No, the condition did. Yet another weak throw to dislodge atheism.

5. LIFE ON EARTH
I'm sure I have answered this 'absurd question' somewhere up there, which is very similar to the common one asked by many Nigerian religionists whenever they can't debate intelligently, they ignorantly ask me 'who created you?' And I love to answer 'what created me is my dad's sperm and mum's egg'.

Life can NEVER come from any inanimate object
You are right but ONLY if its an object. A virus isn't an object but an organism that is either active or inactive depending on the condition. Go read about bio-genesis and isomorphism. Then again you will have to define 'Life' within religious context.

In conclusion:
I personally do experience lots of synchronicity which up till today still can't make sense of it but I very much know it has to do with my own 'mental evolution' which may be due years of 'mind experiment'. I never for once attributed my ordeals to any religion nor Ifa itself. I'm sure you must have heard about 'placebo effect' before....now take for instance a catholic old woman whose responding positive to a placebo drug may attribute her recovery to a divinity been the foundation make-up of her psyche/mentality.

Next time try attacking deist and pagans, while leaving the atheists to attack you with 'burden of proof'. Finally atheism was not imported to Africa. Our ancestors had divergent views about living (not life), they shared one belief system which is what you love to call 'idolatory'. Please define idolatory if you don't mind.

https://www.nairaland.com/985810/5-arguments-killed-atheism/2#11388760

ghostofsparta: Give me evidential proof of the three headed beasts, or Satan the Devil, or Jeovah/Yaweh, or Angel Michael or Angel Gabriel. I can give you proof of Ogun, Eshu or Shango if you demand.

edlion57: i hv car jos going for 120k name ak47

johnwell: It is pure idolatry, they are worshiping man not God. I categorize such churches like common business. This is the rising of Babylon; Nebuchadnezzar did the same and God was angry with him.

Delafruita: my admission of some spiritual realm doesnt mean i dont believe there is a "God".i said it doesnt ptove the eistence of the christian god.muslims believe there are humans and there are jinns.jinns are supposedly spiritual creatures in a parallel realm who sometimes associate with man by running spiritual errands.jinns are supposed to be powerful beings.you accused me of being a muslim on another thread and if by this submission,you feel your suspicion was correct,then so be it.however,i am not a muslim but i am not averse to learning islam.i have the quran in my house and sometimes listen to islamic sermons.i learnt as much as i could about islam just as i learnt as much as i could about xtianity and other religions.
my point about existence of jinns in the islamic world is to let you understand that man,in a quest to explain circumstances he cant fathom comes up with religious connection.my point is simply that the existence of spiritual stuff doesnt provide evidence for the xtian god

Kay 17: A man is not incapable of creating fiction. Besides, justifying his experience with Supernatural ( which suggests irrational) concludes we live in a disorganised, chaotic, randomized world!

Delafruita: the presence of another realm isnt in doubt but is it presence of another realm evidence of existence of God?in the case of capt.barbosa's dream there's apparently no doubt some power was at work but if indeed it was God,why reveal the woman's death in a dream and then do nothing to prevent it?i have a friend whose father belongs to a cult in benin.when we were doing our youth service in ondo,her father called her and told her not to go home till 6pm which was unusual.when she got home,she met her friend at her door who confessed that she came earlier in the day to spray some powder at her doorpost which would have made her run mad.she came back to confirm her "juju" had done its work only to meet a man with red wrapper at the door who struck her with a stick and she was unable to move till my friend returned.it was then my friend told me her father belonged to the ogboni confranternity and that he often-times warns her about things that will happen.
we know these powers exist but that doesnt prove the existence of the christian god

mkmyers45: Who's philosophy? How does dreaming debunk atheism?

Capt.Barbosa:
Though I consider myself irreligious but I believe there is something out there working mysteriously. If not how could anyone explain this to me?

My dad which was then in akwa ibom called me one morning to inquire about his younger sister and I told him she is fine. He went further to tell me that I should tell her not to embark on any travelling, save that she normally travel to the core northern states to purchase fresh pepper and then transport and sell them in Lagos to market women. I ask him what prompted this warning he told me he had a bad dream and he is afraid something terrible is about to happen to his sister.

I demanded more clarifications and he said. He dreamed that his sister visited him and she told him to take care of her children with such a low tone, he told her not to worry. He went further by telling me that, a moment later after spaeking to a freind, he came and met her lieing on his bed in pool of her blood with broken neck and spinal cord and that was the end of his dream.

He called me next morning and I relayed his massage to her verbally, she told me that she is not travelling during that december until after new year. Two days later my dad called me again, this time around with shaky voice commanding me to go to sulaija, that a strange man called him to inform him about an accident that just took place involving his sister and she is dead on her way to jos.

I went there saw the accident scene and she is the only fatality recorded. I examine her body in the morgue and behold she sustained injuries that almost fit the descriptions of the ones in my dads dream. After transporting the corpse back home, her son told me that it wasn't her idea to travel that day, that her freind convinced her to go with her, claiming that there is high demand of pepper in the market.

Ptolomeus: Surely you are a Christian. Your rudeness and ignorance, gives it away. I will not respond to an ignoramus.

mkmyers45: It seems you are....

mkmyers45: Ok this experience you have is limited to you because you have an active spirit man right? Have you had any dreams lately? Lets Discuss

FXKing2012: Pls dont buy, I implore u to sell as well as EU.

Zeddicus: I would have replied the Fxslave earlier but I've got a lot on my desk. So I'm not a trader because I laughed at the reply someone gave your arrogant submission? After you 'implored' him to sell what has the market done since?
Brother better stop fooling yourself. You rant biblical paragraphs everyday but you are everything else other than biblical. Even the trading you claim to be king in,even my 18year old brother has better knowledge in it than you! We all know how you joined this thread and began dishing calls left right and centre,when it was all losses and losses you ran away. Now you are back with your rubbish. Unclenna made a call based on his system and you 'implored' him to do otherwise,what does that say of you as a trader? Anyways, unlike you some of us have other things to do.
You are insulting Naijababe and Honeric..Individuals who have added value to peoples lives since this thread began. Go on,keep making a fool of yourself.

ghostofsparta: Ha! Ha! Ha!

Your punchlines are so fragile I can't help but to crumble them like the weak 5 pillars of Islam.

@Seun
I liked your response, nice one!

@MacDaddy aka LogicBoy
Like I said...I always feel your points...keep it on.

Now let me smash all these dumb religionists especially the half-knowledged ForexKing

1. DREAM
There are three phases of sleep and depending on how exhausted the body is, a dream may occur in between these phases notably during REM. REM? (Rapid Eyes Movement) Take for instance, suppose you were staring at a door-knob, your eyes fixated at the shiny metal knob and suddenly, a wall-gecko brisks by, you involuntarily move the position of your pupils from the door knob line of sight towards the location of the wall-gecko's line of sight. Such act of observation is called 'seeing' or 'watching' which is what goes on during REM because the pupil rapidly moves from one direction to another, seeing visuals, watching moving images. The next question is where does these 'visual images' comes from? There's an abstract thing called 'mind' which is responsible for our emotions, logic, intellects, reasoning and ofcourse 'imagination' which is the keypoint here been that when one imagines, one can be said to be visualising one's own thoughts e.g. 'kissing someone' or 'passing an exam' or 'surviving an accident'; kind of like watching one's own imagination. In other words the visual images seen by the eyes is generated from the mind, at this juncture I'm provided with the liberty to define 'dream' as the pre-lucid experience of visualising one's own imagination while 'dreaming' is the visual feedback of residual thoughts ex-imagined on a conscious mind, induced by the sub-conscious self. If the pupils are static, the subject would experience either a drifty or normal or deep sleep (no dream). I have dreamt about events that I wished could happen but never did, I have dreamt about nightmares that never transpired. I have had disturbing real life experience I never previously dreamt of, likewise have I had several delightful moments I never dreamt prior to. So no dreams actually come true. Your point of a dream coming true is highly subjective, unless taken metaphorically. You've only made a futile attempt in trying to connect the phenomenon of 'dreaming' to confirm the existence of semitic God (Yaweh/Allah) by claiming they govern a spirit-realm otherwise known as the dream-state. To further crush your 'pillar of dream' I will sincerely tell you that I personally do experience what is called 'phantasmagoria' an experience more weird than 'dejavu' yet never attributed it to any divinity, rather I took time to understand what it is, even before I knew it had a name. In conclusion, most people who think that to dream is an evidence of God's existence should explain why is it that in Yorubaland here, there are mysterious cases of people who after sleeping never wakes up again. Did God allowed Satan the Devil to have a field day? Well, in Yoruba belief system or theology...according to a aspect of Ifa known as Ishegun (craft of ogun) [a repository of various esoteric knowledge and science as thoughts by the 'irunmole' osanyin] contains means where one's dream state can be intruded by.....I won't go into that......and even if I should....it still wouldn't still confirm the existence of Yaweh/Allah but rather ours which is Olodumare and his 400 irunmole/orusha (Olorun is not God but a deity of the sky in Yoruba theology...Olu Orun i.e. Lord of The Sky. Orun is not heaven in Yoruba language, Orun is the blue sky while Ofurufu is the cloud. The concept of heaven and hell was borrowed into the Yoruba etymology from christeo-judaic influence. The Greeks have Atlas in their myths..Note: Mythology is neither true nor false. It is erroneous to relegate the Yoruba pantheon to a mythological status because Irumole/Orisha Ayilala do respond when *contactivated*)

2. DE JAVU
There's no such thing as a real de javu. It's a french term adopted to describe a feeling of reliving a particular event twice or more which is very different from 'Phantasmagoria' which is - in my own case involves the conscious partaking or observation of a series of real events that strongly SEEMS familiar, mostly from a dream. So what does that tell you - flashforwarding of one's own consciousness to a future time by an upped mind to be experienced later in reality. DeJavu on the other hand is the effect you feel whenever the mind recalls a repressed memory of event previously relived in a sub-conscious mind-state. It has a lot to do with incoming stream of sensory information overwritten into a SECTOR of the memory lane with SIMILAR make-up. My sister once passed a place where she spotted a red car with people passing by as normal, after a year later, she had forgotten (let assign a value to that event: 'FXK2f5y433z18r' which is repressed somewhere in the recesses of her memory bank since it's an insignificant or irrelevant stream of sensory information) but only to be recalled when she passed that same spot seeing either that same red car or a similar one with people passing by as usual, the difference this time around is that the sensory information would read almost the same as: FXL2g5y423z18y. It is the result of this conflict in storage location one feels as 'DeJavu. She told me her experience but none of us knew such thing had a name because we were like 9 - 10 years old back then. To her it was indeed very weird. Once again...another cheap attempt to validate the existence of the Abrahamic gods.

3. UNIVERSAL ORDER
What a gimmick! You even shot yourself with a Russian Roulette. Are you aware that your analysis up there about planetary order, microbes, etc were all knowable thanks to science - the enemy of Abrahamic faiths. Talking about order...then tell me why is Uranus not obeying that order in it clock-wise orbit round the sun? Science explores and understand how things work, using that knowledge to the benefit or detriment of mankind. If anyone really want to know how everything began...I recommend the study of Yoruba Theology as espoused in Ifa. It had long provided answers to the tough debate that the Chicken came before the Egg. Genesis of Earthling.

4. CAUSE AND EFFECT
To quote you:

for every cause there is definitely an effect.
Ofcourse we already know that as a scientific axiom whose origin isn't from any of the revealed books. Please refer to the First Law of Motion to be further cleared in that.

there is life on earth and the universe is well balanced
Have you explored the whole universe for you to assert the whole universe is 'well balanced'? Define balance within the context of your usage, How do you know there isn't chaos happening somewhere in another galaxy gazillion of light years away right now? How are you or the bible so sure Earth is the only planet that has life form? How would you describe as exploding over-densed gas also known as 'star'...Chaotic? Orderly?

something (or someone) must have caused it
Something - YES (science of Evolution and Big Bang Theory)
Someone - NO (not an omni-potent God who after creating the heavenly bodies still needs to REST on the seventh day) Have you heard about the omni-potent paradox before? Can an god be so omnipotent that it would create a stone so heavy that it can never carry? Duh!.......even in Yoruba theology...Olodunare whom Ifa never address it as neither a he nor a she wasn't credited as the creator of the universe. It just says it is 'awamaridi' i.e. It that is searched but never found....Olodumare isn't the same with the Jewish 'Yaweh/Jeovah' nor the Arabic 'Allah' because their characteristics completely differs. The Christian God (Yaweh/Jeovah) has an adversary known as Satan the Devil. The Yorubas Olodumare has no adversary, though there's a passage in deep Ifa that says 'Owo ni kan lo wo oju Olodumare' i.e. (Out of the 400 irunmoles/oruishas sent to ile-aiye (earth), it is only the irunmole called 'Owo' (money) that challenged Olodumare as saying 'he/she has become more popular and famous than Olodumare their Master, and so Olodumare laid 'ge-gun fun' (pronounced a curse on it) that 'won ma ma wa e kiri gbo gbo ojo ile aiye, iwo na ama wa won' meaning everyone would be searching for the proud and famous irunmole/orisha called 'Owo' and vice versa....this is 'deism'. Our ancestors understood the climate, weather and meteorology and heuhemerised these knowledge into a personification called Shango identified as the deity of justice and revenge not the erroneous 'God of Thunder' like Thor or Zeus. There are babalawos who still retain that knowledge of invoking rain or holding one.

Check out my post here: https://www.nairaland.com/961735/nigeria-better-off-leaders-swears


it couldnt have all happened out of nothing
If you were born into a stone age era, you'd probably think there's someone or something moving the winds, breeze and air. Elementary science explains that movement of air or wind is as a result of convective factors such as the difference in the rate of rapid evaporation due to massive heat and rainfall. My point been if certain conditions occurs their certainly going to be an effect. It is that conditions in the field of 'origin of human existence' some conveniently chose to reason as a 'the causer'. An good analogy is when certain conditions are established in your anatomy, the result is to fart. Did you cause it? No, the condition did. Yet another weak throw to dislodge atheism.

5. LIFE ON EARTH
I'm sure I have answered this 'absurd question' somewhere up there, which is very similar to the common one asked by many Nigerian religionists whenever they can't debate intelligently, they ignorantly ask me 'who created you?' And I love to answer 'what created me is my dad's sperm and mum's egg'.

Life can NEVER come from any inanimate object
You are right but ONLY if its an object. A virus isn't an object but an organism that is either active or inactive depending on the condition. Go read about bio-genesis and isomorphism. Then again you will have to define 'Life' within religious context.

In conclusion:
I personally do experience lots of synchronicity which up till today still can't make sense of it but I very much know it has to do with my own 'mental evolution' which may be due years of 'mind experiment'. I never for once attributed my ordeals to any religion nor Ifa itself. I'm sure you must have heard about 'placebo effect' before....now take for instance a catholic old woman whose responding positive to a placebo drug may attribute her recovery to a divinity been the foundation make-up of her psyche/mentality.

Next time try attacking deist and pagans, while leaving the atheists to attack you with 'burden of proof'. Finally atheism was not imported to Africa. Our ancestors had divergent views about living (not life), they shared one belief system which is what you love to call 'idolatory'. Please define idolatory if you don't mind.

mkmyers45: If you can't proof something then how will you ascribe it spiritualism or are you pulling a gap theory on this one? I am not denying what is not there.... Subconscious mind play YES....Dream to Reality? NO

P.S: is something wrong with your internet connection?