₦airaland Forum

LegalWolf:
You claimed you didn’t make a comment, but asked a question. Didn’t you?

The comment you referred to wasn't in absolute. It was opinionated.

LegalWolf:
Lol, I think I can be bold enough to say you are either a liar or a coward. At best, both! You made a baseless comment about my God based on your flawed perception of me.

I returned it back. And when you tried to turn around, you dare say you didn’t make a comment but asked a question.

Really? Going by your logic, is that what your Bible taught you? Is that the best your God can make out of a man?

Lol!

You're the lair here!
In my said comment, I told you I'm pointing you to what I'm seeing. How does that demean your God? Before then, I asked you questions you refused to answer. What's the lie here?

LegalWolf:
Question or comment?

What does that have to do with the current discussion?
You can decide that yourself. I have nothing to do with it.

LegalWolf:
This turanchi is escapist, was the quote a comment a question, shikena?

Stop dancing galala up and down. Question or comment?

Is it the escapist comment we're talking about now? When did we make this jump?

LegalWolf:
Lol, your dancing around the bush won’t save you.



Ideally, I wouldn’t bother to even quote the comment but since it is on the same page and does not involve more than 2 minutes scroll, here you have it:



So are you telling me this is a question? Ehn?

Hahahaha! You can quote this but you can't quote where I said you can't understand God's logic?
Yeah, in the quote you posted, I said I was pointing out what I could see. If I were you I would explain if I think you saw wrongly.
I didn't even talk in absolutes.

LegalWolf:
Lol, if that makes sleep better at night, run with that narrative. I’ve given you a map to look for it. Look!

Legalwolf! Is this how you are in real life or you're just behaving this way because it's a faceless forum?

LegalWolf:
Lol, are you insinuating you don’t have character flaws? Did I ever tell you that I’m the best representation of my God’s creation before you made your baseless comment?

Apparently, your loyalty is not to logic or even God but your religion. Religions don’t save

Which comment did I make friend? I only asked a question.

LegalWolf:
Pretend that you are a fool? LOL! You called yourself a name you think best reflects who you are not me. Again, my comment is a map for you to get where I made the inference. You have everything you need to find it, I won't help you.

Regards!

Another mis representation of comments you've been known for.
I don't expect you to point out where I said you can't understand God's logic. I know you'll avoid doing that since you've searched and found out I never said so.

LegalWolf:
If by your logic, you or TenQ are the best Yhwh can make out of a man, then he is certainly not worthy of worship or even being considered a God!

Your consideration of or thoughts about God doesn't matter. Would you show me character flaws you found in me for you to be able to cast aspersions on the Almighty God? Have I even drawn conclusions about your God before you hastily posted what you thought I'm thinking? Your loyalty is to your religion and not to your soul? Religions don't save.

LegalWolf:
?


Pray, I beseech you, to tell me the logical connection between what you’ve written and what I wrote? Can’t claim any iota of sense in it!



Your folks thrive on emotional blackmail than logic and that won’t cut it for me. If you like, weep all the sentiments in the world, I’ll keep calling TenQ a potential thief till he dies.

Of course, he knows the reason I call him that. And he’s adamant on not changing. And I’ll insist on calling by his essence.

But to ask: what exactly is your business with him? Is he complaining to you?

I'm only pointing out what I could see as the best your God can make out of a man.

LegalWolf:
Lol, are you whining me. My modified comment is a map to get to the part I was referring to. Go do your homework

This is an escapist comment. Rather than apologise for the error, you pretend as if the person you're dealing with is a fool.

LegalWolf:
Okay



I’ve referred you in my previous post to the statement and example justifying the inference. Asking me to do that again is to repeat myself. I wrote in plain English not Tamil and I would not oblige your kind request.

Modified: running through the post, I clearly underlined key statements in your post (apart from the example) that justifies my inference. Lol 😂 ! I have better things to do than unnecessary back and forth

T for thanks anyways

You can't quote the said statement? Your referenced statement does not address my position. Would you quote the part of the referred statement that insinuates that I said you cannot understand God's logic?

LegalWolf:
Okay, granted that you got wind of the substance of that post, which is about forgery. And it is also good that you, if I understand you correctly, refuse to take the view of whether there was forgery or not.

Anyways, TenQ and I go a very long way and that is just one out of many. Way too many to even mention. I will NEVER EVER cease to call TenQ a potential thief for the many reasons I’ve given him. Whether it is alien to your spirit or not is none of my concern.

Thank you

I didn't ask that, it being alien to my spirit should be your concern.
What should be your concern is that you're telling us the type of God you serve as well as the fruits that that God has caused you to bear.
I can't even stomach that against my enemy. If you fill comfortable with that, so much so that, you cannot stop, that speaks volumes about your religion. And you mean, you'll enter Allah's paradise with such attitude? You mean that's the best Allah can bring out of you? Even if he has done anything to deserve such, you mean there can't be any forgiveness for him? You mean you don't have any iota of love for him? You don't care whether you're hurting his spirit? It doesn't matter to you? You can sleep comfortably after wishing such evils on a man like yourself? This is epic.

LegalWolf:
I don’t like repeating myself. Let me just clarify one thing: the screenshot you attached is apparently not what advocatejare said. Whenever he insults my God or Prophet or even myself, when responding, I replace those names with yhwh. And he does the same! TenQ does the same. He will never tell you that what I did is forgery, run through our posts. And that’s the danger of a one-sided perspective clouded by sentiment!

On the inference, do you know the meaning of “essentially” when used in the context I did? I’ve actually explained myself in depth in one of my post, kindly refer back to them as it is futile repeating myself.

T for thanks anyways

If you, TenQ and Advocatejare are used to editing one another's posts and attributing the edited version to the original author, the three of you are guilty of the same offence. You all know it's wrong. That's what could explicitly stand as forgery.
Regarding the inference, I have rejected your previous explanation on the grounds that it does not address my actual position. You're trying to attack a logic that never existed.
I never asked you to repeat yourself. I said you should refer me to where I said you cannot understand God's logic, or at least to any sentence from which you drew such an inference. You attributed a position to me which was never my position in the first place.

LegalWolf:
In five sentences, can you please summarize TenQ position and my position. At least you’ve read my allegation and the response to it on the thread, so please kindly oblige with a summary so I even know if you’re of Truth or not.

Thank you once more

Both of you were arguing about sneer quotes or no sneer quotes. My position is not on whether sneer quotes were used or not; my position is that no forgery has occurred to have warranted you maligning a man like yourself, calling him 'potential thief' in almost every post of yours. You even began wishing him armed robbery that'll lead to death in the order of Lawrence Aninih. That's extremely wicked. On what basis! You didn't even take caution from the fact that he wasn't giving it back to you in same manner. Haba! I can't imagine myself treating a fellow human being that way. We serve a loving God who has commanded us to love all men unconditionally. Such kind of attitude is too alien and foreign to my spirit.

TenQ:
You may please check out this correspondence for your information of what your friend (even when he knows the truth, decided on a path of slander,) called a "FORGE" .

https://www.nairaland.com/7494226/according-islam-mohammed-failed-cardinal#119387228

Haba! I didn't see any form of forgery on that thread. You simply paraphrased his entire position about the topic in few words. That isn't forgery since you never attribute the statement to him. What you attributed to his was the claim which was truly his position. If he says that wasn't his position, then, it means he's saying your assertion was correct. And that's when you could have been guilty of falsely alleging legalwolf; you wouldn't even still be guilty of forgery in that case.
I've pointed his own case to him, which was clear forgery. He quoted advocatejare, edited what advocatejare said in that quote to make it look as if it was advocatejare's direct statement. That's forgery for which no one has called him a potential thief.
See, I don't know how one can be serving the true God and be comfortable insulting people endlessly everyday. What type of God is producing such volumes of insults and slander from one person endlessly. I think only Allah can do that.
I find it difficult to even reply his insults because the Spirit of God in me wouldn't allow me to behave like a child of the devil. Most times when legalwolf insults, he's the one who deserves the insults for misreading or misinterpreting what was said to him, yet, he would insult you on the basis of what you never said or did.

LegalWolf:
Have I ever called advocatejare a potential thief? Or any derogatory name (other than being “stray”)? Please tell me where I did. And on the reason I call him and TenQ those names, they are aware and I do not intend to explain myself to you.

My dear legalwolf, you still failed to get me in this simple matter I upbraided you on. What I said was that, 'The very thing you claimed TenQ did to you for which you started calling him names, you did same to advocatejare, but he never called you names for it.' Look at the image below to understand what I have just repeated.

I don’t mean to be rude, your logic doesn’t make sense. And I made the most perfect comparison to your example. In fact, if ANY objective person listens to my argument, he’ll see the truth of it. You did not fault my logic, but essentially claim I cannot understand God’s logic as it is understandable in the spiritual realm . That is insincere and in my mind vary dubious argument to make.

Every logic ever presented to you never makes sense because you're always seeing in the opposite direction of what is being said. Kindly refer me to where I said you can't understand God's logic. I never said such things, and nothing in my post leaned towards such an assertion.
For clarity, I said God's logic is different from man's, therefore, if you're seeing everything from man's viewpoint, you would miss what God is saying. Go back to that my post and read again for yourself.
I don't want to continue this argument, otherwise, I wouldn't even point you to this error. You would insult and attack a logic that was not presented to you in the first place. We would overlook the insults, and try to provide fuller explanations, yet you would continue to turn conversations upside down. Even insinuating what the poster never insinuated.
First, let's see where I said you can't understand God's logic, or point me to any statement I made from which you made such an inference.

[q]If it is the spirit that will understand your God logic, that is fine. But I’m better off with a God who invites me to think and HIS ways accord with reason.[/q]
Had in been you were in my position, you would rain insults, saying the individual you're discussing with does not have brains. But you see, it's different with us. We won't insult you. Please just point me out to where I said you can't understand God's logic.

[q]All I see is a futile effort to avoid the obvious. Your folks woke up to write a post at their own discretion and I challenged them on it. So what has the Quran gotten to do with the obvious topic of the post?[/q]
Nothing I've said so far ever warrants this type of response. You're the one who has grossly misunderstood me.

[q]You were the one who engaged me not the other way round. It’s more waste of time for me engaging with intellectually dubious people as well.
T for thanks anyways[/quote]I already queried your allegations. I'll be glad to see what I've done or said wrong.

LegalWolf:
Lol, you write a lot. And frankly speaking, you’ll do well summarising than unnecessary statements. I’ll get to the point.




I perfectly understand how you feel. One of the reasons I call TenQ a potential thief was because he forged a statement and attributed it to me. Here, your words were not in quote. I paraphrased you and the words in brackets are mine.

Anyways, we both agree the Bible is an imperfect book. Where we differ is on the question of degree. 🤝



Irrelevant rants



Still irrelevant!

(underlined mine)

Very interesting to see this argument. So, in essence, I cannot understand your scriptures logic not because of any defect in my thinking, but because I’m human ( an essence you share ).

Just to recap: your Scripture’s logic is basically meaningless to humans but could have meaning in the spiritual realm. I love this! Do you know every religion could make exactly the same argument, including worshippers of Satan?

(underlined mine)

But blood of Goats and bulls and the ashes of heifer that was required by yhwh to ceremoniously cleanse people is not physical huh? 🙄For reference, see Hebrews 9:13

What about blood of animals that was required before to be shed before there could be forgiveness in Hebrews 9:22. Are those blood physical or spiritual huh? Lol 😜😜😜




(Grossly, manifestly and inherently) imperfect book, again 🤦‍♂️

What you claimed TenQ did to you, you did same to advocatejare, did he call you a thief because of that? You're simply bearing a fruit that tells us so much about your roots.
If according to your logic, the only conclusion you could draw from the primary school math analogy is that humans cannot understand the Bible, then kudos to you. If humans can't understand the Bible, why do many of us do? You've failed to see that, to grasp spiritual truth, you must not place a humanly defined expectation.
Man's sperm originates from his backbone according to Allah. Can't you see it's human logic? Any human could arrive at this kind of thinking, but God did it differently, and science discovered it to tell us the truth. If the Quran can be so wrong on mere scientific truths, what's the guarantee that it's right on the spiritual?
I do not intend to continue in this argument. I've presented the truth as best I could. TenQ has played his part (God bless him). We also asked you probing questions which you deliberately evaded, meanwhile, we answered all questions of yours.
It's a waste of time dealing with insincere people. And as a result, I wouldn't want to engage you any further on this thread.
Thanks for your time.

LegalWolf:
Now that you’ve broken off, how on earth would I be able to eat? Ehn Lawrence Aninih, sorry TenQnih?

Anyways, we have established three key things in our engagement:

1. The message of the messiah is nothing other than human sacrifice. You’ve made us understand that if you seek for repentance or even live faithfully to the laws of your God without believing the biblical narrative of Jesus being killed, there is no atonement for you. In other words, your God needed the blood of Jesus in order to forgive.

Curiously, I’ve always asked whether your God would take cassava, garri, dodo and agbado in place of blood but you’ve never answered me. You or the stray advocatejare may be of help.

2. FxMasterz asserts that the Bible is (grossly, manifestly and inherently) imperfect. This view is apparently shared by you and I think we are all unanimous on this.

3. Your attempts to veer off-track was curbed. You couldn’t even argue any point despite our willingness to hear you out.

Again, thank you for your time. Remember after working very hard for 6 days, the Bible said yhwh rested on the 7th. See Gen 2:3. I’ll be resting tomorrow and won’t entertain further questions.

Till Monday! 😎

"FxMasterz asserts that [b] the Bible is (grossly, manifestly and inherently) imperfect."

That's falsehood. An assertion that the Bible is not a perfect book is not indicative of it being grossly, manifestly and inherently imperfect!
Why add to my words? Anyway, that's what Mohammed does and you must follow in his footsteps. We shouldn't expect much from the followers of a man who made Amram the father of Mary who lived 3,000 yrs after him.
Now, it's good that TenQ is cutting off from you since you've not been sincere in your contributions here. You've avoided so many questions that attack your errornous position. You've also avoided all the questions that exposes the falsehood in your Quran, always saying nothing to address the issues raised but talking all the time. There's no need to keep on discussing with someone so lacking in sincerity.
I'll say these things to you as my farewell message on this thread:
On several occasions, I've read you saying certain things don't cut it for you regarding the Words of God or that some things are not logical; and that's been the basis for your rejection of Truth.
God cannot be boxed within the ambits of your logical environment. If your expectations of God are logically satisfied, then that isn't God. You're either dealing with a man like yourself, or an entity whose logics are at par with man's. If everything your Quran teaches you is logically correct by man's standard, then, your Quran was man-made.
God's logic is different from man's. God is Spirit. The spirit realm has its own logic, and the logic of the physical realm in which you and I dwell cannot satisfy the logic of that realm.
If a student goes to school with his logical expectations always being fulfilled, then, the teacher is his logical mate not worthy to be his teacher. A teacher is someone who knows far better than you, such that he challenges your logical expectations all the time.
The spirit realm is a higher realm. You can't apply the logic of this lower physical realm to that realm. If a primary school pupil would apply the logic of primary school mathematics to higher maths, he'll fail. For example, the logic of primary school says 3 - 7 = Impossible, but higher maths says 3 - 7 = -4. You're like that primary school pupil who challenges the logic of higher maths simply because it doesn't fall within the expectations of your primary school logic. If the logic of the physical realm is applied to the spirit realm, you'll arrive at a wrong destination just as the primary school pupil would. God's logic challenges human logic, that's one of those things that make Him God.
It's logical to think that the water of ablution can purify the soul, just because according to man's logic, water is a purifier. However, water is physical while the soul is spiritual. Physical water cannot have impact on a spiritual entity such as the soul, neither can it cleanse a spiritual excrement such as sin. Man's logic fails here, and unfortunately, the logic of the Quran is man's logic.
Let me round up with the following scripture:
Isa.55.8
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Farewell, friend.

LegalWolf:
Lol, why struggling to explain the obvious. We both agree that the Bible is (grossly, completely and absolutely) imperfect.

Your explanation of human involvement does not cut it for me. God can perfect all things but cannot perfect his message to humanity. Abegiiiiii!

On the Quran, there is nothing similar in your religion to compare with. What we can compare to the Bible is probably our fabricated (not sahih or da’if but fa I rated) Hadith.

I have absolutely nothing to discuss with you. And thank you again for having the courage to tell us the Bible is an imperfect book. God bless you!

Cc: Potential Thief TenQ

God does not superimpose Himself on man. Man has a freewill. God didn't create him as a zombie. God can only pass messages through imperfect men. He doesn't shut down their human elements to express Himself. Satan is the one who does that. Satan would forcefully take control of a man's entire being and use him for his selfish ends. God isn't so. He uses you only to the level at which you make yourself available. God's message to humanity is perfect. The Bible is man's word used to convey God's message. Inside man's imperfect words is God's perfect word. That's why the Bible isn't the Words (plural) of God; it's the Word (singular) of God. The Word is a perfect Word conveyed through the imperfect words of man.
To the ordinary man, the Bible is an ordinary book, but to people who have spiritual discernment, it is the Book of Life.
We're using our limited human language, resources and experience to convey spiritual truths to you. We're imperfect beings but the truth we're conveying carry the fruits of eternal life.
If you're dodging the questions TenQ has been asking you about Allah's scientific blunders in the Quran as well as my Amram-Mary historical problem, your claims about your Quran is deceptive. You're not deceiving us actually but yourself.
May the Lord grant you discernment.

AntiChristian:
We have told you the writers largely wrote without any spirit of God anywhere as Luke 1:1-4 said:
Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

1. What does "Many" in red above mean?
2. What does the bolded Green Sentence mean?
3. What does the bolded blue sentence mean?

Luke is one of the Gospels! If it is clear like day that it was written as such then all these Peter/Paul's Letters to the Corinthians you are reading that are not Gospels are far worse!

Explain to me what you understand by the sentence "..all scripture is given by the inspiration of God." I think a misunderstanding of this scripture is the basis of your errornous position.

LegalWolf:
LOL But FxMasterz, you and I all know that the Bible is (grossly, inherently and imperfecly) imperfect. Isn't it? That should make us all smile and be happy.

Looooool. Lawrence Anninih, oh TenQnih the future thief

Respond to him. This is not the time to dribble.

LegalWolf:
Is it from a book that you acknowledge to be 'imperfect' that you expect me to place reliance on??

Abeg abeg!!!

cc: Potential Thief TenQ

When we say the Bible is imperfect, it's because of the human involvement. Humans aren't perfect but God uses human imperfections to achieve His goals in the world. Do you understand this scripture below?

1Cor.13.9 - 12
"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
Those are honest words. The above scripture is the basis on which I told you that the Bible isn't a perfect book. God is the only Perfect Beign in the entire universe. Man is the only tool God can use on earth. God uses imperfect men to bring men to a perfect God.
Tell me, is your Quran a perfect book? If your Quran bears this testimony of itself, then let's put it to the test starting from the Amram - Mary problem I pointed out yesterday. How can a perfect book not know that Amram and Mary lived 3,000yrs apart for it to call Mary the daughter of Amram? Once again, is your Quran a perfect book? Was your Mohammed a perfect man?

MrCodeSolo:
Ask a Christian a question about Jesus, and he might answer you with a quotation from Paul. But who tells us Paul speaks for Jesus? Why do we need Paul to speak for Jesus when Jesus speaks for himself? Why do we need Paul to speak for Jesus when Jesus himself warns us: “Be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time?” (Mark 13:23). If Jesus has told us all we need to know, why do we need someone else to add to, or subtract from, what he said? What was Jesus divine message according to the synoptic gospel?

How did Paul's teachings differ from Jesus?
Jesus teaches the works (not grace) that make for our salvation in the Beatitudes (Matt 5,5&7, Lk 6:20-49) and most elaborately in Matt 25:31-46 but Paul preached that salvation is by grace (unmerited gift) in Ep 2:8-9, a concept that Jesus never mentioned or even implied

Paul Contradicts Jesus in so many ways as listed below;

On how one becomes a child of God:

Paul says:
Rom.8
[23] and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
Gal.4
[5] to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

Jesus says:
John.3
[3] Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is begotten from above,* he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is begotten of the flesh is flesh, and that which is begotten of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be begotten from above.*

* John 3:3 and 3:7 are the author's translations. These differ from the RSV only in the expression "begotten from above" that replaces "born anew' in the RSV. "Born anew" does not represent the fullness of what Jesus is stating here, and does not correspond to the literal translation of the Greek, anothen (a()nwqen).

On the number and identity of teachers:

Paul says:
1Cor.12
[28] And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third, teachers,
Eph.4
[11] And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
1Tim.2
[7] For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
2Tim.1
[11] For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher,


Jesus says:
Matt.23
[8] But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren.



On being justified:

Paul says:
Rom.3
[24] they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,
[28] For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.
Rom.5
[9] Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.


Jesus says:
Matt.12
[37] for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.


On sacrifices to God:

Paul says:
1Cor.5
[7] For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed.
Eph.5
[2] And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

Jesus says:
Matt.9
[13] Go and learn what this means, `I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.'


On remuneration for preaching the gospel:

Paul says:
1Tim.5
[17] Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;
[18] for the scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain," and, "The laborer deserves his wages.
1Cor.9
[11] If we have sown spiritual good among you, is it too much if we reap your material benefits?
[12] If others share this rightful claim upon you, do not we still more?


Jesus says:
Matt.10
[7] And preach as you go, saying, `The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
[8] Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying, give without pay.




On the God of the dead:

Paul says:
Rom.14
[9] For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Jesus says:
Luke.20
[38] Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living;


On the time of the coming of the Lord:

Paul says:
Rom.13
[12] the night is far gone, the day is at hand.


Jesus says:
Luke.21
[8] Take heed that you are not led astray; for many will come in my name,
saying, . . . `The time is at hand!' Do not go after them.




Christians are indoctrinated, that the Good news means the whole new testaments, despite Paul didn’t preach the good news of the kingdom gospel, but the Grace of God gospel.
Christians are indoctrinated, that everything in the bible is from God, nothing else but truth , despite God said, Job friends spoke falsely about God.

Christians are trained to accept everything in the bible , doubting and questioning the validity of the teaching are considered heresy , Those whom dare to ask will be subjected to modern persecutions such as excommunicated, shunned, demoted, kick out from church ministries.
Church have no basic concept of truth and subsequently don’t know how to verify the truth, believing in contradictions is norm just like the ones mentioned above, for example: Christians believe it is impossible to be righteous, but at the same time also believe that Noah and Jobs are righteous persons.
Church encourage people to read the bible, but don’t have idea on how it should be read and learned, manipulated interpretations to fit man's made doctrines, Paul letters could contradict Jesus words

Main stream churches foundation mostly based on Paul teaching, criticizing Paul means criticizing the church, everybody get offended, they will perceive it as an attempt to destroy the church. Not realizing that God's truth can't be build upon false foundation. when you have actually come to the point of discerning the bible truth regardless of whether you believe that Paul teaches the same as Jesus, it is to me pretty clear if you compare them side by side. As listed and mentioned above.
And when you lay Paul and Jesus teaching side by side, It is definitely like comparing synthetic grass over real grass, we the non-Christians know synthetic grass is different than real grass, but a Christian would blindly agree that synthetic or real grass are still grass and so is the pauline-doctrines to Jesus true and divine message.

2Pet.3.15-16
"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

1Cor.2.14
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Antichristian,
Legalwolf
Drlateef

LegalWolf:
I don’t mean to be rude, but please try and be succinct in your exposition of issues. You’re not writing a PhD Thesis and overly long essays don’t cut it for anyone (in fact, this piece of advise would help in your professional life)



This is false. The only issue with your logic is that the Rabbi or disagreement in Judaism and Islam don’t claim to be inspired by God, or do they?

All Christian letters and gospels are said to be inspired, supposedly by Holy Ghost, yet they differ. And you expect us to believe you?






Have you heard of the Dead Sea scrolls? Do you know about other ancient manuscripts held in various museums older than the ones the Bible was derived from?

Just surf online and you’ll see the differences between the original text and what we have. Even when you read Bible gateway translation of the Bible, do you know what certain footnotes symbolises?



This epistle to legalwolf does not cut it for me. What exactly do you aim to achieve with this?




Again, the Quran is not in issue. And neither is the story of the Prophet or anything. You won’t deflect issues by raising questions on the Quran. The topic is gospel explained for Muslims and not the Quran explained for Christians. So please don’t lose focus and let us deal with inherently logical implication of the imperfect book called bible. How difficult is it to stick to issues?

Are you scared that you’ve been bursted?

You only burst lies and crimes. There's nothing to burst in Christianity.

You don't seem to get the import of the word 'inspiration' as used by Peter. I gave a slight glimpse to the use of that word. They were MOVED, MOTIVATED OR INSPIRED TO WRITE. They were not dictated to. I hope I'm clear enough. Most of those who wrote wouldn't have written anything without a nudging in their hearts to write. So the issue of the disagreements I wrote formally still stands.
We have scrutinized the dead sea scrolls and several ancient manuscripts that have survived. We cannot see these distinctions you're talking about.
The topic is 'The Gospel Explained to Muslims', but there's being a progression that points you to look inwards in other to understand why you need the gospel. And that's why I want you to clarify how the Quran could be safely presented as the verbatim word of God, and how the prophet you follow could be safely called a HOLY Prophet of God whose messages are worth following.

LegalWolf:
LOL! I asked a very simple question. You did everything BUT nothing in answering the question. Like I said earlier in the morning, it is draining arguing with a christian. Not that they do not have brain, but they deliberately close their eyes to the truth. You wrote so much on things outside the scope of the conversation and I would not belabour myself responding to them. I will just ask few questions on things that are relevant.




You and I agree that Jesus is Jewish and he followed the Torah, but how come those knowledgeable in the Torah disagree with Christian teachings? That it is non-reflective of what the Torah has been saying for ages? Why on earth should we prefer 'letters' to clarify the christian doctrines over those of other rabbi who claimed that these teachings are wrong in truth and principle? What gives us comfort that. assuming all the books of the Bible were actually authored by whom they claim wrote them, Apostle Paul for example was a true apostle of God?



This is interesting. Do you know that the Bible was reproduced in history through copying (or translation) by scribes? And do you know that the more ancient versions of the Bible that we have are quite distinct from the version in which your KJV is based on? Do you discrepancies at some fundamental levels exist? Do you know that the original writer may not lie but later copyist lied by changing the language to suit their narratives?? Are you aware of this part of your history?

Just a yes or no answer suffices please

(underlined mine)

This is interesting take and I think go home and smile knowing fully well that the Bible is not a perfect book - a grossly imperfect book incapable of being perfected. Again, thank you for your honesty. But here is the problem - your analogy is flawed and suffers from false quivalence in logic. The different media outlets that reported Shekau's death NEVER claimed that they were inspired by God, or did they?
So if one holy spirit claims to inspire multiple people to write about an event and BUT guided them to write conflicting reports, what gives us confidence that other things the holy spirit inspired - even the core of its teaching - would be true? Does the spirit inspiring the writers an author of cofusion? If it cannot inspire several people to write correctly on minute details, can we trust it to even inspire at all not to talk of inspiring biblical writers to write on core details

I don't need to answer the questions you poised about Islamic lies about the suffering servant. I'm the one who'll answer them when you tell the lies. Hope you got me right? My aim was to bring you some enlightenments to the flaws of your supposed holy book.
Not all those knowledgeable with the Torah disagree with Christian teachings. Paul and all the disciples of Christ were all knowledgeable on the Torah. There are disagreements within Jewry itself. There are diagreements within Christianity too. There are diagreements even within Islam. Are all Arabs Muslims? Are there not Christian Arabs as well? The disagreements are not the yardsticks for measuring authenticity. We have Rabbis who are Christians today, and we have those who are not. Paul himself was a highly knowledgeable Rabbi in his days before God arrested him.
Bring out the ancient biblical manuscripts that are now considered "quite distinct from the kjv" to use your actual words. We need to have concrete evidence of this assertion. We need to see this distinction.
The Christian letters were not written to clarify the Torah but rather to clarify teachings within Christiendom itself.
Apostle Paul was a true apostle of God. There are several accounts on him in the Bible from those who knew him. Even Peter endorsed of Paul in his Epistles. The encounter Paul had was confirmed by Ananias according to Luke. Ananias was a leading Christian in Damascus in Paul's days. Paul never mentioned him in his own writings but it was this Ananias that received instructions from the Lord Jesus to go meet Paul as soon as he arrived Damascus. Following the instructions of the Lord, Ananias prayed for him to get his eyes restored and be baptised in the Holy Spirit.
Paul never commissioned himself to Christian evangelism. He was commissioned by the church. The 12 Apostles laid hands on him. I don't know what Islam told you guys about Paul but I'm aware that he's the most hated Christian among Muslims.
Paul's apostolic ministry was such a very mighty one. After encountering Jesus, he had to go to Arabia where he de-learned his rabbinical teachings in order to learn Christ. After 3yrs he returned to Jerusalem and presented himself for scrutiny before the apostles who then gave him the right hand of fellowship after ascertaining that his doctrines were the doctrines of Christ. He was one of the most used of God in his days as we can see from the testimonies concerning him. God inspired people to write. That does not mean God dictated what they wrote. He inspired or moved them to write. For instance, God may move me to take up a profession, that does not mean God is the One doing the profession for me. I could be moved of God to take up a profession, yet my imperfections could still reflect in that profession until I master it.
Yeah, the Bible is imperfect. Even the Bible says it. However, the writers were sincere. And that sincerity and honesty is what God blesses. It is that sincerity and honesty that God uses to bless the world. Hope that's clear?
Can we say the same of the Quran. If you give the same type of scrutiny you give the Bible to your Quran, your Quran cannot stand. A supposed book that has the word of God verbatim from heaven should be extremely perfect. You carefully dodged the Mary and Amram allegation of your Quran isn't it? You would close your eyes to the flaws in your own book while you involve yourself in other matters that are higher than you. You speak very arrogantly and yet so ignorantly.
There are flaws in your supposed prophet himself. How can you not see that? Your book itself is a book full of lies, how can you not see that? You refuse to see it because as I said, you've determined not to hear anything else apart from the lies you've been told. That's exactly what you did now, even avoiding the Mary - Amram problem in your Quran. There are several others. Too many to mention. How can you right now prove to me that your Quran were the direct words of God almighty? Go on and and prove it. I'll be waiting.
In doing so, absolve Mohammed from all his character flaws. Give him all the excuses you can. I'll be waiting. Disprove the Amram-Mary allegation and all the others I shall bring up. I'll see how your book measures up.

LegalWolf:
So what’s the “Islamic lies” told to us?

Bro, you are educated, and should know better than this. Kindly hear me out.
The Islamic lies and propaganda are very many. Very many, including propaganda told to block Muslims from believing the Bible or listening to Christians at all.
Apart from the many distortions in the Quran, they've told you that the Bible has been corrupted by Christians just so that you would never trust the book. A propaganda that no sane human being should believe. Let me tell you why I said so.
How could the Bible have been corrupted? The Bible has two parts, the old and new testaments. Both Jews and Christians use the old testament scriptures. If the Old Testament has been corrupted by Christians, how come the Christian corruption and its Jewish uncorrupted counterpart still tally? It is a known fact that Christians and Jews would never sit on the same table to work on religion, let alone sitting together to corrupt a book. Moreso, if a book has been corrupted, there should be the uncorrupted versions to prove the claims. The lies here are so so obvious.
The Bible was not written initially as a religious text. The Old testament was a collection of honest writings detailing Israel's history, laws as well as the individual journals kept by prophets concerning their own prophecies. Everything was written only for the Jewish community, not for the world. So, there's no logical reason for deliberate deception. They wrote in honesty for the next generation of their children.
It was subsequent generations that compiled the writings into books due to the inspirations they derived from them. These books then formed the basis of religious doctrines as we have them today. The original intention was not so. Therefore no reason for deliberate deception. The new testament on the other hand is a collection of letters written to individuals or groups to correct a notion or clarify a misconception. They were never intended for religious use as well. Why should the writers lie?
Now, there could be divergences in records. Everyone wrote Independent of the other, and some of those writers even lived thousands of years apart.
The Bible isn't a perfect book because God used imperfect humans to do the writings. Each person wrote truthfully to the best of his knowledge. However, there have never been contradiction in prophecies which are inspired by the Spirit of God. Historical accounts could be imperfect because men write only what they know, meanwhile, their knowledge may be imperfect.
You can bear me witness that in every event, human accounts do always vary. For example, how did Abubarka Shekau die? One media report said he blew himself off to avoid capture, another said his captors gave him the options of blowing up himself or becoming their subject, yet in another account, we heard he was killed by his captors. The accounts were all made in honesty by those who wrote but human imperfections crept in. However, the most important thing is that Shekau died. We cannot deny this truth on the grounds of the contradictory reports. The same applies to the Bible. Did Jesus die and resurrect? Yes, He did. The imperfect records of His followers about how it happened not withstanding. The truth is that He died and resurrected.
The issue of the Quran is different. Someone from far away Arabia came many millennia later to rewrite the history of a people and their prophets, and people believe him just because he said one God spoke to him. No one was witness to anything he saw or heard. His prohethood was on account of his personal testimony alone. No witness. Everything in the Quran was a one man thing. I laughed when I saw an Islamic text where Mohammed was doing self promotion: "On the last day, people would need someone to help them plead with Allah, then, they'll go to Adam, Adam would then say blah blah blah, then Allah would say to me, then I would do this and that," blah blah blah. What sort of thing is that? Especially for someone who afterwards said he doesn't know his own fate.
What should we say about the many lies and distortions in the book itself? For example, how could Mary the mother of Jesus be the daughter of Amram who lived over 3,000 years before her? Amram had 3 children through his wife Zochebed: Maryam the first born, Aaron the second and Moses the last born.
Mohammed obviously thought that Maryam the daughter of Amram was the same as Mary the mother of Jesus. How could they be the same when Amram was a man who lived and died 3,000+ yrs before Mary in Egypt. Mary on the other hand lived and died in Jerusalem all her life. This and many other historical blunders abound in the Quran. If you happen to be a Jew, won't you feel violated that someone has distorted your history so? He rewrote the history of a whole people single handedly, and Muslims believe that his singular account is correct, while rejecting the account of the people about themselves which have been penned down thousands of years before Mohammed. Whose accounts are supposed to be correct, outsider accounts or accounts from the horse's mouths?
I do not want to keep arguing about religious matters because it's always an endless exercise in futility. There's no need to present truth to someone who has made up his/her mind never to believe anything other than the lies he/she has been told.

LegalWolf:
Lol! You all are so so predictable. I haven’t just read the whole Chapter 53 but the preceding chapters 40 to 54. Ill come back to this later on in the afternoon or so

Lol! I know you've read it, that was already clear when you used the word 'sufering servant' in your question. I also know the Islamic lies that have been told you about the scripture. I deliberately quoted it because I knew it was what you were expecting. Lol. So, bring it on once you're set.

LegalWolf:
Hey TenQ,

How come I missed this? I don't know if I was shadow banned yesterday but I don't get to receive notifications until someone else mentions me and I run through the list. But anyways I have read EVERYTHING you said and I feel like dancing. You know why? You also recognize the illogicality of your argument and how profoundly insane your doctrines are. Let me break it down for you



You bolted! TenQ you ran away and like was (falsely) reported in the bible, you looked up to the sky and said 'Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachtani' to no avail. I clearly answered your question by conceding that in truth, your hypothetical man needs forgiveness. But I also went on to show that it is a two way thing and ultimately prove that yhwh needs blood to forgive. He is incapacitated. He cannot help it. He is constrained. To this line of argument, you are mute!

I echoed the same thoughts when you used the seller and exchange example BUT you bolted and argued that 'It is not a simple case of purchase of items'. Because IT SIMPLY does not make sense and defies logic!



You have still succeeded in doing one thing and thing alone - Nothing. To answer your question:

1. No, when man sins, God will punish. But the question is - Must HE require blood/sacrifice in order to forgive?

2. Yes, he does. But it is clearly insane to conceive the idea that the core of those protocols is the reaquirement of blood!

3. That I don't know. But what I do know is that it does not make sense that the primary thing God will require is blood, while the subjective intention of the sinner for true repentance is secondary.



Mr. TenQ you have still not proved anything logically, with all due respect. A man does the unthinkable offence and the next requirement is to require blood of unblemished lamb to forgive? Now some of the follow up questions I have for youare:

a. Since the lamb has been sacrificed, has that stopped man from doing the unthinkable offence?

b. I am aware you argued that the sin is man's nature and even equivated it to dirtiness as part of pig's nature (although, scientific evidence abounds that this is not true. But I will concede to your point), has the sacrificed 'changed' human nature from being sinful?

[There are other parts of the original doctrine I want to explore but not now]

For completeness, so as to avoid the charge of running from your question:

1. I do not know if Shaitan knows he will end up in hell. How am I to know? 2. I do not know too.

This is the beauty of Islam. We consider ourselves helpless in the front of the Almighty. He alone KNOWS everything but we trust is judgment completely, absolutely and without a doubt. But when God makes decisions, he invites us to think AND we can rationalize EVERYTHING he told us to do!

But this is not about islam. The topic is the Gospel Explained for Muslims!



Chapter 11 of Leveticus was talking about clean and unclean foods and it is in that context that God's warning. See 11:46 that said ' these are the regulations concerning animals, birds, every living thing that moves......' Or am I wrong?

So stretching it as you have done is beyond logic to me. God has not told us to be 'without blemish' as you falsely induced.



Thank God you acknowledge answered your question with the word 'notwithstanding'. Again, I am not disputing with you that a sinner needs forgiveness/atonement whether he commits 'heavy' or 'light sin'. No! My argument is a very simple one. Let me identify it for you since you fail to see it:

- Sins are individual and not communal and should be punished individually.
- It is preposterous for yhwh to require blood for atonement for EVERY type of sin, whether heavy or light
- That in any event, needing blood as a condition for salvation is not different from devil worship. It is insane and cannot be justified in logic



Finally, you are not grounded in Islamic theology neither do you know your religion. Unlike the stray advocatejare, we would answer your questions.

1. Correct, if man decides to act against God's teaching, then the greatest offense in the Universe has been committed

2. No HUMAN, living or dead, has ever violated Be and It is. Kun fayakun is in the context of creation and not commands for humans capable of being violated. A similar example is in one of my favourites books - Genesis 1:4 where it was said 'Let there be light'. Is that a commandment capable of being violated, ehn TenQ?

3. Simple answer - No, it has NEVER been violated.

cc: FxMasterz
advocatejare

Let me further simplify TenQ's analogy of the Judge-son narrative. The cogent point in that analogy is that justice MUST be served.
But before I simplify that, I want you to know that if the Judge has limitless power in relation to the law, he can exonerate his son without doing the justice, and if he does, would he still remain a just judge? To remain a just Judge, he'll have to do same for everyone; and what do you think would eventually happen to such a community?
The analogy does not in anyway directly or fully represent what really transpired. It's an analogy and should be seen as such. The major point here is the justness of the judge.
Let me further simplify this for you.
The principal and teachers of a school have the power to promote the students of the school without them passing or even writing an examination. But if they do so, the integrity of the promotion would remain questionable. The best help the principal of the school can offer the students is to give them exam questions, and supply answers in a bid to follow due process and retain the integrity of the promotion.
Again, this is just an analogy regarding the justness of a system and its judges touching a process. Questions about criminal supply of answers to students are off-board because that part does not apply to the subject matter. The only part that applies is the justness of the process, in other words, the integrity of the promotion because the principal and teachers wanted to help some incapacitated students. The examination MUST be taken even though the principal and teachers have limitless power to help all the students. Man is incapacitated as far as the solution to the sin problem is concerned.
As in the matter of Sin, justice MUST be served. These are spiritual matters that have no physical equivalent. We're just using our limited human vocabulary and experience to explain spiritual truth.
Now, let me as you a question to further buttress what TenQ has been teaching here.
Who needs the examination, the students or the principal?

LegalWolf:
This does not answer my simple questions. Apparently, you know where the interrogation would lead to and that your religion cannot be defended logically. Lol 😂. Again answer my questions and stop beating around the bush for arguments I never made of implied.

PS: I thought you’ll refer me to the suffering servant verses of Isiah when I asked you to provide clear pieces of evidence from the bible. But again, you ran away.

Let me know when you answer my questions. Until then, may the sweet bloooooooooood of Jesus be with you

In the Bible, there are old testament scriptures called Messaianic Prophecies. Isaiah 53 is just one of them. I would want you to read through the chapter if you'll be obliged, but for our occasion, let me bring out a few verses.

Isa.53.5 - But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Jesus the Messaiah fulfilled the above perfectly. He received 39 stripes of cane from the Roman soldiers. Today, when we pray for the sick and say 'By the stripes of the Lord Jesus, you're healed in Jesus name', we see testimonies.
Isa.53.10 - Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: [I]when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,[/I] he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Today, we, who have believed are the seeds of Christ by faith in God. Through Him, we become the children of God on earth.
I've given you the most simple Messaianic scripture in Isaiah because you made a direct request for Isaiah's writings.

AntiChristian:
Stop dilly-dallying! Show me where the word exists! You're the hypocrite!

I can't quote from your Bible rightly but you can quote from the Qu'ran rightly.

You can quote from my Bible rightly but on the occasion referred to, Mrcodesolo forged a lie. I know how many times you yourself and one Lateef quote the Bible rightly but gave wrong interpretations. Did anyone at those times ever accuse you of quoting out of context? Anyone who replies you only does so to show you the defects in your interpretation and correct your thinking. Did I make a generalization when I addressed the codesolo issue? Codesolo quoted out of context. I never said that's what he always does, or that's what all Muslims do. You were the one who put a generalization tag on my statement!

LegalWolf:
Hey TenQ,

How come I missed this? I don't know if I was shadow banned yesterday but I don't get to receive notifications until someone else mentions me and I run through the list. But anyways I have read EVERYTHING you said and I feel like dancing. You know why? You also recognize the illogicality of your argument and how profoundly insane your doctrines are. Let me break it down for you



You bolted! TenQ you ran away and like was (falsely) reported in the bible, you looked up to the sky and said 'Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachtani' to no avail. I clearly answered your question by conceding that in truth, your hypothetical man needs forgiveness. But I also went on to show that it is a two way thing and ultimately prove that yhwh needs blood to forgive. He is incapacitated. He cannot help it. He is constrained. To this line of argument, you are mute!

I echoed the same thoughts when you used the seller and exchange example BUT you bolted and argued that 'It is not a simple case of purchase of items'. Because IT SIMPLY does not make sense and defies logic!



You have still succeeded in doing one thing and thing alone - Nothing. To answer your question:

1. No, when man sins, God will punish. But the question is - Must HE require blood/sacrifice in order to forgive?

2. Yes, he does. But it is clearly insane to conceive the idea that the core of those protocols is the reaquirement of blood!

3. That I don't know. But what I do know is that it does not make sense that the primary thing God will require is blood, while the subjective intention of the sinner for true repentance is secondary.



Mr. TenQ you have still not proved anything logically, with all due respect. A man does the unthinkable offence and the next requirement is to require blood of unblemished lamb to forgive? Now some of the follow up questions I have for youare:

a. Since the lamb has been sacrificed, has that stopped man from doing the unthinkable offence?

b. I am aware you argued that the sin is man's nature and even equivated it to dirtiness as part of pig's nature (although, scientific evidence abounds that this is not true. But I will concede to your point), has the sacrificed 'changed' human nature from being sinful?

[There are other parts of the original doctrine I want to explore but not now]

For completeness, so as to avoid the charge of running from your question:

1. I do not know if Shaitan knows he will end up in hell. How am I to know? 2. I do not know too.

This is the beauty of Islam. We consider ourselves helpless in the front of the Almighty. He alone KNOWS everything but we trust is judgment completely, absolutely and without a doubt. But when God makes decisions, he invites us to think AND we can rationalize EVERYTHING he told us to do!

But this is not about islam. The topic is the Gospel Explained for Muslims!



Chapter 11 of Leveticus was talking about clean and unclean foods and it is in that context that God's warning. See 11:46 that said ' these are the regulations concerning animals, birds, every living thing that moves......' Or am I wrong?

So stretching it as you have done is beyond logic to me. God has not told us to be 'without blemish' as you falsely induced.



Thank God you acknowledge answered your question with the word 'notwithstanding'. Again, I am not disputing with you that a sinner needs forgiveness/atonement whether he commits 'heavy' or 'light sin'. No! My argument is a very simple one. Let me identify it for you since you fail to see it:

- Sins are individual and not communal and should be punished individually.
- It is preposterous for yhwh to require blood for atonement for EVERY type of sin, whether heavy or light
- That in any event, needing blood as a condition for salvation is not different from devil worship. It is insane and cannot be justified in logic



Finally, you are not grounded in Islamic theology neither do you know your religion. Unlike the stray advocatejare, we would answer your questions.

1. Correct, if man decides to act against God's teaching, then the greatest offense in the Universe has been committed

2. No HUMAN, living or dead, has ever violated Be and It is. Kun fayakun is in the context of creation and not commands for humans capable of being violated. A similar example is in one of my favourites books - Genesis 1:4 where it was said 'Let there be light'. Is that a commandment capable of being violated, ehn TenQ?

3. Simple answer - No, it has NEVER been violated.

cc: FxMasterz
advocatejare

All this long epistle you just typed shows you didn't understand anything TenQ has been saying on this thread. You're just reading for nothing!
Chai!
This thread is actually for intelligent people. I don't know why it is difficult for someone to understand that sin challenges God's sovereignty because it's the only thing in the whole universe that opposes God's command of 'BE'. TenQ has severally asked you that if God's 'Be' is challenged without being punished, can He still retain His position as God? I myself have given you another analogy to make things simpler for you, so that you'll come to understand that forgiveness is freely given while cleansing from the contamination of sin MUST be done.
It seems we've been speaking to a rock all this while. Nothing you said above disproves anything TenQ has been teaching you on this thread, instead, you're attacking your own made-up notions that are eternally at variance with TenQ's position.