₦airaland Forum

You still haven't explained the difference between fundamental human rights and fundamental rights.

SEFAGO:
^ So that was what my statement was about- going back to my question:

What are you arguing?


It is. As I used it in the context of this debate. Please reread what I said from the beginning you must not even know why the malawi people were arrested. I was discussing the malawi case.

My argument is: prove that the right to privacy in their homes by consenting adults is a fundamental human right.

SEFAGO:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy_in_Nigeria

It is not recognized under civil law. I will point out that i misspoke that it's illegal. You mix both of them up continuously so I am tempted to do so. But not to be sloppy.

It is good you realise you misspoke. You appear to be someone that acts before they think. That is not a mark of an intelligent person.

SEFAGO:
in what way? They "feel" or they have strong facts?

The same way the West feel polygamy is damaging.

It is quite silly of you to come here and claim the restriction on women is Islamic world is mainly as a result of polygamy.

It is such a poor argument.

Furthermore, is it not left to an adult woman to decide if polygamy is for them?

By banning polygamy, is the West not restricting muslims rights as prescribed by the UN charter you provided?

Earlier you also said there is a diference between fundamental human rights and fundamental rights, please expantiate.

SEFAGO:
I was talking about "GAY ACTIVITY" I quoted the article, and attacked obasanjo's assertion on homosexuality and comparing it to bestiality. I made no reference to marriage, YOU DID. YOU STARTED THIS INANE ARGUMENT ON POLYGAMOUS MARRIAGE. MARRIAGE AND INTIMACY relations ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS LAST TIME I CHECKED.

When people talk of consent we talk about intimacy not consenting to shoot a friend who is dying from terminal cancer, not consenting to engage in multiple marriage. When people talk of "age of consent" we dont mean the age when you can say yes to anything , we mean the age to "say yes to intimacy."

I apologize- the mistake is mine, assuming everyone understands basic lingo

So if you are trying to run from stating your position about gay marriage despite claiming intelligence and being  well versed in standard philosophical theory, let me relieve you.

So according to your statement:

"Consenting adults should have a right to privacy in their homes. Its a fundamental human right."

If it is a fundamental human right, then why is incest against the law? Why is it that in the most western countries, it is against the law to have sexual relationship with cousins?

SEFAGO:
LOL, At least I have an argument you are just going roundabout. What exactly are your trying to say. Please articulate it clearly. When I spoke of consenting adults i was referring to not marriage. You are referring to marriage I guess since you are so adamant on polygamy.

So you are against gay marriage?

SEFAGO:
Nna bros are you confused- my statement was on the legality of gay which was the reason the malawi people got imprisoned. I blame myself though for not catching your spurious logic that since polygamy is illegal in the US, then homo activity can be illegal in malawi.

Let me humor your daftness:

The US made polygamy illegal for various, and well presented reasons which was also focused on human rights protection. Go and read up on them. That is also why bestiality is illegal worldwide to protect people. Polygamy is illegal even in several places in Nigeria. It is bad for women especially. Gay marriage does have its demerits too and that's why it has not been fully legalized in most countries.

Please which parts of Nigeria is polygamy illegal?

Malawi has also ban homosexuality for moral protection. They feel it damages their society.

SEFAGO:
Stop being nitpicky. I used informed consent because usually laws are based after significant and superior debate. One of these arguments would be informed consent. It would not be the only reason the Government would ban polygamy. Euthanasia is also an action done by consenting individuals but it is illegal due to large debates by bio ethicist on the importance of human life.

So consenting adults is not a fundamental human rights then?

SEFAGO:
I searched the internet, and I finally figured why y'all are adamant on polygamy. Its a rehashed argument but a poor one. Its like comparing oranges to agbalumo. It would be better if you were comparing gay marriage to polygamy.

Then be clear- so western ideology is wrong right? Western Ideology involves logically debate on issues which involve comparing oranges to oranges. Apples to apples. Not "Gay relations" to "polygamous marriage." Around 6 European countries allow gay marriages FYI. In America several states do not recognize gay marriage FYI. There are human right organizations in Africa, in China, in the Middle East- do all these carry western ideologies? Is freedom an exclusively western ideology? Or could it also be a Confucian one? I believe you could find arguments for freedom in African ideology if we actually have one or can construct one.

I ask again- what is your argument because you dont have one.

Are you saying you are against gay marriage?

It is actually quite simple, and I am surprised you don't get it despite claiming intelligence.

You said:

"Consenting adults should have a right to privacy in their homes. Its a fundamental human right."

And so I asked you:

"If it is a fundamental human right, so why is polygamy unlawful in the US even if consenting adults want to engage in it? Why is there a law to block it? Why would the law not recognise it but recognise civil unions?"

And you are still struggling to explain why a set of consenting adults (polygamists) are denied rights of do what they want to do that does not harm anyone under the law despite you misguided claim that it is a fundamental human right.

You are really not demonstrating the intelligence. You come across as someone that posted before thinking and is now struggling.

So do you agree now that acts just based on consent between adults is not a fundamental human right?

SEFAGO:
If you are referring to the Malawi case- you missed the point. They were arrested because they were gay. They engaged in "gay relations" not because they were married. But there is a right to consenting adults engaging in relations under the UN Human rights charter which Malawi signed to. This is therefore a violation of their basic human right. The right to privacy and the right to freedom from discrimination. No this does not have to do with bestiality/zoosexuality as some people claim. "Beasts" cannot make informed consents, and could lead to disease jumps which could threaten society.

The bolded also applies to polygamy, does it not?

SEFAGO:
LOL, seems you would never understand leave it as it is:

Please answer the questions.

SEFAGO:
So? Does that mean it is good? Because polygamy is was practiced in the past by the chinese/jews (china/israel have bans on polygamy and they are not the west) that serves as an argument for what?  You are not arguing anything lol. Whats your argument?

I have told you the statement "consenting adults" does not refer to marriage of sorts. It refers to sexual relations. If you cannot tell the difference sorry.

Polygamy affects the autonomy of women. Most women who engage in polygamy are socialized to do so. Period. Go and pick up a book on modern philosophy and autonomy to learn what you need to know why polygamy is bad, and rarely the ideal situation for an woman. If you deny that polygamy as preconceived has been a male construct then you really dont know much.

The question is very simple, why would a government of a free country, engage in interfering in the decision of "two consenting adults" under the pretext of informed consent?

Your argument is too weak!

Worse still when coming from the same person that postulated the assertion:

"Consenting adults should have a right to privacy in their homes. Its a fundamental human right."

Or was that not YOUR OWN statement?

SEFAGO:
Your question does not make sense. Consenting adult is an argument for "gay intimacy" not "gay marriage" are you that daft? Let me hammer it again in your head until it penetrates it. Repeat it like a nursery rhyme:

"CONSENTING ADULT IS AN ARGUMENT FOR THE LEGALITY OF GAY S.E.XU.AL RELATIONS. , NOT GAY MARRIAGE. HENCE I CANNOT BRING FALLACIOUS ARGUMENTS LIKE POLYGAMY (A TYPE OF MARRIAGE SYSTEM) INTO THIS DEBATE. MY PREMISE IS WRONG. EVEN MORESO I AM TOTALLY IGNORANT TO ASSUME THAT GAY MARRIAGE IS ACCEPTED IN ALL PARTS OF THE WEST AND IS NOT A HOTLY DEBATED TOPIC. I APOLOGIZE MY IQ IS BELOW THE AVERAGE THRESHOLD"

The Malawi people were not married.

I am sorry but the reality is that, it is the same "consenting adult" arguments that was used to promote civil partnership?

If you don't know this, Mr intelligent, then I think we need to go back to the discussions about ignorance.

SEFAGO:
If you mean they are run by white people which you collectively call the west then you are correct. if you mean they are funded by the US government or the UK government then you really are hilarious. These Human right agencies also criticize the west.

What do you really mean by the west- do you mean the government or you are referring to the people?

Remember Human Right Organizations are usually NGOs. I live in a place which probably has the largest number of human right organizations in the world so I would know that these guys sit down and criticize everything the US government does. I would not be surprised if there is one that asks for polygamy rights.

I believe I never defined the "West" as western government. Common sense would let anyone realise that Human Rights orgs are NGOs, and NGOs are not civil servants, hence I really do not know why you assumed anyone would describe them as Western governments.

So I guess you don't realise that since they are from the West, they will carry a prevailing Western ideology.

So lets agree that you misspoke when you said "People who criticize the discrimination against gays are not the "West", they are mainly human rights organizations". As the human rights orgs carry a Western ideology.

SEFAGO:
Polygamy affects autonomy a lot. Consider this- who are the people who usually practice polygamy in the US- Muslims and fundamentalist Mormons. An intelligent person well versed in standard philosophical theory like I am would catch on to the fact that Muslim women are socialized to engage in polygamy. How many women would really want to engage in polygamy if they were not pressurized by society or family? Is that really informed consent?

When people talk about consent especially when you want to present a court case they talk about infored consent- being aware of the consequences of what you are doing. Modern feminist theory would refute claims that women are authentically polygamous. Polygamy is usually one man and many women. Does this not seem wrong to you?


Further polygamy has adverse effects for the government especially welfare Governments like the UK. The Government does not want to be footing the bill for four wives of a Muslim man who does not have work.

www.californialawreview.org/assets/pdfs/98-1/Richards.pdf

http://hrbriefblog./2010/04/06/human-rights-group-challenges-uganda%E2%80%99s-polygamy-laws/


Human rights groups do challenge polygamy on its harmful grounds to women and as articulated in Article 30 of the Universal declaration of human rights that the US signs to, and including Nigeria, no right should supersede the well being of others. The freedom to practise religion does not entail that you can engage in acts that undermine the autonomy and informed consent of women.

If this is your argument about how polygamy cause limitations on the autonomy of women, then I am afraid I have to agree with Sagamite that you are failing your alma mater.

You claim arrogantly to be an intelligent person but yet are not aware Africans and other peoples have been practicing polygamy before Islam came? Jews practiced polygamy in the past. So did the Chinese.

Since when do governments start self-appointing to determine whether adults have informed consent? Is that philosophical theory that makes you intelligent? What happened to "two consenting adults"? So what stops a government from stopping gay marriage by claiming it is not informed consent since there is frequent injury of anal muscles? I hope you are not a lawyer as you will be thrown out of court with such shallow and inept arguments.

SEFAGO:
They do not recognize gay marriage under the consenting adult clause. You are 100% wrong on this. Arguments on gay marriage have no reference to consenting adults. You noticed I stopped because i was confused at what you were saying . . . the Malawi people did not get married you know, they "announced their engagement" which drew the eyes of the government to them, and put them in trouble. They had been committing the crime but had not yet being "discovered" until they announced it.

Consenting adult means the right to "intimacy" with each other, you are the one who introduced marriage into this, even Obasanjo caught that part and you cannot. The right for homosexuals to engage with each other is protected in the US but not in Nigeria. Gay marriage is now a different question.

Arguments for Gay marriage is a different cup of tea and is quite complex. An argument for gay marriage has to provide reasons why traditional marriages should include gay marriage. Its more complex in a christian nation like the US, or a very traditional and conservative nation like Nigeria or Malawi. I dont feel like trying today.

I am afraid I don't understand you write up here. This is what I asked you:

Gamesmart:
You appear to want to throw accusation of 'ignorance'.

OK, may I test yours?

Is it not the case that a lot of Western countries now have same intimacy marriage under the subterfuge - civil union? And those that do not yet, the prevailing argitation by the vocal liberals is for this to exist?

So why will they recognise gay marriage under the "consenting adults" rigmarole (i.e. where it is already in place), but yet have legislations that restrict polygamy using bigamy laws?

Do you know or are you ignorant to this?

Sorry if I am wasting your time, I note you used the adjective 'foreign'. Is that your justification for banning polygamy?

So why can't the UK be OK with only foreign same intimacy marriages? Why do they need a local same intimacy marriage system?

It appears you are not very good at demonstrating coherence or you are using underhand logic.

Basically, what grounds the proponents of homosexual marriage have to lecture Africa on "two consenting adults" are free to doas they wish, when they do not allow "two consenting adults" the freedom to marry in a polygamous set up?

SEFAGO:
I would state- yes they might breach some fundamental human rights. But whats your point? People who criticize the discrimination against gays are not the "West", they are mainly human rights organizations.

Also usually when a court determines a precedent case, they usually weigh superior human rights- which supersedes what. This involves significant debate in court- you cannot ensure the right to polygamy if polygamy could cause significant limitations on the autonomy of women.

If we remain on the case of ignorance, you will fall in that category with the bolded.

It will shock me you do not know that majority of Human Rights organisations are run by the West. And majority of those not run by the West are funded by them.

I will await your explanation of how polygamy cause limitations on the autonomy of women.

SEFAGO:
I am going to be  lazy today because your statements are a bit ignorant:

The West does not recognize same- marriage in every place. Please specify the country. I know in the US same- marriage varies across each state. Some states do not recognize it and its illegal in some places while some are very liberal about it.

You appear to want to throw accusation of 'ignorance'.

OK, may I test yours?

Is it not the case that a lot of Western countries now have same intimacy marriage under the subterfuge - civil union? And those that do not yet, the prevailing argitation by the vocal liberals is for this to exist?

So why will they recognise gay marriage under the "consenting adults" rigmarole (i.e. where it is already in place), but yet have legislations that restrict polygamy using bigamy laws?

Do you know or are you ignorant to this?

SEFAGO:
Please do your research you are wasting my time again. The UK recognizes foreign polygamy marriages but will not allow it to go on in their country. Also they are very lax for muslims lol.

Sorry if I am wasting your time, I note you used the adjective 'foreign'. Is that your justification for banning polygamy?

So why can't the UK be OK with only foreign same intimacy marriages? Why do they need a local same intimacy marriage system?

It appears you are not very good at demonstrating coherence or you are using underhand logic.

Basically, what grounds the proponents of homosexual marriage have to lecture Africa on "two consenting adults" are free to doas they wish, when they do not allow "two consenting adults" the freedom to marry in a polygamous set up?

SEFAGO:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/791263.stm

Yes, it can be argued in international human right courts that polygamy is a human right. I would however tell any lawyer trying to do so that a stronger and contrary argument can also be proposed- that polygamy violates several human rights . However, there has been to precedent in international courts. The main reason being that the law is rarely enforced.

It shocks me that you celebrated above that the UK recognises polygamy and then post a like that shows muslim challenging the govt for not recognising polygamy. That is a classic.  

Can you please put forth your argument on how polygamy violates several human rights? It will be interesting for the lawyers on the forum to learn this.

SEFAGO:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90886407

Lots of polygamy going on in the US. They even have suggestive statistics on this.

If you think polygamy laws are really enforced when they cause no harm anyone you must be unaware of how laws in the west works. You will only see polygamy issues when a guy has done some major f.u.ck ups

So why did the US legislate against it if it is between two consenting adults that cause no harm to anyone?

Why do they send people to jail for bigamy offences?

If that is fair, so why can't Africa (and even the US) also legislate against same-intimacy marriage and punish anyone that breaks their law?

SEFAGO:
That sounds like something from an 8 year old social studies book.

Fundamental human rights are those set forth by the United nations (Universal declaration of human rights) which are acknowledged by member countries.

Go and read all the articles of the human rights then come back lol.  Then we can debate. You are not even on the right platform lol.

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

The US does violate fundamental human rights, I do agree they get less attention than we do. But several of the fundamental human rights are protected in the US. Less so in Nigeria especially during dictatorial regimes.
 

By the way I think you are mixing fundamental human rights with[b] fundamental rights[/b] in terms of application.

Please dont come back with a primary school textbook definition of human rights. I go vex no be small

It makes sense to present your case with sound links with your arguments.

So how does this document you produce justify the practice in the West of allowance and recognition, by the state, of marriage between same intimacy, but yet refusal to do such for polygamy? Despite both being of consenting adults.

Secondly, from the same article:

Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, intimacy, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.


Article 16.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family.

Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Are laws banning polygamy in the West not a breach of these rights above affecting muslims and cultures that practice polygamy?

SEFAGO:
Please all of you should go and learn what a fundamental human right is. I never stated its a universal law lol. Google could help you start.

I have. It is here in my argument:

Gamesmart:
Fundamental human rights is defined as human rights which humans have by the fact of being human, and which are neither created nor can be abrogated by any government.

Do you have a different definition?

SEFAGO:
Errm you dont get it. I have the fundamental right to free speech does not mean I can engage in seditious speech or treasonous speech in a country.

No, this is really not a valid argument.

Free speech is not banned under the law. Polygamy is.

What you just said is more analogous to a crime like alfresco intimacy. intimacy with a wife/husband is fundamental human right, but if it is done in an offensive way then it can be punished.

That example was poor. I suggest you try again.

SEFAGO:
The reason why I cannot defend the Malawi people is because I am sure they were fully aware that their country was homophobic and so knew the repercussion of there actions.

I agree with you.

SEFAGO:
Anyways . . . when you speak of "rights to consenting adults" nothing is hampered in the US. Individual can consent to engage in polygamous relationships, but just because the Government does not endorse it, does not mean that their fundamental right is being impaired or that it is void.

As long as the law forbids them to formalise the union, it is not a fundamental human rights.

As long as government officials can choose to prosecute an individual on it, it is not a fundamental human rights, it is a granted privilege.

Is that not true?

Fundamental human rights is defined as human rights which humans have by the fact of being human, and which are neither created nor can be abrogated by any government.

So your claim that something at the mercy of arbitrary/discretional decision of government officials to prosecute is not a fundamental human right. Right or wrong?

SEFAGO:
No, I didnt  . You cannot get a warrant from a state defence attorney to break up polygamous relations lol. The US respects the rights of individuals to do what they want in their house lol.

However, they try and prevent somethings with laws. People's fundamental rights are still being protected, just that the Governement does not give them any legal status

But you are not allowed to express your (so-called) fundamental human rights as you can not formalise it in the eyes of the law? So it is not a fundamental human right then, it is a right you are allowed to have as long as government officials decide to ignore/tolerate it?

SEFAGO:
It is not banned again lol. You are using the wrong words. Considering the fact that it is law, I got the right to be worried about semantics.

Homosexual cohabitation is not recognized in most parts of the US too. So whats your point?

My point is that, you were wrong when you said it was a fundamental human right as you proposed. Is that not so?

SEFAGO:
LOL  the polygamy law argument. So boring, and trite. Well I got a few minutes to waste. B4 you refer to US law be aware that there in the US there are:
1. Federal law
2. State law

Polygamy is recommended as a felony under the Federal Model penal code- which is a standardized set of laws that the state legislature use as a model to make their laws. However it is not illegal in some states. Moreover, although it might be a felony, it is rarely pursues as such. Especially in the case you have referred to as consenting adults with no formal engagements.


For example, I could have  eight wives  , and remain undisturbed. As long as I do not marry them formally (like in court) then I am technically not breaking any laws. However, they could cohabit with me. Then if my jealous neighbor finds out I could maybe taken to court- its 100% likely that the judge would drop the case out of boredom and the stupidity of the case, as long as the eight wives are not being assaulted or anything or there is no child abuse involved. Infact the judge would koboko the neighbor for wasting his time when there are homicides and despoiling going on in an already overstretched and litigious country.

Basically to cut it short, polygamy is not "illegal" in the US in the sense of the true sense. People practise polygamy especially the Mormons. I am sure Utah has very lax laws on polygamy because of the high proportion of Mormons. The only time it becomes a major problem when it involves child abuse, domestic violence and such.

By the way polygamy is not recognized in some states in Nigeria under our legal code, and even in lagos- but polygamy dey go on fine fine.

Moot Argument

So to cut it short, you are saying there are laws that ban it, it is not recognise by the federal government as you can not formalise it and people can be charged to court despite being consenting adults?

So it is not a fundamental human right then?

But yet, they are using that argument of consenting adults to tell Africa to legalise homosexuality and allow marriage/civil union?

SEFAGO:
1. Consenting adults should have a right to privacy in their homes. Its a fundamental human right.

If it is a fundamental human right, so why is polygamy unlawful in the US even if consenting adults want to engage in it? Why is there a law to block it? Why would the law not recognise it but recognise civil unions?

They have no good training.

I work in HR with Shell.

[quote author=Hnd-holder link=topic=916.msg395068#msg395068 date=1149168379]You need to read this [i]A Perspective On The Discrimination Against Nigerian HND Holders[i][/i]By[/i]Christian Dimkpa

Germany

Dimkpa@uni-jena.de



At present, the average Nigerian graduate, be they of the university or the polytechnic hue, is largely poorly trained and therefore ill equipped to face life’s dynamic realities. On a visit to Nigeria last summer, one of my former lecturers at the Michael Okpara College of Agriculture (MOCA), Owerri Imo State, during a discussion, concluded that the last set of motivated and serious students of his college graduated in 1998. I agreed with him not because I was of that set, but because my HND research project attests to that. However, I remembered that this same lecturer, like several of his peers, rather than engage the students in rigorous academic work, sold plagiarised hand-outs to us like no man’s business. This brings me to the recent directive from President Obasanjo, aimed at ending the discrimination between HND and BSc graduates. Whether employers of labour are heeding this directive or not, is another story. But, tell me, what is there to discriminate against when both qualifications (as obtained from Nigeria in recent times) reek of mediocrity? The truth is, like his BSc counterpart, the present Nigerian HND graduate is a lazy, dependent fellow who would not take his destiny in his hands. Many students attend polytechnics for several reasons. For me, but also, am sure, for many ND students, being from just an average-resource base family, undertaking an ND program was a form of security, since the later is of shorter duration, and there is no guaranteed funding for the longer BSc program. It was reasoned that in the event of loss of sponsorship (from death or loss of job by the sponsor); one can pause after the ND, work for a while and then continue with higher studies. For the much longer BSc program, loss of sponsorship midway could see the individual involved back to school certificate level. Would you blame anyone for reasoning this way? I wouldn’t; with  poverty so palpable in Nigeria.
Although I was fully aware of the discrimination phenomenon, I did not let it be a road-block to my ambition. If you will permit, a brief delve into my career might help to buttress this point. I use to hold (of course, I still hold) a National Diploma (ND) and a HND in Crop Production, both from relatively non-renown higher institutions in Nigeria. However, it is instructive that today, I am pursuing a PhD program at one of the prestigious Max Planck institutes in Germany (best research institute in Europe and eight best globally), and this is in an innovative field of study that perhaps, may never be conducted in any Nigerian university many years from now. This is after obtaining an International MSc degree in Belgium from a university that is listed among the first 300 globally. Note that no Nigerian university is in the first 500, and in the newspaper recently, one Nigerian stakeholder lamented that even if the ranking is extended to the first 5000 best universities, Nigerian universities would still not make the list.
After my HND studies in 1998, I worked with the International Institute of Tropical Agriculture (IITA) Ibadan, as a Research Assistant. During the interview for that position, several BSc graduate applicants from ‘well-known’ universities such as UI, UniLag, OAU-Ile Ife, among others, were interviewed as well, but the big university names associated with those individuals did not save them from relegation, as they say in football parlance. What I am emphasising here is that it is the intellectual quality of the individual, not the institution attended, that often matters. If you know IITA, then you will agree with me that when it comes to staff recruitment, personal merit is the watchword, not merely possessing a HND or BSc degree.
Afterwards, I applied for graduate studies at the Federal University of Agriculture in Abeokuta (UNAAB). Surprisingly or not, I was not considered suitable for admission either because of my HND (upper credit), or because I do not come from that part of Nigeria (remember that tribalism is another serious scourge in Nigeria). But that is by the way. Nevertheless, I did not relent in my desire to attain the highest academic level possible, so that in spite of possessing a HND and the unexplained rejection by UNAAB, and thanks to hundreds of internet hours, I soon obtained a full scholarship from the Belgian inter-university council (www.vlir.be) in 2003, to study Molecular Biology (Plant Biotechnology) in that country. When I arrived in Belgium for the MSc program, I found out that of 241 Nigerians who applied for scholarship for the course, I was the only one admitted. Remember, I held a HND, not the ‘almighty’ BSc. The curious mind that I am, I inquired more about the unsuccessful Nigerian applicants and behold, they were mostly university graduates (again from UI, UniLag, OAU, UNN, UniPort, etc). Of course, two other students of The Polytechnic Ibadan were also admitted but for a different MSc course. That polytechnic offers only HND and not BSc programs. Such is the power of the individual merit. I have since acquitted myself very well in the Belgian MSc program; hence I was admitted, again on full fellowship, to one of the International Max Planck Research School (IMPRS) of the Max Planck society in Germany (http://www.mpg.de/english and also (http://www.ice.mpg.de) , to study beneficial plant-microbe interaction using modern biotechniques, including proteomics and metabolomics. The other Nigerian scholars, formerly holding HNDs, have since undertaken different higher pursuits here in Europe. This narrative does not by any means attempt to denigrate Nigerian BSc graduates or the universities from which they graduated, but rather to de-emphasise the entrenched segregation. There is even a dichotomy between federal and state university graduates. Wonders shall never end, in Nigeria! From my experience, it can be seen that the senseless HND-BSc dichotomy should have no place in the mind of any serious-minded Nigerian graduate. After all, the HND is fully recognised in the UK and have several equivalents in other European countries. What then is all the fuss about it in Nigeria? My little advice to the Nigerian HND holder who have suffered this discrimination, and who feel qualified enough for certain positions denied them is this: do not let man-made barriers block your ambition, except you have none. Take a cue from others; take time off to do meaningful internet browsing, not using the internet for 419 and other such negative activities. In no time, you too can obtain scholarships to foreign and much better rated institutions of higher learning. By so doing you would have catapulted yourself well beyond any possible academic discrimination if you choose to return to Nigeria to work.

Christian Dimkpa, a PhD fellow of the International Max Planck Research School, writes from Jena, Germany (cdimkpa@ice.mpg.de)[/quote]Discrimination! This man go dey bitter with his papaland.

[quote author=Hnd-holder link=topic=134.msg123818#msg123818 date=1134032851]Because I do not attend university I was denied from marry a lardy. British brought HND and they Honor it. American had TECHNOLOGIST and the courses in technology they also honour it. Nigerian bought both the American system and that of British, those of us who are fools fell into it and we are regretting the polytechnic education.  American had polytechnic university while Nigerians own is colledge of Technology.
CLOSE DOWN THE POLYTECHNICS NIGERIAN DO NOT WANT IT.[/quote]Me too. Na suffer for this thing.

Nchara:
Does anyone remember this guy who wrote an article about discrimination against HND here on nairaland, on NVS and in several Nigerian newspaper some three years ago? I am talking about Christian Dimkpa. While checking out on some academic documents on the net, I came across his work done between 2006 and 2009 during his PhD study. I understand that he is now in the USA on postdoctoral employment after completing his PhD in Germany earlier this year. Look what a HND holder can do:

Dr. Christian Dimkpa (HND, Nigeria; MSc, Belgium; PhD, Germany; postdoctoral Fellowship, USA).

Is this not a challenge for our youths who think HND is a death mark? Here are links to some of his publication:

http://rparticle.web-p.cisti.nrc.ca/rparticle/AbstractTemplateServlet?calyLang=eng&journal=cjm&volume=54&year=0&issue=3&msno=w07-130

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TC7-4TVHG8J-1&_user=464852&_coverDate=01%2F31%2F2009&_rdoc=21&_fmt=high&_orig=browse&_srch=doc-info(%23toc%235163%232009%23999589998%23761105%23FLA%23display%23Volume)&_cdi=5163&_sort=d&_docanchor=&_ct=24&_acct=C000022310&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=464852&md5=d30f5d91ca982b7c9976472e4398407c

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V74-4TVFYKG-6&_user=464852&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F2008&_rdoc=5&_fmt=high&_orig=browse&_srch=doc-info(%23toc%235832%232008%23999259998%23701932%23FLA%23display%23Volume)&_cdi=5832&_sort=d&_docanchor=&_ct=27&_acct=C000022310&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=464852&md5=cf50e1b5882f03c8db43e2de172ff260

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/122342530/abstract

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/120118690/issue

Wo, HND dey try o.

Why the discrimination?