Deep Sight:

Huxey - I have said it already, i repeat:

God is -

The uncaused cause, the ultimate singularity inherent in the uniform infinity of time and space, and beyond this, the primordial non-contingent "idea" of existence, bearing all the hallmarks of Intelligence and thereby presupposing a conscious entity.

You may, if you like, call it the mind of the universe, but i believe the universe to be finite, so it will be more apt to say: the mind of existence.

OK, cool. Lets examine that definition;

1) Firstly, how did you come to know about this definition of God? And how do we, humans, know about the attributes of God?

2) What does "ultimate singularity" mean.

3) Did you mean "Beyond space and time"?


4) Is God within the universe and also without the universe?


5) Does God inter-act with the universe? If he does, by what mechanism?

[size=14pt]Please, can I ask RCCG members to fast and prayer for the faithfulness of the GO's sons and daughters who may be having a lustful eye on people outside their marriage?[/size]

This is really the time to glorify God with your prayers so please do not let the GO's family down.

argh, argh Deep Sight!

Where is your definition of God naah?

GODSON2009:

@abuzolaypu see what you have caused for yourself??
so you want us to judge christianity and christian standards by the behaviour of one of pastor adeboye's children who i dont even know or care to know, how is that sensible or following any rational reasoning?lol

We would not be laughing at your face if Christians are not been in the habit of saying just how Christianity and Jesus had changed their lives.  I suppose this is a man who is under the blessings of all the prayers from his father and the RCC - what happened to all the prayers then?

ALL the PRAYERS that Members of RCC have been saying for the health and steadfastness of the GO's family have gone in vain?   Millions of GO members cannot say a simple prayer and stop this man getting his privates about?

If this were in someone else's family, Adeboye would say that the Family Head (ie the Father) has left SATAN come into his family. He is in the habit of blaming all the mishap of a family on the father of the family.

If this is true, now is the time to examine his own teachings and his family's morals.

Deep Sight:

Huxley, can you tell me what internal inconsistency there is with God as I have defined and described him.

Hello,

Sorry, I might have missed you definition of God. Can you repeat it again, stating the ontological properties of God, like;

1) His location in space and time
2) His form
3) His capabilities
4) Whether he can be perceived and how?

etc, etc.

noetic2:

1. is God in-perceivable?

2. Does God not poccess energy? or matter?. . . .how do u describe the physical manifestation of Jesus Christ on earth?

3. Does God not have a life-time? have u ever heard of ETERNITY? did Jesus not live on earth for 33 years?

your argument above is NOT valid.

how would u describe the combination of a square and circle? there is NO inconsistency in a this combination. . . or is there?
I would call this combination a square-circle. . . ,  . . .is there a conflict?

When some talks like this, you know there are no longer on this planet.   Square-circle?  That can only come from a mind deluded by superstition.

noetic2:

why dont u start by defining EXISTENCE? what does it mean to EXIST? , . .I would love to examine your definition and see if God is incapable of existing. . . .

Check this out - Existence is the condition exhibited when something is perceivable and will have one or more of the following;

1) A lifetime
2) it possesses matter, energy

And most of ALL Something that exist CANNOT BEAR internal inconsistency. For example, We know a square circle cannot exist because there is internal inconsistence in their definitions.

Deep Sight:

Dear Rosabelle, i can show you threads on this forum where Atheists have argued that we cannot be certain that 2 + 2 = 4. One atheist in particular began to assert that 2 + 2 = 4 on earth but maybe not on mars. When i talked about the existence of something, and contrasted that with nothingness, some atheists demanded a definition of what "nothing" means. At some point i asserted that the universe is something, and one of them asked me to prove that.

In summary, they  generally do not have much to say, and are content to trifle around with words and hollow questions. Beyond a collective hatred of man-made religion, they can never muster intelligible reasons for calling themselves atheists. Not that i demand proof from them, but at least some faint idea as to why they have chosen their path. . . the only reason they are able to muster is that "religion is false and corrupt."

Of course this is just like assering that a faulty car which has been used to kill people had no manufacturer, on account of its faulty and evil nature.

Unthinkable reasoning.

Speaking only for myself,  I am atheist because I have not seen a positive coherent definition of God that is free from internal inconsistencies.  I have asked you many a times to give me your defintion of God but you have refused.  Can I ask you now to give us a definition of God and we shall examine whether an entity with your definition is capable of existence?

Now is your turn

noetic2:

1. You made a case for "transformation" . . .but we both established that islamic transformation is not a POSITIVE one . . .as it does NOT conform with allah's commandments.

2. I NEVER said a muslim is wrong by having a relationship with "God". . . . all that we both did was to establish that an islamic transformation is not the same as a born-again transformation. . . . . .they are two completely different things.

3. Yes. . , the crux of the matter is RELATIONSHIP. . . . .with God through Jesus Christ. . , . .

In fact, you claim to have a RELATIONSHIP with God thru Jesus - Can you tell me the ways in which your life has changed uniquely because of that RELATIONSHIP, that could not have happened otherwise?

As far as I know, there is NOT a single moral guiding principle that is unique and original to Jesus by which Christians govern their lives. Everything that Jesus said that is POSITIVE had been said and practised for millenia before Jesus. Where Jesus was unique and original, he said some of the most vile and reprehensible things, like;

1) Eternal Punishment in Hell - This is original to Jesus

2) The Abondonment of Worldly concerns

etc, etc,

So how can you be proud to have a RELATIONSHIP with such a nasty and reprehensible individual?

noetic2:

1. You made a case for "transformation" . . .but we both established that islamic transformation is not a POSITIVE one . . .as it does NOT conform with allah's commandments.

2. I NEVER said a muslim is wrong by having a relationship with "God". . . . all that we both did was to establish that an islamic transformation is not the same as a born-again transformation. . . . . .they are two completely different things.

3. Yes. . , the crux of the matter is RELATIONSHIP. . . . .with God through Jesus Christ. . , . .

No, we did not establish that Christian transformation is positive while islamic is not. Take for instance this injunction from Jesus:

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)


Do you live your life by this life-transforming injunction of Jesus? If not why not?


I put it to you that you do not follow most of the injunction of Jesus? Which of these do you, as a person with a relationship with Jesus, do you follow:

1) Take no care of tomorrow

2) Turn the other cheek

3) If a man takes your property, give him something else

4) Abandon your family for the sake of Jesus

5) Do not defend yourself against an aggressor.

How could you call yourself a Christian and claim a relationship with him when you do not keep some of his core teachings?

noetic2:

1. I thought u could unravel the concept. . . I was wrong, . . , but it is not atomic science. , . . or is it?

There are key elements of the relationship definition. . they are
a. acceptance of Jesus as Lord and saviour. , . John 3:16
b. power to become son of God , . John 1:12
c. establishment of God's kingdom . . . .mathew 4:17
d. being led by the spirit . . . , romans 8:14
e. inheriting eternity with God . . . mathew
f. being God's ambassador on earth. . . . mathew 5:13-16

2. Ech of the verses I listed in my last post butress the fact that Christ came to establish a relationship with humans. . . . . .all u have to do is to use a little thinking. . .is that a hard job?

OK, be that as it may. If this is what you call a Relationship with God/Jesus, please yourself.

But I contend that the Muslim also claims to have a relationship with Allah/Mohammed under his own definition of "Relationship". If the Muslim did not have a relationship with Allah/Mohammed then what are they doing venerating, worshiping, honouring him? In the muslim view, they have a relationship with Allah/MO, however different a definition this might be.


So is your contention that Because you have a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus/God your position is TRUE and the Muslim who has got a relationship with God is wrong? Is the truth of the matter founded on who has a relationship with whom?

noetic2:

your ignorance is appalling. . , . , . how many verses do u want?

a. mathew 4:17, 5:13-16, 5:45, 6:9-14, 6:19-21, 6:33, 7:17-29,
b. John 1:12-14
c. romans 8:14


a. where is this stated in the koran?

b. why are u desperately trying to use islam to make a nihilant point.

mathew 4:17 - From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

Matthew 5: 13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men. 14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


I have checked some of these verses and nowhere do I see the word RELATIONSHIP or its implication under your definition of:

Relationship is the acknowledgement and acceptance of Jesus as LORD and SAVIOUR. . , with the inherent power to be the son of God , to inherit eternity. . .and to be LED by the HOLY SPIRIT, . . .thats what relationship with God means.


Can you post the details of a specific verse(s) that satisfy this definition?

noetic2:

why dont u find out.

1. Christianity is all about the RELATIONSHIP . . . , and it is stated all over the NT. . . . just pick up a bible.

2. Relationship is the acknowledgement and acceptance of Jesus as LORD and SAVIOUR. . , with the inherent power to be the son of God , to inherit eternity. . .and to be LED by the HOLY SPIRIT, . . .thats what relationship with God means.

Can you show us in the NT where a Relationship with God is mentioned. References please would be nice.

2. Relationship is the acknowledgement and acceptance of Jesus as LORD and SAVIOUR. . , with the inherent power to be the son of God , to inherit eternity. . .and to be LED by the HOLY SPIRIT, . . .thats what relationship with God means.

On this definition, muslim also have a relationship with Allah, as in:


Relationship is the acknowledgement and acceptance of Mohammed as TRUE and ONLY Prophet of God. . , with the inherent power to be the prophet of God , to inherit eternity.

noetic2:

I have NEVER heard a muslim have a relationship with allah and mohammed. . . . .its stated no where in the koran. . . or is it?

Well, the muslims I know say there have a relationship with Mohammed and allah. Otherwise, why all the veneration towards Allah and Mohammed? I do not know if it is stated in the Koran.

By the way, is it also stated that Christians MUST have a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus/God? What does it mean to "have a relationship with Jesus/God". How is having a relationship with Jesus/God different from having a relationship with Allah/Mohammed?

davidylan:

Absolute hogwash! Even Christ was denied by HIS OWN PEOPLE, beaten, spat on and finally crucified on the cross . . . so racism is God's fault? Did not the same bible you claimed to have read tell you that you will suffer for His sake? Why is that a surprise? Did the bible anywhere promise you a problem-free ride the minute you became a christian?

Jesus was racist and sectarian in his doctrine, forbiding his disciples from going into the towns and villages of non-Jewish. This doctrine which was carried over by his true Jerusalem heir, under the leadership of James was the centre of the dispute that the early followers had with the upstart Paul who came in and overthrow the whole Jesus idea.

davidylan:

More nonsense. The same God watched as His own Son was crucified on the cross . . . one would have expected all the disciples to turn to atheism like you too right? What did you expect God to do? Strike those pastors down with death? Did you not read in that bible you carried for yrs "let them both grow until the harvest"?

Why would one expect them to turn to atheism? What is the record of people abandoning their previous belief even after all their tenets and predictions have been summarily refuted?

davidylan:

Did the same bible not warn you that the wicked would indeed prosper at the end time?

Who is the wicked? Is this world a better world or a worse world than it was 2000 years ago? When would you rather live? Now or 2000 years ago? Who are these wicked who are propering?

davidylan:

thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not covet their neighbors stuff, thou shalt not commit fornication, thou shalt not steal - all laws by iron age ignoramuses even though your common law today is heavily dependent on the 10 commandments?

You make things up too readily. Thou shaltnot kill is not part of the 10 Commandments, nor is thou shalt not commit fornication. Straighten up, please!

davidylan:

you expected ALL THAT to be accomodated in 10 COMMANDMENTS? How long do you think the commandments would be then? 1000 pages long?

What harm is there in having a 100000 pages commandment? Have you had a look at the written code of law in the law schools and court that govern civil society today? Can you write this out in a single page like the 10C?

Christians, when pushed, would say the the ultimate commandment is the "Love your neighbour" commandment. But this is not even given as one of the 10C.

davidylan:

If you bothered to read the bible thoroughly as you earlier lied to have done you'd know that the bible does talk about slavery, womens and human rights . . . try finding out what jubilee means in the bible mister.

Yes, the bible talks about slavery, women rights. But only to condone slavery and restrict the freedom and opportunities of women.

davidylan:

This is purely daft. If there was no evil there would be no good either. you need the existence of one to understand the nature of the other. If evil didnt exist then righteousness, mercy, love, kindness, long suffering would be meaningless terms.

If God is omnipotent, could he have engineered a situation where there was NO evil but ONLY GOOD? If he could not, then he cannot be omnipotent.

noetic2:

1. your issues concerning the words of Jesus has been repeatedly addressed.

2. I am not in the best position to determine if a religion leads to transformation of a person's life. . . .I have NEVER practiced a religion . . .So I cannot tell. . . . all I have is a RELATIONSHIP with God through Christ Jesus. . . , .

3. why is point 2 so hard to understand?

I have just given you plenty of examples of people who have personal relationship with Mohammed and Allah and how this personal relationship with Mohammed/Allah has transformed their lives.

So by this sort of evidence, Islam too is true, isn't it?

Another great video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m4KW-dysKk&feature=related

noetic2:

This does not include non-muslims. . ,  . . or does it?. . . .allah is very much against it. . . . .I would not trust a TRUE muslim with my friendship.
do u know that LYING is allowed in islam?
how about the BAD laws?
This is good news. . . , but is 4 wives and several temporary marriages not equal to prostitution? is this a positive transformation?
This is irrelevant. . . .good deeds are ideal and important.

How can a muslim live a better life?  

Your idea of a better life is life outside the will of allah,  . . . .
allah does not allow muslims to offer their friendship to non-muslims. . .he wants them all killed.
Allah promotes indecency, sexual immorality, paedophilia, human and women rights abuses and terrorism. . . . .these are in his injunctions to muslims. . . . .
Any muslim who does not do the above is NOT a good muslim in allah's book,  . .so tell me huxley, how does the above constitute a positive transformation?

Those friends u have are either pretenders or BAD muslims. . . . .

I hope you have not forgotten what we are talking about.   We are talking about the transformation you experience in your life by giving your life to Jesus.  We are not talking about the specifics of Islam or Christianity.  This is what your said:

noetic2:

1. Jesus did not have to come into my living room. I knew all that needed to be known about Jesus and the salvation He offers. . .bear in mind that I was an active church member. But due to the fact that I was not yet born again, I had no intimacy with God, no communion. . . God simply was like a secondary being to me.

2.I was not compelled by arguments, diseases, sickness, miracles, fellowship or reasoning to become born again. . .neither was I evangelised to. I became born again,  .due to a sober reflection and acknowledgement of the divine gift of Jesus. . , I became a born again because I was conscious of the decision I was taking.

[size=14pt]3. If the truth must be told . . . .Life without Christ was of no direction. . . . .though I had a vision. . .I had NO direction.
when I gave my life to Christ, I realised that what I called a vision was a child's play compared to what Christ had in mind for me.
[/size]

4. I enjoy fellowship with Christ. . . , not the church. I commune with the Father and He with me. Its been an amazing experience. . . . more?

By the way, some of the things you accuse Islam of are also found in Christianity and its founding orthodoxy.

For instance, Jesus said the following:

That his disciples should not go to the towns and villages of the Gentiles but only to the Jews.

He also said that he did not come for the Gentiles but the Jews.

He said he was gonna put people to the sword. 

He said people should abandon their families.


Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/But_to_bring_a_sword

[size=14pt]

Anyway, these are distractions.  My key point is whether by adopting a religion one's life is capable of being transformed and does such transformation indicate the veracity of the religion?

[/size]

And this is a GREAT Watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOZSrPF5GNo

Watch this for a Christian priest who converts to Islam: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9DYF87enAE&feature=related.

He says he has become a kinder and better person since converting to Islam. How do you explain that?

He says he is in communion with Allah daily. How do you explain that?

noetic2:

I dont understand what u term as TRANSFORMATION,  . . . .

1. are u refering to the amputation and beheading of defenceless people?

2. Are u refering to allah's instructions that they kill christians and jews. . . that has led to terrorism all over the world.

3. Are u refering to being transformed by the promises of allah. . .which include
a. ALL MUSLIMS going to hell
b. terrorists being rewarded with 72 virgins
c. allah promise to muslim women a place in HELL

4. how transformative is jihad or boko haram?. . .

I have no idea about what u call transformation. . .especially in the islamic context.

No, NO, No, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, NO. C'mon be serious. Are you saying that these are the only ways that Islam can transform once's life?

What about these:

The kindly and friendly disposition?
The disposition to honesty
The disposition to obey some of the good laws of Allah
The abandoning of drugs, alcohol, prostitution,
The conservative dress code

The devotion to prayers, fasting, and communion with Allah.


If Islam is false, why would it transform some people's lives at all? Why do some people become "better" people after having been converted to Islam?

You can find some moslem testimonies on YouTube:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GH7KOxvphs&feature=PlayList&p=D9F664E3DE541D19&index=1


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQrHOL6WMtE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cspGufM1zM&feature=related


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX1pX753-aM&feature=related

noetic2:

any examples of these "transformative powers" ?

I personally know of people who became Moslems and have turned their lives 180 degrees -

They have become more reliable friends, family and business partners.

They dedicate plenty of times in the lives to pray to Allah

The worship and celebrate their ways and laws of Allah

Their vision and ambitions are mediated via Allah.

I had and still have several colleagues who are moslems and these are very good people indeed.



Just think about it this way - at some point in the past they wer no moslems in Nigeria, none whatsoever. And then the people in Northen Nigeria accepted Islam and see how it has transformed their lives.

noetic2:

I would simply ask questions. . . . . , my questions and their answers would reveal their understanding of the choice they have made.
I would ask questions about the many inconsistencies of mohammed. . . the origin of allah. . . . .the inhuman doctrines of allah. . . the reward for following allah. . . the essence of following allah, . . . .their individual position on these pertinent issues involving allah.

Their answers to these questions would reveal their premise for following allah.

Thankx. Does it occur to you that many people have asked these question about Allah and Mohammed and have got back answers which they have deemed satisfactory. To the extend that they have adopted Allah and Mohammed into their lives and are today experiencing the tranformative powers of Islam.

If Islam was false, what accounts for its transformative powers?

noetic2:

1. Jesus did not have to come into my living room. I knew all that needed to be known about Jesus and the salvation He offers. . .bear in mind that I was an active church member. But due to the fact that I was not yet born again, I had no intimacy with God, no communion. . . God simply was like a secondary being to me.

2.I was not compelled by arguments, diseases, sickness, miracles, fellowship or reasoning to become born again. . .neither was I evangelised to. I became born again, .due to a sober reflection and acknowledgement of the divine gift of Jesus. . , I became a born again because I was conscious of the decision I was taking.

3. If the truth must be told . . . .Life without Christ was of no direction. . . . .though I had a vision. . .I had NO direction.
when I gave my life to Christ, I realised that what I called a vision was a child's play compared to what Christ had in mind for me.

4. I enjoy fellowship with Christ. . . , not the church. I commune with the Father and He with me. Its been an amazing experience. . . . more?

Great - I like that. One thing though - Consider this: Supposing I replace God and Jesus in your narrative with Allah and Mohammed and said that some Moslem in North Nigeria has undergone also a great transformation in their life and vision and prospect by accepting Allah and Mohammed. Would you have any grounds for disputing the life-changing and transformative power of Allah and Mohammed?

noetic2:

My decision to give my life to Christ was born out of conscious understanding of present life and realising that there is more to this life than we presently see.
Bear in mind that I had been a "christian" all my life. . .but never really took the final step.
So I took the step to be at PEACE with Christ.

I cant be ridiculed.

Can we have more of the "arguments"  that convinced you into taking the final step?  Did Jesus personally come into your life before you took the step  OR you took the step before he came in?

Recognise:

@Huxley

- Huxley

Brilliant question

For starters, God is 24/7, always present - omnipresent

The litmus test will be GOD will not go against His word

Recall Test 101; the one that Eve woefully failed

(i.e. Satan saying to Eve "You shall not surely die" when God emphatically said ". . . thou shall surely die"

Hello,

Good try - but what questions are you gonna ask God to find out if He was really God.  Or what behaviour traits would you expect to see from him to reassure you that he was really God - behaviour that only God is capable of?

huxley:

Take a look at these to see where I am coming from!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0WTtevBcQE&feature=sub



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0Xv3a70fGw&feature=sub

Don't forget to watch these videos!

Rosabelle:

@Huxley. Could you kindly edit my quotation and take out the part where I inserted an email number (I edited my post as well). I put up the email just for the poster and wouldnt want just anyone mailing me there.
Would be very kind of you. Thanks

Done

Rosabelle:

There is a lot I could tell you. Not to convince you, but to confirm a lot you have said. However we are on an open thread and this is (to me) much too serious an issue to be discussed in a market place (NL).
Im putting up an email address for a minute and then I'l delete it. Contact me on it and we'l mail back and forth in peace.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
All your questions are not based on the existence of God, but on man's faults. Creation is perfect, man alone is impefect. Hasnt this ever made you wonder

Why don't you want to discuss it here?   Evangelists discuss their views in public all the time - why couldn't you?