₦airaland Forum

malmo: This uncertainty has stopped me from ordering vehicles from US for now.If it is implemented, it will only create rooms for smuggling thru the nation borders.

Yup, more smuggling, more hardship for everyone just so that a few privileged officials could push their pet projects and make $$$ for themselves and their cronies.
Until will restrain the Nigerian government from undue meddling in the economy (including the oil industry), we can never make sustained progress. The era of socialist experimentation is gone. The role of governemnt is to create opportunities and level playing fields for all

Fhemmmy:
So minimum is good enough, we are in year 2014 and most car producers won't compromise on safety, head injury is one of the kost horrific injuries and in a nation where no good roads nor health care system, hope curtain airbag wont be compromised.?.. not saying is a must but will b great to ave.

I did not say that is good enough. I was just saying two front airbags is probably the minimum that Toyota etc can not go below even if they are manufacuring in "anything goes" Nigeria. My point is that multinationals are answerable to other governements and publics outside the particular country they are doing particular biz in.

adconline: How can US consumer protection laws protect Naija folks in Naija? How come BP paid billions of $ for oil spillage in the US while same oil companies don't give a fkcuk in Naija.

Have you asked yourself how the Ogonis and the Saro Wiwa family sued Shell in the US and got settlement millions? How about the Soyinka etc case against Abdusalam, etc. My brother, the US courts have exponentially extended their Foreign Torts jurisdiction. The fact that the company involved is doing substantial business in the US most times will suffice to ground jurisdiction.
Have you asked yourself why most US businesses are not setting up shop in Nigeria, except it is in the hugely lucrative oil industry?

Mark my word. If the guys pushing this policy (Aganga, Okonjo-Iweala, etc) seek to gain employment in the Western world after they have left governemnt in Nigeria, they will be denied employment if the employers are made aware of the things they have done with regard to this policy. The prospective employers will seriously judge their judgement, if not their sanity. This is just voodoo economics at its worst. Those Western trained officials need to hide their heads in shame.

sonnie10: I wish you had seen how a full grown man, Toyota CEO was crying in front of US senate during the Prius fast and fury issue. It all about reputation my brother.

My point exactly. Those auto giants are not going to mess with their reputation for a Nigerian market that is just peanuts to them. The N1.2M new car is possible but you can take it to the bank they are not going to be Toyotas and Nissans and Hondas, talkless of the luxury brands.

Fhemmmy: How many airbags do we have in Corolla in Western world? The ones in Nigeria, brand new from SA only has 2 . . Driver side and passenger side at the front.... So dont be too sure that Toyota wont do it.

But they do have airbags. Maybe the two front airbags is what is the minimum industry acceptable standard. Now maybe for reasons of competition or the requirement of the US governemt (or maybe even State of California which usually have higher standards) they could put more airbags for cars made for the US market. Now if they take out ALL the airbags for any vehicle made for ANY market, you must agree with me that is cynical and the global giants are averse to such risks especially if the market is not a big one

Fhemmmy: Cost of production in terms of Labor but to assure the safety of the employees, transportation of finished goods from one location to another (bad roads) cost of keeping the plant open and operational cos of the cost of Diesel and generating plant . . . .I am not sure the cost of production will be that low

I agree with you. I do not know why people keep thinking that the cost of production will be significantly cheaper in Nigeria. The cost of doing business is just way too high in Nigeria. Labor is not the only thing that go to manufacturing costs

Fhemmmy: Yes, Sir . . . Imagine a brand new Kia car with not even a single Airbag

Am surprised that even Kia can do that. But I tell you that there is no way Toyota would put their name to any vehicle anywhere in the world without airbags. The reputational risk alone is just too high and you can be sure that the maybe $1b Nigerian market would definitely not entice them

Fhemmmy: Go and compare side by side the Toyota Cars made in South Africa with same model made in USA and Canada, and you will agree with me that in Nigeria, anything, i mean anything goes . . .

How do those compare in terms of safety...airbags and stuff like that?

Fhemmmy: In a nation where Quality assurance is not necessary, where they can build junk and sell well, where they could give some bribe and compromise safety of those vehicles . . . It will end up being a smart move for those companies.
Will it be to the advantage of Nigerian? That is yet to be seen

You can trust me, they will not do that...the reputational and legal risk is just too much.
Take for example, I am a US citizen on a trip to Nigeria and I get seriously injured in a car accident involving one of those your poor quality Toyota or Nissan. Do you think I will pursue them in Nigeria? Of course not. Do you think I might have some colorable basis to sue them in the USA? You do not know US law if you do not believe I can. Trust me, those Auto giants are not going to do away with their minimum standards just so that they can make $7k cars in Nigeria.

mic foley: Very lively thread. I have my issues with this government but I must say that I really support this new policy though evidently, there are some flaws. One thing most people seem to ignore is that while the tariff on FBU's have been raised, the tariff on CKD's ie completely knocked down parts have been reduced to almost zero. This is sure to encourage assembly plants to spring up and Nissan is already making plans to revive the VON plant in Badagary. The increased tariff is also likely to open the market for Innosons who will increase his capacity and probably go into Sedan/Saloon production. Though I have not driven any of the Innosons models, I have seen the small bus, pick-ups and SUV's on several road trips and they certainly look cool. You would have to look at them really close to know they are not Japanese or European models.
Now, setting up a car assembly plant is capital intensive and to recover costs quickly, a significant number of cars will have to be produced and sold quickly. I believe this will spur the banks to partner with the auto companies to provide financing. Don't forget that assembling these cars in Nigeria will reduce the price of brand new cars significantly and create many direct and indirect jobs.
The other thing nobody has mentioned is the role of the steel industry. WEMCO STEEL rolling mill was recently commissioned in S/west Nigeria while Ajaokuta and perhaps Delta steel are being revived. These companies will have to increase capacity to supply steel required for car assembly thus creating more jobs and strengthening the economy.
As has been pointed out, electricity supply is crucial and I believe that with the privatization process we should get it right this year.
It is vital for government to support the local assembly plants esp Innosons. For example, Innosons pick -ups would make great patrol vans and should be procured in large numbers for the Nigerian Police.
If it is true that Coscharis got waivers or abused its insider knowledge, this could seriously undermine the whole policy. Our borders need to be seriously strengthened or else Cotonou will be the biggest beneficiary of this policy.
I personally think the likes of Coscharis and others like them having enjoyed the waiver regime cooked up this policy to make even more money, and got their associates in governement to force it down our collective throats.
It will not be the end of the world if we do not make cars in Nigeria. We need to stop using the governemnt to pick winners and losers in the Nigerian economy. That is wrong public policy and immoral
All in all, I think we should support this policy because in the long run we stand to gain massively. If we don't do this now, as someone said we could soon see ourselves importing cars from Ghana

Do you trust this governement? Or any Nigerian governemnt for that matter? If they really have the public interest at heart why are they having secret meetings with industry insiders and refusing to open up this policy that is bound to have a major impact to the economy to public debate.
Yes, CKDs will be completely duty free, but I am yet to see CKDs of used vehicles. Why dont they restrict their policy to offering zero duty and other incentives to car manufacturers and assemblers and leave the 20% duty on all others?
But when all is said and done, the taste of the pudding is in the eating. We have had all manner of banned products and high duty regime on other products in this country, ostensibly to promote local manufacture. So instead of all these "ifs" and and other hypothesizing, does it not make more sense to look to how effective those prior arrangements have been to determine how this one is likely to play out? We have lists of banned products as far as the eyes can see, how many of those bans have endengered the flowering of local substitutes? How many wear made in Nigerian shoes only?

Riba_man: Let's face facts, no country ever grew by relying on others to provide all needs.
The automative policy of Nigeria is merely a paper based idea, to move it to the next level, FGN must put in place steps and ideas that will kick start things. You just don't wake up one morning and decide implement an automative policy, that has been gathering dust in one govt dept for aeons.
GEJ has the ideas, but there are times when he appears to shoot himself in the foot. Re this case:
Why the rush, knowing that the requisite groundwork has not been done?
Why is the Stallion group getting preferential treatment?
Why is not carrying the entire country along? Surely his ministers and praise-singers don't constitute any significant number viz-a-viz the population of Nigeria.
As always, with GEJ, a good policy but terrible implementation plans. ( by the way, do they actually employ good and certified Project Managers in the Presidency?)

I think the right name for this should be "import license" policy and not "automotive policy". The people pushing this "policy" know very well who stands to benefit and they have been having secret meetings with those people to set up this bogey. Any policy that requires a massive disruption of socio-economic relationships is not made in the public interest except and until it is discussed and analyzed fully in the public sphere.

Hahahahaha!
Personally I think the miracle was on its way before the impertinent police intervened and messed up the whole thing. Just becuase they said 12.00pm then 3.00pm then....does not mean that we should see it in those humanly temporal ways. Remember God's ways are infinite and one hour could be a million years in the eyes of the Lord. It is possible the Lord planned for the miracle to happen in 1000 years. They should have just allowed those pastors to keep praying until the revealed will of the Almighty is done. Even if that happened at the second coming when all the other dead people will also arise.
People should just learn to be patient!. Lol!!

I suspect that the primary incentive pushing this policy is the increased economic value of "waivers" on car importation. Those standing to gain the most from this policy are those in governemnt and their crony capitalists associates who will be dealing in all manner of waivers. Imagine the value of a waiver for a BMW sedan is about N2.5M today and you can see how attractive that will be when that is increased by 250%. All these people are doing is just trying to return us through the back door to the dark days of import licensing. Soon you will see the well-connected at Abuja making millions from obtaining these waivers and just selling them to the next person. It is just alibaba and the 40 thieves again.
Those that claim that the reason car manufacturing has not taken wings in Nigeria is due to importation of FBU cars, are either ignorant or just frauds. We should all remember that before the advent of tokunboh cars following the liberalization policy of the IBB regime in the late 80s, the so called local car manufactures (PAN, VON etc) had a near monopoly on non-luxury cars in Nigeria. How much did they make of that opportunity? None, they all basically failed and didnt add any local content in the years governemnt protectionist policies gave them a monopoly.
There is much more to manufacturing success than foreign competition. Any industry that needs to hide behind a prohibitive import duty to survive probably has no economic reason to exist.
All that mercantilist policy is outdated and only fosters inefficiency, corruption and unfair economic practices.

This policy is just a poster child for why governemnt needs to show maximum restraint when intervening in a sector of the economy that the market with minimal guidance could take care of. The same minister that is pushing this policy would not even think of anything remotely close when he worked for Goldman Sachs or he would be fired summarily. Now he has a sacred trust as a public official in Nigeria and he elects to play god in a most secretive and destructive way.
Lets examine some of the arguments they claim as making this policy neccessary:
1. The $3b market.- The so-called automative policy claims that there is a $3b market for used and new cars in Nigeria and naturally extends the reasoning to say that the economy will be saved that much if we start manufacturing all cars in Nigeria. The question is, do they have any data showing how much of this claimed $3b is extracted from the Nigerian economy and how much of that market share is from Nigerians in diaspora using the importation of used cars to repatriate some of their earnings to Nigeria? Are they assuming that if they make sending FBU cars no longer attractive that these group of Nigerians will have no options but to just send the dollars direct to Nigeria and spend it on new cars assembled in Nigeria? In any any event what makes them think that a $3b market is enough for global auto giants to ignore the myriad problems associated with doing business in Nigeria and hurry to set up shop here?
2. The claim that new cars will sell for between N1.2M - N1.6M . - I think this figure is fraudulent at best and was just pulled from thin air to bamboozle the public. I dont know about Chinese and Indian brand vehicles but anyone that thinks that Toyota or Honda for example will take the reputational, brand and legal risks and put their names on a sub $7k car needs to have his head examined.
3. Used cars are not new cars - In their rush to sell their defective policy, these guys want us to believe that cars are just like say, DVD players. Used and new are just about the same. This is a fallacy. The world over, there is a huge market for used cars. This is because cars are durable products and a lot of buyers are just content to buy them cheaper after they have been used for more than 5 years still expecting to get some years of quality use out of them. By destroying the used car market so they can promote their utopian "everyone gets a brand new car" sham these people are going to inflict a lot of pains on a lot of the populace.

mayo47: Its a 50% increase not 70%, initially it was 20% (10% tariff and 10% duty) but now 70% (35% tariff and 35% duty)

Wrong. It is a 250% increase. You go from 20% to 70%!!

kakakibuy: Can anyone confirm if this is what the New Policy really implies:

In the event that Govt goes ahead with the new tariffs, how will it affect you? Let's take a look at this scenario. If we assume that at current rates, you need 220,000 Naira to clear a Toyota Camry, whose cost is 986,000 Naira (Total final Cost)

When the 70% increase kicks in, our agent at the port explained that this means there will be a 70% increase in the 220k thus bringing clearing cost to 374,000 Naira and Total final cost to 1,140,000 Million Naira. An increase of 154,000 Naira!!

You have it all wrong. They are saying that you will have to pay 70 PERCENT of the Customs estimated value of the vehicle in duties and levy. Taking your scenario, lets say that customs calculated your "tiny light" camry to be valued at N500k. Under the old regime of 20%, import duty is N100K and the rest of the N220K you paid for the clearing is associated charges and profit for the clearing agent. Under this new policy you will have to pay 70% of the N500K as duty and levy alone before you add other costs. That agent does not know what he's telling you. It is not 70 percent increase on original cost of clearing it is 70 percent duty and levy on estimated value of vehicle. It is the worst kind of tax increase, simply confiscatory.

Ok, let me get this straight...the custodians of the people's sovereignty are "urging"(read: beginning) a claque of unelected officials and bureacrats not to move forward with a policy that is bound to have a massive dislocative effect on both the economy and the society? And we still pretend that we are a democracy?
Just SMH!!!

Books and articles on the nationalist movenemt and the nationalists:
Azikiwe
Awo
Ahmadu Bello
The NCNC
The AG
Adegoke Adelabu and Ibadan politics

I will really appreciate vintage journals and magazines

Books on the colonial era. Reports of colonial officers. REports of constitutional conferences and committees of inquiry

Any books by the first generation Nigerian historians who were all at Ibadan at some point I am particularly interested in:
Kenneth Dike
JF Ade Ajayi
Obaro Ikim
Adiele Afigbo
Elizabeth Isichei
Emmanuel Ayandele
Saburi Biobaku
etc....

Also all publications by the Nigerian Historical Society....the older the better

Guys,
I need a student of history or related field (preferably at Ibadan) to help me source for books on Nigerian history and politics. I am presently out of the country and so not able to go searching for the books myself. The books could be used or new, old or just published.
Of course the student will e rewarded for his help.

otokx: How can you say Nigeria has no health care system. Are you saying there are no doctors, nurses, hospitals or what?

You wont understand. Just ask a Nigerian doctor that has also practised in the US.
And actually it is not even hospitals alone that I am talking about. Talking about the entire healthcare delivery system. The US system is broke and an embarrasment for a major industralised Nation. Nigeria has not even started to address its healthcare problems.

soundtruth: Nigeria is still not so bad.

Actually Nigeria has no healthcare! US healthcare system is too expensive and not nearly ideal, Nigeria has no healthcare system!!

That experience is replicated every day and all day at ERs across the US. The cost of healthcare in the US is just nuts. Healthcare consumes over 16% of the US GDP and even at that not everyone is covered. It is the shame of the US and it is just a manifestation of what putting greed (private insurers; NMA putting up irrational barriers to entry into the medical profession; pharmacies charging a lot more for the same drugs than they do in other countries; a run-away medical malpractise lottery etc)) ahead of the common good will produce.
Cost of health care will surely destroy the US

Any language that is not the language of instruction in schools is headed the way of the wooly mammoth.
Language is a organic, living thing which evolves. The English of today is very different from the english of Victorian times talkless of Shakespearean times. If you pick the Oxford dictionary of today and compare it to that of the turn of the twentieth century, you will be surprised at how much the english language has grown and evolved. If you go into the technical and scientific fields, the difference will be even a lot more glaring.
The most effective mode of adapting a language to changing times is to make that language the mode of instruction at schools.
Until we start to teach our children computer science and geometry and nuclear physics in Yoruba and Igbo and Hausa and Ibibio, etc, those language wil keep falling short in a world that is changing ever so quickly.
Ironically, the fact that Nigeria is a multi cultural society in need of a lingua franca has almost automatically doomed the future of all Nigerian languages. There is no way in today's polarised Nigeria that other ethnic groups will adopt another local language to replace English in all our schools. The paradoxical thing is that at the time of Independence, some "Nationalist" Southerners were actually pushing for the adoption of Hausa as Nigeria's lingua franca. The fact that such tought will be considered heretical today shows you how far we have come as a country.
In the final analysis, it is sad that languages spoken by just a few people in Europe are thriving while those native to tens of millions of people in Nigeria and other parts of Africa are falling behind and doomed to the exotic fate of latin.

I am quite a novice in buildings and the technologies behind it. But I have one observation - these parapets definitely add aesthetic value to the buildings but must they be made of concrete which increases cost and adds more weight to the structure? Why I ask is that here in the US they have similar things on buildings (including the one I reside in) but they are made of wood or cheap light-weight synthetic stuff.These materials have the benefit of cost and are even more maleable to artistic designs. Are those materials not suitable in the Nigerian environment or are they just not available?

Donpuzo: @ikenga..I think I share in your observation. Sometimes I think in our society, the study of law have become a hoax and a sham. The real essence is defeated. It makes things boring for serious minded fellows in the temple of justice.

They now focus on maxims and theories, which in the real sense are of no value, hence practical interpretation of legal principles are not really visible.

I took Constitutional Law last year, legal system and some courses that ought to spur a student to critical legal thoughts. I sometimes think a reappraisal and sound re orientation is needed to re communicate the value of our core legal existence.

I personally love constitutional law, because I can relate with it.

Also criminal law is amazing, but what will you say of the non application of what we read and what is visible in our day to day lives.

A typical example is the theory in criminal law that "the sins of the mother cannot be transferred on the son" I mean the principle of criminal liability. When police arrest, detain and torture parents of an alleged criminal, the principle in the locus classicus case of African Continental Bank v Okonkwo and others is defeated and appears as a total hullabaloo.

I wish I could get ahold of your cons law notes. Having just taken it, do you feel like you have gotten your mind around the constitutional issues of our time? Did you grasp the most important concept that modern constitutional democracy is first and foremost a scheme for limited government, that all the confusing words in the Nigerian constitution are nothing more than attempts to codify entrenched principles of governemnt which seek to strike a balance between individual and group liberties and the need for a functional governemnt?

Creative mind: Respectfully friends, Creative mind is here to announce his appearance before this honourable house. Good morning! There was this argument about LAW and JUSTICE in my Jurisprudence class. The topic for debate was Is LAW the basis of JUSTICE or JUSTICE is the basis of LAW? Learning and Learned minds, what do you think? Philosophers, what is your take?

Are they still teaching Jurisprudence in final year? Even in those days, I could not understand why we had to take such a foundational course (more philosophy and sociology than law) in Final year.
In answer to your question I think a lawyer should instinctively know the law is the basis of justice. Matter of fact it is the basis of society itself, what separates organized society from a hobbesian state of nature. There cannot, from a legal perspective, be any notion of justice outside the law. And by the law I mean the entire gamut including (infact especially!!) procedural law,and the legislative and administrative process. The most important manifestation of justice to the lawyer ought to be due process and equality before the law. Not some esoteric philosophical notion

Lizylaw: ofcus it will b almost impossible for such a principle to work in Nigeria. Nigerians are legally placid, majority of d members of d police force dnt evn knw d law nd wat is applicable in criminal situations, dey dnt evn knw whr dia powers begin or end. Nigerians dnt knw dia rights, so wat do u xpect. Criminal liability as a legal principle in Nigeria will for a long time be only in theory.

I am amazed at you sister. What makes it impossible for us to apply the law in Nigeria? When doctors study medicine, do they come out believing that surgery they learnt is of no purpose just because the most modern equipment are not readily available? Does the civil engineer believe that the calculations he learnt regarding how to construct a bridge only ends in the classroom? Why is the law different? Are we as lawyers failing the society in the very critical roles we have been assigned? What kind of mindset comes out of 6 or so years of legal training believing all that he/she learnt is just classroom stuff?
When you take criminal law class and others do you challenge your lecturer that much of what they are teaching have no practical effect? Do we need to change the way we learn and teach the law in Nigeria?

Creative mind: Well, there is no point lying here. When it comes to getting student refined academically, the faculty of law in my school is not lagging behind. However, in the practical aspect, the school should work on it because if not international in nature, they take it with flippancy. Despite this, the collective effort of students led to the formation of a formidable moot, mock and debate team. We rehearse ourselves, call meetings, prepare for competitions and go on our own. Still with the little attention paid to us in the practical aspect, our record in moot, mock and debate in the past five years is remarkable. I think friends from OAU, UI, LASU, EKSU, EKPOMA and UNILAG can testify cos we've met on plethora of times. In addition, we've never lost in any competition. How do I mean by that, it's either we emerge victorious honourably or we don't at all. Yet, we pick the experience to become better for next time. So if we don't win the prize we gain the experience and also we don't rub people of their victory in our school because fair play helps a lot in making us grow. BAYERO UNIVERSITY, UNIZIK, UNN, NOUN, OAU, EKSU, OOU can testify to that. In conclusion, our academic stand is solid in law but the school is a bit relaxed on the practicals but as students, we've made a team that remains strong for now. We've produced 100 level students who won against 400 level students in competitions many times.

Good! But do you pause at times to wonder as to the proper role of the law in a constitutional democracy? Have you had reason to wonder if what the Police are doing are in consonance with what you have been taught in criminal procedure? If yo have taken cons law, do you have the feeling most of all that stuff na just gist?

What I am driving at, is do you guys think the law you are learning has much to do with the society you are supposed to practise in? Do you sense the paradox in the whole thing? Is it something we can start to change by changing the way we train our lawyers?

lana_Vello: lmao,yeah. actually idk bout oda places buh ova hia in akoka. there's this prestige & honor dat accompanies being a law student. months ago,most of my fellow freshers were so into d white&black shit nd "yanga" nd @d end of d semester flopped.

Have you taken cons law, criminal law, admin law and even tort? I really will love to have email cconversations with anyone that just recently took all or any of those. Just want to see if our law students are still being fed the same crap from 19th century British jurisprudence