Image123: Good. We're almost there. Let's have it ALL on this thread, not a huge fan of OPs. Don't worry, i'm not going to derail the thread, the thread's closed from your end. I just need kunle to yes it on this thread, then each of you's answers to the ten or so questions. I'm not even going to reply or rebut your answers. Take deep breaths, question come up tomorrow morning IF kunle has agreed to answer on this thread. i thank you all sincerely, good night.

nuclearboy: Morning has arrived. I pray Lagos traffic won't keep the Apostle from getting to the office till evening!

Can I get an amen?

Pastor Kun:

Ok I agree on the condition you first answer the last two questions I asked which you have been dodging.

Image123: Haa, you're baiting kunle, well let's hope he falls for the bait. I dey here with my question papers and invigilators.

Image123: 1). Did Jesus Christ ever argue against tithes?
2). Did Jesus Christ ever tell some group of people to tithe?
3). Do you believe that there are different types of tithes in the Old Testament?
4). Do you believe that there was a tithe to be eaten by the giver at home and a DIFFERENT tithe to be given at the storehouse?
5). Did Apostle Paul observe temple rites?
6). Did Apostle Thomas observe temple rites?
7). Is tithe a form/type of giving?
8 ). Is anyone going to hell for giving tithes whether as money or crops today?
9). Were ALL God's workers sustained through tithes in the Old Testament?
10). Is "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come." (1 Corinthians 16:2) a type of proportional giving or not?
Good luck guys, no side talk.

Jem1: 1). Did Jesus Christ ever argue against tithes?

Jesus never argued against Lev 27: 30 “ ‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord.
32 Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy to the Lord.
(See also Deut 14:22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year.)

2). Did Jesus Christ ever tell some group of people to tithe?

Jesus told people who satisfied the criteria in Lev 27:30,32 e.g The Pharisees (who had mint, cumin etc which are farm crops)in Matt23:23 were told ‘this you ought to have done’.

(Jesus never said '10% of wage earners income is HOLY and must be tithed'(Jesus never told them, this you ought to have done); that would be adding to God's word.)

Moses Tithing instructions were to Israelites and there were two groups:
1. People who had the holy items in Lev 27:30,32 & Deut 14:22 would tithe
2. People who did not have the holy items in Lev 27:30,32 & Deut 14:22 wouldn’t tithe. Wage earners existed, some were successful but God did not declare 10% of their earnings as HOLY unto Him, Moses also did not add to God's word by declaring 10% of the earnings as Holy and therefore tithable)

3). Do you believe that there are different types of tithes in the Old Testament?

Sure.
i. Abraham Tithed.
ii. Moses gave instructions on what God commanded MUST be tithed as they were Holy unto Him.
Abraham’s items would not meet the criteria in Lev 27:30,32 (pls refer to quote above); he (Abraham, tithed of his own volition, we are not told God commanded him to tithe the items or would be cursed if he did not).

We must note the differences in the 2 types of Tithes referenced in Hebrews
A: Abrahamic TITHE
B: Moses TITHE

If you believe you (21st century Christian) are commanded to tithe via Hebrews, you must note the characteristic differences in the two. You are not cursed as you cannot meet the conditions of the tithing required in MALACHI (as it is the Lev 27:30,32 tithe)


4). Do you believe that there was a tithe to be eaten by the giver at home and a DIFFERENT tithe to be given at the storehouse?

I believe the Israelites so commanded who had the HOLY items referenced in Lev 27:30,32 must tithe according to God’s instruction.
So yes ISRAELITES who were commanded had to give a tithe for BLOOD Levites, and another tithe to be eaten in their homes IN ISREAL per the Lord’s Instructions

5). Did Apostle Paul observe temple rites?

Yes, it would appear so. Whether he would have the HOLY items in Lev 27:30,32 to give as tithe is another matter. Some Israelites did not have the items and were not robbing God. God personally refused to say 10% of wage earners income was Holy unto Him even though He had the opportunity in Leviticus and wage earners existed when He gave the instruction.


6). Did Apostle Thomas observe temple rites?

It would appear so.


7). Is tithe a form/type of giving?

Yes, tithing which is defined here was a form of giving: Lev 27: 30 “ ‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord.
32 Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy to the Lord.
(See also Deut 14:22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year.)

Some would use the word ‘PAY’ as they teach 21st Century Christians that they must pay or else they are cursed and the devourer would come after them. As you can see, no Christian was directed by God to meet the command in the quote above; MALACHI curse does not apply.

Abraham also gave a tithe.


. Is anyone going to hell for giving tithes whether as money or crops today?
If anyone can meet the criteria in definition of tithe (Lev 27:30,32) and pays as the LORD commands he should be fine.

Conversely, any 21st Century Christian who of his own volition gives 10% of his wages to his pastor/church (without being coerced by lying instructions from the pastor by being told that he robs God if he does not) should be fine.
Any pastor who does that is ‘obtaining under false pretences’.

9). Were ALL God's workers sustained through tithes in the Old Testament?

They would have received tithes but NOT ALL ISRAELITES brought them Tithes. Those who did not have the HOLY items in Lev 27:30,32 were not COMMANDED by God to do( so were not cursed and they were also successful).

10). Is "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come." (1 Corinthians 16:2) a type of proportional giving or not?

NO. As the Lord prospered you does not refer to a percentage, it was more vague and generic than a specified percentage filled with curses of the devourer coming after you.

Image123: 1). Did Jesus Christ ever argue against tithes?
2). Did Jesus Christ ever tell some group of people to tithe?
3). Do you believe that there are different types of tithes in the Old Testament?
4). Do you believe that there was a tithe to be eaten by the giver at home and a DIFFERENT tithe to be given at the storehouse?
5). Did Apostle Paul observe temple rites?
6). Did Apostle Thomas observe temple rites?
7). Is tithe a form/type of giving?
8 ). Is anyone going to hell for giving tithes whether as money or crops today?
9). Were ALL God's workers sustained through tithes in the Old Testament?
10). Is "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come." (1 Corinthians 16:2) a type of proportional giving or not?
Good luck guys, no side talk.

nuclearboy: 1. Jesus never argued about tithes! But he also never argued about men sleeping with men! Is that also then right? Or can you show me where He said "males, please do not strafe yourselves"?

2. Depends on interpretation but we know He lived "under the Law" and was a fulfillment of it so tithes should have been okay for him before the cross! However, there is NO record that His Apostles paid tithes which there should be records of if they put a tenth of the effort we do today on the issue! What we see from the life of the Apostles are freewill offerings! It was good enough for them, its good enough for me!

3. Its obvious from the story of Abram that there was at least that and Jacobs instances of freewill tithing! But Melchizedek did not become a preaching behemoth beggar cursing Abram if he didn't pay it! And we have NO record of Jacob paying - his case leaves the possibility that he may have changed his mind and he WAS MORE BLESSED THAN ANY tithe-monger! Then there are the Mosaic law tithes which are easily separated into 3! I hope you are not saying todays tithes is based on any of all these because that would be a blatant lie from the pits of hell!

4.Jem1 has answered this perfectly. All I will add to it is that nobody remembers the "eaten" tithe today since it cannot be invested in large air-conditioned buildings or schools and universities!

5. Paul (Saul) was a Pharisee - we all know he observed temple rites and even boasted about them. This question makes no sense as it adds nothing!

6. Did Peter, James & John observe temple rites AS THE PHARISEES did (with mouths while their hearts were elsewhere devising how to reap where they didn't sow?

7. "Tithe" means a tenth! Tithe is not "giving" - it is a value and not an act performed! Your word "tithing" is an aberration and a tradition rather than a noun which is what "tithe" meant as a legal term used for those eligible which means some were not eligible to pay it!

8. We live under a dispensation of "Grace" - Nobody is going to hell for lying, stealing, tithes etc. You go to hell based on your situation in Christ and the fruits of that! Don't use tithes in grammar fraudulently to gain points! You are supposed to be a Christian, not the trap-setter who searches for whom to devour. I won't enter that trap!

9.NO, not always!

10. Fallacious trick and unbecoming of a Christian. Some of those your passage referred to gave "love", helped others in times of trouble etc. Being a shoulder to cry on is "giving as God has prospered you"! Same is using your skill as a doctor or nurse to help the injured or sick! But today, giving is just Naira and Kobo! Why do you think that is, Image123? Why don't we eat our tithes with the poor and needy? Why don't we count helping others thru pain as "giving as God has prospered us". I once gave 2 guys wounded in an accident a lift to UCH then paid a deposit for their treatments! Was that giving as Gos prospered me or not!

Why is it only Naira coming to church coffers that is your own giving? Even giving to the widows, homeless and orphans is not good enough for you - it must enter church pockets!

shey u go answer Goshen now?

Image123: Efficoooo! Effiwe!! O ti submit. No cross-checking sef. Goshen still dey pray, e never start, men ought to pray. Kunle, last warning, NO copying or pasting. HEHEHEHE.
SILENCE.

debosky: This Image na strict marker oh!

Abeg oga Image am I permitted to invigilate and watch these students complete their exams?

I also want to make another request to clarify some questions - (maybe belated since some people have submitted their scripts ): Question 5 and 6 - can you be specific on the rites we are talking about here? There are numerous rites including offering burnt sacrifices, going to Jerusalem for passover and so on. Which are you referring to?

In addition, when are you referring to? I would assume as Jews that Paul and Thomas were 'faithful' Jews before they met Jesus and would carry out all the rites as a typical Jew would - are you asking about observing temple rites before or after the resurrection of Christ?

nuclearboy: @image123:

I did answer all your questions but ok -

6. Thomas was a Jew and Jews performed Jewish rites

10. Tithes are a tenth of whatever is being considered. If you "give" someone 1% or 4% or 60%, you are giving! So giving is giving! But we are not talking of just giving here - what is in the dock is giving because you are made to believe or scared into believing that you must make a sacrifice contrary to the tenets of Christ

Pastor Kun: Answers to your questions are as follows:

1. Did Jesus ever argue against burnt offerings? If not why don't you offer burnt offerings today?

2. He okayed it for those under the law and made it clear it was a requirement of the law. That law is not applicable to christians today

3.Yes

4.The tithe you are talking about here was meant to be eaten by the tither with his family in the TEMPLE and not his house as you dis honestly stated.

5.I assume so prior to his conversion

6.Same as above

7.The irony of it is that tithe preachers fraudulently preach it as a payment.

8. Not necessarily but Galatians 5:4 warns that a christian could be caught off from grace by trying to keep aspects of the law. Tithing is an aspect of the law.

9.Nope, their needs were met through various offerings given daily, weekly and during festivals. Biblical tithing occurred only once a year so the temple workers then could not have depended on this once in a year bonanza for their daily up keep but on the other regular offerings.

10.Nope in this case the giver is allowed to determine himself what he would give unlike tithes which was pre determined. Also not that Paul could not have been referring to tithes here as biblical tithes was done once a year and it was NOT money. Paul here was asking for weekly collections for a specific purpose to help believers in need.

Image123:
1). Did Jesus Christ ever argue against tithes?

Image123:
2)Did Jesus Christ ever tell some group of people to tithe?

Image123:
3) Do you believe that there are different types of tithes in the Old Testament?

Image123:
4) Do you believe that there was a tithe to be eaten by the giver at home and a DIFFERENT tithe to be given at the storehouse?

Image123:
5). Did Apostle Paul observe temple rites?

Image123:
6). Did Apostle Thomas observe temple rites?

Image123:
7). Is tithe a form/type of giving?

Image123:
. Is anyone going to hell for giving tithes whether as money or crops today?

Image123:
9). Were ALL God's workers sustained through tithes in the Old Testament?

Image123:
10). Is "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come." (1 Corinthians 16:2) a type of proportional giving or not?

Image123:
10). Is "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come." (1 Corinthians 16:2) a type of proportional giving or not?

Zikkyy:

Don't know where Image is going with this, the idea of it being a type of proportional giving is something i don't understand. That said, i will add that as long as we don't give the whole of anything (i.e. we give part of), then we are giving a proportion (relative to whole). So i'll say 1 Corinthians 16:2 required the people to give in 'proportion' to how God has blessed them. Giving some of our spare time to assist in church is also proportionate giving (relative to the total time available). This approach could actually result in people giving more than a tenth. Image you must understand that relative proportion is not the same as fixed percentages (i.e. 10%), so i don't know what you want to achieve with this. Also note that proportionate giving is not based on set rules and actual proportion when measured in percentages vary from one person to another.

Goshen360:

What tithe are we talking about here? TRUE BIBLICAL TITHE OFF COURSE! Hence, we define "true or God's biblical tithe" as 10% or tenth of increase from CROPS AND ANIMALS ONLY. Jesus was born under the law of Moses and lived in the time of law of Moses. Therefore, Jesus would NOT OR WOULD NOT HAVE ARGUED TRUE AND GOD'S BIBLICAL TITHE as long as it is done according to "GOD'S SPECIFIC INSTRUCTION OF BEING TAKEN FROM CROPS AND ANIMALS ONLY". Should TITHE NOT HAD BEEN DONE OR PRACTICED ACCORDING TO GOD'S SPECIFIC INSTRUCTION OF CROPS AND ANIMALS, JESUS WOULD HAVE CONDEMNED THE PRACTICE JUST AS HE CONDEMNED THE WRONG PRACTICES OF WHAT THE TEMPLE WAS MEANT FOR.



In relative to the biblical definition of God's instructed tithe in Q1, YES! Jesus told "SOME GROUP OF PEOPLE" to tithe (Specifically as defined above in Q1, because these groups ARE NOT TITHING SOMETHING ELSE IN REPLACE OF GOD'S BIBLICAL TITHE PRODUCTS - CROPS AND ANIMALS and because the law was still in effect at the time this was spoken to this "group" and thank God JESUS TOLD SOME GROUP OF PEOPLE, NOT EVERYBODY AND NOT HIS OWN DISCIPLES who will later become the foundation to the birth of Christianity. Who are these "some group of people?" They are scribes and pharisees and religious Hypocrites who taught they can be perfect by works of the law. They didn't understand/know that the law made NOTHING PERFECT NEITHER DO THEY UNDERSTAND THAT BREAKING ONE OF THE LAWS IS BREAKING ALL THE LAWS DUE TO THE FACT THAT THEY ARE BLINDED BY THE LAW of MOSES AND COULD NOT REALIZE THAT GRACE IS NOW AVAILABLE.



Yes but/and religious hypocrites ONLY TEACH/PREACH THE VERY ONE/TYPE THAT FAVOURS THEM AND THEY DON'T PREACH/TEACH THE TRUE GOD'S TITHE THAT IS SPECIFICALLY FROM CROPS AND ANIMALS, RATHER THEY TEACH/PREACH WHAT IS NOT INSTRUCTED AS TITHE CONTENTS. THESE RELIGIOUS HYPOCRITES THAT TEACH/PREACH UNBIBLICAL TITHE SHOULD START TEACHING THAT ONLY CROPS AND ANIMALS SHOULD BE TITHED, THIS IS TRUE AND GOD'S BIBLICAL KIND OF TITHE.



Your/this question shows the fact that you ADMIT THERE IS A TITHE (CROPS & ANIMALS) THAT MUST BE EATEN BY THE TITHERS RIGHT! VERY GOOD. So the answer is YES and this MUST BE CROPS AND ANIMALS STILL. This is the true way to obey the law, if it must be obeyed. Also, the tithe teachers ONLY teach the type that is taken to "storehouse" but they dont teach it must be crops and animal, they teach otherwise. Storehouse? No! No more "storehouse" today but the "church" and we have instruction for the church as regards giving NEVER ON TITHING. If this (true biblical tithing) has to be obeyed to letters, it has to be crops and animals and ALL TYPES OF THE BIBLICAL TITHES HAS TO BE PREACHED AND OBEYED - THE TYPES EATEN BY THE GIVER AND OTHERS AS WELL, NOT ONLY THE TYPE THAT FAVOURS THE TITHE TEACHERS PLUS IT MUST BE CROPS AND ANIMALS AS INSTRUCTED.



Not according to tithe.



Not according to tithe.



Tithe is NOT a form/type of giving because tithe is SPECIFICALLY AND LIMITED ONLY TO CROPS AND ANIMALS while giving IS UNSPECIFIED AND NOT LIMITED TO CROPS AND ANIMALS. TITHING IS ACCORDING TO THE ORDINANCES OF LAW WHILE GIVING IS BASED ON GRACE AND FREE-WILL. The biblical truth/reasons why giving is better than tithing are numerous, it's not restricted by "law" of certain percentage and to crops/animals. The bible tells us we can give OURSELVES (2 Corinthians 8:5) BUT YOU/WE CANNOT TITHE YOUR/OUR-SELF. You can give thanks/glory to God but you can't tithe thanks/glory to God. God GAVE His only begotten Son, He didn't TITHED His only begotten son. I can go on and on to list 1001 unlimited things you can give or that can be given but cannot be tithe. So, TITHE IS NOT A FORM/TYPE OF GIVING.



Error sir. There is NOWHERE GOD COMMANDED MONEY TO BE TITHE. THE ISSUE OF MONEY OR CROP IS OUT OF IT. God was/is specific, He said CROP AND ANIMALS. This again justifies the fact that you know within yourself that God's tithe is from crops and animal, for you to mention crop here. It was men that changed God's specific instruction from CROPS AND ANIMAL into MONEY. This is addition/subtracting from God's word and the end of such people that add/subtract from God's word is written in the volume of books. When money is "given" according to the NT way of giving, it is NOT considered as TITHE from the word of God because it does not fulfill the true biblical tithing pattern/products, hence we should have seen that the rooms of the true biblical tithers should have been filled that there will be no more space/room to take the blessings of open windows. It's either we do it as commanded and receive the blessing or God is a liar but alas, we are doing it as convenient, not as commanded hence we make God a liar by trying to manipulate God. When God told Moses, "make sure you build "according" to the pattern given to you". If it is not according to the pattern, it is disobedient OR counted as though it is not done. If it is MONEY, it is simply considered as giving which i just defined in Q7 that giving is unlimited and unspecific unlike tithe that is specific and limited to crops and animals only.



NO! Not ALL God's workers were sustained through tithe. Moses, Joshua and the likes were God's worker, they were not sustained by tithe. Jesus was born into/during the OT, he did God's work but never received tithe neither was he sustained through tithe. ONLY THE LEVITES AND THE PRIESTS ARE SPECIFICALLY ALLOWED TO RECEIVE OR SUSTAINED THROUGH TITHE. The bible clearly tells us who priests are today; that is we, ALL BELIEVERS ARE PRIESTS TODAY but levites are abolished.

Again, are you agitating we are still under the OLD TESTAMENT? I thought you knew better as a teacher of God's word that, he took away the OLD that he might establish the NEW. Hebrews 10:9-10. Are you saved by the OT or the NT through the blood of Jesus or through the blood of bulls? Definitely, WE ARE NOT SAVED BY THE OT. Why is when it comes to tithe that you tithe teachers quote or put us under the OT? Kill your rebellious children, you guys will say we are no more under the OT. Sacrifice goat and bull for atonement of sin, you say we are no more under the OT. As for in only Tithe, we are under and referred to the OT. Smh for such religious hypocrisy.



This is very simple. You have answered this question by yourself AS YOU SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED IT AS GIVING WITHOUT THE VERSE MENTIONING TITHE OR SPECIFIC PERCENTAGE. This verse is in line with the below verse:
"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver". 2 Corinthians 9:7 kjv.

FEEL FREE TO QUOTE ME NOW.

Goshen360: After quoting what next? You no wan talk ni? Abi your hand don fall ni as you don chew pass wetin your mouth fit contain.lol.