₦airaland Forum

ijawkid: And they'll tell u Jesus was God on earth...fully GOD fully man @ d same time....

Fully Divine and fully man sounds less controversial to me rather than fully God fully man.
God refers to trinity together

This is one of the best article I have ever read.


Mary cannot be described as the Mother of God, because that would make her deity or divine. Simply put God does not have a mother. The last time that we find Mary mentioned in the Bible is in the book of Acts:
“Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day’s journey. And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.” (Acts 1:12-14)
Mary is listed in the passage above alongside the other followers of Jesus Christ. Here we find Mary in prayer and supplication along with everyone else. There is not even a hint that she held a position above anyone else in that upper room, nor is there a hint that any of them were praying to her. In the passage below we find a situation where Mary and other familymembers were outside a room where Jesus was preaching the word of God. Because of the large crowd they could not get inside:
“Then came to him his mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press. And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee. And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.” (Luke 8:19-21)
What did Jesus do when he was told about this? When Jesus was told about this, he told them that his mother and brethren were those who were inside the room listening to him preach the word of God. Why did Jesus make such a statement? He did this because he was showing the people the difference between the natural family and the spiritual family. Yes, Mary was outside. Yes, she was the natural mother of Jesus, but Jesus was showing the people that the spiritual family is what really counts. Jesus showed no partiality even when it came right down to his natural family on this earth. Jesus did not exalt his own mother above anyone else and we should follow that example also.
Should My Focus Be On Mary Or Jesus Christ?
It is rather interesting that the Roman Catholic doctrine regarding Mary mimics actual truth regarding Jesus Christ.
The Roman Catholic teaching known as The Immaculate Conception (Mary being conceived without sin) is a DEMONIC COUNTERFEIT of the sinlessness of Jesus Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:21)
The Roman Catholic teaching of The Assumption (Mary was raised into heaven without dying) is a DEMONIC COUNTERFEIT ofthe actual ascension of Jesus Christ into heaven. (Luke 24:50-53, Acts 1:8-11)
The Roman Catholic teaching of Mary being the Queen of Heaven is a DEMONIC COUNTERFEIT of Jesus Christ being the King of Kings and Lord of Lords! (Deuteronomy 10:17, Psalm 136:3, 1 Timothy 6:15, Revelation 17:14, 19:16)
The Roman Catholic teaching of Mary as a mediator (mediatrix) is a DEMONIC COUNTERFEIT of Jesus Christ being the one and only mediator for mankind! (1 Timothy 2:5)
I do not apologize for telling you that those teachings are not of God at all. They are demonic in origin and they are meant to divert a persons attention away from the Lord Jesus Christ, whowas the only sinless human being to walk this earth. Jesus was the only person who could possibly atone for the sin of the world and that is what he did when he shed his sinless blood upon the cross. Peace has been made through the blood of the cross and a person can be reconciled back to God because of what Christ has done on the cross. (Colossians 2:14, 20, Romans5:6-10) Jesus Christ rose from the dead and he ascended into heaven where he is reigning NOW as the King of Kings and Lordof Lords. (Revelation 17:14, 19:16) After he rose from the dead he told his disciples that ALL power has been given unto him in heaven and earth, and if that does not speak of power and authority then nothing does. (Matthew 28:18-20)
I cannot overemphasize the truth that there is absolutely no hope outside of the person of Jesus Christ. Eternal life is in the Son and Mary has absolutely nothing to do with the salvation ofany soul. SATAN will do anything that he can do to divert your attention away from the only one who can save your soul, and that is Jesus Christ.

ijawkid: That's why I was asking our freind here why he would believe in the trinity and not still believe that mary is the mother of GOD...

Because if Jesus is GOD incarnate(fully GOD and man @ d same time) then it means mary gave birth to GOD...

I may not be sure of evrything but on thiss one point I can Stand anywhere to say this that Mary was never the mother of God.Mary was the mother of Jesus,thats what the bible said.Think about it mary was not divine,Her father and mother copulated.The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary,so the Birth of Jesus was just not Mary,the only factor that made Jesus divine was the Holy Spirit.Mary's part was just to link Jesus to the tribe of David.
I repeat Mary was the mother of earthly Jesus(love to use the word earthly because Jesus Himself pre existed Mary,He was part of the governing council of the earth in the begining)Mary was never the mother of God.
This verse makes it clear
“But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Read it carefuly,God SENT forth His Son(meaning the Son was in exixstence,)

ijawkid: Oh he wasn't drunk....

Because if we assume he was drunk,then we'll have to still assume Jesus was drunker....

But God forbid!!!!

If u'll do a lil research u culd actually understand what the writer of 2kings meant by heaven.....

It was definitly not the heaven Jesus descended from that elijah ascended into....

Hope u get my point??

Jesus definitly knew elijah didn't go to the heaven we all know....

Please I beg u,elijah didn't go to heaven.....

My take on this,Elijah must have been at Abrahams bosom(luke 16vs23).Jesus made it clear that no one had ascended to heaven when he was on earth then.I may be wrong but thats what I think(ofcourse when am not sure;I make that clear).

ijawkid: Oboy the latest is that the trinity dogma has been modified....it is now 1 person manifesting in 3 different ways.........

I dont have a issue with all this stuffs,my point is you have to explain to me,how that came about,and if I cant find the basis in the bible,then I wont agree(Act17:11)
1 person manifesting in 3 different ways sounds razz.
So father,Jesus and HolySpirit is not a person,it is a way.
I disagree
“But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth hisSon, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Jesus is a person.
There point has no biblical basis

ijawkid: U seem to believe in the trinity and @ d same time not believe in it....

Ur colleagues who are trinity adherents would never agree with u that Jesus and the Father are 2 different persons....

Infact they'll tell u Jesus is the Father(Yahweh)....

That's d issue that has been going on here on nairaland for a while.....

And they'll tell u Jesus was God on earth...fully GOD fully man @ d same time....

Ijawkid just like Chukwudi44 stated in one of his post,He said something like 'understanding the trinity is really complex',tried searching for the post,but cant find it.
The bottom line is 1corinthian13:9 We know only a portion of the truth and what we say about God is always incomplete(The Message Bible).
One can only explain/understand the concept of trinity through the help of the Holy Spirit and the Bible(Still at that it will still be minute).
I feel the bible should be checked in light of other verses and not just taking verses out of context.
Let us consider the verse in the bible that I really think refered to trinity in the bible.
1John5:7(funny enough just checked my message bible and that verse was omitted,felt the message bible would have explained better,whao).So there are three witnesses in heaven,the Father,the word,the Holy Spirit,and this three are one (AMP).
It so clear that they are three(1,2,3).They are one could probably mean that the three agree(not really sure if thats the meaning of the oneness).But Jesus layed so much emphasis on the fact that the Father was in heaven,he said that a lot of time,so it is clear from scripture that Jesus was never the Father.If he made it clear that the father was in heaven and He(Jesus) said this on earth then it is clear that they are two different persons(Even He prayed to the father while He was on earth,think about it why pray to the father if He was the father,their are a lot of scripture references to backk them up in my previous post).

So Mary was pure during the conception of Jesus(the scriptures shows that explicitly,but the point that she was sinless has no basis,except you want to prove otherwise.

Ofcourse if the catholics say that Mary was Holy,Pure,Immaculate etc,yes they are right,afterall based on the standard then she was pure,she followed the mosiac law,did the necessary attonement for her sin,the only sin she didnt commit was fornication,which was explicitly sated by the bible(virgin).
But portraying Mary as sinless is a lie,fallacy,arrant nonsense and a hoax completely from the pit of hell.
Portraying her as sinless is wrong,
“As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:” (Romans 3:10)
“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” (Romans 3:23)
Mary was infact a sinner.
There is no basis for comparison of the birth of Jesus with any other person on earth,He was the only person that was born by a virgin(the last time I checked),and His conception was by the overshadowing of the HolySpirit(last time I also checked didnt hear of any other conception by the HolySpirit) so Jesus being Holy shouldnt be a big deal.

“And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree. He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. He hath holpen (helped) his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy; As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever. And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.” (Luke 1:46-56)
In the passage above we find Mary giving all the praise and glory to God because he regarded her low (humble )estate. Mary also rejoiced in God her Savior, and we know that only sinners need a Savior.
“As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:” (Romans 3:10)
“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” (Romans 3:23)
Mary also recognized the fact that the Lord was remembering the mercy that He had promised to Israel through Abraham andHis seed (offspring).
The Lord chose this humble Jewish virgin to bring forth Jesus into the world. He would bring redemption to both Jew and Gentile.
“But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth hisSon, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit ofhis Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.” (Galatians 4:4-6)
The Lord came into this world at just the right time. The fact that Jesus would be born of a virgin was prophesied by Isaiah hundreds of years before the event actually happened!
“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” (Isaiah 7:14)
The word Immanuel (or Emmanuel) means God with us, and thattestifies to the deity of Jesus Christ. Jesus would come forth from the womb of this Jewish virgin because Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. There was no human sexual relations between Mary and a man.

“And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named ofthe angel before he was conceived in the womb. And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him tothe Lord; (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male thatopeneth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.” (Luke 2:21-24)
In the passage above, we are given further proof that Mary wasa mere mortal like the rest of us. Mary observed the Jewish Lawand she did exactly what that Law told her to do (see Leviticus 12:1-. Mary was unclean for seven days and on the eighth dayshe brought Jesus to be physically circumcised, in accordance with Leviticus 12:2-3. Mary then continued in her days of purification (33 days) because that was what was required of her under the Jewish law (Leviticus 12:4). Mary then brought forth the required sacrifices as is written in the following scripture:
“And if she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring twoturtles, or two young pigeons; the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she shall be clean.” (Leviticus 12:
As recorded in Luke’s gospel account (Luke 2:24), Mary brought forth the offerings required in “the law of the Lord.” It is most important that you see that one of the offerings was for the burnt offering and the other one was for a SIN offering. To declare that the Jewish virgin Mary was conceived without sin isto dispute and contradict scripture. So we may rightly conclude, that according to scripture, Mary was in fact a sinner.

Antivirus92: and you believed that that same path your so called 'saviour' followed to this earth can later be dirty or defiled? For me i believe that God has prepared her for that job alone and gave her certain graces that will always enable her to keep herself clean which we ordinary humans lack. We doesn't do use and drop.

Guy relax,am not done,am using my phone,so it will take me a lot of time to finish my write up.

Mary was born during the dispensation of Law,which means the basis for her justification,will be her obedient to the mosiac law.So if she sinned all she had to do was offer the necessary sacrifice to atone for the sin

There are seven distinct ages(dispensation) throughout the entire gamut of Human history. They start and end in paradise, but O what a difference between the beginning and the end of this matter. Human history begins with Paradise Lost(Eden); it ends with Paradise Restored(Heaven).
The seven ages are:
1. The Age of Innocence
2. The Age of Conscience
3. The Age of Human Government
4. The Age of Promise
5. The Mosaic Law
6. The Dispensation of Grace
7. The Millennial Reign of Christ and the Redeemed.
I dont have the time to explain everything,but I will explain the ones relevant to our discussion.
In the dispensation of law, God gave detailed instructions about how to live, how to structure society, and how to live justly and righteously as a nation. The people said this was good; they could implement these laws and create an upright society. They said in Exodus 19:8 , “All the Lord has spoken we will do.”
At Mount Sinai, the Israelites encamped, and Moses went up to the mountain to hear the Word of the Lord. For them, that Wordis the law. This is not just the Ten Commandments written by the finger of God on tablets of stone, but the 613 moral and ceremonial laws contained in the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.
The Dispensation of Grace is what we sometimes call the churchage. It is highly relevant to us, because we live in this age. For the first five ages, we can only look back in history to see how God worked in the past. But in this age, we can see how God is working now. The sacrificial death of Jesus Christ on the cross introduced a dispensation of unmerited favor, called grace. Instead of requiring man to live righteously by keeping the law,the righteousness of Another, is imputed to undeserving men and women.
Perhaps the most pertinent scripture for this age is where Paul said: By grace we are saved through faith and not our works. Ephesians 2:8-9 .

Antivirus92: if mary is not immaculate,then why was she chosen? I know that somebody must surely be chosen,but why is she the one? You're arguing if she's a immaculate but we know very well that the holy spirit doesn't engage HIMSELF with any thing dirty or corrupt.

Have really learnt a lot,am really enjoying this whole discussion.
Mary was immaculate(at the time of Jesus' conception),she was Holy according to the standard then but she wasnt sinless as she is portraid by the catholics.Let me explain what I mean.

This is pure common sense,that if someone sends a list of names or pictures to a pastor,all you are saying is pastor,who is the best match out of the whole list,what that means is the best husband on the list,and that doesnt equate to your best husband in the world.That way they have narrowed God down to choose out of their list.
The right procedure will be to opens ones mind to God without any preconceive idea of anybody and after receiving,you then ask for confirmation from a pastor(pastor,I receive so and so,I want you to pray along with me if He/she is the will of God,that way you know if your choice is from God or your emotions).
But its easier said than done,sometimes our emotions just takes over,

stagger: God removed his hand from matchmaking after Adam told him "it was the woman you gave to me that gave me of the fruit and I did eat".

Now it is a man's job to go around, look for a woman, toast her and marry her. Simple.

Who told you that,that is a fallacious statement,God still choses for those who are willing to hear and listen to him.
Abeg stop preaching heresy

My papa land,I love am die,I am proudly Naija and I remain Naija for life.Come rain ,sunshine,harmattan I will remain naija.
@Op,if I hate naija where I go claim as my land.
Dont worry we will soon take power away from all this useless power broker,its only a matter of time.Thats why I advise that everybody who has Nigeria's best interest at hand to try joining politics,so we can take power away from all this big theives,and change our papa's land to the best we want it to be.
The fact is if we sit down and do nothing about it now,it will keep deteriotating and it will only get worse.
My Signature says it all.
I remain Naija for life.
Kosi ilu to dabi ilu mi o naija,me le gbagbe ilu mi o naija,ajo o le dun ko dabi lie o naija,me le gbagbe ilu mi o naija.

My whole point is Jesus' Holy/immaculate conception by Mary and the Holy Spirit doesnt prove to us that Mary was free from sin,So far Mary's conception by her parent was a result of the union of her father and mother,that alone defiles her and makes her a sinner,Everyone born of a man has a sinful status,all have sinned and mary is not an exception.
Study your Bible.

k2039: The bible said in John5:39,Search the scriptures ...........Your basis for the immaculate conception is based on what someone said(am sure it will be one of your past pope),but the fact remains that there was no record of any immaculate conception in the bible(probably have not found it,so refer me ,if their is any ).
If I were to follow your assumption on immaculate conception,the fact that Mary's conception by her parent wasnt immaculate is enough reason to defile her and taint her(afterall her father slept with her mother to concieve her except you want to prove otherwise).
Mary refered to Jesus as Lord and Savior,I think it will stand to reson that if she was sinless,she wouldnt have refered to Him as savior.There is no where in the bible where Mary was portraid as sinless.I know your basis for the immaculate conception is because you beleived what you were told.Open your mind to the scriptures,dont read it with preconcieve mindset,search for your self and you will realise that the whole immacultate conception thing is ARRANT NONSENCE. (JOHN14:6)

I made a mistake that the bible didnt record any immaculate conception,what I meant was mary wasnt conceive immaculately by her parent,that is enough reason to defile her and make her a sinner(Jesus was immaculate because His own conception was done by the Holy Spirit(Isaiah7:14,Mathew1:18).

chukwudi44: I believe in the immaculate conception because the virgin mary herself confirmed it @ lourdes during her apparition to st bernedeate.

I BELEIVE IN THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION OF JESUS(ISAIH7:14,MATTHEW1:18).MY POINT IS JUST THAT MARY WASNT HOLY AS YOU CLAIM,SHE NEEDED A SAVIOR JUST LIKE EVERYONE,SHE WAS A SINNER LIKE EVERYOTHER PERSON(THE WHOLE IMMACULATE STUFF MEAN THE CONCEPTION WAS WITHOUT SEX,SHE DIDNT SLEEP WITH ANYONE,BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN SHE WAS PURE OR FREE FROM SIN,EXCEPT YOU WANT TO TELL ME THAT THE TERM SIN REFERS TO ONLY SEX ALONE,THEN WILL I AGREE SHE WAS WITHOUT SIN).
I BELEIVE IN THE TRINITY(1JOHN5:7),THAT GOD IS MADE UP OF THE FATHER,SON AND HOLYSPIRIT,AND THAT THE THREE PERSONS ARE DISTINCT.

chukwudi44: The Christian doctrine of the Trinity defines God as three divine persons (Greek: ὑποστάσεις):[1] the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. The three persons are distinct yet coexist in unity, and are co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial (Greek: ὁμοούσιοι)

How is everything above different from what I explained,become someone says their is a concept called trinity is not enough reason for me to beleive,I digged up the scripture myself and came out with all the points above.
The issue with you is just that you tend to accept everything you told by your leaders,without checking it for yourself.
The definitin you wrote,was copied from somewhere,you should have taken your time to explain,if you really understood the concept.
The point is the whole definition above is not different from what have explained,so I dont understand why you think I dont understand the concept of trinity,for every statement I made I gave you atleast a biblical reference to back it up.
Lets look at what you wrote above.The three persons are distinct and yet coexist,it so obvious that the three persons are different,my whole point is Jesus was never the Father at anypoint intime.
I understand your point anyway,that the word God should refer to the combination of the three persons,but even still at that Jesus cant be called God,because Its the combination of the three persons that make up God(since you dont want me to use the Godhead,and besides I refer to the Father as God),It wont still be right to call Mary the mother of God,Since God refers to the three persons and Mary ofcourse didnt give birth to the other two(God and Holy Spirit).
So saying Mary is the mother of God is fallacious,Mary was never the mother of God(Since your God refers to trinity) and never will,she gave birth to only the earthly Jesus and not the Father nor the Holy Spirit.

chukwudi44: I don't think you really understand the meaning of the term trinity.I would leave it for you to google and study iy.

I would have to go back to sleep now.I had such a long joutney,we will continue our discussion tomorrow.Tkia and God bless

Goodnight,Have a great night rest.God bless you too.
I dont understand the concept of trinity,I agree with you,then exlain to me with biblical references and not some assumptions made by some pope or cardinals or some priest.
Act17:11 is something I do,so you have to back your explanation with the bible(mind you I dont mean taking the bibile out of context.)

chukwudi44: @op and ijaw kid

The high esteem the virgin Mary is held in the roman catholic,eastern and oriental orthodox churches is based on the premise that she was specially prepared to give birth to God the son.As the source of Jesus's flesh and blood we believe she was conceived immaculately and specially preserved from original sin to avoid tainting the christ.

On that basis and also with several extra biblical testimonoies do we always based our beleives on the veneration of saints.The honour is not the exclusive preserve of the virgin Mary but she is the most venerated because of her special relationship with her

The bible said in John5:39,Search the scriptures ...........Your basis for the immaculate conception is based on what someone said(am sure it will be one of your past pope),but the fact remains that there was no record of any immaculate conception in the bible(probably have not found it,so refer me ,if their is any ).
If I were to follow your assumption on immaculate conception,the fact that Mary's conception by her parent wasnt immaculate is enough reason to defile her and taint her(afterall her father slept with her mother to concieve her except you want to prove otherwise).
Mary refered to Jesus as Lord and Savior,I think it will stand to reson that if she was sinless,she wouldnt have refered to Him as savior.There is no where in the bible where Mary was portraid as sinless.I know your basis for the immaculate conception is because you beleived what you were told.Open your mind to the scriptures,dont read it with preconcieve mindset,search for your self and you will realise that the whole immacultate conception thing is ARRANT NONSENCE,there is only one person that was sinless and that was Our Lord Jesus.

Is veneration of saint biblical?,if it is refer me,and if not the whole thing is a HOAX.
THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO GOD,AND THAT IS JESUS,NOT A SAINT (JOHN14:6)

chukwudi44: In essence what you are trying to say is that while on earth Jesus wasn't God and you don't believe in the trinity?

1John5:7.I beleive in the trinity,but Jesus was never God,or else He wouldnt have prayed to God when He was on earth,and He wouldnt be interceeding for us now,if He was God.
Think about it,the Isrealite refer to God has Elohim(and you think that it is a coincidence that elohim means Governing council).
Besides in Genesis1:26,Let US make my in our own image .........Us shows that they are more than one.
My whole summary is that God the Father,Jesus and Holy Spirit are three different persons but the three make up the Godhead,that we refer to trinity.
The God we refer to is actually GOd the father.
Or maybe you proove otherwwise

ijawkid: Oh so are u of the opinion that God the Father and Jesus christ are 2 different persons

Prove otherwise.
God,Jesus and Holyspirit are all part of the Godhead.
Jesus Christ said a lot about God being in heaven.
John 4:16.I will pray the father and He shall send you another comforter(refering to the Holy Spirit).It definitely shows three difernt people,the Father,Jesus and the Holy spirit.
John10:30.I and my Father are one(very straight forward statement,their are two differnt people,the Father and Jesus).
I beleive Jesus wasnt a superman when He was on earth,that He was really human (Hebrews4:15,Genesis3:15),I beleive His perfection was because He was filled with the Holy Spirit(Matthew4:1),and He was really close to His father while He was here on earth(Mark1:35).That was why He could tell us that we could do greater works than His.
Paraphrasing His statement will mean,If I could do it,you can do it and even more.
Just check the bible references and you will understand what I mean.
Also check Luke23:46.
Think about it,if they werent,then why should Jesu pray to Him.(Mark1:35)

Joagbaje: Yes I agree . But you don't see to get my point. The sainthood of Mary is not based on her death . So there's nothing so special about the sainthood of Mary .The sainthood of Mary is the fact that she believe in God. Every christian is a saint and it's on that ground that Mart became a saint too. I am a saint.

Romans 1:7
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints. . .

I understand your point,I know we are Saints ,afterall we are the rightousness of God in Christ Jesus(2Corinthians5:21),funny enough my facebook name has a saint in front of my name at a point in time,2yrs ago.Besides I think they also need to know that we are also a royal priest(1Peter2:9,Revelation 1:6).
Just wondering on what basis is/was Mary a saint to the catholic,and if that is/was enough reason to pray through her(afterall have heard they dont pray to her but they pray through her,just wondering what their marian worship is all about then).I need a convincing answer from a catholic,and maybe I could just become a catholic,just want the person to prove it to me beyond reasonable doubt,and I promise the person that I will be in his/her church on Sunday for mass.
The fact that mary was able to convince Jesus to turn water to wine at Cana doesnt mean Mary has much say over Jesus(Read Mark3:32-36),that is not enough reason to pray through her.So I need a good point from chukwudi44
So I need a good point from chukwudi,a catholic or any marian in the house(afterall Blessed Saint Pope John Paul 2nd said he is a marian and that every marian beleives in Jesus but not everyone who beleives in Jesus is a marian).
Thats is a statement from the a supposedly head of the church(catholics claim that the pope is the head of the church).The papacy is realy a big hoax and scam.

Joagbaje: Mary recieved the holyghost too, which proved she was born again. she waited along with other apostles

Act 1:14
14 All of these with their minds in full agreement devoted themselves steadfastly to prayer, [waiting together] with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

The fact that one is baptised with the Holy ghost doesnt mean one will make it to heaven,one could backslide after receiving the Holy ghost.
Your assumption will be that after her baptism with the Holy ghost,she remained that way till her death(she remained in Christ till her death).
But the fact remains that we dont have any fact about her death,so why should I assume she died in the Lord.
Am not saying she might not be a saint,but my point is their is no evidence to support her sainthood.So praying to her as a saint is foolish when you cant prove beyond reasonable doubt that she is a saint.
Besides praying to a saint is not even biblical,it's a HOAX.
Even we dont pray to Jesus our Lord and savior,we only use is name as access when we pray,we pray to God and God only(John 16).
Joagbaje I know you know that,just trying to make a point clear to our catholic friends.

ijawkid: If Jesus while in mary's womb was GOD incarnate,and after birth was fully GOD and fully man....then what is wrong if mary is called the mother of GOD??

I cant stop laughing,you are so funny.
John 1:14.The word became flesh and dwelt among us.
John 1:1.In the begining was the word.............
Genesis1:1 In the begining God created.............
The last two verses made it so clear that Jesus existed before the whole creation,and Mary was not present there,so she pre-existed Mary,but for God to fulfil the plan of redemption as He said in Genesis 3:15,Jesus had to come in human form(also read hebrews4:15,so you know why He had to come as flesh).
Jesus himself made it clear while he was on earth that God the father was in heaven(Matthew7:21,Matthew10:32,their are lot of references pointing to the fact that God the father was in heaven).So explain to me how,Mary is/was the mother of God.
Mary was never the mother of God,the fact that Jesus said His Father and He are one doesnt equate to Mary being the mother of God.
If thats what your papacy is teaching you,then the papacy is wrong.Last time I checked the first pope(Peter) never said anything like Jesus being the mother of God.
I know one of the apsotles said something like 'Mary mother of our Lord',cant remember the verse but he was right anyway,since Jesus was our Lord.
But the whole point is even Mary understands that Jesus was her own Lord and Savior,and that the only reason she had to mother Him was because God needed a womb to fulfil his plan of redemption,and she was just lucky to be chosen,and I know she will be ever grateful to God for that.

chukwudi44: What makes hers so special is that she was the only one chosen and specially prepared to bring forth the messiah into the world.I know everyone were born virgins including pornstars but not everyone remained chaste.

Someone definitely hard to be chosen,no big deal about that,that was God's grace on her(that was why Gabriel refered to her as highly favored),and I know Mary was a good mum,if not God wouldnt have given her that privilege.
If your statement is anything to go by(not everyone remained chaste),I assume your chaste doesnt mean morally upright,but that she remained a virgin throughout her lifetime.If my assumption is right,then you are wrong.Mary didnt and never remained a virgin.

chukwudi44: Except Jesus didn't search d heavens well enough to see where elijah and all the other partriachs of old were hidi

But the fact remains elijah was taken up to heaven in a whirlwind.

Give me time and I will trash this outI definately have to go check the greek/hebrew word used by Jesus and the one in used by Elijah.Need to do my research,will get back to you on this point.
May I ask you where you got your fact from(the fact remains that Elijah ..........),maybe that will ssave me the stress of doing any research.

chukwudi44: Romans 1:3-4
New King James Version (NKJV)

3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

This makes it clear Jesus was a descendant of david according to the flesh.He got his flesh and blood from mary who was descended from the clan of david

No one is disputing the fact that Mary is/was the earthly mother of Jesus,but Mary was never the mother of God.The fact that Jesus said I and my Father and one in John 10:30,doesnt equate Mary to being the mother of God.When Jesus was on earth,God the father was in Heaven,so explain how Mary became the motther of God.

chukwudi44: By making fun of a canonised scripture like the book of macabees.In case you don't know more detailed work about the life of the macabees are found in writings of secular historians most notable josephus.The macabees ruled over judea from the mid second century BCE till the roman conquest of judea by pompey in 63 BCE

I do have the deuterocanonical and aprocyphal bible,I read them ofcourse.But the general bible doesnt have this books.
Besides if dont have any problem with first macabees,but second macabees,since macabees wasnt not sure of what He wrote in the second book,why should I.