₦airaland Forum

Elkewwty:
Who could have created the universe if not God? your dad

It often taken as an unjustified given that the universe is a creation. An assumption theists try to force down everyone's throat. The question 'who created the universe' already assumes a sentient being behind the creation, the only answer required is the identity of the being.

Can we go back to the Glamour of Atheism?

smartigo:
Prior to His coming, there was never love,peace and hope in the true essence of it for mankind. Jesus brought love through FORGIVENESS, peace through Liberation by His word rather than with the sword and hope for a life after this world.

Jesus made it possible for the interaction between many races on the account of 'The day of Pentecost'. The word Christian was coined from Christ by the action of His followers.

This is an idealized distortion of human history in order to make sense out of Christianity. Love, hope and forgiveness can be fulfilled by just a single act, just one act. It is an exaggeration to claim that prior to Jesus, no human being with filled with raging emotions or weakness ever did an act of love.

I think the best form of morality is that which promotes self perfection. I hope you agree with me, I doubt if loving your neighbour(trying to seek her approval) makes one better. Besides, love has an element of sacrifice involved, therefore sacrificing one's self for a neighbour is a hatred for one's self.

smartigo:
@ MizMycoli
Now you have modified your question making it more objective as against your initial questions that followed the thread which came off as putting the blame on Him.
I will be back, am reading some of your religious threads.

Your words are deep! Too many why nots, what ifs....although I agree with some.

***********************************
Let me answer the question of the thread before going into your hypothesis.
I don't believe that Jesus needs to save the world than what he had done, rather save His people by raising men/women of virtue to formulate policies that will create peace. More so, he knew it will get to this.

Jesus never brought religion but Love,Tolerance, Peace....Hope etc. The Jews never accepted Him because they had a warped concept of his ruler ship.

I don't want to go biblical but you also need to know this: This world is damn; too many evil people with few good people. Too much politics is involved in every happenings in world.

On the issue of religion. The evil of men have bastardized religion to further create division. Even before Jesus came, has the world been set right with the practising religion of the olden days? What is religion? Isn't it a way of life;a guideline or precept on what to do or not to which invariably means LAW. The question now is: why do we need law?

I have n I still find myself in a situation where I question if God truly exist to allow all these evil. But I found the answer in God's words. I am not of this world, I can also take charge with the choices I make, with prayers(if I believe), and more importantly,there are always two kinds of people,things etc.

Lastly, if you believe, you just preached with your last statement which is a clarion call for everybody irrespective of what they believe in or not, to promote justice, fairness and peace with their fellow being

@the bolded, prior to Jesus' adventure on earth, love, peace and hope must have existed; so what is this man bringing?!

Are hope and peace within the package of love?

MizMyColi:
Love.
It is the greatest kind of wisdom.

And I reckon with paul of the bible who said "I am nothing but clanging frying pans if I speak in all the wisdom of men, do all the doables, and yet, have no love.

There is wisdom in love.

But there might not always be love in wisdom

Its like love is a totality of everything pleasant.

smartigo:
Pls, why will a christian do that for a SPIRITUAL PROGRESS? Or could you shed light on spiritual progress to get you better?

The fact someone chooses not to follow the tenets of Christianity, does it make the tenet void n null itself? That is why Joshua said, choose this day whom to follow. The greatest gift giving to mankind is the power to choose n subsequently live by its result. Read Gen 8:22; 2peter 2:21.

So,the fact a believer chooses to live like the non-believers doesn't make it a yardstick for Christians to follow.

No I was not saying a Christian should live like a nonChristian, rather his spiritual progress should be measured by that of nonchristians. for example in a car race, the success of the 1st is dependent on the failure of the other racers.

What if Jesus was trying to prove that his way of life was the best way to live. He probably saw living as a series of actions, and sin as an action not the abstract construct or reitifed entity Christians have made out of it. Because I have listened to what Christian theologians and pastors say about Jesus' death and it does not make an iota of sense. Most of them talk about Jesus finding a key to death or defeating Satan in a battle in the underworld. Easter itself has turned to a joke and a bizarre celebration of death.

Christians should try as much as possible to use non Christians as yardsticks for their spiritual progress because everyday, there is no difference between the 'saved' and the 'unsaved'.

Which is a greater value: love or wisdom?

Ubenedictus:
i do not know up to 3 saints who are sinless, so I'm right if I say, the saint sins and good is found in the very worst sinners.

God loves in an interesting way, we are loved irrespective of our sins. God detest sin but he loves the sinner. the sin should be condemned but the sinners are taught to live better. each man is still responsible for his sins but the hatred and indignation for sins are not to be transferred to the sinner.



I hope u understand

it helps u see past the sin and. see the person. it is an experience

Note what you said: the sinner is responsible for his sin. The sin makes the man a sinner, it forms a part of the identity of the sinner. The punishment for he sin is delivered upon the sinner. The bolded is a repetition of your prior post I 'attacked'. The situation where I will agree that the sin is separable in a meaningful sense from the sinner, is when God lets into heaven a Sinner but not his sin. Or punishes the sin and not the sinner. Responsibility is the bond that binds the sinner to the sin.

asalimpo:
The supernatural is a by product of spiritual dynamics usually initiated by a believer (or som1 who understands spiritual forces)
.Being spiritual, it is outside of d realm of the five senses and logic but it's effect can be experienced in this material realm.
When it does, there is no argument tht a supernatural event has occured.(though u'll alwayz hav doubters/sceptics).
You can then prove the event in this world. I.e thru d senses.

Like i said, many christians have substantiate the supernatural in their lives,proving that God's word is true and He exists.

Infact, God challenges Christians to prove him.

The first step to be taken is to explain what is the material world, because physicists, philosophers, theorists believe that atoms, waves, light, space, to an extent information which are invisible are material. So clearly delineate what the material is as different from the spiritual. Because it is too easy to misunderstand what you mean by material.

Second step, is an effect from a supernatural cause supernatural or a natural in nature? Because if you say the supernatural creates a natural effect, I can easily resort to the logic that it is more plausible for a natural cause to lead to a natural effect. On the other hand, if you say the supernatural creates a supernatural effect, the effect by virtue of its supernatural nature, is incapable of detection. So which is it?

asalimpo:
many people substantiate the supernatural over and over again.
Infact, religion has little present value if it doesnt affect the adherents in this life.

How? With the same senses that are incapable of detecting the supernatural?! You are in a dilemma, because you believe the supernatural exists and it cannot be detected with the senses, yet you contradictorily rely on those same incapable senses to detect the supernatural!

asalimpo:
that's right. Immateriality cannot explain at all, man's sense of morality.
A sense tht doesnt need education, is universal and generally similar.
Y don't other creatures hav it?
To decide something is good or evil, there should b an external and universally recognised standard of wat constitutes good/evil. Most times people assume others accept this standard most times this assumption holds tru.
Question then is, how were these universal standards of morality developed.

A simple breakdown of morality shows that it is a set of rules on living, right?

I believe religions through rituals, try to tell a story of meaning. They try to tell with wonder how beautiful life is but to achieve that aim, they need an authority to confirm the meaning. Hence Gods are created to create a world of wonders and meaning, thereby making life worth living. Imagine if an omnipotent being such as God, finds within his blissful judgment a good reason for you to exist at all. That to many people is the ultimate affirmation of life; even though it begins with a lie.

However, rituals get tiring. The human mind through curiosity fosters a healthy skepticism, some of us find God too intimidating and too frozen in the times he was created. We create new ones - ourselves. i must admit I'm egocentric to a fault. the world revolves around me. The old God falls too quickly upon mild skepticism, my mortality renders me incomparable to the old God. Those are my troubles at least.

We need an atheist section.

Bobbysworld28:
1. Materialistic as in belief totally in the material world. Meaning if u cannot touch, see or smell it, it does not exist! Hw can u prove atoms exist if we go by ur theory?

2. U adapt to it. U cannot even go against physical codes without reoercussions much more univerasal ones. So if traffic laws dont fit into ur lifestyle, do abandon urself to recklessness? Consequences, bro, consequences!

1. But to a physicist, the atoms are the concretes of the 'material world'. The physicist in turn is often regarded as the penultimate materialist, even though the world he investigates is way beyond his immediate senses. I find that to the contrary of what you trying to say

2. but your values define you. Your values cannot be compromised, to adopt it to a universal code is to compromise it. for example, you wouldn't follow unjust laws, right?

MizMyColi:
Phew Phew!!!

Now that everyone has gone to sleep, I should ramble a bit.

I am mizmycoli; life and love my religion.

My name is Adannaya; I am my Father's Daughter.

I've tried to fit in somewhere, belong, but I don't actually. I haven't tried satanism tho'.......won't.

I still got scales of religion in me, a huge chunk's falling off though.

Somehow, a bible that made so much sense 1 year ago now has a lot of contradictions.

At this phase, a lot of themes seem confusing, especially scriptures, the same ones I used to hold dear and defend, albeit blindly..........

Right now, I don't believe in the God of religion(s) anymore. I just know that there's a creator who's interested in those he created.

This I have seen evidenced in my life many times.
Okay, now I'm saying this at the risk of sounding foolish, even to self.

Lolest

For some strange reason, I'm smiling and grinning right now..........

Owh, I gerrit now.

I've just been reminded of what matters most.

While I may never be totally cured of religion in this age, I've dedicated my life, my being, to living a life filled with Love, filled with compassion, I could never go wrong towing that path.

Sounds lofty and too good to be true, ey?

Well, I'm already on the path......I intend to get there.

I'm getting more curious by the minute, what substantiates your conviction in a God when you realised the old one of organised religion was a distorted one. Isn't it ideal, you have wipe your mind and make it a clean slate and open with the curiosity to explore and discover?

Bobbysworld28:
1. All supernatural claims are false? I thought it was the religious folks who were so utterly dismissive! Let us take a look at science for instance, what u consider plausible today would have been described as madness a couple of centuries ago in the scientific world. Einstein postulated abt black holes and u all agreed without any physical evidence. U see the issue with the atheistic world view? Very materialistic! Meanwhile u conveniently forget that life is beyond what ur physical senses can define.
If we take what u have said as truth and empirical evidence comes up tomorrow, wouldnt u shift ground? Dismissing the supernatural as mere fairytales is incredible coming from you.

2. Even if u create ur morality and it is unsustainable in the universal morality code, r u not aware that a backlash will ensue? If one can create his own morality independent of the harmonious, what stops another from doing the same. In the end, chaos ensues. That is what atheism teaches!

1. Note my post carefully. Supernatural claims are false for the reason that the claimants have no means of substantiating the claim. The supernatural is said to be beyond our senses and our rationality. So even if we see a supernatural phenomenon, we wouldn't grasp it. You have to be very carefully with your language, because what you mean by 'very materialistic' is vague in relation to what black holes are. So pls try not to misunderstand me.

2. And what if the universal code doesn't fit your values? would you still adopt it?

MizMyColi:

Rewards?

Jeez, are you for real?

Love in itself is a reward, imo.
Especially seeing as humans aren't inclined "to love"


In other news, I see you dodged a very important question........
I came bare.
I bared my mind as to what I believe and even unknowingly retrogressed to defending a religion/system I've lost confidence in.


You could tell me yours and we'd keep conversing or...........

LoL.

I said I wasn't a Christian, I can easily be identified as an atheist. I don't like labels either, they are too restrictive and suffocating. Hope you realize that the fact you 'love' others, does not imply they 'love' you in return. Sometimes people 'love' in order to be 'loved'. i'm afraid and wary of love because it is born and derives its joys from the instinct to possess.

KingEbukasBlog:
If atheism is true ... As regards to my life , I nearly died seeking after the works of physicians , from one doctor in Abia state to another ... who did I not go to ... the look on my mum's face as the doctor gives his usual report of we didn't find anything , It could be ... *sigh*

and just a simple prayer saved me from torture I had for close to 4 months. Undiagnosed stomach ache that kept me crying and in indescribable pain when I was young

Just a simple prayer...

11 years ago till now and the future .. Il forever remain grateful. .

My God does not work with logic and mere intelligence of man ...

Il be the greatest fool on earth if I deny the existence of
God

Thank You Jesus

Prayers don't build bridges or universes, nor do they solve real problems. The world's problems are not solved by helpless prayers but actions. And who is this vague God of yours??

MizMyColi:
Excuse me, did you read the text completely, how could a small cord, used to shoo away things cause such destruction of lives and property. FYI, imo, I can only imagine what Jesus' presence alone in his day must have caused, seeing as he was a celebrity of sorts. These are mere speculations, things you so desperately wanna believe about Jesus.
Meanwhile, you must have let yourself get influenced by that JW book of bible stories, it's okay, we all did

No, even if the devil had nothing in him, how much more the pharisees, trust me, if they had other accusations, no matter how small, they'd bring it up, remember the jewish officials actually went as far as cajoling people to testify against him?

They found nothing on him o jare my brother.
Infact if that issue at the temple was such a fuss as you're making it seem now, the officials would have arrested him on the count that he posed a threat to human lives and infrastructure, in addition to that high handed claim, don't you think?

I think 2nd Corinthians pretty much defines love for me. Everything I might say is embedded in that chapter.

Wanna read?

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

Now if the bible claims that God is love and yet attributes those killings and genocide to him, isn't there an obvious contradiction?

Could it be that the jewish writers must have confused the cosmic rebel, satan as God left hand, his minister of wrath?


These are things I'm not so sure of, because I wasn't there.
That's why I rarely talk about them.

Don't confuse my silence for stewpidity and ignorance.

I chose a path and I'm happy on that path, what anyone thinks of me is their business. I owe no man zilch in that regard, it is my journey.
What I will not tolerate is being talked to in a denigrative manner because of my stand - that life and love is my religion.

And what are the rewards of love?

mzmycoli: There is only one problem with that pastor's claim: it is absolutely groundless. Jesus hurt NO human being in this event, for if He had, He could and would have been LAWFULLY arrested, something the Jewish authorities had desperately wanted to happen. Mark 11:18 confirms that the scribes and chief pharisees wanted to destroy Him in this passage, so His breaking of the law by assaulting several Temple Jews would have given them all the ammunition they needed. But, this Scripture at no point claims that Jesus harmed ANY human at ANY time in this story. Jesus "knocked over" some tables and verbally "cast out" a group of profiteering thieves who had no right to be in the Temple in the first place.

This is a re-interpretation of the relevant passage. Jesus acted on the emotion of anger (which Jesus himself claimed was the root of evils), and under the proper context, the destruction of property and the possible infliction of harm on the marketeers can be assumed. Jesus wouldn't have mildly knocked over a few tables and spoken softly to the marketeers to leave the Temple. The reasonable force required to clear a Temple of such size off a market of considerable size, must be assumed.

The Jewish authority eventually nailed Jesus with the charge that he was the son of God and King of Jews, they didn't need to go so far to pin him with that charge.

More importantly, what do you understand by Love? Do you think it is an instinct/emotion or a rational conclusion? Pls explainto us what you think love is AND the rewards of love.

AirborneLacer:
She's not a plain coward, she's brave.

For the fact that many people out there are shying away from such 'impossible task' goes to tell how much they've embraced conformity.

Upward' cannot exist unless there is a 'downward', they are opposites but they co-substantiate one another, their unity is that either one exists because the opposite is necessary for the existence of the other, one manifests immediately with the other.

Just like hot would not be hot without cold, due to there being no contrast by which to define it as 'hot' relative to any other condition, it would not and could not have identity whatsoever if not for its very opposite that makes the necessary prerequisite existence for the opposing condition to be.

So in essence, MizmyColi is trying to unite two opposites by using a simple formula - Grace and Love.

She's perfecting the works of a pre-Socratic Greek philosopher Heraclitus who suggested the Unity of Opposites idea.

If you can't think, allow mates who are doing so to keep traveling on that onward trajectory.

And please, don't you ever resort to insults next time - Just an advice

Have you ever heard of the term - contradiction?! If she claims to b a Christian, wouldn't be a contradiction for her to assume a position directly opposite to Christianity?!

Neither does she have any noble design or duty to unite two opposing systems, rather her contradiction is a consequence of her cowardice.

MizMyColi:
Kay17, I await your reply.
I need to know.

That's the only way I can give a befitting reply to that post where you called me a coward.

Please do when you can.

Thanks.

I just wanted you to see the irony of being labelled an atheistic Christian. I can not a Christian by the way.

MizMyColi:
Kay17
You've not answered my question, are you a Christian?

Wiegraf, "too true" really!?

Care to expatiate?

atheistic christian

MizMyColi:
Chi-zos!

Two things.

1. Are you a Christian?


2. Check out this music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVjRe8QXFHY




It's titled Best of Both worlds. Mix it all together and you'll know you got the best of both worlds

beautiful song.

Xcapist:
I said this once, I'll say it again. MizMyColi is like a bridge that connects the best of two worlds; Atheism and Theism. It's an unlikely and apparently contradictory role by she seem to be playing it well and with much grace. And you really can't go wrong with love and compassion, can you? One other person that I similarly appreciate for his worldview is Ymodolus. I subscribe to your statement of 'faith' bro.

If religious people could relinguish their hubristic need to always be absolutely right about everything based on some ancient millenia old text and focus more on being more loving, kind and compassionate then religion will not be a seed of discord among us. God bless you MizMyColi. God bless you Ymodolus. God bless all Secular Humanists everywhere. God bless all peace loving people, God bless us all. And God bless me May we all grow in Grace and Love and find Inner Peace as we live out our respective Truths.

I think MizMyColi is a plain coward trying to cling and get the best out of two opposing 'worlds'. What the hell is compassion and love?! It is people with filled stomachs that have much to say about the universality of love and compassion. Life itself is a struggle, an internal war either between right and wrong or hope and hopelessness; hatred is as necessary as love, because you can not love evil, one must hate it.

Bobbysworld28:
Rules would imply patterns, trends and behaviour. If u studied gravity, wouldn't u see these?
If Atheists do not believe that the world erupts from nothing, WHAT DO ATHEISTS BELIEVE?
The purpose of morality to me is for it to guide my actions since it defines my value code. It moral to love you inspite of our differences and this guides me.

Then you have to be careful with your language in order to avoid confusion. By rules, you clearly mean a pattern/behaviour/trends/orderly and not normative rules humans are regularly inundated with. It is easier to appreciate gravity in that sense.

Now, "what do atheists believe?" I can only speak for myself even though it is a common position I share with other people; the Truth is more elusive than is usually thought, it can not be taken for granted. I think Falsehood and Truth are necessarily incompatible. Once the Falsehood of a position is shown, it is impossible for it to be true. All supernatural claims are false because they are impossible to authenticate and ascertain. They have an epistemological dilemma, for this reason, they should be swept away. Now that there are no supernatural claims, we have a clean slate and an open mind to discover the world for what it truly is.

Good, you are obviously aware of your values and your morality suitably fits them, doesn't that suppose you can create your own morality if a universal morality does not fit your values?

Bobbysworld28:
Gravity is not mindless, sorry! There are rules.
My questions have always been this: if atheism is a lack of belief in God/god/gods, what does atheism believe in?
Since, atheists claim we came from nothing and end is the end of everything, how do u derive purpose in life?
What are the atheistic code of conduct in life?
If u believe in rational thought, how do u account for difference in views regarding what is rational? For instance, when we have differences in what we view as rational, how do we know the most appropriate?

is it accurate to say Gravity has rules, rather than a behaviour? Don't rules suggest obedience from individuals?

Atheism does not claim the world erupted from nothingness. It is merely denying the existence of Gods and the supernatural even though both are said to be responsible for existence.

My view is this: to make a sense of morality and rationality we must have a single entity which is transcendent and from which we derive meaning. In philosophy that fixed entity is regarded as an absolute!
If God is the absolute good and I derive morality from him, knowing that I am accountable to him, my actions are modified on a regular basis to conform with his personality expressed in and thru me. Even if I veer off and pursue selfish gains to the detriment of my fellows, it is good that we have a moral compass so that I can re-align.

What is the purpose of morality to you?

MizMyColi:
I've never thought in those lines, so you tell me.


Btw,
Religion is for people who are afraid of Hell
Spirituality is for those who have been there.

I'd favour Spirituality over Religion anytime.

If it makes you feel/sleep any better, you can label me whatever you choose.

G'nyt

You apparently despise the shallowness of organised religion and refuse to be associate with same, however you want identify with the label - Christian - and at the same time, bear no differences from spiritualist crowd (be it the unorthodox)?!

Of course to you, God necessarily exists as a Creator?

MizMyColi:
The only person/thing I accept unconditionally is My God and all that he represents.

ok, how are you different from spiritualists and occultists?

MizMyColi:


Please tell me exactly where I called the "credibility and authenticity" of the bible into question.

Look Sir, people of old didn't have a bible as we know it today.
Apostle John, while exiled in patmos didn't have one either.........
We only need one point of reference.
The spirirt of Christ in us, our only hope of glory. - Not the bible.

Without this spirit, a bible is useless, I mean a useless dead letter.
It is the spirit that gives it life.

Until Christians realize that they ought to search Jesus to find life in scriptures

AND

NOT, search Scriptures to find life in Jesus.........

Well, Sorry.



He didn't leave us with the bible while leaving this world........He left us his peace!

You see, the bible is good.
And I advise Everyone to grab a copy.

As for me, I need to stay away from it.
For over 20 years now, I was taught knowingly and unknowingly, to read it LITERALLY.
That caused me to almost self destruct.

I am going thru De-Tox.

Many Christians, Many, Many of them are in that shoe.
My Abba will open all our eyes.

Talking about spiritual christian occults
Hmmmm
New concept.

Please tell me more about them.



In other news sir, you might wanna stop being "christianfully" arrogant and give everyone grace.
Not all who wander is lost

I didn't say spiritual Christian occultists, rather I said spiritual occultists.

I'm not sure I got what you said clearly, do you accept the authenticity and credibility of the Bible unconditionally?

asalimpo:
Without God and accountability of man. Without justice in this life and hereafter, morality , becomes baseless and useless. If life is just a meaningless struggle for survival ,
nobody shud b punished for doing anythng to better his lot.

Atheism is a hopeless religion.

What is the purpose of football? but you enjoy it every time you play the sport, right? Does that make the sport hopeless?

Bobbysworld28:
If death is d end of existence, then what is the use of life? Merely an accident between two nothingness. Morality, then will be useless because there is nothing after this accident called life.
If however there is an afterlife or a deity who either rewards or punishes in d afterlife, the outlook is indeed not as gloomy and we can use him as a standard of measurement in morality

My exact problem with Christianity, it sees morality as a door into another world, rather than a means of self perfection.