₦airaland Forum

Let's keep it civil guys.

Whatever insults are thrown. Facts don't change and facts are stubborn.

Dedetwo:
Only a dumbass fool will expect that secession will explicitly stated in a nation's constitution. There are enough provisions already in the Nigeria constitution that support the actions of IPOB and MASSOB. The rant and noise of dingbats are quite irrelevant.

Read my very first post. You need it supported in the constitution before it is legal in the absence of a major war where Nigeria is totally out of control.

Some countries do include secession as stated some pages back.

Super1Star:
Their problem is that they are intellectually lazy.

UK can never back the breaking of Nigeria and you can rest assured other western powers will be less bothered, most especially US. Russia does not give a hoot, in as much as it can sell its own ammunition to all sides. China will stand aloof.

Maybe they are counting on Gabon, Tanzania and Cote'd Ivoire once more at the UN.

Imagine a UN security council meeting and the topic is Nigeria.

Nigeria, the latest bastion of western democracy in Africa has issues with a separatist group wanting to secede.
Obama: Do they have representatives in their legislative government?
UK: What's the population of the folks agitating in the various groups ipob, massob, etc versus the actual population of the regions involved
UN Secretary General : What does their constitution say?
China: We have contracts and loans with Nigeria. Don't want to Bleep it up.
Russia: Which of the groups can easily buy my weapons without us annoying the hell out of you folks?
France: Will it give Catalonians funny ideas?
Canada: what territory will the new country be based on? The one drawn in a radio station's studio?

UN Resolution: Even though the agitators don't have a political mandate or political representation in their host country nor does the host country's constitution support a secession. Let's break up and tread upon the sovereignity of Nigeria and watch it splinter further amongst other groups. We should use this as a precedence and template for future breakups. In fact, let's even apply the same right for Chechnya, Tibet, Southern USA, Alaska, Hawaii, Texas, Basque, Catalonia, Niger Delta, Oduduwa, Quebec etc

How really dumb is that?

Lolz

Super1Star:
Don't you get it. Which super power will support it, when each of them have secession cries in their backyard.

In USA, the southern states are crying to pull out of the union.

In China, Tibet is crying like a child that was abandoned by his mother.

In Russia, Chenchya is there.

In Spain, basque and Catalonia are in a constitutional log jam.

In Canada, the plebiscite and resolution of Quebec To break away from Canada was null and void.

In Britain, we just had Scotland referendum sailing through after 200years of agitation and what was the end result?

Secession of Eritrea, East Timor and South Sudan came with blood and water that was shed for years.

Kosovo is the only country that seceded with UN resolution, which was borne out of slobodan milosevic genocidal acts. Hence, the special status it is accorded.

Thank you. Hardly any country on earth without separatist movements and no extreme case of persecution against Biafrans exist in Nigeria so moot point for UN intervention. Extreme being the keyword.

Dedetwo:
What an inveterate ninny. No constitution explicitly guarantees secession. However the fundamental human rights charter guarantees the three basic rights to self determination as long as the people have territorial home land. They are:

Right to personal liberty
Right to peaceful assembly and association
Right to freedom of movement

Total baloney. Show me where that has been used as a case for self determination. You are conflating different rights though not mutually exclusive, but different categories under international law.

We should have precedence of this. Just give us examples.

Super1Star:
You are a sexy joker.

Tell the world what the section of the constitution saysand see your folly and illiteracy at play.

I already posted it and yet to get a response.

It's just more obvious this whole Biafran thing wasn't well thought out and it's no wonder the very educated are staying away from it. Just a few checks here and there identifies gapping holes in any strategy.

And we've not even talked about the steps to even get a referendum at play!

RADDY1:
YORUBA RONU.
Any one that wishes NK well shall get the same in return.
PLEASE can someone tell me what GEJ did to "radio changi" that APC and the whole north used to propagate evil in the north.

GEJ abdicating his duties as CIC and protector of our territorial integrity is not an excuse.

I always go back to that video. Well it was obvious the oil charade wouldn't last long. It's a commodity, prices go up and down till its no longer worth trading.

OfoIgbo:
The UN can do a great deal to Nigeria, if the country is not united. A faulty and fraudulent constitution has already created the disunity. The only way to be impervious to UN manilulations is the discarding of the 1999 constitution and the adoption of the People's constitution. That will ensure every section of Nigeria sees Nigeria as protecting their interest, hence worth fighting for.

As things stand, the UN can easily destroy Buhari or Nigeria because a huge section within Nigeria, feel marginalised. Igbos alone can easily defeat Nigeria, if Nigeria is not supported by the west, let alone in a situation where the UN gives them the legal backing and weapons procurement rights.

That is why the only way to go, is the adoption of a people's constitution, thus giving everyone a sense of belonging

1. Nigeria is not at war
2. Nigeria is a sovereign state with rule of law
3. Nigeria is one of UN's pet projects of successful democracies in Africa. There is no UN self interest to meddle in its affairs when it's the beacon of democracy in a backward continent
4. World affairs just don't work that way otherwise you will have precedence to cite

Let's keep the thread cerebral please and leave tribal destruction for another day....Thanks

Dedetwo:
Right to personal liberty.

Personal liberty isn't the same as secession. It can't be misconstrued.

Dedetwo:
Self-determination is not explicitly stated but section 35, 40 and 41 stated it in a nutshell.

Please show me self determination in the sections you confidently refered to below:

35. (1) Every person shall be entitled to his personal liberty and no person shall be deprived of such liberty save in the following cases and in accordance with a procedure permitted by law -
(a) in execution of the sentence or order of a court in respect of a criminal offence of which he has been found guilty;
(b) by reason of his failure to comply with the order of a court or in order to secure the fulfilment of any obligation imposed upon him by law;
(c) for the purpose of bringing him before a court in execution of the order of a court or upon reasonable suspicion of his having committed a criminal offence, or to such extent as may be reasonably necessary to prevent his committing a criminal offence;
(d) in the case of a person who has not attained the age of eighteen years for the purpose of his education or welfare;
(e) in the case of persons suffering from infectious or contagious disease, persons of unsound mind, persons addicted to drugs or alcohol or vagrants, for the purpose of their care or treatment or the protection of the community; or
(f) for the purpose of preventing the unlawful entry of any person into Nigeria or of effecting the expulsion, extradition or other lawful removal from Nigeria of any person or the taking of proceedings relating thereto:
Provided that a person who is charged with an offence and who has been detained in lawful custody awaiting trial shall not continue to be kept in such detention for a period longer than the maximum period of imprisonment prescribed for the offence.

(2) Any person who is arrested or detained shall have the right to remain silent or avoid answering any question until after consultation with a legal practitioner or any other person of his own choice.
(3) Any person who is arrested or detained shall be informed in writing within twenty-four hours (and in a language that he understands) of the facts and grounds for his arrest or detention.
(4) Any person who is arrested or detained in accordance with subsection (1) (c) of this section shall be brought before a court of law within a reasonable time, and if he is not tried within a period of -
(a) two months from the date of his arrest or detention in the case of a person who is in custody or is not entitled to bail; or
(b) three months from the date of his arrest or detention in the case of a person who has been released on bail, he shall (without prejudice to any further proceedings that may be brought against him) be released either unconditionally or upon such conditions as are reasonably necessary to ensure that he appears for trial at a later date.
(5) In subsection (4) of this section, the expression "a reasonable time" means -
(a) in the case of an arrest or detention in any place where there is a court of competent jurisdiction within a radius of forty kilometres, a period of one day; and
(b) in any other case, a period of two days or such longer period as in the circumstances may be considered by the court to be reasonable.
(6) Any person who is unlawfully arrested or detained shall be entitled to compensation and public apology from the appropriate authority or person; and in this subsection, "the appropriate authority or person" means an authority or person specified by law.
(7) Nothing in this section shall be construed -
(a) in relation to subsection (4) of this section, as applying in the case of a person arrested or detained upon reasonable suspicion of having committed a capital offence; and
(b) as invalidating any law by reason only that it authorises the detention for a period not exceeding three months of a member of the armed forces of the federation or a member of the Nigeria Police Force in execution of a sentence imposed by an officer of the armed forces of the Federation or of the Nigeria police force, in respect of an offence punishable by such detention of which he has been found guilty.


40. Every person shall be entitled to assemble freely and associate with other persons, and in particular he may form or belong to any political party, trade union or any other association for the protection of his interests:
Provided that the provisions of this section shall not derogate from the powers conferred by this Constitution on the Independent National Electoral Commission with respect to political parties to which that Commission does not accord recognition.
41.(1) Every citizen of Nigeria is entitled to move freely throughout Nigeria and to reside in any part thereof, and no citizen of Nigeria shall be expelled from Nigeria or refused entry thereby or exit therefrom.
(2) Nothing in subsection (1) of this section shall invalidate any law that is reasonably justifiable in a democratic society-
(a) imposing restrictions on the residence or movement of any person who has committed or is reasonably suspected to have committed a criminal offence in order to prevent him from leaving Nigeria; or
(b) providing for the removal of any person from Nigeria to any other country to:-
(i) be tried outside Nigeria for any criminal offence, or
(ii) undergo imprisonment outside Nigeria in execution of the sentence of a court of law in respect of a criminal offence of which he has been found guilty:
Provided that there is reciprocal agreement between Nigeria and such other country in relation to such matter.

HiddenShadow:
Sudan and Indonesia have sovereignty. Am I right.?


Why then did South Sudan and East Timor breakaway through a UN backed referendum.

Sudan went to war so total breakdown of law and order. Which we don't have in Nigeria.

East Timor was violently occupied by Indonesia on no legal basis.

War is the keyword here.

HiddenShadow:
China can oppose UN backed secession within her territory because of her military and economic power.

The price she will pay for such is internal revolts which will weaken her on the long run.

Start with ordinary wiki (they cited all their sources) and then take it to the library

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination

You will have an idea what UN stands for, it's limits and powers or lack off power. Take it from there. ..

baralatie:
This is chapter 4 of the constitution as It address fundamental human rights

"Chapter IV
Fundamental Rights

33.
Right to life.
34 Right to dignity of human persons.
35 Right to personal liberty.
36. Right to fair hearing.
37 Right to private and family life.
38 Right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion
39. Right to freedom of expression and the press.
40 Right to peaceful assembly and association. 41 Right to freedom of movement.
42 Right to freedom from discrimination.
43 Right to acquire and own immovable property.
44 Compulsory acquisition of property.
45 Restriction on and derogation from fundamental human rights.
46 Special jurisdiction


"

I don't see a right to self determination or secession anywhere in our Constitution. Zero.

HiddenShadow:
China can oppose UN backed secession within her territory because of her military and economic power.

The price she will pay for such is internal revolts which will weaken her on the long run.

That is really funny. There is something called sovereignty, which Nigeria and most countries enjoy. Not by brute force and power. Lolz

HiddenShadow:
The only nation that can oppose UN backed secession are nations that are united, militarily strong and economically useful to the world.

All these qualities Nigeria lacks.

UN has charters and rulings etc. Just post one that backs your claim. Kapish.

Dedetwo:
The right to Self-determination is supported by Sections 35, 40 and 41 of the Fundamental Human Rights Charter of the 1999 Constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria.

It is not enshrined in our Constitution. Prof Nwabueze, a constitutional, lawyer was fighting for its inclusion just last year.

HiddenShadow:
Since the Moderators are yet to act, I believe no NL law can be used against me

UN supercedes Nigeria

Once UN decides to have its way, Nigeria has no choice but to obey.

Failure to obey means forceful separation of which Nigeria has no military strength to stop a UN backed Secession.

Doesn't exist in any UN charter nor security council. Proof please.

We aren't breaking any NL rules.

Dedetwo:
Like I wrote in the previous post, it is very hard to see a country with such clause as guarantee for secession. However, 1999 Nigerian constitution has Fundamental Human Rights Charter. The section of the 1999 Nigerian constitution supports the regional and international rights to self determination.

If it's not too much to ask, csn you provide a quote? Going to search for it myself.

baralatie:
United Nations does not have powers to interfere or to dissolve its member nations!
But the real issues is how member nations can deliver good governance to its populace and make human lives a lot pleasant and most especially less and less wars!(irrespective of the style of government it chooses to use).

Human rights and better quality of life.

So with all these roadblocks what is the way out? More riots that won't move a needle?

I think the better fight for all is a fight for true federalism. The work is half done.

baralatie:
That is .Why the Tibet guy ran for his life when he screamed independence!

Exactly. Territorial integrity is no joke. UN favors territorial integrity before considering secession requests in the absence of major persecution of the minority groups. We don't have that level of persecution in Nigeria.

HiddenShadow:
Lalastical please close this thread.
All topics for or against Biafra should be deleted for peace to exist.

This is a cerebral thread with no insults involved. It will be civil from the beginning to the end.

ojeota:
Let the people of Nigeria decide then

People of Nigeria have to decide to change our Constitution to allow for secession. People that want Biafra now have to organize their representatives to push for a referendum.

Nothing is guaranteed.

Dedetwo:
I do not know if there is any constitution that explicitly guarantees act of secession.

China added it and once they got Tibet they removed it. Old USSR and Burma had and also removed it.

baralatie:
It was discussed at the last national conference!
There is no clause,so there is nothing to amend!
And the house that can discuss it is the Nass and itself cannot insert it!
And since referundum is not recognised by the constitution.Nothing is permitted.

No clause meaning, no legal backing so it can be contested in court and promptly dissolved. A constitutional amendment will involve more than NASS so groups that want Biafra have to play nice.

Same issue in USA and many countries. One of the reasons secession is extremely difficult without political alliances.

Dedetwo:
Are you sure that 1999 constitution did not guarantee the freedom of self-determination?

Nada. You can prove wrong though. I love to learn.

OfoIgbo:
I disagree with you.

Bear in mind that the 1999 constitution is a fraud, because at no point did Nigerians convoke a conference in which the constitution was put together
It was the military ruling class, who were mainly from the north, that concocted that constitution and even had the audacity to say WE THE PEOPLE....

What it means is that ICJ can make a ruling that invalidates the contents of Nigerian 1999 constitution based on the fact that is was not really adopted by all the peoples the constitution was meant to hold together. Legal agreements e.g a constitution must be adopted by all parties whose interest the constitution is meant to protect.

You can even argue that at no point did Nigerian agree to invalidate the 1979 constitution which Buhari and his fellow coupists destroyed. I'm sure the 1979 constitution has provisions for those that commit treason, which of course includes Buhari. This can even be roled back to the 1963 repiblican constitution e.t.c

Bottomline is that once UN gets involved, there is nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that the Nigerian government can do to stop self determination, if the se and much of ss opt to go that way

Legally 1999 constitution is binding. That is what Nigeria and any international body will recognize. They don't meddle with internal affairs unless there is a breakdown in society. UN or ICJ have zero jurisdiction over a sovereign state in the absence of a full blown war.

Let's even revisit 1979 constitution just for the hell of it. We don't have any allowance for secession so it's still the same legal conundrum.

baralatie:
There is no clause as such in the constitution!
That is why it is an offence to ask for secession of any kind!
You can only ask for state creation ,local government creation or local district authority

So we indeed need a constitutional amendment even with a referendum. Then Biafra is not feasible without generations worth of work. The people that are currently fighting for secession have burnt so many bridges that virtually no states would vote to amend the constitution to allow for secession.

Dedetwo:
Per the bolded, the IPOB is not unlawful society. The constitutional rights trump criminal code. The Nigerian constitution guaranteed the freedom of self-determination and for individuals to gather in order to sue for independence.

This is what Nigerian law considers as an unlawful society and you can see ipob can be considered as one with all their war talk:

Read without prejudice

Unlawful Societies


62. (1) A society includes any combination of ten or more persons whether the society be known by any name or not.

(2) A society is an unlawful society-

(i) if formed for any of the following purposes-

(a) levying war or encouraging or assisting any person to levy war on the Government or the inhabitants of any part of Nigeria; or

(b) killing or injuring or encouraging the killing or injuring of any person; or

(c) destroying or injuring or encouraging the destruction or injuring of any property; or

(d) subverting or promoting the subversion of the Government or of its officials; or

(e) committing or inciting to acts of violence or intimidation; or (f) interfering with, or resisting, or encouraging interference with or resistance to the administration of the law; or

(g) disturbing or encouraging the disturbance of peace and order in any part of Nigeria; or

(ii) if declared by an order of the President to be a society dangerous to the good government of Nigeria or of any part thereof.

62A. Without prejudice to the provisions of section 62, a society is an unlawful society if it is declared by an order of the National Council of Ministers to be a society dangerous to the good government of Nigeria Or of any part thereof, and for such purpose the consent of the Attorney-General of the Federation referred to in section 65 shall he construed as a reference to the consent of the Attorney-General of the State.

63. Any person who manages or assists in the management of an unlawful society is guilty of a felony and is liable to imprisonment for seven years.

64. Any person who-

(a) is a member of an unlawful society; or

(b) knowingly allows a meeting of an unlawful society, or of members of an unlawful society, to be held in any house, building, or place belonging to, or occupied by, him or over which he has control, is guilty of a felony and is liable to imprisonment for three years.

65. (1) A prosecution for an offence under the two last preceding sections shall not be instituted except with the consent of the Attorney-General of the Federation:

Provided that a person charged with such an offence may be arrested, or a warrant for his arrest may be issued and executed, and any such person may be remanded in custody or on bail, notwithstanding that the consent of the Attorney-General of the Federation to the institution of a prosecution for the offence has not been obtained, but no further or other proceedings shall be taken until that consent has been obtained.

(2) In any prosecution for an offence under the two last preceding sections it shall not be necessary to prove that the society consisted of ten or more members; but it shall he sufficient to prove the existence of a combination of persons, and the onus shall then rest with the accused to prove that the number of members of such combination did not amount to ten.

(3) Any person who attends a meeting of an unlawful society shall be presumed, until and unless the contrary is proved, to be a member of the society.

(4) Any person who has in his possession or custody or under his control any of the insignia, banners, arms, books, papers, documents, or other property belonging to an unlawful society, or wears any of the insignia or is marked with any mark of the society, shall be presumed, unless and until the contrary is proved, to be a member of the society.

66. Any peace officer, and any police officer authorised in writing by a peace officer, may enter with or without assistance any house or building or into any place in which he has reason to believe that a meeting of an unlawful society, or of persons who are members of an unlawful society, is being held, and to arrest or cause to be arrested all persons found therein and to search such house, building, or place, and seize or cause to be seized all insignia, banners, arms, books, papers, documents and other property which he may have reasonable cause to believe to belong to any unlawful society or to be in any way connected with the purpose of the meeting.

67. (1) When a society is declared to be an unlawful society by an order of the President, the following consequences shall ensue-

(a) the property of the society within Nigeria shall forthwith vest in an officer appointed by the President;

(b) the officer appointed by the President shall proceed to wind up the affairs of the society, and, after satisfying and providing for all debts and liabilities of the society and the costs of the winding up, if there shall then be any surplus assets, shall prepare and submit to the President a scheme for the application of such surplus assets;

(c) such scheme, when submitted for approval, may be amended by the President in such way as he shall think proper in the circumstances of the case;

(d) the approval of the President to such scheme shall be denoted by the endorsement thereon of a memorandum of such approval signed by the President, and, upon this being done, the surplus assets, the subject of the scheme, shall be held by such officer upon the terms and to the purposes thereby prescribed;

(e) for the purpose of the winding up, the officer appointed by the President shall have all the powers vested in a magistrate for the purpose of the discovering of the property of a debtor and the realisation thereof.

(2) The President may, for the purpose of enabling a society to wind up its own affairs, suspend the operation of this section for such period as to him shall seem expedient.

(3) The provisions of subsection (1) shall not apply to any property seized at any time under section 66.

68. Subject to the provisions of the last preceding section, the insignia, banners, arms, books, papers, documents and other property belonging to an unlawful society shall be forfeited to the State, and shall be dealt with in such manner as the President may direct.

No takers?

mzilakazi:
The problem is that Nigeria is still a young democracy that does not understand the freedom of speech. Come to South Africa and listen to Julius Malema's speeches where he publicly critisises and insult the president and white people. Zuma was insulted many a times by pictorial writing and satiric artists but it understood along the lines of freedom of speech even when the ANC never liked it. In Nigeria such can never be the case despite calling itself democracy.

Unfortunately, Nigerian laws are not South African laws. We have law makers in NASS to change our laws but all they do is change their wardrobes and try to suppress speech.

Kanu disregarded our laws and that got him arrested. There are professional radio rabble rousers in the USA like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity that employ full time staffs to monitor their speech, just to make sure they aren't breaking any laws.