₦airaland Forum

farem:
Flesh and blood have not revealed this to you but its straight from your father of lies...
The torment just started. The tax that you and organisations you represent have been paying, what can you show for it?
BTW, can you honestly come out and identify your organisation to compare notes?

You pay taxes too, don't you? I mean every individual who works in Nigeria should pay taxes at this point in time. So, the questions you ask are also for you.

Now, if your conclusion that the taxes paid by your person and non-tax exempt business are not being properly used, does that amount to a reason for why you would throw money at your pastors and their schemes in the name of tithe and offerings?

If you look in Deuteronomy 30, you will find something very interesting about the Old Covenant Law of Moses, which I doubt your man of God has ever really preached to you of, or cared to inform you of. If you consider the passage below, you will clearly see that the Old Covenant Law was intended by God Himself as an agreement binding upon only those who are descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob... it is quite specific too.

Deuteronomy 30 vs 15-20 (ERV)
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15. “Today I have given you a choice between life and death, success and disaster.
16. I command you today to love the Lord your God. I command you to follow him and to obey his commands, laws, and rules. Then you will live, and your nation will grow larger. And the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take for your own.
17. But if you turn away from your God and refuse to listen, if you are led away to worship and serve other gods,
18. you will be destroyed. I am warning you today, if you turn away from God, you will not live long in that land across the Jordan River that you are ready to enter and take for your own.

19. “Today I am giving you a choice of two ways. And I ask heaven and earth to be witnesses of your choice. You can choose life or death. The first choice will bring a blessing. The other choice will bring a curse. So choose life! Then you and your children will live.
20. You must love the Lord your God and obey him. Never leave him, because he is your life. And he will give you a long life in the land that he, the Lord, promised to give to your ancestors—Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”

Since it is an everlasting covenant that He made with the people of Israel, there is no evidence of God changing His mind about those whom the Covenant belongs to and who can or cannot be a part of it - it is forever fixed as an agreement between God and those of the blood of Jacob, of which you are most definitely not.

So, since the "tithes and offerings" laws, as instituted by God in the books of Leviticus and Numbers are meant for those who belong to the Old Covenant, .i.e. those born of the blood of Jacob, how do you pretend that what you do today in your churches is done for or on behalf of God?

Jesus Christ, the New Covenant Law to those who belong in the Kingdom of God, never commanded His followers to follow the tithes and offerings law of Old. He instead instructed they give to their neighbors instead, and to those who are least among them. Obviously, your church is not your neighbor and certainly not lesser than you are in any way or form, so, we cannot even attempt to suggest your giving has to do with what Jesus Christ commands of His followers.

lekki1444:
against your body ? yes. against the LORD ? no. however a man who destroys his temple will not be blessed abundantly by the LORD so you will just be one of these christians who are struggling in life. no breakthroughs. unanswered prayers etc. same applies to fornication and adultery and stealing etc

It is not a sin, even against your own body!

Matthew 15 vs 10-30 (ESV)
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10. Jesus called the people to him. He said, “Listen and understand what I am saying.
11. It is not what people put in their mouth that makes them wrong/defiles you. It is what comes out of their mouth that makes them wrong/defiles you.”
12. Then the followers came to Jesus and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees are upset about what you said?”
13. Jesus answered, “Every plant that my Father in heaven has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
14. Stay away from the Pharisees. They lead the people, but they are like blind men leading other blind men. And if a blind man leads another blind man, both of them will fall into a ditch.”
15. Peter said, “Explain to us what you said earlier to the people.”
16. Jesus said, “Do you still have trouble understanding?
17. Surely you know that all the food that enters the mouth goes into the stomach. Then it goes out of the body.
18. But the bad things people say with their mouth come from the way they think. And that’s what can make people wrong.
19. All these bad things begin in the mind: evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual sins, stealing, lying, and insulting people.
20. These are the things that make people wrong. Eating without washing their hands will never make people unacceptable to God.”

farem:
At least we how it's being wasted.
Come out and itemise what yours have been j'udiciously' used on.
No be fight

Do you have shares in this use of your "investment", I mean your tithes and offerings?
I mean this man's kingdom is being promoted in the name of God and the only guarantee he gives you that you will receive something is his word and nothing else, promoted in the name of God.
The problem with that is God never, in fact, commands the building of men's kingdoms or monuments of any kind in His name, and He, God, certainly makes no promises to men on behalf of other men.

mysticwarrior:
which religious scriptural reference do you want me to quote? Christianity Hindu, islamic, Buddhist, Zoroastrianist, Shintoist, atheists, Armoc, Eckanker, or traditional African religious? pls tell me which one of them??

Check with the OP for reference as to what is valid in this case.

Goldbw122:
yeah exactly, is none of anyone business that is why there is corruption..

You are putting this demand on churches, which are simply business centers that promote the name of God for their good.

soundOsonic:
That's enough, you are not here to reason. Your post is already bias. You have killed the actual purpose of the thread. No need to reply this message. Have a wonderful night.

Killed the purpose of the thread by stating the facts as they currently present themsleves?

Hatrik:
So i attended today miracle Monday Bible Studies when Pastor W.F Kumuyi teached about submission and so many other doctrines.Here is His take on submission
Taking His text from 1Cor. 11:1-3 The head of Christ is God, the head of man is Christ, the head of the woman is the man(husband). 1Cor. 11:3
Drawing examples from the centurion if you are familiar with the bible you know the centurion is a command of an army who have authorities over him and hold authority over group of soldiers who submit to him.
However, He(centurion) recognize the authority of Christ.
Submission is not slavery. The child have to accept to submit to his parent/ and teacher.
At work you submit to your boss, not as a slave but as a subordinate.
Submission covers all areas in life and when there is submission there is fruitfulness. 1Cor. 11:9
Hope this help address the issue of equality and submission or what is your take?

Address what issue of equality and submission? The above is rubbish where the teachings of Jesus Christ are concerned.

Submission of the kind taught by Jesus Christ is instead that of a servant to His Master. Yes, in the Kingdom of God, you are called to Submit to the one who is Head over you implying that you become a servant to the one who is your Master.

Matthew 23 vs 10-12 (ERV)
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10. And you should not be called ‘Master.’ You have only one Master, the Messiah.
11. Whoever serves you like a servant is the greatest among you.
12. People who think they are better than others will be made humble. But people who humble themselves will be made great.

There is only one Head/Master over all those who are followers of Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ is it. Any other head is an idol pretending to occupy the seat that belongs to God, and we all know that Idolatry is sin. What this means is that a man who supposes himself head over a woman seeks to install himself as god over her, and that very idea is antichrist in origin.

Any man who supposed himself head over a woman in the way that Jesus Christ is Head/Master over His church is thoroughly deceived and sins against God by pretending he is god over her.

Now, if a woman is to submit to her husband, then that woman cannot be a follower of Jesus Christ, why? Because Christ said you cannot serve two masters.

Matthew 6 vs 24 (ERV)
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24. “You cannot serve two masters at the same time. You will hate one and love the other, or you will be loyal to one and not care about the other. You cannot serve God and Money[d] at the same time.

Either the woman submits to her husband or she submits to Jesus Christ -- she cannot submit to both. Same for the man... a man cannot submit to his wife and Jesus Christ at the same time. It is impossible to do so in the Kingdom of God. So all those who belong to the Kingdom of God have a decision to make as to who they choose to submit to.

So what does this all mean? It means the assertion made in 1 Corinthians 11 is wrong and contradicts the Word of God.

mysticwarrior:
keep looking for scriptural references as if you don't know every scripture is written by human with flesh and blood like you.

So, because scripture is written by humans, you then feel justified in making outlandish claims with no scriptural roots to them?

Goldbw122:
All churches, like invest in an I.T industry and create futuristic tech that well help to develop Africa country. That will make NIGERIA COUNTRY TO BE A BETTER PLACE TO LIVE IN.

Wait... you expect your churches to invest in futuristic technology that will help to develop African countries?
I am sorry what?

soundOsonic:
Any church collecting money for counselling is not a church but business center.
Only the learned pastor will go for this training and the this will filter off those pastors that are not learned.
Counselling session is different from deliverance or prophecy section. Counsellors/therapist don't instruct people on what to do or what not to do. They just make people identify their problem/weakness and same people will figure out how to solve this themselves. They are allowed to give advice and suggestions.
So it is not a time of sowing seeds. 70% of churches doing counselling don't extort money from people. Neither do they judge people.

News flash! Your churches are nothing but "glorified" business centers. Glorified in the sense that those who run them use the name of God as a tool to lure in gullible butts to fill seats in their pews and extort at every possible avenue through doctrines and traditions which really have nothing to do with God Himself.

So, enabling them with a degree in psychology only serves to embolden them in further exploiting the already vulnerable in more ways than they already do. What next? Are you going to suggest they all become doctors too so all those who already frequent their lair of deceit then basically throw it all in the hands of their pastors and imams too?

Goldbw122:
This is one in a multi billion building, but an ideal should arise that will help the youth to develop ideal for the future so that we will be asking the world development that is going on today, am not saying the multi billionaire project is bad, no is not, but we should think about tomorrow, for the greatest good of the future..

How will it help the youths develop the ideal for the future?

farem:
”Our leaders all over the world met recently. They came over here and they went around this complex. They went everywhere, and then they came back to have a meeting together. And they said all of us, we want to raise this Deeper Life Conference Center to an international standard. And we are planning. We are planning for hundreds of thousands even more than those who are here and that everyone will have at least a three-star hotel accommodation. And you will not be on the side of the road, or there or there.
You have not seen anything at the DLCC here. And they said we have a DLCC or we are going to have a DLCC of God's own vision and we make that our own vision and it becomes something international. There is one prayer I’m praying for you. Are you ready?
I said there is one prayer I am praying for you. Are you ready? You will not die before that time [Amen].
Your eyes have seen the beginning of DLCC, you will remain alive [Amen].
Every sickness, every disease, every infirmity that will knock at your door before this DLCC is completed I command come out in Jesus name. You have seen DLCC when it was, you know just like this. You will see something. Something international. Accommodation- all those tents there, they call it white house, they call it green house, they call it a beautiful house we will push them aside. And within a short time you are going to see something international. We’ll have accommodation for our ministers, accommodation for our workers, accommodation for our newcomers, accommodation for our guests, accommodation for international people, and it's going to be a great thing in Jesus name [Amen].
[color=#000000]But now, where will the money come from? Are we going to go to the cement industry and say Deeper Life is building DLCC donate cement, donate iron, donate this and donate that? Where will the money come from? The money will come from you. Where are you? I say where are you? If you don't have any job now because of this DLCC, I proclaim in your life, job come in Jesus name[/color] [Amen].
For the sake of the Lord and for the sake of this edifice we want to build, a new level of prosperity will come your life [Amen].
A new level of inheritance will come your life [Amen].
All the people that are owing you here and there for the benefit of proclaiming the gospel here internationally, all those people will pay you in Jesus name [Amen].
Where your prosperity is hiding, the Lord will open the door, he will supply all our needs in Jesus name. We are not talking of looking for millions, we are talking of billions. But that billion will come [Amen].
I said it will come [Amen].
In our districts, in our groups, our leaders will be talking to us and you will even beyond what you have now, you are going to give, in Jesus name. The Lord will prosper you [Amen].
I see that we even have to extend now our car pack over here because those who have been walking and walking on their bare feet you will stay before your steering and you will drive into this camp [Amen]
and our newcomers you are not left out of this. You have become part of us now, the Lord will enrich you and the Lord will bless you and everyone we are going to be part of this in Jesus name [Amen].
Why don’t you just raise your voice to the Lord on this particular issue, I'll be part of this, I'll be part of this, I'll be part of this, I'll be part of this, I'll give, not just thousands, I will give millions, millions, millions . I will give cheerfully, I will give wholeheartedly, I will give, I will give, you will give and the Lord will prosper you. And then not only are you are going to see a Deeper Life Christian Centre of international standard on this end, God will give you mansions in Heaven” he concluded.

It is evident that God is indeed simply just a tool in the hands of these Mogs to the realization of their kingdom here on earth.

soundOsonic:
The sessions will be free of course like every church counselling. The pastor can't extort money from them since it is a counselling/therapy session.
We can't know for sure if it won't work if we do not try.

Pastors/Imams already extort money as-is from church goers. Some churches charge a fee for their counseling sessions as is.. what makes you think that by further training them to use professional skills in their manipulation, things would become better for those who seek them out for counseling?

EndNigeriaNoww:
mysticwarrior,I don't have time for people with low IQ that lacks comprehension.

Why not prove, by way of your rebuttals and responses, that you are not yourself of those with low IQ lacking in comprehension skills?

mysticwarrior:
what God has ordained cannot be stopped because his words are final, it can only be delayed by supernatural forces but there is a limit to which those forces could delay it.

What supernatural forces?
What scriptural reference can you provide for this claim?

EndNigeriaNoww:
smart, intelligent and correct. God has a destiny for everybody but if u are not careful, u can lose urs. Every destiny is elastic (Prone to change) except God has said it's a must.

So, from the fragment in bold, you concur with the Op that God's Will cannot be changed?

soundOsonic:
I was reading a post on Nairaland, in which a guy asked if counselling was a good course. Someone said most people would rather run to pastors and Alfas for counselling than meet a psychologist.

What he said is 100% true. But does being a pastor/Alfa automatically qualifies you to be a counselor? A strange question indeed for a religious folk.

Let us first know the job of a clerics. A pastor/Alfa is trained to handle spiritual matters and counsel. Let us say if you are having spiritual problem based on your faith, it is natural to meet a spiritually matured individual for counsel. But the question again is, do all our problems have a spiritual origin? The answer is No. Again do all problems have a spiritual solution? The answer is still No.
If you do not agree with the last two questions it is advisable you stop reading from here.

When clerics don't have the right words or enough therapy to give an individual, they just use their trump card of "let us pray" as therapy for an individual. Quite professional isn't it?

Most problem like depression, marriage/ relationship instability, addiction, mental imbalance, PTSD, social anxiety, phobias, personality disoder, psychotic disorder, believe it or not your religious cleric is not qualified to help you deal with this.

20%-30% of Nigerians are suffering from mental disorder
According to https://www.anmjournal.com/article.asp?issn=0331-3131;year=2016;volume=10;issue=2;spage=47;epage=48;aulast=Suleiman

According to wiki a A psychologist is a person who studies normal and abnormal mental states, perceptual, cognitive, emotional, and social processes and behavior by experimenting with, and observing, interpreting, and recording how individuals relate to one another and to their environments
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychologist

why then do we entrust our mental health with people who have no training whatsoever to solve your mental challenges?

Man Know Thyself

The reason why most people in Nigeria will not visit a therapist is because

1. Trust issues. They feel talking to a stranger about their life challenges isn't right. Revealing deep things about oneself is degrading.

2. Most Nigerians cannot afford weekly visit to therapist.

3. Most Nigerians believe most of all their problem as some spiritual origin and solution.

4. They can't just accept the fact they have a mental health issue and need help.

5. Methods used for therapy might be against their religious faith.

Since most people feel comfortable around their clerics, people find it easy to pour out their feelings, even the deep things to their clerics; why can't the church or government capture this advantage and find away to make it compulsory for clerics to have a degree in psychology?
This will go a long way to treat Nigerians and fight mental illnesses in the Country. People are really loosing it in this country daily, depression is on the high side, so also suicide.
If clerics are professionals, believe me, it will not only be free therapy for Nigerians, but also easy access for mental assessment.
So my people what do you think?

The idea sounds good in theory but I have to say it is not for the good of all. So, no, because then they would become professional thieves and even worse manipulators.

MessiahMARLIANS:
Nice Observation and Great Alignment. You are Utmost Right. THE CHURCH in Deeper Sense is A FARM - where Righteous SEEDS should be Sown, Cultivated, Well Nutured and Harvested for A PURPOSE.What is This PURPOSE ?

He is right?
So, your churches in this world, which are filled mostly with sinners and thieves, are farms where the righteous seeds are nurtured for a purpose? Where do you get this idea from?

MessiahMARLIANS:
Without Knowing "THE ESSENCE" of "Anything", Then - That "Anything" will Always Be "Nothing".
Without Knowing "THE ESSENCE" of whatever You do, You would Never Do Well At it.Let's make this more clearer now:
"Without Knowing THE ESSENCE OF THE CHURCH; The CHURCH-GOers will Never ACHIEVE The ROOT PURPOSES of What THE CHURCH Symbolizes.

Why were churches established? What root purpose do the churches have or serve? What do they symbolize?

MessiahMARLIANS:
For The Meaning of "ESSENCE" is " SIGNIFICANT REASON". This should be the Question every SIGNIFICANT and REASONABLE Young Adult should Always Ask Themselves. What is The SIGNIFICANT REASON for Establishing "CHURCHES" ?
And Another Significantly Reasonable Question you should ask yourself is:"What is The ESSENCE of My going To Church ?"For;Without Knowing Your ESSENCE of Going To CHURCH, You Go in VAIN.

So, what is or should be the essence of attending church?

MessiahMARLIANS:
Well, many people do not know The ESSENCE of "THE CHURCH" to LIFE. They Go To CHURCHES without knowing The Reason Why THE CHURCHES are Established. And because of This; Some other people Utilize The Avenues of becoming PASTORS to MANIPULATE CHURCH-GOers who Know Nothing About THE SIGNIFICANT PURPOSE of What CHURCHES Should Help Achieve in The Society.
If You do not know THE ESSENCE of THE CHURCH in The Society; Then You are trapped in An UGLY MATRIX.

What were churches meant to achieve in society?

MessiahMARLIANS:
What is The ESSENCE of You Going To CHURCH? Why Should You Go To CHURCH ? Why Do You Go To CHURCH ? What Is Your REASON for Going To CHURCH Dedicatedly? Why Should You Go To CHURCH ?All these Five Questions can ULTIMATELY be Answered by Knowing The TRUE ANSWER To The Question:"What is THE ESSENCE of The CHURCH ? "

What is the essence of the church?

Nicenancy:
Can men or devils abort God's will or plans?

Of course not!
I mean men and devils would first need to know what God's will and plan is in order to attempt an abortion of His Will and plans, would they not? And no man knows the mind of God.

Nicenancy:
For instance, Can God bless a man to become president and devils or men or the man himself abort/change this plan?

But would God bless a man with that which is against Him, God?

Matthew 20 vs 25-28 (ESV)
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25. So Jesus called the followers together. He said, “You know that the rulers of the non-Jewish people love to show their power over the people. And their important leaders love to use all their authority over the people.
26. But it should not be that way with you. Whoever wants to be your leader must be your servant.
27. Whoever wants to be first must serve the rest of you like a slave.
28. Do as I did: The Son of Man did not come for people to serve him. He came to serve others and to give his life to save many people.”

detectivejones:
I have read so many conflicting stories about Heaven and hell from people who allegedly died and came back to life. I must say these stories makes one question some things you've been taught to believe.

So let's talk how real is heaven and hell in your opinion

According to Jesus Christ, Heaven and Hell will not be open for admission of souls until after He, Jesus Christ, returns in the end. There are of course other ideas of Heaven and Hell out there that are not of Jesus Christ. So, if you want to learn about Jesus Christ's own Heaven and Hell, then you are best paying attention to His teachings on the subject.

FatherCHRISTMAS:
I am tired of everything. There has to be another way.
It can't just continue to be like this. There has to be another way. Everything is just too frustrating
The more I try to get out of one the deeper I fall in more. The more I struggle to escape, the more I become choked and trapped. I am frustrated and it's obvious things aren't getting better any time soon

What is this other way?

livingchrist:
If your wives have children for you, you don't need to send them away empty handed.
I believe your first wife is your legal wife, keep her but you can also take care of your other wives and children.

Where does God declare this in scripture?

REDH2:
Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Whatsoever it is that will prevent your name from being in that book, the book of life, cut them off and cast them off from you. You are not here on earth to please any man but GOD, let them call you names. Be rather called names and make it to Heaven than to be accepted of all men and end up in an unquenchable fire which will last for eternity. Whatsoever, again whatsoever Beloved that will not make you end up in Heaven, do away with it.

If you have friends that will always prompt you to sin when you are with them, Beloved, flee from them. Be it social media, any association, career or anything whatsoever that will make your name not to be in the book of life, do away with it. It is better to be wretched in this life, to be unknown, persecuted and make it to Heaven than to be very wealthy, well-known and celebrated and end up in the the lake of fire.

Let men call you old-school, extremist and so on. Be old-school and make Heaven. You know that part that will offend (prevent) you from being in book of life, cut them off and don't hold on to it but immediately cast it off from you.

No sacrifice is too great to give that your name might be written in the book of life. Pay the sacrifice and walk with GOD in Holiness, consecration and purity and you shall inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

It is wrong to advise people to flee their friends since Jesus Christ came, not for the righteous but for the very sinners you flee.

Matthew 9 vs 27-30 (ESV)
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12. Jesus heard them say this. So he said to them, “It is the sick people who need a doctor, not those who are healthy.
13. You need to go and learn what this Scripture means: ‘I don’t want animal sacrifices; I want you to show kindness to people.’[a] I did not come to invite good people. I came to invite sinners.”

We are not called to be apart from the world.. we are after all in the world and are called to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God to those in the same world. Rather than run away from your friends, rise to the standard set by Jesus Christ for you and let your friends see Christ in you.

AllenSpencer:
Its all going to be Alphabetically.
For those of us who have our names starting with A, their is no way we wont find our names in the book of life. I dont know how big the book is, but personally believe it should accommodate names starting from A-L minimum.
For those whose names happen to be the last letters of the alphabets, Its a pity.. All going to hell.

Alphabetical?
Jesus Christ said, "The first shall be the last and the last shall be the first ....", so what part of that screams "ALPHABETICAL" to you?

Mizessy:
Lol. Using ur example. It's just like you saying... You don't drink poison... But you'll give money to ur friend to buy poison for himself... Wow... What a great way of showing love....

I used the example of a friend asking me for money to purchase marijuana so that we would not fall into the zone you have picked on there. But since you want to explore this, that's fine by me.

You may not know this but one of the commands given by Jesus Christ to all of His followers stipulates that if a neighbor asks you for anything you have, you are not to deny the request, but give.

Matthew 5 vs 42 (ERV)
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42. Give to anyone who asks you for something. Don’t refuse to give to anyone who wants to borrow from you.

I found a similar reference to the command in the book of Proverbs as well.

Proverbs 3 vs 27-28(ERV)
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27. Do everything you possibly can for those who need help.
28. If your neighbor needs something you have, don’t say, “Come back tomorrow.” Give it to him immediately.

In response to your claim that showing love would be to reject the request, the Truth of God, Jesus Christ, declares instead that you are wrong. Even in the case, the request is for poison, you are commanded, by God Himself, to give it to the one asking.

Never assume that your opinion and your understanding amounts to God's law or understanding.

WizPrince1:
Why Do People Swear with Bible when The Bible says we Shouldn't Swear?

The reason is that many who believe are ignorant of the Truth of the one who they believe in.

Matthew 5 vs 33-37 (ERV)
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33. “You have heard that it was said to our people long ago, ‘When you make a vow, you must not break your promise. Keep the vows that you make to the Lord.’[g]
34. But I tell you, when you make a promise, don’t try to make it stronger with a vow. Don’t make a vow using the name of heaven, because heaven is God’s throne.
35. Don’t make a vow using the name of the earth, because the earth belongs to him.[h] Don’t make a vow using the name of Jerusalem, because it also belongs to him, the great King.
36. And don’t even say that your own head is proof that you will keep your promise. You cannot make one hair on your head white or black.
37. Say only ‘yes’ if you mean ‘yes,’ and say only ‘no’ if you mean ‘no.’ If you say more than that, it is from the Evil One.

samydo:
My dear a word is enough for the wise, I hope u are not waiting for God to come and give descriptive description of what is food and what is not if yes I guess u should start going about eating every green leaf u see while you wait for his description

Again.... I am afraid you are late on this one. Jesus Christ already told you from about 2000 years ago that it is not what you eat that makes you unclean/sinful in the sight of God, but it is instead the wickedness you have stored up in your heart that does. In translation, you are free to eat/ingest anything you find for food.

The same Jesus Christ also tells you that you will drink poison and it will not harm you.

obonujoker:
G.Os and pastors are shepherds taking care of God's sheep...

So what you are saying is that these men are shepherds taking care of God's sheep, meaning God lied....

Ezekiel 34 vs 9-16 (ERV)
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9. So, you shepherds, listen to the word of the Lord!
10. The Lord God says, “I am against the shepherds. I will demand my sheep from them. I will fire them. They will not be my shepherds anymore. Then the shepherds will not be able to feed themselves, and I will save my flock from their mouths. Then my sheep will not be food for them.”
11. [color=#990099] The Lord God says, “I myself will be their Shepherd. I will search for my sheep and take care of them. [/color]
12. If a shepherd is with his sheep when they begin to wander away, he will go searching for them. In the same way I will search for my sheep. I will save them and bring them back from all the places where they were scattered on that dark and cloudy day.
13. I will bring them back from those nations. I will gather them from those countries and bring them back to their own land. I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams, and in all the places where people live.
14. I will lead them to grassy fields. They will go to the place high on the mountains of Israel and lie down on good ground and eat the grass. They will eat in rich grassland on the mountains of Israel.
15. [color=#990099] Yes, I will feed my flock, and I will lead them to a place of rest.” This is what the Lord God said.[/color]

16. “I will search for the lost sheep. I will bring back the sheep that were scattered and put bandages on the sheep that were hurt. I will make the weak sheep strong, but I will destroy the fat and powerful shepherds. I will feed them the punishment they deserve.”

... and so did Jesus Christ after Him, when He declared that He alone is the good shepherd?

John 10 vs 7-20 (ERV)
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7. So Jesus said again, “I assure you, I am the gate for the sheep.
8. All those who came before me were thieves and robbers. The sheep did not listen to them.
9. I am the gate. Whoever enters through me will be saved. They will be able to come in and go out. They will find everything they need.
10. A thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy. But I came to give life—life that is full and good.
11. “I am the good shepherd, and the good shepherd gives his life for the sheep.
12. The worker who is paid to keep the sheep is different from the shepherd. The paid worker does not own the sheep. So when he sees a wolf coming, he runs away and leaves the sheep alone. Then the wolf attacks the sheep and scatters them.
13. The man runs away because he is only a paid worker. He does not really care for the sheep.

14-15. “I am the shepherd who cares for the sheep. I know my sheep just as the Father knows me. And my sheep know me just as I know the Father. I give my life for these sheep.
16. I have other sheep too. They are not in this flock here. I must lead them also. They will listen to my voice. In the future, there will be one flock and one shepherd.
17. The Father loves me because I give my life. I give my life so that I can get it back again.
18. No one takes my life away from me. I give my own life freely. I have the right to give my life, and I have the right to get it back again. This is what the Father told me.”
19. Again the Jews were divided over what Jesus was saying.
20. Many of them said, “A demon has come into him and made him crazy. Why listen to him?”

Was Jesus Christ wrong in the passage above?

obonujoker:
Remember what Jesus told Peter before his ascension

According to John 21, Jesus Christ called on Peter to feed and care His sheep, not become a shepherd OVER his flock, and this he told peter, right after feeding him and the other disciples breakfast.

John 21 vs 1-14 (ERV)
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15. When they finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these other men love me?” Peter answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Then Jesus said to him, “Take care of my lambs.[c]”
16. Again Jesus said to him, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Then Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”
17. A third time Jesus said, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was sad because Jesus asked him three times, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know everything. You know that I love you!” Jesus said to him, “Take care of my sheep.
18. The truth is, when you were young, you tied your own belt and went where you wanted. But when you are old, you will put out your hands, and someone else will tie your belt. They will lead you where you don’t want to go.”
19. (Jesus said this to show how Peter would die to give glory to God.) Then he said to Peter, “Follow me!”

advanceDNA:
U don’t know how to dialogue...I ddnt say Christ lied... u are the one fallaciously assuming that.

This is not rocket science really!
Assuming a Mr A declares "It is Black" and Mr B declares instead "It is White", if you declare that Mr B told the truth, what you are invariably saying at the same time is that Mr A lied.

advanceDNA:
Jesus spoke from a context... people like u that don’t read with the context meaning will just keep saying what is not...

The context is the Kingdom of God. Here we have Jesus Christ, the Truth of God, declaring that He alone is Teacher and Shepherd over those who belong to His flock .i.e. all those who are of the Kingdom of God.

Matthew 23 vs 8-12
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8. But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.[c]
9. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
10. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ.
11. The greatest among you shall be your servant.
12. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Anyone who declares that Jesus Christ did not mean what He said or suggests that Jesus Christ's statement should not be taken as the absolute Word of God proclaims that Jesus Christ is a liar.

advanceDNA:
Is it not th same bible that spoke about some being apostles, teachers, pastors, etc.. was Paul also lying?? Can’t they all be brothers, why are some apostles, and some pastors and some evangelist..??

Jesus Christ, as we see clearly in the above passage, declared that He alone is Teacher/Shepherd over His flock. Since Paul declares something contrary to what Jesus Christ said, whose word do you choose to believe - Jesus Christ's or Paul's - since they are both not saying the same thing in any way or form.

advanceDNA:
When Jesus said turn ur cheek when they slap you does it mean actually turn ur cheek..

Well, let us see what Jesus Christ meant. The below passage is what Jesus Christ said...

Matthew 5 vs 38-48 (ERV)
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38. “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’[i]
39. But I tell you, don’t fight back against someone who wants to do harm to you. If they hit you on the right cheek, let them hit the other cheek too.
40. If anyone wants to sue you in court and take your shirt, let them have your coat too.
41. If a soldier forces you to walk with him one mile,[j] go with him two.
42. Give to anyone who asks you for something. Don’t refuse to give to anyone who wants to borrow from you.
43. “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[k] and hate your enemy.’
44. But I tell you, love your enemies. Pray for those who treat you badly.
45. If you do this, you will be children who are truly like your Father in heaven. He lets the sun rise for all people, whether they are good or bad. He sends rain to those who do right and to those who do wrong.
46. If you love only those who love you, why should you get a reward for that? Even the tax collectors do that.
47. And if you are nice only to your friends, you are no better than anyone else. Even the people who don’t know God are nice to their friends.
48. What I am saying is that you must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Now, we already know that when confronted by His enemy, Jesus Christ did not put up a fight but was instead lead off and was killed by them. But let's examine what another one of Jesus Christ's followers, Stephen, did in response to Jesus Christ's commandment.

Acts 7 vs 54-60 (ERV)
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54. Now when they heard these things they were enraged, and they ground their teeth at him.
55. But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
56. And he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
57. But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together[b] at him.
58. Then they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul.
59. And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
60. And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

As you can see, Stephen literally did what Jesus Christ commanded there in Matthew 5 vs 38-48. He, refusing to fight back, showed love to his enemies by loving them even more than he loved His own life.
So, you tell me, are you better than Stephen in this?

advanceDNA:
When Jesus said the kingdom of God sufferer violence...and th violent take it by force... does he literally mean we should be violent..??

I am afraid you misconstrue the message in that verse there. Why don't we consider it in the context it was given to you.

Matthew 11 vs 2-12 (ERV)
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2. When John was in prison, he heard about the things that were happening—things the Messiah would do. So he sent some of his followers to Jesus.
3. They asked him, “Are you the one we have been expecting, or should we wait for someone else?”
4. Jesus answered, “Go tell John what you have heard and seen:
5. The blind can see. The crippled can walk. People with leprosy are healed. The deaf can hear. The dead are brought back to life. And the Good News is being told to the poor.
6. Great blessings belong to those who don’t have a problem accepting me.”
7. When John’s followers left, Jesus began talking to the people about John. He said, “What did you people go out to the desert to see? Someone who is weak, like a stem of grass[a] blowing in the wind?
8. Really, what did you expect to see? Someone dressed in fine clothes? Of course not. People who wear fine clothes are all in kings’ palaces.
9. So what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, John is a prophet. But I tell you, he is more than that.
10. This Scripture was written about him: ‘Listen! I will send my messenger ahead of you. He will prepare the way for you.’
11. “The truth is that John the Baptizer is greater than anyone who has ever come into this world. But even the least important person in God’s kingdom is greater than John.
12. Since the time John the Baptizer came until now, God’s kingdom has been going forward strongly.[b] And people have been trying to take control of it by force.

From the above, you can see that Jesus Christ did not tell you to take the Kingdom of God by force.... no, instead, He warns you that there are those who are trying to take control over the kingdom of God by force.

advanceDNA:
Is it not th same bible that spoke about some being apostles, teachers, pastors, etc.. was Paul also lying??

Yes, Paul lied! Paul, by declaring that which Jesus Christ said, what God Himself stated will be so in His New Covenant, to be untrue amounts to Paul not speaking on behalf of God in this. And since Jesus Christ is the Truth of God, it means Paul lied.

advanceDNA:
Can’t they all be brothers, why are some apostles, and some pastors and some evangelist..??

According to Jesus Christ, He alone is Teacher and Shepherd over all those in His flock, so there are no pastors(shepherds) and no Teachers in his flock. Instead, Jesus Christ's command to teach His Gospel of the Kingdom of God is to every one of His followers meaning they are all His apostles/evangelists/disciples.

advanceDNA:
Having titles isn’t wrong... Jesus only wanted humility... always remeber.. that Jesus response also included the fact that he knew the thoughts of men... and that’s why you would see in some place that he insulted the scribes becos their intentions for asking questions was to kill him..

Jesus Christ warned vehemently against the having of these "titles" which you claim... that is why He warned that none of His followers be called "Rabbi", "Master", "Father", Shepherd(Pastor), "Teacher" etc... He instead declared that they were all equal in His Kingdom.

advanceDNA:
The man calling Jesus teacher was trying to ass-lick... and Jesus won’t allow it...
There was another place where somebody called him good... he responded by saying he’s not good that only God the father is good... was Jesus not good?? His response was out of context.. maybe we should understand context

There is no problem with calling Jesus Christ Teacher/Master/Rabbi/Shepherd, etc. after all, in His Kingdom, He is the one and only over all of us.

Akuruoulo:
GOD SAID WE SHOULDN'T TAKE LIFE THAT WE DIDN'T CREATE, AND SMOKING IS ONE WAY OF TAKING ONES LIFE PREMATURELY

Did you know that food also kills? Yes, if you unknowingly give peanuts to someone with food allergies, the person might die from it. But guess what? God did not make the giving of peanuts sin, so what gives?
ROFLMAO!

africandollar:
I really question your Christian foundation with all the points you wrote out here, I would therefore recommend that you support your statements with quoted verses from the Bible (the roadmap for every Christian) so we can at least be singing from the same hymn book, no point being lazy when it comes to correctly dividing the word of Truth.

The 'suggestion' that the prodigals have a better understanding of God's unconditional grace is clearly stated in the Bible in a verse which I previously quoted, 'Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little' Luke 7:47. Also consider the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32) Did the (legalistic) son who had always obeyed his Father find it easy to agree with the Father's graceful actions towards the prodigal son?

"Unconditional" grace?

Luke 7 vs 36-50 (ERV)
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36. One of the Pharisees asked Jesus to eat with him. Jesus went into the Pharisee’s house and took a place at the table.
37. There was a sinful woman in that town. She knew that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee’s house. So the woman brought some expensive perfume in an alabaster jar.
38. She stood at Jesus’ feet, crying. Then she began to wash his feet with her tears. She dried his feet with her hair. She kissed his feet many times and rubbed them with the perfume.
39. When the Pharisee who asked Jesus to come to his house saw this, he thought to himself, “If this man were a prophet,[b] he would know that the woman who is touching him is a sinner!”
40. In response, Jesus said to the Pharisee, “Simon, I have something to say to you.”
Simon said, “Let me hear it, Teacher.”
41. Jesus said, “There were two men. Both men owed money to the same banker. One man owed him 500 silver coins. The other man owed him 50 silver coins.
42. The men had no money, so they could not pay their debt. But the banker told the men that they did not have to pay him. Which one of those two men will love him more?”
43. Simon answered, “I think it would be the one who owed him the most money.”
Jesus said to him, “You are right.”
44. Then he turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? When I came into your house, you gave me no water for my feet. But she washed my feet with her tears and dried my feet with her hair.
45. You did not greet me with a kiss, but she has been kissing my feet since I came in.
46. You did not honor me with oil for my head, but she rubbed my feet with her sweet-smelling oil.
47. I tell you that her many sins are forgiven. This is clear because she showed great love. People who are forgiven only a little will love only a little.”
48. Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
49. The people sitting at the table began to think to themselves, “Who does this man think he is? How can he forgive sins?”
[b]50. Jesus said to the woman, “Because you believed, you are saved from your sins. Go in peace.”

Here's a question for you.... why did the woman wash Jesus's feet with her tears, dry it with her own hair, kiss and rub it with perfume?

The Passage below is the story of the parable son. Pay attention to what the prodigal son said in verses 18 -20.

[b] Luke 15 vs 11-24 (ERV)
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11. Then Jesus said, “There was a man who had two sons.
12. The younger son said to his father, ‘Give me now the part of your property that I am supposed to receive someday.’ So the father divided his wealth between his two sons.
13. “A few days later the younger son gathered up all that he had and left. He traveled far away to another country, and there he wasted his money living like a fool.
14. After he spent everything he had, there was a terrible famine throughout the country. He was hungry and needed money.
15. So he went and got a job with one of the people who lived there. The man sent him into the fields to feed pigs.
16. He was so hungry that he wanted to eat the food the pigs were eating. But no one gave him anything.
17. “The son realized that he had been very foolish. He thought, ‘All my father’s hired workers have plenty of food. But here I am, almost dead because I have nothing to eat.
18. I will leave and go to my father. I will say to him: Father, I have sinned against God and have done wrong to you.
19. I am no longer worthy to be called your son. But let me be like one of your hired workers.’
20. So he left and went to his father.
The Younger Son Returns
“While the son was still a long way off, his father saw him coming and felt sorry for him. So he ran to him and hugged and kissed him. [/b]
21. The son said, ‘Father, I have sinned against God and have done wrong to you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22. “But the father said to his servants, ‘Hurry! Bring the best clothes and put them on him. Also, put a ring on his finger and good sandals on his feet.
23. And bring our best calf and kill it so that we can celebrate with plenty to eat.
24. My son was dead, but now he is alive again! He was lost, but now he is found!’ So they began to have a party.

Why did the son feel the need to repent, a requirement for anyone who wants to follow Jesus Christ?
Did you know that Jesus Christ commands repentance/a turning away from sin from those who will belong to Him?
Why did even the prodigal obey this command in the above passage told by Jesus Christ?

africandollar:
Also kindly show me where it is written in the Scriptures that we are saved by Jesus's resurrection rather than his crucifixion, you can't separate His crucifixion from his resurrection, it's just like saying you have yam available for you to eat because you harvested yam without considering that you first planted the seed. If anything, the resurrection is proof that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was acceptable.

Recall that Jesus Christ Himself confessed that He was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel .i.e. the sinners among His people?

Matthew 15 vs 21-28 (ERV)
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21. Jesus went from there to the area of Tyre and Sidon.
22. A Canaanite woman from that area came out and began shouting, “Lord, Son of David, please help me! My daughter has a demon inside her, and she is suffering very much.”
23. But Jesus did not answer her. So the followers came to him and said, “Tell her to go away. She keeps crying out and will not leave us alone.”
24. Jesus answered, “God sent me only to the lost people[d] of Israel.”
25. Then the woman came over to Jesus and bowed before him. She said, “Lord, help me!”
26. He answered her with this saying: “It is not right to take the children’s bread and give it to the dogs.”
27. The woman said, “Yes, Lord, but even the dogs eat the pieces of food that fall from their master’s table.”
28. Then Jesus answered, “Woman, you have great faith! You will get what you asked for.” And right then the woman’s daughter was healed.

Now ask yourself how then is it that those of the gentile nations now have a claim in the promise that is Jesus Christ?
This topic is best left for another thread if you are really interested.

africandollar:
Yes, sinning is a choice so no need to get strung up on terms here. If we all had the ability to always say no to sin then there would have been no need for a Saviour, as long as you are in a fallen body you would always struggle with sin except you want to insist that you have power over sin in all forms by yourself including lust.

You do not have to worry about All but simply you as an individual! The contract that is Jesus Christ is a personal one, and the same Jesus Christ revealed to us how we can each become free from the clutches of sin...

John 8 vs 31-36
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31. So Jesus said to the Jews who believed in him, “If you continue to accept and obey my teaching, you are really my followers.
32. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
33. They answered, “We are Abraham’s descendants. And we have never been slaves. So why do you say that we will be free?”
34. Jesus said, “The truth is, everyone who sins is a slave—a slave to sin.
35. A slave does not stay with a family forever. But a son belongs to the family forever.
36. So if the Son makes you free, you are really free.

During the time of Jesus Christ, 2000 years ago, there existed righteous men and women in the land, - examples from within the gospels include Zechariah and his wife Elizabeth(Luke 1), Joseph(father of Jesus Christ), Simeon(Luke 2), Joseph of Arimathea(Luke 23) - who had attained holiness/perfection under the Old Covenant Law, and were living righteous lives, so please, there is no such thing as a "fallen body". Instead, there is the will of man and the choice to obey or disobey God's Law.

africandollar:
Really?! So you are saying that King David is also a son of the devil?

How so?
Was David a slave to his sins? Did David submit that his "fallen body" was to blame for his sin against God?

africandollar:
For all the other points you stated I would appreciate you being 'Berean' enough to search for the passages in the Scriptures to support your points but just to give you a snippet at how helpless we are at satisfying God's Laws, the ten commandments are not God's complete Laws...actually God gave the Israelites about 613 laws all stated in the Books of Moses, first try those on for size before thinking you can call yourself righteous before God.

You and I are not Israelites and so were never bound to God's Old Covenant Law of Moses to those who are of the Blood of Jacob. As you can see from the passage below, it is impossible for a gentile to be bound in any way to the Old Covenant Law, God made sure of it.

Deuteronomy 30 vs 15-20 (ERV)
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15. “Today I have given you a choice between life and death, success and disaster.
16. I command you today to love the Lord your God. I command you to follow him and to obey his commands, laws, and rules. Then you will live, and your nation will grow larger. And the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take for your own.
17. But if you turn away from your God and refuse to listen, if you are led away to worship and serve other gods,
18. you will be destroyed. I am warning you today, if you turn away from God, you will not live long in that land across the Jordan River that you are ready to enter and take for your own.

19. “Today I am giving you a choice of two ways. And I ask heaven and earth to be witnesses of your choice. You can choose life or death. The first choice will bring a blessing. The other choice will bring a curse. So choose life! Then you and your children will live.
20. You must love the Lord your God and obey him. Never leave him, because he is your life. And he will give you long life in the land that he, the Lord, promised to give to your ancestors—Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”

So, any gentile following either just 10 out of the 613 statutes or All of the laws does so in vain. Why? Because God will never change His mind on what He proclaimed through His servant Moses as far as who the Covenant belongs to.

Now, as I pointed out earlier, there were in fact many in the land of Canaan who was able to satisfy the requirements of the Old Covenant with all its 613 statutes. Yes, the Old Covenant Law is not impossible to keep. During the time of Elijah, God mentioned that there were 1000 other servants of His in the land to take his, Elijah's, place, and these just prophets. Jesus Christ also revealed that there were those already living righteously in the land, in the passage below.

Matthew 9 vs 27-30 (ESV)
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12. Jesus heard them say this. So he said to them, “It is the sick people who need a doctor, not those who are healthy.
13. You need to go and learn what this Scripture means: ‘I don’t want animal sacrifices; I want you to show kindness to people.’[a] I did not come to invite good people. I came to invite sinners.”

So it is indeed possible to live according to the Old Covenant Law of Moses, and we have numerous examples of those who did example that, in the bible.

That aside, we as gentiles, are called, not according to the Old Covenant Law of Moses, but instead according to the New Covenant Law, Jesus Christ, of the Kingdom of God, not of the land of Canaan. Jesus Christ is the New Covenant Law promised by God through His prophets through which He blesses those of all nations, and this Law comes with it a light yoke and an easy burden. The yoke consists of only about 50 commandments which we are expected to trust and obey, and according to Jesus Christ, only those who do so will He and His Father live inside of.

John 14 vs 15-21 (ESV)
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15. “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
16. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper,[f] to be with you forever,
17. even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be[g] in you.
18. “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
19. Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
20. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
21. Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”