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Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 10:32pm On Apr 25, 2022 |
OkCornel:Verses 40-41 of Matthew 24 refer to events during the great tribulation which is after the rapture remember? |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 10:28pm On Apr 25, 2022 |
OkCornel: After. Just like Jesus said. Remember, Noah/Lot (righteous men), removed from the way (rapture), wrath/judgements (tribulation) before Jesus comes (2nd coming). |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 10:26pm On Apr 25, 2022 |
OkCornel:This question is like saying was is the past tense of is can you confirm? I just showed you how this line of argument upon which your whole line of argument rests on is shaky. You are basically saying Paul could not be referring to the church because he used a pronoun that is 3rd person that is not referring to the writer or the people he is addressing. I showed you how that line of argument does not hold. Then I went further to ask you for other verses that confirm God as the restrainer. You are yet to do that. I have shown 2 verses showing the church is the restrainer and I have more verses. Can any Bible truth be determined in isolation? |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 10:22pm On Apr 25, 2022 |
OkCornel: Do you know what double reference is when it comes to prophecies? I am actually surprised that I need to write everything out. Yes, Jesus was referring to a church in Philadelphia but that church in Philadelphia also represents a period in the church age or a generation within the church age. Come on now. Was that church supposed to endure a literal 'hour' of tribulation especially when that tribulation was for the whole world? Jesus clearly shows that a generation in the church will be kept from the tribulation that will engulf the whole world. How else will that church be kept from an event except that they won't participate in it? Don't forget Revelation 13:7-8 works against you fully because if the holy people then is the church they will not only participate but be overcome by the antichrist. Next, your interpretation of a little segment of Isaiah 26:19-20 is funny don't you think? Especially when the word 'your' or 'thy' was only inserted by the translators to help with meaning. You can check the Hebrew for this. The verse could very well read, come my people enter into chambers ...hide as it were for a little while until the indignation (God's wrath) be overpast. This should show you prophetically that some people will be removed from the scene during the wrath that will come upon the world. Isaiah says it was for a little time because those same people are going to come back with Jesus. Easy. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:56pm On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel: I just did the same thing in my analogy above to prove that the interpretation you gave is neither here nor there. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:54pm On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel:Okay I see the issue. I have to spell things out. Jesus in Luke 21v36 said some people will escape everything that was coming. Escape how? Jesus said his coming will be like the time and story of Noah. Was Noah not safe before the flood showed up? Was he not removed from the danger? What about Lot? The angels even told Lot they could not act until he was taken out of the way. Is that clear? |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:50pm On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel:I have shown many and I have so much more to show but you are not answering any of my questions. Who did Jesus give his authority to? Was Jesus's authority half authority or all authority? Did Jesus give his body half or all the authority he received? Let me add more pre tribulation verses to the ones I have already shown you. Revelation 3v10 Isaiah 26:20 Can you provide one of the verses I have asked you for? Truth should not be that hard to find. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:40pm On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel: How does that define the term RESTRAIN? How can you say something is being restrained because you have not given it power? To WITHOLD; RESTRAIN means that thing is already gearing to go but you are holding it back from acting. See how you want to change the literal meaning of words to accommodate your position? |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:37pm On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel: This is what you wrote: 3rd Person Singular means; A grammatical category of pronouns and verbs used when referring to objects or individuals other than the speaker or his or her addressee(s) So if I say "the body of christ" is a mystic organism I can decide to change the body of christ to "she" and I can still very much be writing to the church of which I am a member of. This is straw clutching at its mid level. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:31pm On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel: So shows us where God is restraining the antichrist. That is all I ask. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:28pm On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel:Did you skip verse 7 to come with this? For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work only he who restrains (it) will do so until he is taken out of the way. The restrainer is clearly restraining the works of evil and the person of evil from being fully manifest. Try again. Verse 6 shows both the beast and verse 7 shows his full works are being restrained. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:23pm On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel: That Paul was not referring to himself as the "he" or was that supposed to be ground breaking? Paul is not the he. The he is the body of christ. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:21pm On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel: So this is a topic switch because you won't answer clear questions? Okay, to answer your question. Jesus spoke about the deep mysteries of the church in codes because the disciples at the time had a lot to figure out. Paul called the rapture a mystery (mysterion) which means not many people prior to him knew about it explicitly. Nevertheless see the codes Jesus gave his disciples. Luke 21:36 Matthew 24: 37-39 Luke 17:28-30 |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:15pm On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel: Come on these strawman arguments are not helping you at all. Midst = works of lawlessness in the world You skipped that to say I was referring to the church? |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:14pm On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel: You mean the same way the Bible refers to God as "us" and in some contexts "he" as well? This is basic Bible study that the context will determine the pronoun. The KJV translators just used he to denote the pronoun of the body of christ that will share the same pronoun that Jesus bears. I don't know why showing a Bible verse where God is restraining evil in the church age is hard to provide. I have done so 2 times now. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:09pm On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel:I don't think I have ever disagreed that God will cede authority to the devil who will cede authority to his antichrist. Maybe you have forgotten but I said so earlier. I also did mention that the rapture of the church is the beginning of the wrath of God. Now, God ceded authority to the kingdoms of the world to his son who in turn ceded his authority to his body to act in his stead. Therefore, the restraining force of evil in the world is the body of christ. When God's judgment is about to commence, he will remove the restrainer from the world so that the devil will no longer be restrained from doing what he wants to do. Do you understand now? |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:04pm On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel: Is this your admission that God is not in the midst of anything? Good. There is only one group that will leave in the midst of the works of lawlessness in the world- the church - the body of christ. Easy. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:02pm On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel: God will leave the midst of the believers? In what part of verses 6 and 7 were believers mentioned? Haha |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:01pm On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel: How did I become literal with the pronoun regarding the church and then switch up for the restrainer when I have maintained that the restrainer is the body of christ in which Jesus is the head. Hahaha |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:00pm On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel: The transliteration we were dealing with said to leave the midst of...you cannot then choose to interpret it as handing over authority when you tried to define the word in its literal sense of moving out of the way by himself. Don't forget to connect to witholding. Withold has a literal meaning. I am waiting. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 10:57pm On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel: Okay, maybe this will help. The restrainer will go out of whose midst? |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 10:56pm On Apr 24, 2022 |
I have more verses. Matthew 5 v 13 shows who is preserving the world. If God is leaving the scene, he is leaving it to go where? You can't choose when to be literal within a sentence and then be figurative within that same sentence. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 10:48pm On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel: I told you earlier that this interpretation is weak and off tangent. Paul did also say "we" yet he is clearly not part of the "we" that will partake of the actions still being described in the same context. Who is God in the midst of and show another verse like I have done where God is restraining evil in the world. It is not hard to buttress Bible arguments with scripture right? I tender Luke 10:19. Let us examine yours. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 10:40pm On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel: Let me show you easily why this is patently false logic. Because the context says that a "he" is witholding the antichrist from being revealed. Verse 7 now says that witholder has to be removed. Think of it, if God is living the midst by the transliteration you are so fixated on, ask yourself who God is in the midst of? You did not quite factor that right? |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 10:33pm On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel: I wonder why you keep confusing yourself intentionally. Are you seeking truth or just trying to defend your own position? Nobody told you that the day of the lord involves the sun going dark etc. Those happen during the tribulation particularly in the GREAT tribulation phase. The day of the lord starts at the end of the tribulation. Why is that so hard to comprehend? |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 10:31pm On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel:Relax the word of God is easy to understand. Care to explain away the word "withold" from the verse before it so you would understand it better? Can there be a withholding by one individual? |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 1:30am On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel: Revelation 6 v 12 is not the day of wrath. That "day" of wrath is the whole judgement of God the father. So Revelation 6 from verse 1 is already the beginning of the wrath. In actual fact the beginning starts with the rapture of the church. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 1:28am On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel: I said the day of wrath is the father's wrath. Part of his wrath is allowing of the antichrist to reign; tribulation etc. This is NOT the same with the day of christ or the lord. The day of wrath happens before the day of the Lord like Joel 2 v 31 says. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 1:24am On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel: This is quite unsophisticated. Do you see a V-ASM-3S in the morphology column of the parallel Greek? It means: verb, active, singular masculine 3rd person and superlative. Virtually screaming that it is not passive and the action is carried out on the subject. That is why KJV says till he is taking out of the way. The translators knew what the language implied. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 1:17am On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel: He that withholds will do so till he be TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 1:16am On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel: Verse 7 of 2 Thess 2? |
Religion / Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 1:15am On Apr 24, 2022 |
OkCornel: What twice do you keep talking about when you are yet to prove you know what I am actually saying. Verse 29 to 31 are not in one passage of time. Luke 21:25-26 prove it. Even studying Revelation 6 you should know that each seal was released in a different passage of time that has to be years in reality. Lol Did Joel 2 v 31 not say this was before the day of the Lord? |
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