OkCornel:
@Maestro21

In Matthew 24 v 36-41 and Luke 17 v 26-30;

Who are the ones to be taken? And who are the ones that would be left behind?

Verses 40-41 of Matthew 24 refer to events during the great tribulation which is after the rapture remember?

OkCornel:


Is the coming of the Son of Man before the great tribulation? or after the great tribulation?

After. Just like Jesus said.

Remember, Noah/Lot (righteous men), removed from the way (rapture), wrath/judgements (tribulation) before Jesus comes (2nd coming).

OkCornel:


Have you confirmed the morphology V-ASM-3S to mean Verb - Aorist Subjunctive Middle - 3rd Person Singular?

Yes or No. Then we take it up from there

This question is like saying was is the past tense of is can you confirm?

I just showed you how this line of argument upon which your whole line of argument rests on is shaky.

You are basically saying Paul could not be referring to the church because he used a pronoun that is 3rd person that is not referring to the writer or the people he is addressing. I showed you how that line of argument does not hold.

Then I went further to ask you for other verses that confirm God as the restrainer. You are yet to do that. I have shown 2 verses showing the church is the restrainer and I have more verses.

Can any Bible truth be determined in isolation?

OkCornel:


Revelation 3 v 10; was addressed to the faithful believers of the church in Philadelphia... not the entire body of Christ. And also, Jesus didn't say He was going to keep them in Heaven from the great tribulation.

Revelation 3 v 10;
10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 26 v 20;
Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.

Okay, how does people hiding in their rooms have any connection with the church disappearing from earth before the great tribulation?

Do you know what double reference is when it comes to prophecies? I am actually surprised that I need to write everything out.

Yes, Jesus was referring to a church in Philadelphia but that church in Philadelphia also represents a period in the church age or a generation within the church age. Come on now. Was that church supposed to endure a literal 'hour' of tribulation especially when that tribulation was for the whole world?

Jesus clearly shows that a generation in the church will be kept from the tribulation that will engulf the whole world. How else will that church be kept from an event except that they won't participate in it? Don't forget Revelation 13:7-8 works against you fully because if the holy people then is the church they will not only participate but be overcome by the antichrist.

Next, your interpretation of a little segment of Isaiah 26:19-20 is funny don't you think? Especially when the word 'your' or 'thy' was only inserted by the translators to help with meaning. You can check the Hebrew for this.

The verse could very well read, come my people enter into chambers ...hide as it were for a little while until the indignation (God's wrath) be overpast.

This should show you prophetically that some people will be removed from the scene during the wrath that will come upon the world. Isaiah says it was for a little time because those same people are going to come back with Jesus. Easy.

OkCornel:


I have asked you a simple question, have you confirmed the accuracy of the morphology used on the restrainer?

"Verb - Aorist Subjunctive Middle - 3rd Person Singular"

I just did the same thing in my analogy above to prove that the interpretation you gave is neither here nor there.

OkCornel:


For Luke 21 v 36, read from verse 34 to get the context. It refers to the wrath that comes with the day of the Lord, not the great tribulation.

Luke 21 v 34-36;
34 “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap.
35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth.
36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

Matthew 24 v 36-39 - Also talks about the day of the Lord, not the church escaping the great tribulation;

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Luke 17 v 28 -30;
28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building.
29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

@Maestro21, all the bible verses you provided only shows the righteous ones who would be preserved at the coming of the Son of Man, and not the church taken away from the earth to escape the great tribulation.

Kindly provide bible verses where Jesus would come for the church prior to the great tribulation.

Okay I see the issue. I have to spell things out.

Jesus in Luke 21v36 said some people will escape everything that was coming. Escape how?

Jesus said his coming will be like the time and story of Noah. Was Noah not safe before the flood showed up? Was he not removed from the danger?

What about Lot? The angels even told Lot they could not act until he was taken out of the way.

Is that clear?

OkCornel:


Please show us where Paul explicitly mentioned the church is the restrainer, that is all I ask.
A clear cut verse where Paul or Jesus mentions great tribulation will befall the world after the church is taken out of the world.
Just show verses where Jesus, Paul or any of the Apostles mentioned this.

I have shown many and I have so much more to show but you are not answering any of my questions.

Who did Jesus give his authority to? Was Jesus's authority half authority or all authority? Did Jesus give his body half or all the authority he received?

Let me add more pre tribulation verses to the ones I have already shown you.

Revelation 3v10
Isaiah 26:20

Can you provide one of the verses I have asked you for? Truth should not be that hard to find.

OkCornel:


Smh, we are still on verse 7. Again, the beast is powerless as God is yet to grant authority to it to rule over the nations...so therefore, God is the restrainer

How does that define the term RESTRAIN? How can you say something is being restrained because you have not given it power?

To WITHOLD; RESTRAIN means that thing is already gearing to go but you are holding it back from acting. See how you want to change the literal meaning of words to accommodate your position?

OkCornel:

Obviously, Paul wasn't referring to himself as he, so no need to divert

My question is simple, have you confirmed the accuracy of the morphology used on the restrainer as "Verb - Aorist Subjunctive Middle - 3rd Person Singular"?

This is what you wrote:

3rd Person Singular means;
A grammatical category of pronouns and verbs used when referring to objects or individuals other than the speaker or his or her addressee(s)

So if I say "the body of christ" is a mystic organism I can decide to change the body of christ to "she" and I can still very much be writing to the church of which I am a member of. This is straw clutching at its mid level.

OkCornel:


At the bolded, don't shift the goalpost, what God is restraining is beast as authority has not been handed over to it yet. Don't conflate that to mean "evil in the church age"

So shows us where God is restraining the antichrist. That is all I ask.

OkCornel:


At the bolded, don't shift the goalpost, what God is restraining is beast as authority has not been handed over to it yet. Don't conflate that to mean "evil in the church age"

Did you skip verse 7 to come with this?

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work only he who restrains (it) will do so until he is taken out of the way.

The restrainer is clearly restraining the works of evil and the person of evil from being fully manifest. Try again.

Verse 6 shows both the beast and verse 7 shows his full works are being restrained.

OkCornel:


@Maestro21, have you confirmed the accuracy of the V-ASM-3S morphology as "Verb - Aorist Subjunctive Middle - 3rd Person Singular?"

That Paul was not referring to himself as the "he" or was that supposed to be ground breaking? Paul is not the he. The he is the body of christ.

OkCornel:


Can you show us where Jesus promised all faithful believers he would come for them before the great tribulation?
Any references from the synoptic gospels

So this is a topic switch because you won't answer clear questions?

Okay, to answer your question. Jesus spoke about the deep mysteries of the church in codes because the disciples at the time had a lot to figure out. Paul called the rapture a mystery (mysterion) which means not many people prior to him knew about it explicitly.

Nevertheless see the codes Jesus gave his disciples.

Luke 21:36 Matthew 24: 37-39 Luke 17:28-30

OkCornel:


Lmao, so going by your understanding in the verse above;

HE = Church
Midst = Also means the church.

Chai, na wa ooo

Come on these strawman arguments are not helping you at all.

Midst = works of lawlessness in the world

You skipped that to say I was referring to the church?

OkCornel:


Have you forgotten when you mentioned the "we" Paul used in 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1 refers to the church? but the "he" used in identifying the restrainer...you suddenly remember Paul was using "prophetic language" to mean "he" also refers to the church?

Please where in your study of English Language is a singular pronoun such as "he" used to identify a collective group of people? Bros?

You mean the same way the Bible refers to God as "us" and in some contexts "he" as well? This is basic Bible study that the context will determine the pronoun. The KJV translators just used he to denote the pronoun of the body of christ that will share the same pronoun that Jesus bears.

I don't know why showing a Bible verse where God is restraining evil in the church age is hard to provide. I have done so 2 times now.

OkCornel:


You still don't get it?
The beast is still restrained because God has not handed authority over to it to rule the world. How difficult is this to comprehend?

I don't think I have ever disagreed that God will cede authority to the devil who will cede authority to his antichrist. Maybe you have forgotten but I said so earlier. I also did mention that the rapture of the church is the beginning of the wrath of God.

Now, God ceded authority to the kingdoms of the world to his son who in turn ceded his authority to his body to act in his stead. Therefore, the restraining force of evil in the world is the body of christ.

When God's judgment is about to commence, he will remove the restrainer from the world so that the devil will no longer be restrained from doing what he wants to do.

Do you understand now?

OkCornel:
@maestro21

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm

2 Thessalonians 2 v 7;
The for mystery already is working of lawlessness only [there is] the [one] restraining [it] at present until out of [the] midst he might be [gone]

Oya please tell us...who is the "midst" in the context of the verse above?

Is this your admission that God is not in the midst of anything? Good.

There is only one group that will leave in the midst of the works of lawlessness in the world- the church - the body of christ. Easy.

OkCornel:


of the believers

God will leave the midst of the believers? In what part of verses 6 and 7 were believers mentioned? Haha

OkCornel:


Oh really?

Please remind me who was literal with 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4 with the pronoun used to identify the church...but suddenly went figurative with the pronoun used to identify the restrainer

How did I become literal with the pronoun regarding the church and then switch up for the restrainer when I have maintained that the restrainer is the body of christ in which Jesus is the head. Hahaha

OkCornel:


Simply put, God is the restrainer, because He is the one who will eventually hand authority over to the beast as you earlier mentioned.
Till then, the beast can't do nothing

The transliteration we were dealing with said to leave the midst of...you cannot then choose to interpret it as handing over authority when you tried to define the word in its literal sense of moving out of the way by himself.

Don't forget to connect to witholding. Withold has a literal meaning. I am waiting.

OkCornel:


Again, I've asked you...from the direct interpretation from Greek to English, where does it show the restrainer is removed by another entity?

Read it again;

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm
2 Thessalonians 2 v 7;
The for mystery already is working of lawlessness only [there is] the [one] restraining [it] at present until out of [the] midst he might be [gone]

Simply put, the above verse states the one who restrains will continue to do so, until out of your midst, he is gone.
Remember the V-ASM-3S morphology? the restrainer acts of its own accord, not according to the will of another person.

But if you dispute with the morphology, please prove otherwise

Okay, maybe this will help. The restrainer will go out of whose midst?

I have more verses.

Matthew 5 v 13 shows who is preserving the world.

If God is leaving the scene, he is leaving it to go where? You can't choose when to be literal within a sentence and then be figurative within that same sentence.

OkCornel:


Infact, more evidence from the morphology to prove to you that the restrainer is not the church

If you put your cursor over the V-ASM-3S morphology, this is what it means;

Verb - Aorist Subjunctive Middle - 3rd Person Singular.

3rd Person Singular means;
A grammatical category of pronouns and verbs used when referring to objects or individuals other than the speaker or his or her addressee(s)

Going by the above definition, the restrainer Paul was talking about has nothing to do with the church (i.e. the people Paul was addressing his letter to)

I told you earlier that this interpretation is weak and off tangent. Paul did also say "we" yet he is clearly not part of the "we" that will partake of the actions still being described in the same context.

Who is God in the midst of and show another verse like I have done where God is restraining evil in the world. It is not hard to buttress Bible arguments with scripture right? I tender Luke 10:19. Let us examine yours.

OkCornel:


Per the bolded, you've got your understanding of passive and active mixed up. Check the dictionary and confirm what active means.

Active means the action is carried out by the subject. Passive means, the action is being carried out on the subject. This is basic grammar nau...

Active: denoting a voice of verbs in which the subject is typically the person or thing performing the action and which can take a direct object
Passive: denoting a voice of verbs in which the subject undergoes the action of the verb

Source: Oxford Dictionary


In summary V-ASM-3S shows it's an active action i.e. the restrainer acts of its own accord.

Let me show you easily why this is patently false logic. Because the context says that a "he" is witholding the antichrist from being revealed. Verse 7 now says that witholder has to be removed.

Think of it, if God is living the midst by the transliteration you are so fixated on, ask yourself who God is in the midst of? You did not quite factor that right?

OkCornel:


So on the day of wrath, the sun goes dark...the moon turns to blood, and the stars fall from heaven. But this day is different from;
The day of the Lord where the sun also goes dark...the moon turns to blood and the stars also fall from heaven?

I wonder why you keep confusing yourself intentionally. Are you seeking truth or just trying to defend your own position?

Nobody told you that the day of the lord involves the sun going dark etc. Those happen during the tribulation particularly in the GREAT tribulation phase. The day of the lord starts at the end of the tribulation. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

OkCornel:


UNTIL OUT OF THE MIDST, HE MIGHT BE GONE...is an action carried out on the subject...rather than by the subject?

Haba!!!

Relax the word of God is easy to understand. Care to explain away the word "withold" from the verse before it so you would understand it better? Can there be a withholding by one individual?

OkCornel:


You mentioned the day of wrath: Revelation 6 v 12-17 is not the day of the Lord.

I am pointing your attention to the common themes (Sun going dark, moon turning to blood, stars falling from the sky) in Revelation 6 v 12-17, Matthew 24 v 29-31. They are the same event, the day of the Lord.

Revelation 6 v 12 is not the day of wrath. That "day" of wrath is the whole judgement of God the father. So Revelation 6 from verse 1 is already the beginning of the wrath. In actual fact the beginning starts with the rapture of the church.

OkCornel:


You mentioned the day of wrath: Revelation 6 v 12-17 is not the day of the Lord.

I am pointing your attention to the common themes (Sun going dark, moon turning to blood, stars falling from the sky) in Revelation 6 v 12-17, Matthew 24 v 29-31. They are the same event, the day of the Lord.

I said the day of wrath is the father's wrath. Part of his wrath is allowing of the antichrist to reign; tribulation etc. This is NOT the same with the day of christ or the lord.

The day of wrath happens before the day of the Lord like Joel 2 v 31 says.

OkCornel:
Infact, @ Maestro21,

Let me bring the direct translation of the greek bible to prove the restrainer would move of its own accord;

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm

See how it translates directly from Greek...further proving that;
1. The restrainer acts of its own accord and;
2. The church will still be very much around when the restrainer goes;

2 Thessalonians 2 v 7;
The for mystery already is working of lawlessness only [there is] the [one] restraining [it] at present until out of [the] midst he might be [gone]

This is quite unsophisticated. Do you see a V-ASM-3S in the morphology column of the parallel Greek?

It means: verb, active, singular masculine 3rd person and superlative.

Virtually screaming that it is not passive and the action is carried out on the subject. That is why KJV says till he is taking out of the way. The translators knew what the language implied.

OkCornel:
2 Thessalonians 2 v 7;
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way

Did Paul mention this restrainer would be taken out of the way by another entity? @maestro21

He that withholds will do so till he be TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY.

OkCornel:


God ultimately is the restrainer, as He has not handed authority over to the beast to rule.
Where does the scripture state the restrainer has to be removed by another entity?

Verse 7 of 2 Thess 2?

OkCornel:


Matthew 24 v 29-31 and Revelation 6 v 12-17 is the same event. The day of the Lord, which will happen after the great tribulation.

Unless you are telling us the sun will be darkened, the moon will turn to blood and stars will fall from heaven twice?

What twice do you keep talking about when you are yet to prove you know what I am actually saying.

Verse 29 to 31 are not in one passage of time. Luke 21:25-26 prove it. Even studying Revelation 6 you should know that each seal was released in a different passage of time that has to be years in reality. Lol

Did Joel 2 v 31 not say this was before the day of the Lord?