OkCornel:


And looking at the broader context, all the scriptures talks about sounds coming from the trumpet (aka Trump). I see no point separating the sound from the instrument. It's still one and the same thing.

It is not because I am trying to show the disparity between Revelation 8 that refers to the Trumpets during the tribulation (which nobody on earth was hearing by the way) compared to the trump sounds that will be used to initiate the rapture.

OkCornel:


One person (not an organisation), would rule the nation with a rod of iron. Context is key.

So the people in Revelation 12 v 17 who keep God's commandments and are faithful to their testimony about Jesus? Are they not believers? are they not the church? Hmmm?

They are not the church. They are called tribulation saints because they are the ones who believed in Jesus during the tribulation or maybe lukewarm Christians who became serious because they missed the rapture.

Jesus already said in Revelation 2:26-27 that he will give the church the rod of iron to rule with him. The church wields the same authority with the head.

OkCornel:


How can the church be the restrainer when Paul clearly mentioned in verse 1 that Jesus would not come to gather the saints until the rebellion occurs, the Lawless One is revealed and God's temple defiled in verse 2 -4 of that same chapter?

take note of the bolded verses and texts in CAPS too;

2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4;
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, FOR THAT DAY WILL NOT COME until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

That is why I told you to also read verse 7 and 8.

Paul says something must happen before the gathering of saints (rapture) and the coming of the lord (2nd advent).

1. An apostasy. (Verse 3)
2. The removal of the restrainer (verse 6-7) (RAPTURE)


3. Man of sin revealed
4. 2nd adventure or coming of the lord.

OkCornel:


Please consult the dictionary. Trump and Trumpet can be used interchangeably

Just like brother and sibling can be used interchangeably yet only the context will truly define if the brother being used is literal brother (like sibling) or if it is being used in a more generic sense. Like I can refer to a fellow Nigerian as a brother even though they are not my biological brother.

Context is key.

OkCornel:


Two things

Revelation 12 v 5 clearly relates to one person who would rule the world with an iron scepter
She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

You can't interpret the male child to mean the church being raptured.

Because the church is still very much around in Revelation 12 v 17;
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

The man child is christ. Christ refers to Jesus (head) and his church (his body).

OkCornel:


Wait a minute, are you telling us Paul was referring to the church as the restrainer in verse 7 of 2 Thessalonians 2? When Paul clearly mentioned in verse 1 of the same chapter that the Jesus would not come for the church until the lawless one is revealed and the temple defiled?

Yes the church is the restrainer and no Paul did not say Jesus will not come for the church until the man of sin is revealed.

Paul starts verse 1 by saying he wants to share some information concerning the gathering of saints (rapture) and the coming of the lord (2nd coming). They are not the same events which is what I wanted to prove to you.

Since the rapture happens before the 2nd coming, Paul aims to address what must happen before both events.

OkCornel:
@Maestro21

Dictionary meaning of Trump;

trump noun (2)
Definition of trump (Entry 3 of 3)
1a: TRUMPET
bchiefly Scotland : JEW'S HARP
2: a sound of or as if of trumpeting
the trump of doom

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trump

Trump is either the Trumpet itself, or the sound from a Trumpet or Jew's Harp

Yes but Trump and Trumpet are not the same. Trumpets, trump. Using Trump to refer to trumpet can only then be determined by the context which is what I have tried to show you from the beginning.

OkCornel:


So if they are the same event, it is one trumpet sound required for this, not two. Paul was referring to only one trumpet sound blown.
That is the same trumpet which would be blown after the tribulation to gather the elect from all over as Jesus also explained in Matthew 24.

If 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 cannot be last trumpet referring to a pretribulation rapture if there would be another trumpet blown after the great tribulation in Matthew 24 v 29-31. That's the point I'm making here.

1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4 v 16-17, 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4, Revelation 12 v 17 and Matthew 24 v 29-31 clearly indicates the church will still be very much around when the great tribulation kicks off.

You just skipped past the fact that Paul called it a last trump. You cannot refer to "last" if there was only one. So that shows you a gap in your theology. You have to know and then answer the question about the first trump because it will show you why Paul referred to the second trump as the last.

OkCornel:


2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4 ties in perfectly with Revelation 12 when the rebellion occurs, and the Revelation 13 when the beast is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4;
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, FOR THAT DAY WILL NOT COME until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Revelation 12 v 17;
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.


Abi is Revelation 12 v 17 not also referring to the church?

No it does not at all.

I warned about some translations with Bible prophecy because some of them are completely flat out false. That word is apostasy. The rebellion is apostasy. Many Christians will deny their faith. That is what 2 Thessalonians is referring to.

Revelation 12 v 17 is completely unrelated. The woman is Israel. In verse 5 the manchild (Christ - which refers to Jesus and his church), was raptured from the world. In anger and realizing his time to inflict pain was shortened and he missed the chance to get them, deciding to focus on the REMNANTS of the the woman's seed.

You cannot have a remnant church. Remnants always referred to Israelites that remained after Israel had suffered persecution, war, capture etc. Every single verse in Chapter 12 shows this clearly.

Conclusively, during the great tribulation, many jews will believe in Jesus Christ because of the preaching of the 144K. They are the people being referred to in verse 17.

OkCornel:


How can they be two trumps when you mentioned earlier that 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 are the same event?

Yes and both allude to 2 trumps. If 1 Corinthians 15 was not clear, 1 Thessalonians 4 made it clear.

My question to you is, what does the first trump announce before we can conclude what the 2nd trump was about?

OkCornel:


Nope, it's one and the same. The last trump where all believers in Christ would be resurrected.

Or do you dispute both scriptures relate to the first resurrection?

I don't want to veer off into the first resurrection because the first resurrection is not the rapture like people think. The rapture is for the CHURCH ALONE.

I said there are 2 trumps mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4. You say no but Paul refers to a last trump in 1 Corinthians 15 to which I asked, when was the first? You have to answer the first to see why the second was called the last.

OkCornel:


Thanks for bringing this up. The pronoun "we" clears up a lot of things. It refers to the church in that context.
Now let me ask, going by what Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4, would the believers still be on earth when the lawless one is revealed?

No the believers who were ready and prepared for the rapture will not be here. Which is why Paul is admonishing them not to be troubled and to comfort their hearts with what he was revealing.

OkCornel:


At the bolded, I am not following you. I thought you mentioned 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 and 1 Thessalonians 4 v 16-17 is the same event.

And on a side note, the 7th Trumpet from the last Angel is not the last trumpet.

Yes the very same event. So you can use 1 Thessalonians 4 to match 1 Corinthians 15 and it will tie in perfectly without any contradiction.

I'll leave the 7th trumpet part for now as I want the discussion to be cohesive.

OkCornel:


And where does the sound come from?

Good. However, Paul then refers to only 2 trump sounds both in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4. Do you see it?

OkCornel:


Oh please don't tell us verse 7 and 8 refers to the church, when Paul was actually addressing the church in verse 1 of that same chapter.

That would be contradictory.

Of course he was referring to the church or else who was he referring to there?

Don't forget Paul kept showing a dichotomy. He said "we" "ye" in referring to the church and then "them", "they" etc in referring to the world.

Do you see it? Read the verses past verse 9-11 for instance.

OkCornel:


I put the Amplified Bible version there as well. Abi is that a terrible translation too?

Did you notice it said "trumpet call" and the trumpet will SOUND?

because trump refers to the sound.

OkCornel:


Nope, the emphasis of 1 Corinthians 15 is the last trumpet which would be blown.

Now my humble question is this. If this last trumpet signifies pre-tribulation rapture... then which trumpet is Jesus referring to that would be blown after the greatest distress on earth?

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

That is why I said why will Paul not make any reference to the first trump or maybe he did.

Then I showed you another place he talked about the same thing and in that instance he referred to the 2 trump sounds. If there are 2 trump sounds it means the 2nd trump will be the last trump.

Do you get it?

I also told you that Jesus's reference ties in to Revelation 6 and not to what Paul said because the events Jesus described before that final trumpet or 7th trumpet from the last angel is not in sync with what Paul said.

I can show you more.

OkCornel:
@Maestro21

Also consider this passage from Paul in addition to the ones we discussed;

2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4;

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.


The above verse clearly shows the believers would be very much around when the lawless one (the antichrist) who would defile God's temple would be revealed - Daniel 9 v 27 and Matthew 24 v 15.

You are slightly deviating now but do you notice verse 7 says an event has to happen before the man of sin is revealed? The proof is verse 8. Do you see it?

OkCornel:


My question is simple, where in 1 Corinthians 15 did it mention only Jesus would return?

1 Corinthians 15 on its own does not say so. But 1 Corinthians 15 does not tell you anything about how many trump/trumpet sounds will be heard right?

OkCornel:


Read again, trump, trumpet ...means the same thing;

1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 (NIV);
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52;
51 Listen very carefully, I tell you a mystery [a secret truth decreed by God and previously hidden, but now revealed]; we will not all sleep [in death], but we will all be [completely] changed [wondrously transformed],
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at [the sound of] the last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [who believed in Christ] will be raised imperishable, and we will be [completely] changed [wondrously transformed].

It is not the same. NIV is one of the poorer translations when it comes especially to eschatology or prophecies in general. Remember if that verse is parallel with 1 Thessalonians 4 v 16, the literal translation is trump.

There is a reason it is key but I can let it pass for now just to show you more.

Let us say that word is Trumpet then what did the first Trumpet signify from 1 Corinthians 15 or from 1 Thessalonians 4?

OkCornel:


Where in 1 Corinthians 15 did it mention only Jesus would return?

But 1 Corinthians 15 is a segment of 1 Thessalonians 4 and was authored by the same man. Verse 16 of 1 Thessalonians 4 says it is Jesus himself.

OkCornel:
@Maestro21

Read 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52. The key word there is THE LAST TRUMP. This of course comes after the seven trumpet judgments in the book of revelation...those trumpet judgments would be blown in a period Jesus referred to as greatest period of distress in earth's history - see Matthew 24 v 21.

The last trumpet would then be blown immediately after the distress of those days - Matthew 24 v 29-31

Yes Last trump refers to the last sound made by a trumpet. It never says last trumpet. Do you agree?

To buttress this, when was the first trump blown if that particular trump was the last and what did the first trump signify?

You referred to the 7 trumpets in Revelation but those 7 trumpets came after the 7 seals. In fact the 7th seal is what opened up the 7 trumpets. If you compare what the seals meant to what Jesus said in Matthew 24 you see them follow the same order as Jesus said it.

I want to say more but I want my posts to be concise.

OkCornel:


Absolutely! It would be a delight to have a meaningful discussion on this matter.

1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4 v 16 -17 and Matthew 24 v 29 - 31 are one and the same event. The first resurrection where Christ comes for the elect to reign with Him for a thousand years.

I have shown you posers to reconcile from the verses you have referred to. 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 and 1 Thessalonians 4 v 16-17 are referring to the same event. I agree. But Matthew 24 v 29-31 is not the same. I have already given you 2 clues. I can present more but I don't want a very long post.

So to help the discussion, try to reconcile how Matthew 24 refers to angels but both 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 only refer to Jesus himself and not angels. That should tell you the events are not the same. Matthew 24 matches more with Revelation 6 for e.g.

OkCornel:
Often times I wonder why proponents of the PreTrib rapture doctrine do not ask certain questions.

First question, when will the last trump be blown?

1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52;
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Now my humble question is this, if the above scripture would happen (i.e. rapture) before the great tribulation, which trumpet is Jesus referring to in Matthew 24?

Are you willing to have a meaningful debate devoid of name-calling? If you are, then I'll show you in so many ways where you have missed it. For e.g, your question could have started by asking when is the first trump? Also take note that trump is a sound which is not to be confused with the word trumpet which is the instrument.

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


Pretrib rapture doctrine believers, if the last trump would be blown before the great tribulation, which trumpet was Jesus referring to that would be blown immediately after the great tribulation?

Notice in the Matthew 24 which you quoted Jesus says 1. That Angels (plural) will cause his elects from the 4 corners of the earth to come to where Jesus is landing.
2. That all human eyes will see him as he descends to the earth.

Is this not different from.1 Corinthians 15 that you just quoted? In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul says it happened in the twinkling of an eye which means it was so rapid that the human eye won't catch it. Paul pivots on this same teaching in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 where he says Jesus himself is the one who comes down and uses the voice of an arch angel to initiate the movement of Christians. That verse says nothing about more than one angel.

Don't you think you are confusing both events? Don't you think Matthew 24 is not the same event with 1 Corinthians 15?

I have more things to say but let me start here.

needanswer:
You always hear 6 Billions plus people watched the healing stream (which is falsehood) but assuming it was true more than 80% of people in the world out of 8 billion souls would have been healed. Statistics show that 95% of the human population globally suffer from one sickness or the other, whether major or minor.

How can you verify that the first highlighted part is false? Where is your reference for this "stat"?


Go to the hospitals today or wait till Monday and go to any hospital in Nigeria or outside Nigeria and you will still see crowds of sick people lined up at the hospital.

So please which 6 billion plus people did pastor Chris heal in his healing stream?

This is a silly question.

The funny one I saw on Twitter was one where Pastor Chris prayed for a woman that had a tumour on her face that she had been healed but the tumour was still there after the healing

when is a tumor healed and how do you know that a tumor is healed the instant it is?

Did your man of God warn that the lockdowns will do nothing but worsen the situation?

Did he repeatedly tell you that it will cripple economies?

Did he call them lock-ups?

He must be a prophet and one who hears from God.

If yours did not, well, nothing spoil. Some are preachers and some are men of God.

Extremely very very rare. Not from the HHS. Totally made up.

Notice how all these people are lying, making up numbers, connecting bad things to the jabs because they have something to gain (even when the manufacturers are idemnified).

But the manufacturers have no reason to lie. They have always been honest and above board.

Extremely rare

Extremely rare

What some agbayas don't know is, Charlie Zink was a very good swimmer and had a history of swimming in that pool. So hearing he drowned would have shocked people who knew him especially when it was a lake that he and his friends had swam in many times.

Well, here is the reason he drowned:


Is it not convenient that the autopsy report does not mention asphyxiation by drowning or water filling up the child's lungs?

That is because he had a vaccine induced heart condition that caused him to suffer a stroke and caused him to drown.

That is why his death was recorded as a vaccine injury.

But fools want to quote the conspirators of a crime as proof that they did not conspire in the crime.

I have seen extremely slow people in life but even I am still shocked at how slow some others can truly be.

I have told people who cannot research to stop quoting me. I don't suffer fools gladly. If I put a fact here it is because it has been thoroughly investigated. One who has nothing to hide, hides nothing.

Any sensible person should have been suspicious of an obituary claiming this: see attached.

One would think, if a child is at the bottom of a lake for 2 hours, it is a natural assumption that he died of drowning. So why would they be investigating it? Why even claim the child died "in the process of swinging..."?

LOL. Retards should follow-up

What more?

I can go on and on for days literally.

Nobody should open their smelly mouths to claim

- nobody died
- jabs are safe and effective
- COVID-19 was not made in a lab
- they never said the jabs will prevent COVID-19 spread

Or that
- you said COVID19 was not real

Or any other nonsense.

If you need evidence, ask politely and I will feed you till it falls out of your nose.

Be getting ready for jab 4 and 5 and 6...

Be getting ready for them coming after babies this year like never before.

Get ready for strokes, myocarditis, people testing for AIDS after taking these jabs. Oh many will die and they will say it is from complications due to COVID-19.

Don't you dare say you were not warned copiously. Sometimes with tears.