OkCornel:


You've agree the authority the beast (Lawless One) comes from God? And he can't do anything until God gives him the authority?

There you go...

So the position you hold is not accountable to answering questions and never follows the context nor the meaning of the language itself. It just has to follow whatever you want it to mean at the time right?

So if Paul says a restrainer has to be REMOVED that is someone or some force has to remove the strainer. You say the restrainer is God but you won't tell us who or what force removed God?

OkCornel:


The day of the Lord is one literal day, when He returns simple and short. Anything after that is the millennial reign, which is different from the day of the Lord.

How can you show this in scripture like I show you? You are yet to prove anything you have said.

OkCornel:


My question there to you is...how many times will the sun be darkened, the moon turn to blood and stars fall from the sky?

It's the same event in Revelation 6 v 12-17 and Matthew 24 v 29-31.

Lol, for you to downplay the events in Matthew 24 v 29 as just tribulation rather than the great tribulation...in that same Matthew 24, see what Jesu said about the distress of those days;

Matthew 24 v 21 & 29-31;
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Which ties in smoothly with Revelation 6 v 12-17;
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

How are you missing it this badly.

Immediately after the 3.5 years is the great tribulation, which is when I say verse 29 happens (in a period of time). That period of time is captured in Revelation 6:12-16 as well as Luke 21:25

Is that clear enough?

OkCornel:


Please what does it mean when Zechariah clearly wrote IT SHALL BE ONE DAY (not more than a day), and in the evening of that day, there shall be light

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

It is that you don't get it that is funny.

The reason you have 24 hours is because you have (day -12 hours and night- 12 hours). Noon is part of day the way evening is part of night.

When Jesus comes he is brighter than the sun and becomes the source of light for the world. As a result, there will be no noon, evening, bright or dark. It will just be light which means it will just be the day part of a day.

I hope you get it. See Revelation 22 v 5

Steep:
Note the word in that day, meaning it is taking place in the prophetic day of the Lord.

I have tried to tell him it is a prophetic day in many different ways.

OkCornel:


Read verse 7 again

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Are you for real? This is funny.

Let me simplify it. It will be a day; I don't mean day or night but just day. Even in the evening it will be bright like the day usually is.

LOL

OkCornel:


Lol, so the sun will turn to sackcloth and the moon into blood during the great tribulation? When Jesus clearly mention this would happen after the great tribulation;

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; THE STARS WILL FALL FROM THE SKY, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with A LOUD TRUMPET CALL, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Revelation 6 v 12-17;
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
13 and THE STARS IN THE SKY FELL TO EARTH, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”



@Maestro21, let me give you a hint...from those two scriptural references...how many times will stars fall from the sky to the earth? in one day? or two separate days

Tribulation is NOT GREAT tribulation. I thought these were basic facts. It appears a lot has to be broken down before any weighty stuff is discussed.

Tribulation = 7 Years.

Half way into it till the end is the GREAT tribulation.

Study the same story from Luke 21 v 23-25. Take note of GREAT tribulation/distress depending on translation.

OkCornel:


Nope, you are clearly conflating the day of the Lord (the second coming of Christ) with the millennial reign...which are two separate events.

The day of the Lord is a literal day, what happens after that is the millennial reign. The millennial reign is not the day of the Lord.

Did Zechariah 14 v 7 tell you it was a literal day? If not, provide a verse to buttress your argument.

The second coming of Christ begins the day of the lord. Millennial reign, judgement of the world are part of the day of the lord. Jesus was the light of the world as soon as he touched down. You could not have a night again so the day was a continuous day.

OkCornel:


Quite simple, until he hands over authority to the beast over all nations, tribes and peoples to rule over...the beast can't do shit

Paul says he that restrains has to be taken out of the way. Not that he has to step aside. It says taken out. The Greek is ACTIVE and it is an action performed on the subject.

Who can perform that action to God?

OkCornel:


So do you agree Matthew 24 v 29-31 (the day of the Lord) and Revelation 6 v 12-17 is the same event? witnessed by the darkening of the sun and the moon turning to blood?

Revelation 6 from verse 12-17 are events before the second coming. They are in the 2nd 3.5 years or the great tribulation. Matthew 24 v 29 tallies with verses 12-17 of Revelation 6. Verse 30-31 of Matthew 24 is after the 7 years of the tribulation which means after the 2nd 3.5 years.

OkCornel:


so according to you, the sun will be darkened, and the moon would be turned to blood...not in one literal day...but from the second coming of Christ till the end of the millennial reign? Bravo!!!

The use of strawman is weak. The sun being darkened etc happen before the second coming of the lord. I have said so.

OkCornel:


Zechariah 14 v 1-7;
1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.


@Maestro21, take note of the bolded parts. Will all these things happen in one literal day? or will happen continuously throughout the millennial reign of Christ?

This is the beginning of the day of the lord.

OkCornel:


Look at the common themes that shows you both are the same;

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with A LOUD TRUMPET CALL, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Revelation 6 v 12-17;
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”





It's the same day. The sun goes dark, and the moon turns to blood

Don't you see that those events happen before Jesus comes down for his second coming? That is what those verses are saying. Revelation 19 says it again parenthetically. lol

Remember day of the Lord starts from the beginning of his second coming but it continues till after the millennial reign.

OkCornel:


Sorry, please are you telling us that the day of the Lord happened on the Pentecost?

Nobody related Pentecost to the day of the Lord. It appears you don't know the references. Joel 2:28-31 says the spirit is poured, great stuff will happen, the sun will be darkened, moon will be blooded etc. Peter says verse 28 happened Acts 3 yet verse 31 has to happen 2000+ years after verse 28. (According to John)

So it is not new language where a Prophet (Peter) describes an event that will occur during the day of the Lord even though it will be at least 1000 years after the second coming.

Do you understand?

OkCornel:


Lol, so why isn't it called the days of the Lord? rather than the day of the Lord...hmmm

Please provide scriptural references proving that the day of the Lord spans from the second coming of Christ and continues all through till the new world.

Start with Zechariah 14 v 7 that I have already shown you clearly. The day is called day because it is a continuous day. There is no night from when Jesus lands till the new world.

OkCornel:


2 Peter 3 and the opening of the 6th seal in Revelation 6 v 12-17 is the same event. The day of the Lord which will happen before the millennial reign;

Revelation 6 v 12-17;
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Also, false. Revelation 6 v 12-17 is part of the great tribulation which is before the millennial reign which is before the destruction of the world and melting of the elements.

OkCornel:


2 Peter 3 and the opening of the 6th seal in Revelation 6 v 12-17 is the same event. The day of the Lord which will happen before the millennial reign;

Revelation 6 v 12-17;
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

The day of wrath is not the day of the lord. The wrath is the father's wrath which the tribulation is one of the consequences. The day of the Lord is the day of the Christ.

OkCornel:


You implied it. Did you notice Apostle Peter was writing about the day of the Lord here? He said the heavens will disappear with a roar...but you're telling us all this would happen after the millennial reign

2 Peter 3 v 10-14;

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.

Prophets can dish out a whole 1000 years of prophecy compressed into few lines. Remember Joel's prophecy that Peter said had begun in Acts 3? Peter said that was the beginning of the last day but in Joel's prophecy, Joel says it like the blood moon etc happens right after the outpouring of the spirit. Prophets talk that way.

Peter was describing all the events that happen during that period called the day of the lord which from my definition above you will see why I am right.

OkCornel:


The day of the Lord, and the second coming of Jesus are the same day. When does Jesus mention He will return?

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with A LOUD TRUMPET CALL, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

By your definition the day of the lord is the 2nd coming of Christ. I say partly right and partly wrong.

Remember when I said the day of the lord was not a literal day? Zechariah 14 v 7 says so. The day of the Lord or the day of christ starts with the second coming but it continues all through till the new world.

OkCornel:


Please answer the question. If the day of the Lord would happen after the millennial reign...why is Apostle Peter admonishing the church to be spotless and look forward to that very day if the church would not be around? hmmm?

Why did Apostle Paul also mention that day would not come until the beast is revealed hmmm?

2 Peter 3 v 10-14 and 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4 clearly proves the church would very much be around when the great tribulation happens

You are yet to refute the fact that the destruction of the world comes after the millennial reign. How do you think you can then tender the very 2 Peter 3 verses lol

OkCornel:


Please answer the question. If the day of the Lord would happen after the millennial reign...why is Apostle Peter admonishing the church to be spotless and look forward to that very day if the church would not be around? hmmm?

Why did Apostle Paul also mention that day would not come until the beast is revealed hmmm?

2 Peter 3 v 10-14 and 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4 clearly proves the church would very much be around when the great tribulation happens

Where did anyone posit that the day of the lord is after the millenial reign?

OkCornel:


@Maestro21, who was Apostle Peter addressing here?

Jewish ( Christians and those he was hoping to win over).

OkCornel:


You are still missing my point, where in Matthew 24 did it mention the gathering of the elect (which 2 Peter 3 v 1-8 clearly identifies not to be Jews only) would happen after Jesus lands on the mount of Olives?

I am after the timing and location of the gathering.

But I just provided other layers of the story from other writings or don't you know that is what we did to be able to retrace how Jesus actually died?

In the verses I showed did the gathering not happen when he was here on earth?

OkCornel:


How convenient , so the pronoun used by Paul in identifying the restrainer is a parable?

Is the body of christ not a "he"?

OkCornel:


Good, so based on this your answer...who is the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2 v 7?

Till he is taken out of the way!!!! Tell me how God is taken out of the way and by whom? I am waiting.

OkCornel:


Please where did Paul explicitly mention there will one trumpet call for the dead believers, and another trumpet call for believers who are alive. Paul is quite detailed in his writings, so I would appreciate scriptural references showing one trumpet call for dead believers, then another trumpet call for believers who are alive, not your assumption.

I am showing you it translates but you are not computing. When I ask questions to see where to robe you in, you evade them.

Was there one trump? If yes, why did detailed Paul say last trump? There must have at least been a first right?

OkCornel:


There's no gap in the sequence. All this you typed won't happen until;
1. The dragon and his angels are hurled out of heaven in Revelation 12 (the rebellion)
2. Then the beasts are revealed in Revelation 13.

You have everything jumbled. Revelation 12 is a comprehensive vision of signs from the beginning of the story to the end of it. Revelation 13 is parenthetical.

Revelation 12 v 5 is the rapture, v 6 is the first 3.5 years of the tribulation (which means the antichrist is already here since he is the leader of the tribulation). V 7-8 is what spiritually led to the GREAT tribulation or the 2nd 3.5 years. Verse 9 is what will happen. Satan will come himself to dwell in the antichrist, prior to this point the antichrist was being inhabited by another high ranking evil spirit.

Revelation 13 just mentions that the antichrist will head the world as a political leader but that he would also have a religious accomplice.

OkCornel:
Maestro21
Further proof that Christ would come for all believers dead and alive after the great tribulation, not before it;
This is Apostle Peter writing to the church!

2 Peter 3 v 10-14;

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him


This is further proof that the church (not just the Jews) will be very much around in the days of the great tribulation, looking forward to the return of Jesus.

If there was a pre-tribulation rapture, what then is the point in Apostle Peter writing to the church to look forward to the coming of Christ when all these destruction would take place? hmmm?

I have alot to say because you are not answering questions that might help me know exactly where to show you things. For e.g, the melting of the elements and destruction of the world will happen AFTER the millennial reign. Do you see already that you are quoting scriptures out of context?

OkCornel:


If his elect are only Jews, how come there are tribulation saints martyred from across all peoples, tongues and nations in Revelation 7 v 9?

Are you telling us there won't be any surviving tribulation saints who are non-Jews He will come for at his second coming? hmmm? Don't they also qualify as the elect? Hmmm?

I never said the elect are ONLY Jews. I said they are predominantly jews in the same way the body of christ today is predominantly gentile even though some jews are part of us.

OkCornel:


And who gave the antichrist this authority?

God.

OkCornel:
@maestro21

If the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2 v 8 refers to the church, why did Apostle Paul use the pronoun "He" to refer to the restrainer...rather than the usual pronoun "We" when the church is referred to by Paul?


2 Thessalonians 2 v 7
7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the ONE who now holds it back will continue to do so till HE is taken out of the way

Prophets speak in parables. If you caught v 5 you will see him say he is only reminding them about things he had already told them before. So one way of refreshing people's memories is to restate a fact in coded prophetic language.

That "he" is the body of christ. If Jesus is a he, his body will also be called he.

Pronouns won't work in this instance because Paul did say "We who are alive and remain..." and he certainly knew that he will not be alive so one might ask why he said we when he should have said "those" who are alive and remain...

OkCornel:


Please and please, show us where exactly in Matthew 24 that Jesus would land on earth, then the angels will gather all the elect to him AFTER HE LANDS ON EARTH

Do we establish Bible truths in isolation? Zechariah 14 v 1-4; Revelation 19v1-20 are parallel events with Matthew 24 around verse 29-31. They show it clearly.