₦airaland Forum

OkCornel:
Yes the dead will rise first, then those who are alive will be transformed. All this will happen in one trumpet call.
Not a separate one for the dead, and a separate one for those alive;

1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52;
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Now read it slowly, from v 51 Paul says "we will all be changed at the last trumpet call". The emphasis is on all there. In other words, by the time the last (second) trump sound is heard, all of us would have been raptured.

But this part of the verse is missing some details that we can derive from 1 Thessalonians 4 v 16-17 since the author and overarching theme are the same. In the latter verse, Paul says "actually, the dead in christ will rise first at the sound of a trump".

Now I told you from the beginning that context is key. By that I mean, Paul called the trump that by the time it was sounded everyone had changed the last one and I asked you why anyone will name anything last except of course there was a first. So it is easy to decipher that there had to be at least 2 trump sounds. First and Last or first and second. That is the minimum. Are you following thus far?

OkCornel:
Okay, I have shown you the sequence of events in Revelation 12 and 13 clearly demonstrating that the beast would not be revealed until the dragon and his angels rebel and are hurled out from heaven.

But since you disagree, let's examine your view of the rebellion. If you say it's people leaving the faith before the lawless one is revealed, that means only a handful of believers would be "raptured" or there might not even be a church to rapture before the tribulation according to your timeline.

Your sequence of events has so many gaps. We can examine it. According to Revelation 12 v 6, the woman (Israel) already fled into the wilderness (Jordan etc) where God was going to take care of her supernaturally for 1260 days or 3.5 years (30 days was a month in John's day). What does that tell you? The antichrist already was revealed 3.5 years earlier. Because the second 3.5 years of Daniel's last week is the beginning of the GREAT tribulation. The ordinary tribulation had commenced 3.5 years earlier. So as you can see, the antichrist had to be revealed on the day the church is raptured.

As for your other question about the number being low etc, you are right. I don't want us to stray too far because this point is a digression, but the first flight of rapture will have few people. That is why Jesus taught us to pray to be counted worthy to join that group. I'm part of it!

OkCornel:
1 Thessalonians 4 v 13-17
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52;
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

@Maestro21 where in these scriptures do you see one trumpet call for the dead, and the second trumpet call (your own understanding of last trumpet) for believers who are alive?

From what I can see, especially in the text bolded in red...it is one trumpet call that will wake the dead believers and transform the ones who are alive to meet with Christ.

The last trumpet would be blown in Matthew 24 v 29-31 when Christ comes for the elect all over the world.

Do you agree that it says a group will rise first?

Let me break it down in simple steps.

OkCornel:
Lmao, how is it the last trump, when there are other trumps after that?

Remember you could not answer what the first trump was, right? Can you see why you cannot answer that? The answer to that will show why Paul contextually referred to the other trump as last. It is literally the same way he called Jesus the 2nd Adam and then later, last. He used last and 2nd interchangeably because he was referring to one topic.

You are the one trying to confuse every mention of trumpet as if it is the same event even when I have shown you in many instances that Matt 24 is not 1 Cor 15.

For the umpteenth time,

In Matthew 24, all eyes see Jesus, he lands on earth, angels do the harvesting, and it was for people alive. In 1 Cor 15, Jesus himself does the harvesting. He is in the clouds not on earth. Only those being raptured see him. 1 Thessalonians 4 says the LORD HIMSELF compared to Angels in Matthew 24.

OkCornel:
The rebellion there refers to the rebellion of the dragon and his angels in Revelation 12. When they are cast from heaven, the beast would be revealed in Revelation 13.

Completely untrue. The word is apostasia. It was used in every context to refer to people forsaking their faith.

OkCornel:
Now if you say the last trump in 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 will be blown before the great tribulation. How can that be the last trump when there will be another trumpet call after the great tribulation hmmm?

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with A LOUD TRUMPET CALL, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.



@Maestro21, take note of the bolded fonts in red.

Because the last trump is the last of the 2 trumps that will be sounded during the rapture which has nothing to do with the trumpet that will be blown when Jesus touches down on earth. That particular trumpet is connected to the 7 judgement trumpets. Jesus coming down is a judgement to the world if you remember.

OkCornel:
Both scriptures have nothing to do with Paul. I asked for a scripture where Paul revealed who the restrainer is.

Anyways, let's examine these;

Luke 10 v 19;
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Revelation 13 v 7;
7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

Look at the bolded parts in red in Revelation 13 v 7, and bear in mind...this would happen after the rebellion in Revelation 12 happens.

Same thing Paul mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4;

2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4;
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND OUR BEING GATHERED UNTO HIM, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, FOR THAT DAY WILL NOT COME UNTIL THE REBELLION OCCURS and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

The word your translation is referring to as rebellion is apostasy. A falling away from the faith. It is not a rebellion against the antichrist. Your translation literally says that the antichrist will only be revealed after the "rebellion" proving to you that the rebellion is not against him.

Look up the Greek for the word it refers to Christians leaving the faith. Simple.

OkCornel:
Both scriptures have nothing to do with Paul. I asked for a scripture where Paul revealed who the restrainer is.

Anyways, let's examine these;

Luke 10 v 19;
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Revelation 13 v 7;
7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

I'll talk about Paul but will Paul's testimony override Jesus's? That is why I had to make sure we were on the same frequency.

In Luke, Jesus is giving the authority to restrain all forms of evil to the church. In Revelation 13, John says the angel told him that the antichrist will have authority over the saints at the time. Remember it says he will have authority to DEFEAT them.

So is Revelation 13 not contradicting Luke 10 if the saints there or God's holy people is referring to the church?

OkCornel:
Which will kick off after Jesus gathers his elect in Matthew 24 v 29-31. His elect are not just Jews, but people from all nations and tongues

His elect by the time he comes back is the Jews. They will be gathered from all nations that many fled to. Brethren by Isaiah was always Jews. Just like Daniel referred to his people when he said brethren.

That isn't to say no non jews will be saved at that time. I said at that time the calender is for the jews just like the church age is for predominantly the non jews.

OkCornel:
I don't see anywhere in the scriptures where there is one trump call for the dead believers and another trump call for believers who are alive.
It is a single trump call where Paul mentioned all believers (dead and alive) would be transformed.

Slow down. Now let me ask you this, will the last trump in 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 be blown before the great tribulation? or after the great tribulation...

Before the tribulation. That is even before the Great tribulation.

Now study 1 Corinthians 15:52 slowly. Paul clearly shows that by the last trump all in christ would have changed. Why did he call only trump sound the "last" one? You only say last if there is at the very least a first.

That first Paul says the dead will rise FIRST. That is why I said compare it with 1 Thessalonians 4 v 16-17. If Paul says they will rise FIRST it means another group will rise SECOND or LAST.

Now go back to 1 Corinthians 15 and see how Paul calls Jesus the 2nd and last Adam. That proves that there was a first Adam right? And Paul is interchangeably using 2nd and last. So Paul is referring to the 2nd trump sound as the last trump sound. QED

OkCornel:
Kindly provide scriptural references where Paul identified who the restrainer is.

Can you reconcile Luke 10:19 with Revelation 13:7?

OkCornel:
Prove it with the scripture that the coming of the Lord is not a literal day.

I can prove it and I will but you have to tell me what the day of christ is from scripture first. Because you just confused it with the rapture.

OkCornel:
To prove to you the elect Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24 are not only Jews, read Isaiah 66 v 18-24;

Isaiah 66 v 18-24;
18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.

21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

This is a millennial reign prophecy.

Jokerman:
God is the restrained (the holy spirit), nit the church. You think heaven is a place to enter by luck?? You don't want to die for God and prove you love him?? The antichrist is coming to test all souls on earth... better be prepared and know your God, and do exploits.

If the holy spirit is being removed then how would Christians continue to be Christians during the tribulation without the holy spirit? How will anyone get saved without the holy spirit if he is the restrainer?

Sorry but the only authority to restrain evil was given to the church during the church age. Luke 10:19 says so. Bring your own verses to prove your stance.

Jokerman:
So raising someone from the dead will be a secret stuff?

Are you being serious?

OkCornel:
You still don't seem to get me. The other trumpet calls are the judgment trumpets in the book of revelation.

If according to you 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 is the last trump which is the pre-trib rapture. What do you make of the trumpet sound in Matthew 24 v 29-31 which comes after the great tribulation?

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with A LOUD TRUMPET CALL, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 and Matthew 24 v 29-31 refers to the last trump, and Matthew 24 makes it clear this will happen after the great tribulation.

But if you disagree and still insist 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 refers to pre-trib rapture, then the trump in that verse is cannot be the last trump...as there will be another trumpet call after that one in Matthew 24

You are the one missing the point. And by not answering the question which is "what was the first trump call?" You may not understand why that call was called the last trump.

According to Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 there will be 2 trump calls during the rapture. The first trump will wake the Christians who are dead. Then the second trump will provoke Christians who are still alive to join them. Period. That second trump is what Paul was referring to as the last trump because there will be only 2 trumps on the rapture.

The Matthew 24 is the trump that will get ANGELS not Jesus to harvest Jewish people and bring them to where Jesus will be. At that same time, when Jesus lands EVERYONE on earth will see him yet in 1 Corinthians 15 Paul says the events will be so fast that the human eye won't see it. That should tell you both events are not the same.

OkCornel:
so why did Paul in verse 3 refer to these events (second coming of Christ and the gathering of the church) as though it would happen on the same day? He wrote THAT DAY WILL NOT COME UNTIL the lawless one is revealed.

The day he referred to was the day of christ. By the way, it is not one literal day.

OkCornel:
But this passage is straightforward.

Verse 1 states the coming of Jesus and our (i.e. Paul referring to the church) being gathered unto Him. That is all believers dead and alive including great tribulation saints.
Verse 3 states this would happen in a day. Not two separate day(s) ooo. It also states that this day won't come until the lawless one is revealed.
Verse 8 then states that Jesus would destroy the lawless one with the splendor OF HIS COMING.

To fit in the pre tribulation rapture doctrine in this passage means you have to separate the coming of the Jesus and the church being gathered unto Him in verse one as separate events on separate dates. But Paul clearly states otherwise, that this a one day event (see verse 3). Not two days event, with one day for pre-trib rapture and another day for his coming.

Yes the passage is straight forward.

Verse 2 "day of christ". What is the day of christ?

It is the day of christ Paul says won't happen until some events happen first.

He said first thing is a lot of Christians will drop their faith. Then, the restrainer will be removed and then the man of sin will be revealed before the day of christ happens.

Simple and straightforward. The removal of the restrainer is the rapture.

OkCornel:
Please read

Revelation 7 v 9 - 14;
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
10 And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12 saying: “Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!”
13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 12 v 7
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.


Everyone is fair game irrespective of their tribe, language or nationality. As long as they are faithful to God's commands and steadfast in their testimony about Jesus.

This is people who got raptured after the great tribulation but before the 2nd coming do you agree?

Do you see any mention of Jesus being the one who brought these folks into heaven?

That is also a side talk, do you also notice the scripture says "they themselves have washed their robes"? What does the Bible say about the robe the church was to have- it says Jesus himself washed us. So different groups but we will veer off from your main arguments which is why I am not yet showing you more.

OkCornel:
Anyways, back to this point. In 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-8. Did it mention Jesus would show up twice?

Because he is not showing up twice. The only other time he is coming back to the earth will be exactly like the first time he came. It will be physical and he will land on this earth. The angels told his disciples in Acts 1. But in the rapture Jesus is not coming down to the earth. He will be in the clouds and we will gather to him and be with him till 7 years after when we come back down with him to this earth.

OkCornel:
So it is the Jews that would be gathered from the four winds, from one end of the Heavens to the other abi?

Yes.

OkCornel:
I see where the problem is coming from. You have assumed meeting the Lord in the air, and being with Him forever to mean being transported to Heaven. Paul is merely reiterating how the elect of God would be gathered in Matthew 24 v 29-31. Please show me where 1 Thessalonians 4 shows the church would be taken into Heaven.

Read the verse below and see how the elect would be gathered from one end of Heaven to the other AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other

I showed you Isaiah 11:11-16. It also mentions the Lord for a second time gathering his people from the 4 corners of the earth. It parallels perfectly with Matthew 24. One end of heaven to the other is horizon not "heaven". Literally saying the scattered Jews who ran away because of the great tribulation will be brought back supernaturally to Jerusalem when Jesus lands.

1 Thessalonians 4 also says "in the cloud" to let you know that the air being spoken about was not figurative. I can show you more but to me you are simply glossing over hard evidence.

OkCornel:
so if I get you correctly, you are telling us that the elect Jesus and His Angels will come for after the great tribulation in Matthew 24 v 29-31 are only Jews?

Yes predominantly because the church has been raptured at the time. The church will come back down with Jesus during the 2nd coming.

Also, just read Isaiah 11:12 it ties into Matthew 24 that you referred to.

OkCornel:
The tribulation would be global. Matthew 24 - Jesus speaks on how this would affect the Jews. Revelation 7 v 9 - Jon saw the bigger picture. A multitude from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. These are the tribulation saints.

Remember in Revelation 12 v 17 - the fallen dragon would wage war against those who keep God's commands and are steadfast in their testimony of Jesus. These are both Jews & Gentiles.

I agree that the tribulation is global but the antichrist will specifically target the believing Jews because he could not get the church. That is what Revelation 12 referred to.

Yes, some gentiles will be saved at the time but the calender is predominantly for the 'believing' jews just like some jews are still saved now even though the church age is predominantly for the gentiles.

OkCornel:
If the church is the elect as you've said, then which elect is Christ coming for after the tribulation of those days in Matthew 24?

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

You are probably not reading me well or cross-chekcing my references.

I said in the church age the church is the elect. But that church age will end at the rapture and the order goes back to the Jews. They become the elect again like they were prior to Jesus coming to die.

During the tribulation (particularly the great one) they will be the elect again. That is what Isaiah 11 and Romans 11 that we referred to showed you.

Isaiah 11:11-16 states it CLEARLY.

OkCornel:
Good good, read verse 8. It tells you what Jesus will do when He comes, which ties back to verse 1.

He will destroy the lawless one with the splendor of His coming. Unless after reading through 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-8, you want to tell us Jesus would come twice

You are missing the point.

In the rapture, Jesus does not come to the earth. The Bible says he is in the air, and we gather to meet him there and continue to be with him forever.

In the 2nd coming, Jesus comes down to this earth. He touches the earth. He lands in Jerusalem. He comes down with the church.

That is when he destroys the antichrist. During the 2nd coming.

Steep:
Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


Romans 11 has not be fulfilled yet, the old testament prophets all prophesied Israel's restoration. This would take place at the last wee of Daniel's 70 weeks.

You beat me to this. But I added Isaiah 11:11-16 for him as well.

OkCornel:
The tribulation of the church has been ongoing since the era of the Roman empire. That has not changed.

And to your poser, the church will always be there during the great tribulation even though the word "church" was not used by John between Chapter 5 to Chapter 18 of Revelation.

Take note of this, after the tribulation of those days, Jesus mentioned He and His angels will gather the elect from the entire earth - Matthew 24 v 29-31

Who are the elect? The elect is the church. Do you need proof?

Colossians 3 v 11-12;
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;


Is the elect the church? Yes or No

The tribulation is for the world but particularly the jews. It is also referred to as the time of Jacob's trouble. Christian tribulation is not what Jesus referred to and people often muddy things up. The tribulation that is coming is like nothing the world has ever seen.

Second, the church is currently the elect you are right, but the church will be raptured and the calender goes back to the Jewish calendar. Daniel's last week of 7 years. At that time, the elect will be the Jews. Read Romans 11:25-28 Paul says so. Isaiah prophesied it as well in Isaiah 11: 11-16. They also tell you who the remnant is like I said before.

Steep:
You are correct! The church would be removed and the last week of Daniel's prophecy would commence. The last week is for the jews, to restore them spiritually before Jesus comes.
The 7 years tribulation is not for the church but for Israel, for example the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel not the church as some erroneously think. When the remnant (144000) are saved a great number of non jews (gentiles) would be saved fulfilling what Paul said. That is in Revelation 7 immediately the 12000 from each tribe of Israel were saved a great number of Gentile were also saved too.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Exactly!!

Steep:
The rapture and the second coming of christ is not the same.
In the rapture the church will meet Jesus but in the second coming he comes with the church and send his angels to gather his elect.

I could not agree more but I wanted to gradually bring him to this point. Spot on.

OkCornel:
What do you call a group of people who keep God's commands and are steadfast in their testimony about Jesus Christ?

Today, the church but during the tribulation, John called them "saints" because the church had been raptured. The church age ends with the rapture.

Which brings me to the next poser, notice how the word church is used in Revelation from chapter 1-4 but then no mention of it all through the tribulation only to be reintroduced during the 2nd coming in chapter 19?

Why do you think John stopped referring to the people who believed in Jesus at the time the church?

OkCornel:
You missed something in verse 3. It says that day will not come (the coming of Christ for the church) until the lawless one is revealed and the temple defiled.

No you missed the context. Verse 6-7 precedes the man of sin being revealed. It says so.