Maestro21:


I don't want to veer off into the first resurrection because the first resurrection is not the rapture like people think. The rapture is for the CHURCH ALONE.

I said there are 2 trumps mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4. You say no but Paul refers to a last trump in 1 Corinthians 15 to which I asked, when was the first? You have to answer the first to see why the second was called the last.

How can they be two trumps when you mentioned earlier that 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 are the same event?

Maestro21:

No the believers who were ready and prepared for the rapture will not be here. Which is why Paul is admonishing them not to be troubled and to comfort their hearts with what he was revealing.

2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4 ties in perfectly with Revelation 12 when the rebellion occurs, and the Revelation 13 when the beast is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4;
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, FOR THAT DAY WILL NOT COME until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Revelation 12 v 17;
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.


Abi is Revelation 12 v 17 not also referring to the church?

Maestro21:


Yes the very same event. So you can use 1 Thessalonians 4 to match 1 Corinthians 15 and it will tie in perfectly without any contradiction.

I'll leave the 7th trumpet part for now as I want the discussion to be cohesive.

So if they are the same event, it is one trumpet sound required for this, not two. Paul was referring to only one trumpet sound blown.
That is the same trumpet which would be blown after the tribulation to gather the elect from all over as Jesus also explained in Matthew 24.

If 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 cannot be last trumpet referring to a pretribulation rapture if there would be another trumpet blown after the great tribulation in Matthew 24 v 29-31. That's the point I'm making here.

1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4 v 16-17, 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4, Revelation 12 v 17 and Matthew 24 v 29-31 clearly indicates the church will still be very much around when the great tribulation kicks off.

@Maestro21

Dictionary meaning of Trump;

trump noun (2)
Definition of trump (Entry 3 of 3)
1a: TRUMPET
bchiefly Scotland : JEW'S HARP
2: a sound of or as if of trumpeting
the trump of doom

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trump

Trump is either the Trumpet itself, or the sound from a Trumpet or Jew's Harp

Maestro21:


Of course he was referring to the church or else who was he referring to there?

Don't forget Paul kept showing a dichotomy. He said "we" "ye" in referring to the church and then "them", "they" etc in referring to the world.

Do you see it? Read the verses past verse 9-11 for instance.

Wait a minute, are you telling us Paul was referring to the church as the restrainer in verse 7 of 2 Thessalonians 2? When Paul clearly mentioned in verse 1 of the same chapter that the Jesus would not come for the church until the lawless one is revealed and the temple defiled?

OkCornel:


How can they be two trumps when you mentioned earlier that 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 are the same event?

Yes and both allude to 2 trumps. If 1 Corinthians 15 was not clear, 1 Thessalonians 4 made it clear.

My question to you is, what does the first trump announce before we can conclude what the 2nd trump was about?

Maestro21:


Yes and both allude to 2 trumps. If 1 Corinthians 15 was not clear, 1 Thessalonians 4 made it clear.

My question to you is, what does not the first trump announce before we can conclude what the 2nd trump was about?

You said they are the same event. It is only one trump (the last trump) that triggers this event. According to end time events, there is only the 7 judgment trumpets and the last trumpet which triggers the first resurrection.


How can the same event be triggered by two separate trumps?

OkCornel:


2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4 ties in perfectly with Revelation 12 when the rebellion occurs, and the Revelation 13 when the beast is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4;
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, FOR THAT DAY WILL NOT COME until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Revelation 12 v 17;
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.


Abi is Revelation 12 v 17 not also referring to the church?

No it does not at all.

I warned about some translations with Bible prophecy because some of them are completely flat out false. That word is apostasy. The rebellion is apostasy. Many Christians will deny their faith. That is what 2 Thessalonians is referring to.

Revelation 12 v 17 is completely unrelated. The woman is Israel. In verse 5 the manchild (Christ - which refers to Jesus and his church), was raptured from the world. In anger and realizing his time to inflict pain was shortened and he missed the chance to get them, deciding to focus on the REMNANTS of the the woman's seed.

You cannot have a remnant church. Remnants always referred to Israelites that remained after Israel had suffered persecution, war, capture etc. Every single verse in Chapter 12 shows this clearly.

Conclusively, during the great tribulation, many jews will believe in Jesus Christ because of the preaching of the 144K. They are the people being referred to in verse 17.

OkCornel:


So if they are the same event, it is one trumpet sound required for this, not two. Paul was referring to only one trumpet sound blown.
That is the same trumpet which would be blown after the tribulation to gather the elect from all over as Jesus also explained in Matthew 24.

If 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 cannot be last trumpet referring to a pretribulation rapture if there would be another trumpet blown after the great tribulation in Matthew 24 v 29-31. That's the point I'm making here.

1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4 v 16-17, 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4, Revelation 12 v 17 and Matthew 24 v 29-31 clearly indicates the church will still be very much around when the great tribulation kicks off.

You just skipped past the fact that Paul called it a last trump. You cannot refer to "last" if there was only one. So that shows you a gap in your theology. You have to know and then answer the question about the first trump because it will show you why Paul referred to the second trump as the last.

OkCornel:
@Maestro21

Dictionary meaning of Trump;

trump noun (2)
Definition of trump (Entry 3 of 3)
1a: TRUMPET
bchiefly Scotland : JEW'S HARP
2: a sound of or as if of trumpeting
the trump of doom

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trump

Trump is either the Trumpet itself, or the sound from a Trumpet or Jew's Harp

Yes but Trump and Trumpet are not the same. Trumpets, trump. Using Trump to refer to trumpet can only then be determined by the context which is what I have tried to show you from the beginning.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first resurrection took place over 1,000years ago. They resurrected, and then proceeded to rule the earth for 1000years circa 500AD to 1500AD. When the millennium rule ended, they were sealed or raptured meaning that God hid them inside himself as the devil was released from the bottomless pit circa 1500AD to go and deceive the whole earth, and he has indeed done a good job of deceit and deception. Or how do you explain the fact that people actually DO NOT actually want Jesus to return? The devil has brainwashed them.

So this people who are part of the first resurrection are now sealed and protected from any shenanigans of the devil and his useless toothless and hopeless dogs.

We are now only waiting for the third fruit to be raptured at the coming of Jesus, and the whole world will be turned into a paradise forever.

https://www.nairaland.com/7028779/seven-seals-four-horsemen-apocalypse

Maestro21:


No it does not at all.

I warned about some translations with Bible prophecy because some of them are completely flat out false. That word is apostasy. The rebellion is apostasy. Many Christians will deny their faith. That is what 2 Thessalonians is referring to.

Revelation 12 v 17 is completely unrelated. The woman is Israel. In verse 5 the manchild (Christ - which refers to Jesus and his church), was raptured from the world. In anger and realizing his time to inflict pain was shortened and he missed the chance to get them, deciding to focus on the REMNANTS of the the woman's seed.

You cannot have a remnant church. Remnants always referred to Israelites that remained after Israel had suffered persecution, war, capture etc. Every single verse in Chapter 12 shows this clearly.

Conclusively, during the great tribulation, many jews will believe in Jesus Christ because of the preaching of the 144K. They are the people being referred to in verse 17.

Two things

Revelation 12 v 5 clearly relates to one person who would rule the world with an iron scepter
She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

You can't interpret the male child to mean the church being raptured.

Because the church is still very much around in Revelation 12 v 17;
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

OkCornel:


Wait a minute, are you telling us Paul was referring to the church as the restrainer in verse 7 of 2 Thessalonians 2? When Paul clearly mentioned in verse 1 of the same chapter that the Jesus would not come for the church until the lawless one is revealed and the temple defiled?

Yes the church is the restrainer and no Paul did not say Jesus will not come for the church until the man of sin is revealed.

Paul starts verse 1 by saying he wants to share some information concerning the gathering of saints (rapture) and the coming of the lord (2nd coming). They are not the same events which is what I wanted to prove to you.

Since the rapture happens before the 2nd coming, Paul aims to address what must happen before both events.

Maestro21:


Yes but Trump and Trumpet are not the same. Trumpets, trump. Using Trump to refer to trumpet can only then be determined by the context which is what I have tried to show you from the beginning.

Please consult the dictionary. Trump and Trumpet can be used interchangeably

OkCornel:


Two things

Revelation 12 v 5 clearly relates to one person who would rule the world with an iron scepter
She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

You can't interpret the male child to mean the church being raptured.

Because the church is still very much around in Revelation 12 v 17;
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

The man child is christ. Christ refers to Jesus (head) and his church (his body).

OkCornel:


Please consult the dictionary. Trump and Trumpet can be used interchangeably

Just like brother and sibling can be used interchangeably yet only the context will truly define if the brother being used is literal brother (like sibling) or if it is being used in a more generic sense. Like I can refer to a fellow Nigerian as a brother even though they are not my biological brother.

Context is key.

Maestro21:


Yes the church is the restrainer and no Paul did not say Jesus will not come for the church until the man of sin is revealed.

Paul starts verse 1 by saying he wants to share some information concerning the gathering of saints (rapture) and the coming of the lord (2nd coming). They are not the same events which is what I wanted to prove to you.

Since the rapture happens before the 2nd coming, Paul aims to address what must happen before both events.

How can the church be the restrainer when Paul clearly mentioned in verse 1 that Jesus would not come to gather the saints until the rebellion occurs, the Lawless One is revealed and God's temple defiled in verse 2 -4 of that same chapter?

take note of the bolded verses and texts in CAPS too;

2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4;
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, FOR THAT DAY WILL NOT COME until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Maestro21:


The man child is christ. Christ refers to Jesus (head) and his church (his body).

One person (not an organisation), would rule the nation with a rod of iron. Context is key.

So the people in Revelation 12 v 17 who keep God's commandments and are faithful to their testimony about Jesus? Are they not believers? are they not the church? Hmmm?

OkCornel:


How can the church be the restrainer when Paul clearly mentioned in verse 1 that Jesus would not come to gather the saints until the rebellion occurs, the Lawless One is revealed and God's temple defiled in verse 2 -4 of that same chapter?

take note of the bolded verses and texts in CAPS too;

2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4;
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, FOR THAT DAY WILL NOT COME until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

That is why I told you to also read verse 7 and 8.

Paul says something must happen before the gathering of saints (rapture) and the coming of the lord (2nd advent).

1. An apostasy. (Verse 3)
2. The removal of the restrainer (verse 6-7) (RAPTURE)


3. Man of sin revealed
4. 2nd adventure or coming of the lord.

Maestro21:


Just like brother and sibling can be used interchangeably yet only the context will truly define if the brother being used is literal brother (like sibling) or if it is being used in a more generic sense. Like I can refer to a fellow Nigerian as a brother even though they are not my biological brother.

Context is key.

And looking at the broader context, all the scriptures talks about sounds coming from the trumpet (aka Trump). I see no point separating the sound from the instrument. It's still one and the same thing.

Maestro21:


That is why I told you to also read verse 7 and 8.

Paul says something must happen before the gathering of saints (rapture) and the coming of the lord (2nd advent).

1. An apostasy. (Verse 3)
2. The removal of the restrainer (verse 6-7) (RAPTURE)


3. Man of sin revealed
4. 2nd adventure or coming of the lord.

You missed something in verse 3. It says that day will not come (the coming of Christ for the church) until the lawless one is revealed and the temple defiled.

OkCornel:


One person (not an organisation), would rule the nation with a rod of iron. Context is key.

So the people in Revelation 12 v 17 who keep God's commandments and are faithful to their testimony about Jesus? Are they not believers? are they not the church? Hmmm?

They are not the church. They are called tribulation saints because they are the ones who believed in Jesus during the tribulation or maybe lukewarm Christians who became serious because they missed the rapture.

Jesus already said in Revelation 2:26-27 that he will give the church the rod of iron to rule with him. The church wields the same authority with the head.

Maestro21:


They are not the church. They are called tribulation saints because they are the ones who believed in Jesus during the tribulation or maybe lukewarm Christians who became serious because they missed the rapture.

Jesus already said in Revelation 2:26-27 that he will give the church the rod of iron to rule with him. The church wields the same authority with the head.

What do you call a group of people who keep God's commands and are steadfast in their testimony about Jesus Christ?

OkCornel:


And looking at the broader context, all the scriptures talks about sounds coming from the trumpet (aka Trump). I see no point separating the sound from the instrument. It's still one and the same thing.

It is not because I am trying to show the disparity between Revelation 8 that refers to the Trumpets during the tribulation (which nobody on earth was hearing by the way) compared to the trump sounds that will be used to initiate the rapture.

OkCornel:


You missed something in verse 3. It says that day will not come (the coming of Christ for the church) until the lawless one is revealed and the temple defiled.

No you missed the context. Verse 6-7 precedes the man of sin being revealed. It says so.

OkCornel:


What do you call a group of people who keep God's commands and are steadfast in their testimony about Jesus Christ?

Today, the church but during the tribulation, John called them "saints" because the church had been raptured. The church age ends with the rapture.

Which brings me to the next poser, notice how the word church is used in Revelation from chapter 1-4 but then no mention of it all through the tribulation only to be reintroduced during the 2nd coming in chapter 19?

Why do you think John stopped referring to the people who believed in Jesus at the time the church?

OkCornel:


2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4 ties in perfectly with Revelation 12 when the rebellion occurs, and the Revelation 13 when the beast is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4;
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, FOR THAT DAY WILL NOT COME until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Revelation 12 v 17;
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.


Abi is Revelation 12 v 17 not also referring to the church?

The rapture and the second coming of christ is not the same.
In the rapture the church will meet Jesus but in the second coming he comes with the church and send his angels to gather his elect.

The day of christ and the day of the Lord are not the same.
The day of the Lord begins at the rapture and till the 1000 years reign of christ while the day of christ refers to period when christ will return and govern the earth.

Steep:

The rapture and the second coming of christ is not the same.
In the rapture the church will meet Jesus but in the second coming he comes with the church and send his angels to gather his elect.

I could not agree more but I wanted to gradually bring him to this point. Spot on.

Maestro21:


Today, the church but during the tribulation, John called them "saints" because the church had been raptured. The church age ends with the rapture.

Which brings me to the next poser, notice how the word church is used in Revelation from chapter 1-4 but then no mention of it all through the tribulation only to be reintroduced during the 2nd coming in chapter 19?

Why do you think John stopped referring to the people who believed in Jesus at the time the church?

You are correct! The church would be removed and the last week of Daniel's prophecy would commence. The last week is for the jews, to restore them spiritually before Jesus comes.
The 7 years tribulation is not for the church but for Israel, for example the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel not the church as some erroneously think. When the remnant (144000) are saved a great number of non jews (gentiles) would be saved fulfilling what Paul said. That is in Revelation 7 immediately the 12000 from each tribe of Israel were saved a great number of Gentile were also saved too.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Maestro21:


Today, the church but during the tribulation, John called them "saints" because the church had been raptured. The church age ends with the rapture.

Which brings me to the next poser, notice how the word church is used in Revelation from chapter 1-4 but then no mention of it all through the tribulation only to be reintroduced during the 2nd coming in chapter 19?

Why do you think John stopped referring to the people who believed in Jesus at the time the church?

The tribulation of the church has been ongoing since the era of the Roman empire. That has not changed.

And to your poser, the church will always be there during the great tribulation even though the word "church" was not used by John between Chapter 5 to Chapter 18 of Revelation.

Take note of this, after the tribulation of those days, Jesus mentioned He and His angels will gather the elect from the entire earth - Matthew 24 v 29-31

Who are the elect? The elect is the church. Do you need proof?

Colossians 3 v 11-12;
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;


Is the elect the church? Yes or No

Steep:

The rapture and the second coming of christ is not the same.
In the rapture the church will meet Jesus but in the second coming he comes with the church and send his angels to gather his elect.

The day of christ and the day of the Lord are not the same.
The day of the Lord begins at the rapture and till the 1000 years reign of christ while the day of christ refers to period when christ will return and govern the earth.

Regarding the end times, how many resurrections do we have in the scripture?

Steep:


You are correct! The church would be removed and the last week of Daniel's prophecy would commence. The last week is for the jews, to restore them spiritually before Jesus comes.
The 7 years tribulation is not for the church but for Israel, for example the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel not the church as some erroneously think. When the remnant (144000) are saved a great number of non jews (gentiles) would be saved fulfilling what Paul said. That is in Revelation 7 immediately the 12000 from each tribe of Israel were saved a great number of Gentile were also saved too.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Exactly!!