₦airaland Forum

johnydon22:
Lol if i tell you i understand this, then i am lying

[size=20]This argument ended when you stated an atom is self existent (self existence meaning was or exists without any other cause) then you turn around say god can cause the atom. which is contradictory to ur first statement on atoms... If you throw in a god into the equation again then i can as well continue asserting that this your god cannot be self existent it must need a god thereby re-igniting the chain of infinite regress[/size]

"Not all the mass of the universe is composed of atoms. Dark matter comprises more of
the Universe than matter, and is composed not of atoms, but of particles of a currently
unknown type." http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom

Weah96:
If you talk to your God and he talks back, what's the point of providing such a convoluted answer? There should be an easier way of demonstrating his existence.

Faith

joviegghead:
it's simple. God knows the future. That was why he told adam and eve the repercussions of eating or not eating the fruit. In addition,God gave dem the opportunity to choose. Simply put,God can look into the future,but limits his use of it because doing so will mean encroaching d gift of free will. It will also mean God is wicked.it's like a father who knows&sees his children get hurt,but does nothing when he his infact the one who put them in that situation. If God were also to interfere,it will mean he's controlling them. So,to avoid tampering with his gift of free will,he simply and lovingly gave all his creatures,like adam and eve,laws and principles along with the repercussions for following or rejecting them.so it was left for adam and eve to choose. Whatever was to be their choice in the future was never looked into by God because doing so will mean he knows their action and never stopped them-making him wicked and uncaring. And if he stopped them- it would mean God was controlling them when tHey should be the one making decisions for themselves cuz they,aren't robots but humans with the right to choose.

This was my view before until I read this article online. Then, I thought that for God to have infinite power, He has to have power over His thoughts, to choose which one to know and not, but consider Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this
condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and
denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

johnydon22:
Lol if i tell you i understand this, then i am lying

[size=20]This argument ended when you stated an atom is self existent (self existence meaning was or exists without any other cause) then you turn around say god can cause the atom. which is contradictory to ur first statement on atoms... If you throw in a god into the equation again then i can as well continue asserting that this your god cannot be self existent it must need a god thereby re-igniting the chain of infinite regress[/size]

Every chain has its apex, Physical is below Spiritual. Where the ability of the physical ends, that of spiritual begins. That atom can be created by the more intelligent and powerful spiritual realm, doesn't mean Spiritual can be created by the physical. Also atom is only for purpose of explanation to counter infinite sources, not that it's a perfect illustration as there are a lot of things without atom.

Rilwon:
www.nairaland.com/attachments/2245369_tanoids_jpege574fdedcba5039cee8d1b3a7047284a

Never rush to conclusion.

johnydon22:
You see, you always contradict yourself then jump from that argument to another..

You just stated that the atom is self existent and now contradicts yourself by saying God can create it..lolzz..

Why not just leave the argument there since you just brought it to an end with your statement that atom is self existent.

For the universe being designed or not, please go and read about the universe and how it works then take on that topic with people that believes in big bang and trash it out them with them.

If i am to take you on that discussion then i will have to be dabble into arguing how the universe came to be when i have stated that i dont know.

If I say something has no solution, that doesn't mean there is no solution outside my knowledge and human possibilities (spiritual, which you are failing to exploit), that is what I said. Though atom is self existent, it is obvious it can be sourced out from Higher power, without controversy. Then we need to compare life from atom(interestingly enough, not everything in the universe has an atom!) with life from an Everlasting God (non intelligent and intelligent) i.e Life from God and atom, requiring only a Yes or No.

This is who the crown fits. This is what is called women group, not half baked selfish illiterates.




Note: I don't have a political party, my posts testify, 4 years ago, I had high hopes on GEJ, he agonizingly fell short, he's now using gender, tribal, religious card, coupled with blackmail, that is why I want CHANGE.

johnydon22:
Bro, you have just finished your argument with the bolded... You have just confirmed the universe was self existence because atoms are a form of energy and not an entity, and speaking from your own aspect the atom caused the universe which means that the materials for the universe is the atom which is self existent meaning the universe is self existent.

But this you feeble attempt to identify atom as your god is very laughable.
(its like proton is Yahweh, neutron is Jesus and Electron is holy spirit) LMAO pardon me but i had to laugh

Call an atom what ever you like, it doesnt change the fact that an atom is not an entity or a deity.. This your assertion is very ridiculous and your fellow theists will attack you when they see this..

Hmm. That was a fast one . I didn't call God atom {far be it from me} , I only likened THEM to the properties of atom. Though atom has no human known source, it is not impossible for God to create it. This leads us to intelligent design. Is the universe intelligent or not?

johnydon22:
I am an atheist because i lack belief in any God. and thats the only thing atheism means nothing more..

Lol actually on the contrary, I maintain i do not know when i lack the knowledge but you believe that the world came to be out of nothing only that it comes in a more finer wear..

First your argument on first cause states that something can't come out of nothing. Very good.

But then again you believe your god just started existing on its own without needing to be created, that is failing in your own argument.

Let me say i agree with you that something can't come out of nothing, it means your god being existent on his own contradicts your argument. It must have a cause, another god i suppose and that other god must also have another god resulting in a chain of infinite regress. So you see you failed in your own argument by believing your god existed from nothing.

Secondly, As a creationist you believe the universe was created with words (is not material so its nothing) from this your god that still yet popped out of nothing.
He said the word and the universe magically popped out from nothing thereby you still failed in your own argument...

So now do you see the difference between you and i? You think the universe popped out from nothing (a word) said by a god that popped out of nothing (self existent) but i on the other hand say [size=20] I do not know how the universe started[/size]

When I started SSS, my science teacher taught me about atoms, he said that a piece of yam is sliced until it gets to a point where it is indivisible, then I thought in my mind, why can't we divide the whole atom into two, divide again, again and again. It puzzled me until I heard of the atomic bomb. Yes, the atom (proton, neutron and electron [trinity]) can still be divided, but this time, it is not called division but destruction. Therefore, the atom is self existent since it is indivisible. So is God, THE HOLY TRINITY.

johnydon22:
Lol it means you have not been reading my posts because if you have you would noticed when i said this
Or do you want to force me to accept your ideology that the world came out of nothing?

Then it's not kinda right to be an atheist without having the fundamental and basic knowledge of your Faith (substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen). If then being a man who believes not in things without proof, I think then that it is right not to contradict your stance by remaining a theist till you have enough proof to back an earth from nothing (without GOD).

johnydon22:
Lol i came from my mother...

So funny that you are arguing against how the world came from nothing when you believe it did..

That means you came from something. Why then do you claim the universe came from nothing? Why then do you argue the universe has no source (which MUST be called God)?

johnydon22:
First i have not argued with you that the earth popped out of nothing, i made my stance clear to you that "I do not know" or claim to know how the world or universe came to be.. "I opened my eyes and saw the world just like you did, so i dont claim to possess such knowledge..

You on the other hand still like those atheists you pointed out believes the earth popped out of nothing..

You won't run away from this. Did you come from something or Nothing?

johnydon22:
Good those atheists aired their opinion, its theirs and none of my business. . atheists do not have one common doctrine, being an atheist doesnt mean believing big bang or evolution it only entails [size=20] Disbelief in God(s) [/size] . . . so that right there is their opinion most atheist just say we dont know

anything else?

Whether you believe in God or not, the earth didn't jump from somewhere, it had a beginning, don't shy away from this.

P.S. I've just followed you, follow back.

johnydon22:
Firstly i do not claim possess any knowledge of how the world started because i opened my eyes and saw the world.. Most atheist say "We dont know".

Now can you tell me what you mean by atheist say the world started from nothing? Throw more light to that statement.. I actually love this turn you have taken our discussion

That's cumbersome, but let me quote you a post " Atheists argue that life popped out of nothing, therefore God is not needed in the
equation. They are quick at using M and B word. They say Earth is billions of years old
and man is millions of years old and evolved from tiny organisms. They have refused to
give us detailed reasons why it took so long and every process man took, if possible
catalyze the whole process, subsequently giving us a human being .
Let me use the experiment that Galileo Galilei used to stun the entire world of science;
the experiment that every object falls at same rate when air resistance is absent. To do
this, we have to pump out the air to give us a vacuum (though logic tells us the vacuum
is something, the absence of air molecules gives us a perfect example of nothing since
we are only concerned about the air molecules and its emptiness.)
Through this experiment, we see that for nothing(absence of air molecules) to exist,
something must have triggered it. What if we want to get our air molecules back(a very
important component of life itself)? Should we wait for a few days, months, years or
centuries for air molecules to pop out of nothing? A sane mind will realise that
something can't come out of nothing but nothing can come out of something. This proof
singlehandedly shows that the genesis of the 'faith' of atheists is shaky.
Since its now being proofed that life started from something and not nothing (even
nothing must come from something,) we can then try to highlight the properties and
characteristics this something must possess:
1) Must be called God because everything was created by him because without him was
anything made that was made.
2) He must be infinite because he is infinity, he came from infinity, therefore he has no
source, neither can he have an end because he is infinite.
3) He must be all powerful and infinitely intelligent. The works of his hands are sufficient
proof.
4) He must possess properties beyond normal, properties beyond our wisdom e.g an
invisible Spirit. People will wish to argue this one but Hebrews 11:3 says: Through faith,
we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that "things which are
seen are not made of things which do appear". This applies to everything in the universe,
including you and this knowledge is applied in the making of televisions and phones."

johnydon22:
And now since we are delving into a different issue all together i would like you to come out clearly and say what exactly you mean?

I actually wanted to catch you on the break, but you were wise enough to ask, so as to have PERFECT KNOWLEDGE of what we are delving into. Atheists claim that the world started from nothing, so there is no need for God, hence my question. Can I now have my answer?

I have hope in you.

johnydon22:
Proof and plausibility and observable knowledge

That is brilliant of you. What then is provable, Something from nothing or Nothing from something?

johnydon22:
by all means do..

Do you base your thinking on proof?

johnydon22:
Lol they stated the obvious of what is not what is not..

But now this is YAHWEH you claim know what is not already before it is... You now see the difference?

Pls, can I ask you a question?

johnydon22:
they didnt predict, they merely stated the obvious. ..

the question still lingers..

[size=20] If god know everything you will do before creating you how is there freewill seeing that the knowledge was already there even before you were created and the foreknowledge can never be wrong [/size] That sir is predestination..

They stated the obvious because they had perfect knowledge, that was exactly what YAHWEH (if indeed I am worthy putting down this holy and righteous NAME) did. Caso cerrado!

johnydon22:
This is not foreknowledge.. Randy orton was already 42 before you find out he was 42 and this cannot be likened to actions.. You could have said the man knew how exactly how many punches Randy would throw in a certain future match.
That you found another cube and call it 6 doesnt mean it is exactly the cube you misplaced.. Am wondering how you want to liken this to foreknoweldge

I know they are not foreknowledge, I never meant them to be, but before you can have foreknowledge, you have to have perfect knowledge, that is what the illustration is all about. Now that the persons had perfect knowledge of things, their ability to predict the outcome was a 100%; a walk over.

johnydon22:
none of them have been answered.. not even one, you just go on in contradicting circles..

Lol... Now check this out let me paint a clear picture.

[size=20] Before he created you, he already know exactly everything you will do. then knowing this he created you and all your actions already been known before you were even created that can never be wrong must go according to that fore-knowledge. You must do do exactly what he already fore-knew, going contrary to this will mean he was wrong but he cant be wrong... tell me where the freewill is here?[/size]

OK. It is like a man who knows Randy Orton is 42 years old, his friend then challenges him to betting his age, can he ever be wrong? Also, you have ten cubes numbered from 0 to 9, you misplaced the sixth one, can you ever be wrong if you find a cube and call it 6? All things being equal. It doesn't mean you made it so, it only means you have a perfect knowledge of it.

johnydon22:
That i know exactly what you do tomorrow doesnt mean you cannot do otherwise..
Since your are free to do all you want you can do contrary to what i know and it turns out my fore-knowledge was wrong. (mind you i didnt claim to have created you, if i created you and at the same time know exactly what you will do means i also created those actions in the process of creating you)

I wish you can read my post again and you'll know all but one hasn't been answered. As for the intelligent question in the bracket, you'll definitely have been right but for the fact that we were given freewill, removing the guilt from our Creator, who though knew the result of our creation, never was responsible for our actions.

johnydon22:
Exactly what am talking about.. If he knows exactly what you will do (and you cannot do the contrary) is that really freewill?

Because you know exactly what I will do tomorrow, does that mean I lost my will of thought and action? It only means that you have extraordinary talent in dissipating my moves though the probability is very minute among the pools of probabilities.

johnydon22:
how can they be freewill when all your actions have already been fore-planned?

It is foreknown, not fore planned.

Good move.

johnydon22:
The dog may decide not to eat the rat (freewill) and the lion is not 100% sure the dog will eat the rat, even if he is sure the dog can still choose not to their by the lion is wrong.
what i want to hear from you is.

[size=20] Does god know what we will do before we do them? [/size] Yes or No?

I am not talking about freewill but its preservation.

johnydon22:
The dog may decide not to eat the rat (freewill) and the lion is not 100% sure the dog will eat the rat, even if he is sure the dog can still choose not to their by the lion is wrong.
what i want to hear from you is.

[size=20] Does god know what we will do before we do them? [/size] Yes or No?

This argument makes no sense if He doesn't or what exactly have we been discussing?

johnydon22:
Lol... You see, you dont even really understand what is it you have been yapping all day long.. You move from asserting that he knows everything and anything anybody will do here

now as our questions progressed you abandoned that idea and adopted that he bends his will to whatever man does..here
which one is it exactly?

Does he know what we will do before we do them, which means he already planned everything.. both your good and bad actions?

or

He doesnt know but bend his his own will to ours. which means he didnt plan anything or fore-knows anything we do but reconciles everything we choose to his own will?

You still don't make any sense at all, just dribble around contradictions thats all..

OK. A better example is a lion who wants to eat a rat and dog at the same time and sees that the dog is after the rat, therefore, he allowed the dog to have its will, he then ran after the dog, pounced on it and ate it. The will of the dog was preserved, so was his.

I love posts like this, just read the bolded part and rush out of thread . Nice post anyways.

ifeomaekol:
maybe not but believe me when I tell you that the kind of treatment these private universities give out to their students has an adverse effect on them when they graduate.

Is this a good move to you? To me, it is good. [size=17] Most evil are done in secret.[/size]

johnydon22:
but this doesnt mean Buhari know what atiku will do before he does it...gerrit it now?

So now i take it you mean god doesn't know what we will do or fore-planned it.. he bends his own will to suite our decisions right?

Job 28:12 But where shall wisdom be found? and where is the place of understanding?