CAPTIVATOR:


Johny , I must say I admire ur intelligence so much ... Have been followin ur discussion from page 0 with that religious guy ! But ur points are very valid .

If God know that Adam and Eve would sin, then their freewil is tampered with . Exactly, and that will mean they are not different from programmed robots .

But if on the other hand , God have the power to know .. But use self - control (one of his vital attributes) from knowing such, then the freewill is not tampered with. (comp. Gen)

So the God doesn't know, until he types the name of the person in his own Google search box? Then the bible should have said so. Maybe the devil is trying to steal that computer database that the God uses for his investigation.

johnydon22:
I am an atheist because i lack belief in any God. and thats the only thing atheism means nothing more..

Lol actually on the contrary, I maintain i do not know when i lack the knowledge but you believe that the world came to be out of nothing only that it comes in a more finer wear..

First your argument on first cause states that something can't come out of nothing. Very good.

But then again you believe your god just started existing on its own without needing to be created, that is failing in your own argument.

Let me say i agree with you that something can't come out of nothing, it means your god being existent on his own contradicts your argument. It must have a cause, another god i suppose and that other god must also have another god resulting in a chain of infinite regress. So you see you failed in your own argument by believing your god existed from nothing.

Secondly, As a creationist you believe the universe was created with words (is not material so its nothing) from this your god that still yet popped out of nothing.
He said the word and the universe magically popped out from nothing thereby you still failed in your own argument...

So now do you see the difference between you and i? You think the universe popped out from nothing (a word) said by a god that popped out of nothing (self existent) but i on the other hand say [size=20] I do not know how the universe started[/size]

When I started SSS, my science teacher taught me about atoms, he said that a piece of yam is sliced until it gets to a point where it is indivisible, then I thought in my mind, why can't we divide the whole atom into two, divide again, again and again. It puzzled me until I heard of the atomic bomb. Yes, the atom (proton, neutron and electron [trinity]) can still be divided, but this time, it is not called division but destruction. Therefore, the atom is self existent since it is indivisible. So is God, THE HOLY TRINITY.

Misogynist2014:
When I started SSS, my science teacher taught me about atoms, he said that a piece of yam is sliced until it gets to a point where it is indivisible, then I thought in my mind, why can't we divide the whole atom into two, divide again, again and again. It puzzled me until I heard of the atomic bomb. Yes, the atom (proton, neutron and electron [trinity]) can still be divided, but this time, it is not called division but destruction. Therefore, the atom is self existent since it is indivisible. So is God, THE HOLY TRINITY.

Bro, you have just finished your argument with the bolded... You have just confirmed the universe was self existence because atoms are a form of energy and not an entity, and speaking from your own aspect the atom caused the universe which means that the materials for the universe is the atom which is self existent meaning the universe is self existent.

But this you feeble attempt to identify atom as your god is very laughable.
(its like proton is Yahweh, neutron is Jesus and Electron is holy spirit) LMAO pardon me but i had to laugh

Call an atom what ever you like, it doesnt change the fact that an atom is not an entity or a deity.. This your assertion is very ridiculous and your fellow theists will attack you when they see this..

johnydon22:

Bro, you have just finished your argument with the bolded... You have just confirmed the universe was self existence because atoms are a form of energy and not an entity, and speaking from your own aspect the atom caused the universe which means that the materials for the universe is the atom which is self existent meaning the universe is self existent.

But this you feeble attempt to identify atom as your god is very laughable.
(its like proton is Yahweh, neutron is Jesus and Electron is holy spirit) LMAO pardon me but i had to laugh

Call an atom what ever you like, it doesnt change the fact that an atom is not an entity or a deity.. This your assertion is very ridiculous and your fellow theists will attack you when they see this..

Hmm. That was a fast one . I didn't call God atom {far be it from me} , I only likened THEM to the properties of atom. Though atom has no human known source, it is not impossible for God to create it. This leads us to intelligent design. Is the universe intelligent or not?

Misogynist2014:
This is a two-part question. The first part is “Did God know Satan would rebel and
Adam and Eve would sin?” The answer lies in what the Bible teaches about God’s
knowledge. We know from Scripture that God is omniscient, which literally means “all-
knowing.” Job 37:16 ; Psalm 139:2-4 , 147:5 ; Proverbs 5:21 ; Isaiah 46:9-10 ; and 1 John
3:19-20 leave no doubt that God’s knowledge is infinite and that He knows everything
that has happened in the past, is happening now, and will happen in the future.
Looking at some of the superlatives in these verses—“perfect in knowledge”; “his
understanding has no limit”; “he knows everything”—it is clear that God’s knowledge
is not merely greater than our own, but it is infinitely greater. He knows all things in
totality. Isaiah 46:10 declares He not only knows everything, but He controls
everything as well. How else could He “make known” to us what would happen in the
future and state unequivocally that His plans will come to pass? So, did God know
that Adam and Eve were going to sin? Did He know Lucifer would rebel against Him
and become Satan? Yes! Absolutely! Were they out of His control at any time?
Absolutely not. If God’s knowledge is not perfect, then there is a deficiency in His
nature. Any deficiency in God’s nature means He cannot be God, for God’s very
essence requires the perfection of all His attributes. Therefore, the answer to the first
question must, by necessity, be “yes.”
Moving on to the second part of the question, “Why did God create Satan and Adam
and Eve knowing ahead of time they were going to sin?” This question is a little
trickier because we are asking a “why” question to which the Bible does not usually
provide comprehensive answers. Despite that, we should be able to come to a limited
understanding if we examine some biblical passages. To begin, we have already seen
that God is omniscient and nothing can happen outside of His knowledge. So, if God
knew that Satan would rebel and fall from heaven and that Adam and Eve would sin,
yet He created them anyway, it must mean that the fall of mankind was part of God’s
sovereign plan from the beginning. No other answer makes sense given what we have
been saying thus far.
Now we must be careful to note that Adam and Eve falling into sin does not mean
that God is the author of sin, nor that he tempted Adam and Eve to sin (James 1:13 ).
The fall serves the purpose of God’s overall plan for creation and mankind. This,
again, must be the case, or else the fall of mankind would never have happened.
If we consider what some theologians call the "meta-narrative" (or overarching story
line) of Scripture, we see that biblical history can be roughly divided into three main
sections: 1) paradise (Genesis 1–2 ); 2) paradise lost (Genesis 3 – Revelation 20);
and 3) paradise regained ( Revelation 21–22 ). By far the largest part of the narrative
is devoted to moving from paradise lost to paradise regained. At the center of this
meta-narrative is the cross. The cross was planned from the very beginning ( Acts
2:23 ). It was foreknown and foreordained that Christ would go to the cross and give
His life as a ransom for many ( Matthew 20:28 )—those chosen by God’s foreknowledge
and predestined to be His people (Ephesians 1:4-5 ).
Reading Scripture very carefully and taking what has been said so far, we are led to
the following conclusions:
1. The rebellion of Satan and the fall of mankind were foreknown and foreordained by
God.
2. Those who would become the people of God, the elect, were foreknown and
foreordained by God.
3. The crucifixion of Christ, as atonement for God’s people, was foreknown and
foreordained by God.
So, we are left with the following questions: Why create mankind with the knowledge
of the fall? Why create mankind knowing that only some would be "saved?" Why send
Jesus knowingly to die for a people that knowingly fell into sin? From man’s
perspective, it does not make sense. If the meta-narrative moves from paradise, to
paradise lost, to paradise regained, why not just go straight to paradise regained and
avoid the whole paradise lost interlude?
The only conclusion we can come to, in view of the above assertions, is that God’s
purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness.
The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal
of everything He does. The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1 ),
and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23 ).
Our sin causes us to fall short of God’s glory ( Romans 3:23 ), and in the new heaven
and new earth, the glory of God is what will provide light (Revelation 21:23 ). The glory
of God is manifest when His attributes are on perfect display, and the story of
redemption is part of that.
The best place to see this in Scripture is Romans 9:19-24 . Wrath and mercy display
the riches of God’s glory, and you cannot get either without the fall of mankind.
Therefore, all of these actions—fall, election, redemption, atonement—serve the
purpose of glorifying God. When man fell into sin, God’s mercy was immediately
displayed in not killing him on the spot. God’s patience and forbearance were also on
display as mankind fell deeper into sin prior to the flood. God’s justice and wrath were
on display as He executed judgment during the flood, and God’s mercy and grace
were demonstrated as He saved Noah and his family. God’s wrath and justice will be
revealed in the future when He deals with Satan once and for all ( Revelation 20:7-10 ).
The ultimate exhibition of God’s glory was at the cross where His wrath, justice, and
mercy met. The righteous judgment of all sin was executed at the cross, and God’s
grace was on display in pouring His wrath for sin on His Son, Jesus, instead of on us.
God’s love and grace are on display in those whom He has saved ( John 3:16 ;
Ephesians 2:8-9 ). In the end, God will be glorified as His chosen people worship Him
for all eternity with the angels, and the wicked will also glorify God as His justice and
righteousness will finally be vindicated by the eternal punishment of all unrepentant
sinners (Philippians 2:11 ). None of this could have come to pass without the rebellion
of Satan and the fall of Adam and Eve.
The classic objection to this position is that God’s foreknowledge and foreordination
of the fall damages man’s freedom. In other words, if God created mankind with full
knowledge of the impending fall into sin, how can man be responsible for his sin? The
best answer to this question can be found in the Westminster Confession of Faith
chapter III:
“God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely,
and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God
the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty
or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established” (WFC, III.1)
What this is saying is that God ordains future events in such a way that our freedom
and the working of secondary causes (e.g., laws of nature) are preserved.
Theologians call this “concurrence.” God’s sovereign will flows concurrently with our
free choices in such a way that our free choices always result in the carrying out of
God’s will (by “free choices” we mean that our choices are not coerced by outside
influences).
To summarize, God knew that Satan would rebel and that Adam and Eve would sin in
the Garden of Eden. With that knowledge, God still created Lucifer and Adam and Eve
because creating them and ordaining the fall was part of His sovereign plan to
manifest His glory in all its fullness. Even though the fall was foreknown and
foreordained, our freedom in making choices is not violated because our free choices
are the means by which God’s will is carried out.
With Ifeness Seun Kay17 Davien Xcapizt Cold e.t.c.

it's simple. God knows the future. That was why he told adam and eve the repercussions of eating or not eating the fruit. In addition,God gave dem the opportunity to choose. Simply put,God can look into the future,but limits his use of it because doing so will mean encroaching d gift of free will. It will also mean God is wicked.it's like a father who knows&sees his children get hurt,but does nothing when he his infact the one who put them in that situation. If God were also to interfere,it will mean he's controlling them. So,to avoid tampering with his gift of free will,he simply and lovingly gave all his creatures,like adam and eve,laws and principles along with the repercussions for following or rejecting them.so it was left for adam and eve to choose. Whatever was to be their choice in the future was never looked into by God because doing so will mean he knows their action and never stopped them-making him wicked and uncaring. And if he stopped them- it would mean God was controlling them when tHey should be the one making decisions for themselves cuz they,aren't robots but humans with the right to choose.

Misogynist2014:
Hmm. That was a fast one . I didn't call God atom {far be it from me} , I only likened THEM to the properties of atom. Though atom has no human known source, it is not impossible for God to create it. This leads us to intelligent design. Is the universe intelligent or not?

You see, you always contradict yourself then jump from that argument to another..

You just stated that the atom is self existent and now contradicts yourself by saying God can create it..lolzz..

Why not just leave the argument there since you just brought it to an end with your statement that atom is self existent.

For the universe being designed or not, please go and read about the universe and how it works then take on that topic with people that believes in big bang and trash it out them with them.

If i am to take you on that discussion then i will have to be dabble into arguing how the universe came to be when i have stated that i dont know.

joviegghead:
it's simple. God knows the future. That was why he told adam and eve the repercussions of eating or not eating the fruit. In addition,God gave dem the opportunity to choose. Simply put,God can look into the future,but limits his use of it because doing so will mean encroaching d gift of free will. It will also mean God is wicked.it's like a father who knows&sees his children get hurt,but does nothing when he his infact the one who put them in that situation. If God were also to interfere,it will mean he's controlling them. So,to avoid tampering with his gift of free will,he simply and lovingly gave all his creatures,like adam and eve,laws and principles along with the repercussions for following or rejecting them.so it was left for adam and eve to choose. Whatever was to be their choice in the future was never looked into by God because doing so will mean he knows their action and never stopped them-making him wicked and uncaring. And if he stopped them- it would mean God was controlling them when tHey should be the one making decisions for themselves cuz they,aren't robots but humans with the right to choose.

So the God is like a child with a smartphone and a Google browser. Where does he keep the database that has all the information? Please don't tell me that it's in his head.

johnydon22:


You see, you always contradict yourself then jump from that argument to another..

You just stated that the atom is self existent and now contradicts yourself by saying God can create it..lolzz..

Why not just leave the argument there since you just brought it to an end with your statement that atom is self existent.

For the universe being designed or not, please go and read about the universe and how it works then take on that topic with people that believes in big bang and trash it out them with them.

If i am to take you on that discussion then i will have to be dabble into arguing how the universe came to be when i have stated that i dont know.

If I say something has no solution, that doesn't mean there is no solution outside my knowledge and human possibilities (spiritual, which you are failing to exploit), that is what I said. Though atom is self existent, it is obvious it can be sourced out from Higher power, without controversy. Then we need to compare life from atom(interestingly enough, not everything in the universe has an atom!) with life from an Everlasting God (non intelligent and intelligent) i.e Life from God and atom, requiring only a Yes or No.

Misogynist2014:
If I say something has no solution, that doesn't mean there is no solution outside my knowledge and human possibilities (spiritual, which you are failing to exploit), that is what I said. Though atom is self existent, it is obvious it can be sourced out from Higher power, without controversy. Then we need to compare life from atom(interestingly enough, not everything in the universe has an atom!) with life from an Everlasting God (non intelligent and intelligent) i.e Life from God and atom, requiring only a Yes or No.

Lol if i tell you i understand this, then i am lying

[size=20]This argument ended when you stated an atom is self existent (self existence meaning was or exists without any other cause) then you turn around say god can cause the atom. which is contradictory to ur first statement on atoms... If you throw in a god into the equation again then i can as well continue asserting that this your god cannot be self existent it must need a god thereby re-igniting the chain of infinite regress[/size]

Misogynist2014:
If I say something has no solution, that doesn't mean there is no solution outside my knowledge and human possibilities (spiritual, which you are failing to exploit), that is what I said. Though atom is self existent, it is obvious it can be sourced out from Higher power, without controversy. Then we need to compare life from atom(interestingly enough, not everything in the universe has an atom!) with life from an Everlasting God (non intelligent and intelligent) i.e Life from God and atom, requiring only a Yes or No.

If you talk to your God and he talks back, what's the point of providing such a convoluted answer? There should be an easier way of demonstrating his existence.

johnydon22:


Lol if i tell you i understand this, then i am lying

[size=20]This argument ended when you stated an atom is self existent (self existence meaning was or exists without any other cause) then you turn around say god can cause the atom. which is contradictory to ur first statement on atoms... If you throw in a god into the equation again then i can as well continue asserting that this your god cannot be self existent it must need a god thereby re-igniting the chain of infinite regress[/size]

Every chain has its apex, Physical is below Spiritual. Where the ability of the physical ends, that of spiritual begins. That atom can be created by the more intelligent and powerful spiritual realm, doesn't mean Spiritual can be created by the physical. Also atom is only for purpose of explanation to counter infinite sources, not that it's a perfect illustration as there are a lot of things without atom.

joviegghead:
it's simple. God knows the future. That was why he told adam and eve the repercussions of eating or not eating the fruit. In addition,God gave dem the opportunity to choose. Simply put,God can look into the future,but limits his use of it because doing so will mean encroaching d gift of free will. It will also mean God is wicked.it's like a father who knows&sees his children get hurt,but does nothing when he his infact the one who put them in that situation. If God were also to interfere,it will mean he's controlling them. So,to avoid tampering with his gift of free will,he simply and lovingly gave all his creatures,like adam and eve,laws and principles along with the repercussions for following or rejecting them.so it was left for adam and eve to choose. Whatever was to be their choice in the future was never looked into by God because doing so will mean he knows their action and never stopped them-making him wicked and uncaring. And if he stopped them- it would mean God was controlling them when tHey should be the one making decisions for themselves cuz they,aren't robots but humans with the right to choose.

This was my view before until I read this article online. Then, I thought that for God to have infinite power, He has to have power over His thoughts, to choose which one to know and not, but consider Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this
condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and
denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Weah96:


If you talk to your God and he talks back, what's the point of providing such a convoluted answer? There should be an easier way of demonstrating his existence.

Faith

johnydon22:


Lol if i tell you i understand this, then i am lying

[size=20]This argument ended when you stated an atom is self existent (self existence meaning was or exists without any other cause) then you turn around say god can cause the atom. which is contradictory to ur first statement on atoms... If you throw in a god into the equation again then i can as well continue asserting that this your god cannot be self existent it must need a god thereby re-igniting the chain of infinite regress[/size]

"Not all the mass of the universe is composed of atoms. Dark matter comprises more of
the Universe than matter, and is composed not of atoms, but of particles of a currently
unknown type." http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom

Misogynist2014:
This is a two-part question. The first part is “Did God know Satan would rebel and
Adam and Eve would sin?” The answer lies in what the Bible teaches about God’s
knowledge. We know from Scripture that God is omniscient, which literally means “all-
knowing.” Job 37:16 ; Psalm 139:2-4 , 147:5 ; Proverbs 5:21 ; Isaiah 46:9-10 ; and 1 John
3:19-20 leave no doubt that God’s knowledge is infinite and that He knows everything
that has happened in the past, is happening now, and will happen in the future.
Looking at some of the superlatives in these verses—“perfect in knowledge”; “his
understanding has no limit”; “he knows everything”—it is clear that God’s knowledge
is not merely greater than our own, but it is infinitely greater. He knows all things in
totality. Isaiah 46:10 declares He not only knows everything, but He controls
everything as well. How else could He “make known” to us what would happen in the
future and state unequivocally that His plans will come to pass? So, did God know
that Adam and Eve were going to sin? Did He know Lucifer would rebel against Him
and become Satan? Yes! Absolutely! Were they out of His control at any time?
Absolutely not. If God’s knowledge is not perfect, then there is a deficiency in His
nature. Any deficiency in God’s nature means He cannot be God, for God’s very
essence requires the perfection of all His attributes. Therefore, the answer to the first
question must, by necessity, be “yes.”
Moving on to the second part of the question, “Why did God create Satan and Adam
and Eve knowing ahead of time they were going to sin?” This question is a little
trickier because we are asking a “why” question to which the Bible does not usually
provide comprehensive answers. Despite that, we should be able to come to a limited
understanding if we examine some biblical passages. To begin, we have already seen
that God is omniscient and nothing can happen outside of His knowledge. So, if God
knew that Satan would rebel and fall from heaven and that Adam and Eve would sin,
yet He created them anyway, it must mean that the fall of mankind was part of God’s
sovereign plan from the beginning. No other answer makes sense given what we have
been saying thus far.
Now we must be careful to note that Adam and Eve falling into sin does not mean
that God is the author of sin, nor that he tempted Adam and Eve to sin (James 1:13 ).
The fall serves the purpose of God’s overall plan for creation and mankind. This,
again, must be the case, or else the fall of mankind would never have happened.
If we consider what some theologians call the "meta-narrative" (or overarching story
line) of Scripture, we see that biblical history can be roughly divided into three main
sections: 1) paradise (Genesis 1–2 ); 2) paradise lost (Genesis 3 – Revelation 20);
and 3) paradise regained ( Revelation 21–22 ). By far the largest part of the narrative
is devoted to moving from paradise lost to paradise regained. At the center of this
meta-narrative is the cross. The cross was planned from the very beginning ( Acts
2:23 ). It was foreknown and foreordained that Christ would go to the cross and give
His life as a ransom for many ( Matthew 20:28 )—those chosen by God’s foreknowledge
and predestined to be His people (Ephesians 1:4-5 ).
Reading Scripture very carefully and taking what has been said so far, we are led to
the following conclusions:
1. The rebellion of Satan and the fall of mankind were foreknown and foreordained by
God.
2. Those who would become the people of God, the elect, were foreknown and
foreordained by God.
3. The crucifixion of Christ, as atonement for God’s people, was foreknown and
foreordained by God.
So, we are left with the following questions: Why create mankind with the knowledge
of the fall? Why create mankind knowing that only some would be "saved?" Why send
Jesus knowingly to die for a people that knowingly fell into sin? From man’s
perspective, it does not make sense. If the meta-narrative moves from paradise, to
paradise lost, to paradise regained, why not just go straight to paradise regained and
avoid the whole paradise lost interlude?
The only conclusion we can come to, in view of the above assertions, is that God’s
purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness.
The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal
of everything He does. The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1 ),
and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23 ).
Our sin causes us to fall short of God’s glory ( Romans 3:23 ), and in the new heaven
and new earth, the glory of God is what will provide light (Revelation 21:23 ). The glory
of God is manifest when His attributes are on perfect display, and the story of
redemption is part of that.
The best place to see this in Scripture is Romans 9:19-24 . Wrath and mercy display
the riches of God’s glory, and you cannot get either without the fall of mankind.
Therefore, all of these actions—fall, election, redemption, atonement—serve the
purpose of glorifying God. When man fell into sin, God’s mercy was immediately
displayed in not killing him on the spot. God’s patience and forbearance were also on
display as mankind fell deeper into sin prior to the flood. God’s justice and wrath were
on display as He executed judgment during the flood, and God’s mercy and grace
were demonstrated as He saved Noah and his family. God’s wrath and justice will be
revealed in the future when He deals with Satan once and for all ( Revelation 20:7-10 ).
The ultimate exhibition of God’s glory was at the cross where His wrath, justice, and
mercy met. The righteous judgment of all sin was executed at the cross, and God’s
grace was on display in pouring His wrath for sin on His Son, Jesus, instead of on us.
God’s love and grace are on display in those whom He has saved ( John 3:16 ;
Ephesians 2:8-9 ). In the end, God will be glorified as His chosen people worship Him
for all eternity with the angels, and the wicked will also glorify God as His justice and
righteousness will finally be vindicated by the eternal punishment of all unrepentant
sinners (Philippians 2:11 ). None of this could have come to pass without the rebellion
of Satan and the fall of Adam and Eve.
The classic objection to this position is that God’s foreknowledge and foreordination
of the fall damages man’s freedom. In other words, if God created mankind with full
knowledge of the impending fall into sin, how can man be responsible for his sin? The
best answer to this question can be found in the Westminster Confession of Faith
chapter III:
“God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely,
and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God
the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty
or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established” (WFC, III.1)
What this is saying is that God ordains future events in such a way that our freedom
and the working of secondary causes (e.g., laws of nature) are preserved.
Theologians call this “concurrence.” God’s sovereign will flows concurrently with our
free choices in such a way that our free choices always result in the carrying out of
God’s will (by “free choices” we mean that our choices are not coerced by outside
influences).
To summarize, God knew that Satan would rebel and that Adam and Eve would sin in
the Garden of Eden. With that knowledge, God still created Lucifer and Adam and Eve
because creating them and ordaining the fall was part of His sovereign plan to
manifest His glory in all its fullness. Even though the fall was foreknown and
foreordained, our freedom in making choices is not violated because our free choices
are the means by which God’s will is carried out.
With Ifeness Seun Kay17 Davien Xcapizt Cold e.t.c.

Completely endorsed. About the greatest post I have read in Nairaland.

5solas:


Completely endorsed. About the greatest post I have read in Nairaland.

Seriously? Well that's about the most senseless ranting I have ever seen.

Well, read his conversation with Johnny and see how the intellingnt young man got him ranting and rambling. Johnny has succeeded in making a mess of the nonsense op.

You can see how mysoginist digressed from the topic just when he was connected. Now he is talking about something coming out of nothing like it matters or has anything to do with the op.

Who cares about how the universe.... Whn it is obvious that we are yet to know how it came about.

The fact is that if god knows I will eat rice in the morning and I don't eat rice, that's free will and God is not all knowing. But if God knows I will eat rice and I eat rice despite thinking it was my choice and having in mind that Gods foreknowledge can be wrong. Then that is not free will.

frank317:


Seriously? Well that's about the most senseless ranting I have ever seen.

Well, read his conversation with Johnny and see how the intellingnt young man got him ranting and rambling. Johnny has succeeded in making a mess of the nonsense op.

You can see how mysoginist digressed from the topic just when he was connected. Now he is talking about something coming out of nothing like it matters or has anything to do with the op.

Who cares about how the universe.... Whn it is obvious that we are yet to know how it came about.

The fact is that if god knows I will eat rice in the morning and I don't eat rice, that's free will and God is not all knowing. But if God knows I will eat rice and I eat rice despite thinking it was my choice and having in mind that Gods foreknowledge can be wrong. Then that is not free will.

I changed the argument after writing 'case closed' jonydon22 infamously ran out of the one sided competition.

@jonydon22 Reverting back to the original argument, due to the fact you innocently admitted having little knowledge of the diversion, I admit God can influence man's decisions but cannot change his freewill.

Me think that the fact that God has an infallible knowledge is the future is controlling enough.

GOD HAS GIVEN TO EVERY MAN THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE, HE DOESN'T CHANGE OUR FREE WILL BUT CAN INFLUENCE IT. HE DIDN'T CHANGE THE WILL OF ADAM AND HIS WIFE, NEITHER WAS SIN OFFERED BY HIM. HE HAS PERFECT KNOWLEDGE OF MAN'S LIFE AND GUARDS IT TO HIS OWN WILL.

ADAM WAS NOT COARSED INTO SIN BY GOD PLACING THE FRUIT IN THE GARDEN, NEITHER WAS TEMPTATION OFFERED BY HIM, BUT WAS GIVEN THE POWER OF CHOICE. THOUGH GOD KNEW THE RESULT, HE NEVER IN NO WAY INFLUENCED HIS CHOICE. GOD SENT JUDAS INTO THIS WORLD TO SERVE HIS WILL OF SENDING HIS HOLY SON, WHOSE COMING FORTH HAS BEEN FROM EVERLASTING. THIS IS ONE OF THE CASES OF HIS INFLUENCE ON MAN USING MAN WITHOUT DAMAGING HIS FREEDOM OF CHOICE.

frank317:
Me think that the fact that God has an infallible knowledge is the future is controlling enough.

Yes, God has the knowledge of future and guards it to His own will, without damaging man's freewill.

Misogynist2014:
This is a two-part question. The first part is “Did God know Satan would rebel and
Adam and Eve would sin?” The answer lies in what the Bible teaches about God’s
knowledge. We know from Scripture that God is omniscient, which literally means “all-
knowing.” Job 37:16 ; Psalm 139:2-4 , 147:5 ; Proverbs 5:21 ; Isaiah 46:9-10 ; and 1 John
3:19-20 leave no doubt that God’s knowledge is infinite and that He knows everything
that has happened in the past, is happening now, and will happen in the future.
Looking at some of the superlatives in these verses—“perfect in knowledge”; “his
understanding has no limit”; “he knows everything”—it is clear that God’s knowledge
is not merely greater than our own, but it is infinitely greater. He knows all things in
totality. Isaiah 46:10 declares He not only knows everything, but He controls
everything as well. How else could He “make known” to us what would happen in the
future and state unequivocally that His plans will come to pass? So, did God know
that Adam and Eve were going to sin? Did He know Lucifer would rebel against Him
and become Satan? Yes! Absolutely! Were they out of His control at any time?
Absolutely not. If God’s knowledge is not perfect, then there is a deficiency in His
nature. Any deficiency in God’s nature means He cannot be God, for God’s very
essence requires the perfection of all His attributes. Therefore, the answer to the first
question must, by necessity, be “yes.”

The conclusions from the above are;

1. God is all powerful, all seeing, omnipotent, omniscient, total arbiter of all actions in the entire realm of Creation.

2. Therefore He is responsible for all that take place in Creation.

3. The agents within the Creation have surrendered their control of their destinies to God being the total arbiter.

4. Therefore, the agents do not act according to their wills, but to the overarching will which is the grand plan.

Moving on to the second part of the question, “Why did God create Satan and Adam
and Eve knowing ahead of time they were going to sin?” This question is a little
trickier because we are asking a “why” question to which the Bible does not usually
provide comprehensive answers. Despite that, we should be able to come to a limited
understanding if we examine some biblical passages. To begin, we have already seen
that God is omniscient and nothing can happen outside of His knowledge. So, if God
knew that Satan would rebel and fall from heaven and that Adam and Eve would sin,
yet He created them anyway, it must mean that the fall of mankind was part of God’s
sovereign plan from the beginning. No other answer makes sense given what we have
been saying thus far.
Now we must be careful to note that Adam and Eve falling into sin does not mean
that God is the author of sin, nor that he tempted Adam and Eve to sin (James 1:13 ).
The fall serves the purpose of God’s overall plan for creation and mankind. This,
again, must be the case, or else the fall of mankind would never have happened.
If we consider what some theologians call the "meta-narrative" (or overarching story
line) of Scripture, we see that biblical history can be roughly divided into three main
sections: 1) paradise (Genesis 1–2 ); 2) paradise lost (Genesis 3 – Revelation 20);
and 3) paradise regained ( Revelation 21–22 ). By far the largest part of the narrative
is devoted to moving from paradise lost to paradise regained. At the center of this
meta-narrative is the cross. The cross was planned from the very beginning ( Acts
2:23 ). It was foreknown and foreordained that Christ would go to the cross and give
His life as a ransom for many ( Matthew 20:28 )—those chosen by God’s foreknowledge
and predestined to be His people (Ephesians 1:4-5 ).
Reading Scripture very carefully and taking what has been said so far, we are led to
the following conclusions:
1. The rebellion of Satan and the fall of mankind were foreknown and foreordained by
God.
2. Those who would become the people of God, the elect, were foreknown and
foreordained by God.
3. The crucifixion of Christ, as atonement for God’s people, was foreknown and
foreordained by God.
So, we are left with the following questions: Why create mankind with the knowledge
of the fall? Why create mankind knowing that only some would be "saved?" Why send
Jesus knowingly to die for a people that knowingly fell into sin? From man’s
perspective, it does not make sense. If the meta-narrative moves from paradise, to
paradise lost, to paradise regained, why not just go straight to paradise regained and
avoid the whole paradise lost interlude?
The only conclusion we can come to, in view of the above assertions, is that God’s
purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness.
The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal
of everything He does.

Everything and all of Creation is geared towards one ultimate aim/direction ---- Glorification of God's Self.

The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1 ),
and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23 ).
Our sin causes us to fall short of God’s glory ( Romans 3:23 ), and in the new heaven
and new earth, the glory of God is what will provide light (Revelation 21:23 ). The glory
of God is manifest when His attributes are on perfect display, and the story of
redemption is part of that.
The best place to see this in Scripture is Romans 9:19-24 . Wrath and mercy display
the riches of God’s glory, and you cannot get either without the fall of mankind.
Therefore, all of these actions—fall, election, redemption, atonement—serve the
purpose of glorifying God. When man fell into sin, God’s mercy was immediately
displayed in not killing him on the spot. God’s patience and forbearance were also on
display as mankind fell deeper into sin prior to the flood. God’s justice and wrath were
on display as He executed judgment during the flood, and God’s mercy and grace
were demonstrated as He saved Noah and his family. God’s wrath and justice will be
revealed in the future when He deals with Satan once and for all ( Revelation 20:7-10 ).
The ultimate exhibition of God’s glory was at the cross where His wrath, justice, and
mercy met. The righteous judgment of all sin was executed at the cross, and God’s
grace was on display in pouring His wrath for sin on His Son, Jesus, instead of on us.
God’s love and grace are on display in those whom He has saved ( John 3:16 ;
Ephesians 2:8-9 ). In the end, God will be glorified as His chosen people worship Him
for all eternity with the angels, and the wicked will also glorify God as His justice and
righteousness will finally be vindicated by the eternal punishment of all unrepentant
sinners (Philippians 2:11 ). None of this could have come to pass without the rebellion
of Satan and the fall of Adam and Eve.

The display of mercy and sympathy by God is similar to putting people in danger only to become a hero by appearing to save them. It is like making dragons out of rats. There is no genuine heart behind that. The effect of what you have said is, Creation is a gigantic attempt at publicity.

The classic objection to this position is that God’s foreknowledge and foreordination
of the fall damages man’s freedom. In other words, if God created mankind with full
knowledge of the impending fall into sin, how can man be responsible for his sin? The
best answer to this question can be found in the Westminster Confession of Faith
chapter III:
“God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely,
and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God
the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty
or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established” (WFC, III.1)
What this is saying is that God ordains future events in such a way that our freedom
and the working of secondary causes (e.g., laws of nature) are preserved.
Theologians call this “concurrence.” God’s sovereign will flows concurrently with our
free choices in such a way that our free choices always result in the carrying out of
God’s will (by “free choices” we mean that our choices are not coerced by outside
influences).
To summarize, God knew that Satan would rebel and that Adam and Eve would sin in
the Garden of Eden. With that knowledge, God still created Lucifer and Adam and Eve
because creating them and ordaining the fall was part of His sovereign plan to
manifest His glory in all its fullness. Even though the fall was foreknown and
foreordained, our freedom in making choices is not violated because our free choices
are the means by which God’s will is carried out.
With Ifeness Seun Kay17 Davien Xcapizt Cold e.t.c.

It is unfortunate I'm unable to deliver a refreshing objection other than resort to the 'classical objection'. The pertinent question is whether all these agents namely, man and the devil do actually have a 'true' choice. I will say no, solely because they do not have total knowledge nor omniscience. They can not act beyond what's before. They do not have the full picture, therefore their responsibility is measured by their foresight. Only God has that foresight, therefore full responsibility.

Misogynist2014:
@jonydon22 Reverting back to the original argument, due to the fact you innocently admitted having little knowledge of the diversion, I admit God can influence man's decisions but cannot change his freewill.

And who is talking about God changing mans free will? Where did u now get that when we are yet to be sure that man has freewill given the fact u insist that God is all knowing.

If God knows what I will do in future and his knowledge about my future must come to pass, that i don't have freewill since I must do what he knows. Or do u think I have a choice other than doing what God knows about my future?

Misogynist2014:
Yes, God has the knowledge of future and guards it to His own will, without damaging man's freewill.

Lol... Of course he is the all powerful God. You can ascribe anything to him even if it makes no sense... Like he could be a married bachelor.

Misogynist2014:
GOD HAS GIVEN TO EVERY MAN THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE, HE DOESN'T CHANGE OUR FREE WILL BUT CAN INFLUENCE IT. HE DIDN'T CHANGE THE WILL OF ADAM AND HIS WIFE, NEITHER WAS SIN OFFERED BY HIM. HE HAS PERFECT KNOWLEDGE OF MAN'S LIFE AND GUARDS IT TO HIS OWN WILL.

ADAM WAS NOT COARSED INTO SIN BY GOD PLACING THE FRUIT IN THE GARDEN, NEITHER WAS TEMPTATION OFFERED BY HIM, BUT WAS GIVEN THE POWER OF CHOICE. THOUGH GOD KNEW THE RESULT, HE NEVER IN NO WAY INFLUENCED HIS CHOICE. GOD SENT JUDAS INTO THIS WORLD TO SERVE HIS WILL OF SENDING HIS HOLY SON, WHOSE COMING FORTH HAS BEEN FROM EVERLASTING. THIS IS ONE OF THE CASES OF HIS INFLUENCE ON MAN USING MAN WITHOUT DAMAGING HIS FREEDOM OF CHOICE.

You have repeatedly kept on say things no one asked you or no one is arguing with u. No one is talking about God changing mans free will. Again, I ask you, how did u get that?

Pls stick to argument and respond accordingly.

The argument he is... If God knows our future action and this knowledge is infallible... Do we have the free will do do anything other then what God knows we will do?

If we can't do otherwise... How do u call it freewill?

Kay17:


The conclusions from the above are;

1. God is all powerful, all seeing, omnipotent, omniscient, total arbiter of all actions in the entire realm of Creation.

2. Therefore He is responsible for all that take place in Creation.

3. The agents within the Creation have surrendered their control of their destinies to God being the total arbiter.

4. Therefore, the agents do not act according to their wills, but to the overarching will which is the grand plan.



Everything and all of Creation is geared towards one ultimate aim/direction ---- Glorification of God's Self.



The display of mercy and sympathy by God is similar to putting people in danger only to become a hero by appearing to save them. It is like making dragons out of rats. There is no genuine heart behind that. The effect of what you have said is, Creation is a gigantic attempt at publicity.



It is unfortunate I'm unable to deliver a refreshing objection other than resort to the 'classical objection'. The pertinent question is whether all these agents namely, man and the devil do actually have a 'true' choice. I will say no, solely because they do not have total knowledge nor omniscience. They can not act beyond what's before. They do not have the full picture, therefore their responsibility is measured by their foresight. Only God has that foresight, therefore full responsibility.

I must actually commend you for going through it thoroughly, though I decided not to comment again but your dexterity in giving a good argument, forced me to rethink. But let man's wisdom be God's foolishness. Job said a lot, he challenged God, but one thing he never did was to judge God. The book wasn't written as a story book, it was written for a purpose. Imagine that after God judges the world, He kills the ungodly with fire with eternal effects Jude 1:7, doesn't that remove every guilt? Since they will die in peace and sieze from existence? I write as a man. Even Paul got the the state of your thinking and suffered himself not to judge Him. Romans 9 vs 17-23 (read it). You have no right to judge anyone if you haven't heard his own side, lest you do yourseld a GREAT disservice.

frank317:


You have repeatedly kept on say things no one asked you or no one is arguing with u. No one is talking about God changing mans free will. Again, I ask you, how did u get that?

Pls stick to argument and respond accordingly.

The argument he is... If God knows our future action and this knowledge is infallible... Do we have the free will do do anything other then what God knows we will do?

If we can't do otherwise... How do u call it freewill?

I have limited knowledge of who God is, His reasons for His creation apart from the things He has revealed. Maybe you should try reading my post to Kay17 and respond accordingly.

Misogynist2014:
I must actually commend you for going through it thoroughly, though I decided not to comment again but your dexterity in giving a good argument, forced me to rethink. But let man's wisdom be God's foolishness. Job said a lot, he challenged God, but one thing he never did was to judge God. The book wasn't written as a story book, it was written for a purpose. Imagine that after God judges the world, He kills the ungodly with fire with eternal effects Jude 1:7, doesn't that remove every guilt? Since they will die in peace and sieze from existence? I write as a man. Even Paul got the the state of your thinking and suffered himself not to judge Him. Romans 9 vs 17-23 (read it). You have no right to judge anyone if you haven't heard his own side, lest you do yourseld a GREAT disservice.

U didn't want to respond again? Lol...

U opened a thread and invited people to comment and contribute but once u were connered you resorted to different kind of escape tactics.

First to accuse Johnny of asserting that nothing came out of something when he clearly only said he didn't know how the universe came to be.

Second you change the line of argument by talking about some atomic self existence gibberish

Third you try to escape by following a line of argument no one is asking you... You ignore ur opponents response and insist God don't change mans freewill when no one is saying that.

Lastly u decided to remain silent?

This is not the first nor the tenth time u theists open a thread with so much energy only to run when connered. Smh.

Misogynist2014:
I have limited knowledge of who God is, His reasons for His creation apart from the things He has revealed. Maybe you should try reading my post to Kay17 and respond accordingly.

OK... Are u now saying u don't know the answer to my question?

Can u now apologize for opening the thread and just simply tell us to forgive u for ur ignorance?

frank317:


U didn't want to respond again? Lol...

U opened a thread and invited people to comment and contribute but once u were connered you resorted to different kind of escape tactics.

First to accuse Johnny of asserting that nothing came out of something when he clearly only said he didn't know how the universe came to be.

Second you change the line of argument by talking about some atomic self existence gibberish

Third you try to escape by following a line of argument no one is asking you... You ignore ur opponents response and insist God don't change mans freewill when no one is saying that.

Lastly u decided to remain silent?

This is not the first nor the tenth time u theists open a thread with so much energy only to run when connered. Smh.

I am not chasing shadows, but trying to answer your question by firstly admitting I am not God and given the fact that I am foreseeing an argument to infinity, with the reliance steadily moving the path of logic, I decided we should give St. Paul and Job's view a chance for the sake of dynamism of thought. Hope you get me? Can you then study the post and give me your candid view? As for the question on something and nothing, I've already told jony to skip it.

Misogynist2014:
I am not chasing shadows, but trying to answer your question by firstly admitting I am not God and given the fact that I am foreseeing an argument to infinity, with the reliance steadily moving the path of logic, I decided we should give St. Paul and Job's view a chance for the sake of dynamism of thought. Hope you get me? Can you then study the post and give me your candid view? As for the question on something and nothing, I've already told jony to skip it.

I care less about another meaningless ranting from Paul or Job.

The question I want you to answer is... Do I have the free will to decide to play football when your God already knows I will go reading?

frank317:


I care less about another meaningless ranging from Paul or Job.

The question I want you to answer is... Do I have the free will to decide to play football when your God already knows I will go reading?

Apparently, you didn't read the verses, reading it has given me another perspective, it goes thus ' 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. Romans'