₦airaland Forum

nicetohave:
Interesting , have a pleasant week nferyn, exu and

Same to you, nicetohave
No hard feelings

goodguy:
You guys actually believe there's God. But due to your pride and intellectualism, you do not want to admit that he exists. It's a real pity.

If you're addressing me:

1. No, I don't believe in God and I never have
2. I do not need to admit the existence of an entity that is without meaning to me
3. All your talk about God has not clarified it's meaning at all, on the contrary. This God is the most contradictory entity that must exist. Omnipotence and omniscience imply, by definition, the non-existence of free will, as free will implies choice and choice implies uncertainty. Logically, either your God does not exist or he is limited.

goodguy:
Isn't it so funny how people are trying so hard to disprove the veracity of the Bible and not some other book?

Are there any other books claiming to be the word of god and the guide for all humanity while at the same time being in contradiction to so much of our established knowledge?

goodguy:
Nferyn, what I posted above is actually not from me. I copied that out from a link.
Empire: A political unit having an extensive territory or comprising a number of territories or nations and ruled by a single supreme authority.
Actually, I don't think I am in the best position to explain this extensively. I hope you get the answers you inquire from the definition.

Close, but no cigar. There is no single supreme authority in the EU.

I might answer your other objections after I've gone through your other links.

nicetohave:
it fulfils more than emotional needs.and it makes more sense than all of science put together but as i said, it is not an emotional opium, it is a life-giving way.

It makes sense because you have a need for purpose. This is an emotional need. Calling it a life-giving way is just another label for the same.
It is very true that science does not give purpose. It only explains the natural world. It has no pretenses to give purpose or direction to anybody's life. Science only addresses the how, not the why.
I find my purpose in my family, children and friends. That's all I need.

nicetohave:
Interestingly i am one of those, because even though it sounds foolish and devoid of reason, it makes more sense that all the scientific evidence put together, i mean what is the use of a knowledge that cannot give me life? In God is life, and his life is the light of men, where science has failed me, God has bared me up and through.and i didnt believe in him because i am some weak slowpoke but because he has got far more than reason could offer me, not because i was born into it because no man is born in the flesh into christ, it is by the grace of God which interestingly has appeared to all me but which some has chosen to ignore.

This makes far more sense to me than all the intellectual justifications for your belief. Your belief fulfils an emotional need. Why didn't you admit this to start with.

nicetohave:
oh please nferyn, are serious or joking or just plainly living in a world of delusion? at what other times in history is moral decadence so vast and crying for attention in the history of human existence? gay marriage, gay babies, corruption and lawlessness going through the roof, boy, you must be on planet mars and not earth to say that.

No, I'm not joking, not at all. Can you please tell me which societies in the past were more moral than ours. Or do you like to forget mass genocide, the crusades, the dark ages, witch hunts, slavery, colonisation, the extermination of the Indians on the American continent, ....

nicetohave:
on this issue nferyn, you are right.God needs no apologists to defend his existence, infact he needs no one to defend his existence, unlike evolution.if we would discuss the topic of evolution we would start from the beginning and see where it can't be the explanation for our existence today; we can start a new thread on that.

You continue declaring that there are problems with evolution without bringing any arguments to the debate. Maybe you should start a thread on the topic if you're up to the task.

@ nicetohave
Nice of you to admit that there is no intellectual base for your god belief. The only problem with these declarations is that they are nonsensical.
Only someone who puts faith before reason, someone who values belief above intellect, someone who possesses a spirit of obedience rather than a spirit of inquiry and curiosity could possibly join this flock. There are many who do prefer the comfortable blanket of religion to protect them from the cold hard reality of life's existence.

Just a few comments on some of your points, goodguy

goodguy:
[list]
[li]The rise of the European Union - the world's last great empire (Daniel 7:7, Revelation 13)[/li]
[/list]

The EU is anything but an empire. What definition of empire do you use to label the EU as an empire?

goodguy:
[list]
[li]The creation of a European army (Daniel 11:38-39) [/li]
[/list]

There is no such thing as a European army; the common military command structure of the EU is far weaker than that of Nato

goodguy:
[list]
[li]Restoration of Biblical Hebrew, as a living language (Zephaniah 3:9) [/li]
[/list]

Modern Hebrew is very different from classical or biblical Hebrew

goodguy:
[list]
[li]The Jewish Temple ready for rebuilding, and sacrifices resuming (Daniel 9:27)[/li]
[/list]

Where did you get that idea? Israel will never rebuild the temple. It goes against their core beliefs.

goodguy:
[list]
[li]A decline in the moral behaviour of society (2 Timothy 3:1-5)[/li]
[/list]

Our current societies are far more moral than any in human history.

goodguy:
[list]
[li]Terrible catastrophes and natural devastation increasing (Luke 21:25-26)
[/li]
[/list]

There is no increase of catastrophies and natural devastation, on the contrary. Moreover, we're far better equiped to deal with these events than anytime in our past history.

@ elbaron
I try to be a little accommodating because otherwise the debate immediately stops. And to be honest, I really didn't want to go through his badly constructed, decontextualised English sentences. It would take me far longer just to understand what he's talking about than to have him debate the issues directly and reformulate what he's been writing.
I have little hope though that he will try to put his arguments in a more readable format

nicetohave:
I am done with showing you whatever proof ive got of the existence of God,i am not intellectually destitude i just stop short at continuing to make needless contributions.if you have made enough research to conclude there is no God in existence, well to you so be it;

Apparently you are easier swayed by weak argumentation than I am. It's obvious you cannot make the case for the existence of God on a logical or intellectual base, because the source for your belief is neither logical nor intelectual, it's emotional at the core. Intellectually you use some weak apologetics to defend your case, but that's only after you've already made up your mind on emotional grounds

Why would God need apologists to defend his existence in the first place?

nicetohave:
you brought in evolution and loudly applaud it yet you don't know the errors in it glaring you in the face, what are you defending?

Once more, be precise. What errors are you talking about?

nicetohave:
your statements or evolution? the theory of evolution is faulted in many ways, carbon dating in itself is masked with a lot of errors.i think you should do more reasearch into evolution instead of just reading articles pasted on websites.

Of course carbon dating has its problems, it's a contextual methods and the environment where fossils are found can be contaminated. Some fossils have been incorrectly dated at first, but these mistakes have been rectified later on. Show me a serious, representative sample of errors in carbon dating that are sufficient to discredit the method. I bet you cannot because it isn't there.

I have done my research on evolution, thank you. Have you?
Please read these books on evolution I have read before you accuse me of not having done my research:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060199067/qid=1135674443/sr=8-8/ref=pd_bbs_8/102-8137714-3567327?n=507846&s=books&v=glance
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007NLUP4/qid=1135674525/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_7/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0618005838/qid=1135674566/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-8137714-3567327?n=507846&s=books&v=glance
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393315703/qid=1135674625/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0192860925/qid=1135674625/sr=2-3/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_3/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0618335404/qid=1135674625/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0618056734/qid=1135674625/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393316823/qid=1135674625/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_5/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0192880519/qid=1135674625/sr=1-8/ref=sr_1_8/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0192880519/qid=1135674625/sr=1-8/ref=sr_1_8/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0670031518/qid=1135674894/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393318486/qid=1135674894/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060958332/qid=1135674894/sr=2-3/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_3/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385334303/qid=1135674973/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1568361637/qid=1135674973/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1568361041/qid=1135675066/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8137714-3567327?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
and numerous online articles and debates

donnie:
I have opened my mind but do not intend to loose it to failed-human wisdom

What failed human wisdom? For what reason do you call if failed?

donnie:
Of course our bodies should have traces of micro-organisms...afterall our bodies were formed from the earth. That is not to say that we descended from micro-organisms.

Indeed, we only have a symbiotic relation with them on a cellular level, except for the earlier life forms of which we do descend. What do you mean by formed from the earth?

donnie:
No...it points to the fact that whereas man was created a spirit in Gods image, chimpanzees were formed from the earth, the same place where man got his body (earth- suit, with which he fuctions on the earth) from.

Explain to me the mechanism of that formation and how that exactly points to these numbers. M-DNA studies have an exact mechanism to show for and their evidence coincides with other cladistic studies, radiometric dating of the fossils and morphological changes in the fossil record.

donnie:
This man unlike the early man(or ape-man) has that spark of diviity in him for which reason he is drawn towards God who desires to save and fellowship with him.

Where's the evidence supporting this?
Oh, I understand.... Poof.... Goddidit

donnie:
...but their assumptions are wrong.

Which assumptions are wrong and for what reason are they wrong?

donnie:
...you are just looking for every thing possible to use to deny the reality of God which i wouldnt be supprsed you believe exists, but are too proud or should i say, afraid to accept.

This is the summit of projection. You ascribe to me what is one of the main drivers of religion: fear. The concept of a supreme being is so much in contradiction with logic and the natural world that I have trouble understanding that an intelligent human can believe in such a thing, except if driven by fear and social pressure.

donnie:
He is to big for such.

But why don't we find any evidence then? What's the purpose of a God that does everything to divorce himself from his creation up to the point of leaving no evidence for his existence behind?

donnie:
[SNIP]
Is that what you call evidence. How can you call those developments (which are merely results of changes in eating habits of humans, diets, nutritional contents or preparation and preservation of our foods or change in some other external or factors) pointers to evolution.

Changes in diet have no direct impact on our genome. Only through evolution do these changes impact our DNA. It is exactly so that the selective environment of humans has changed drastically and that these changes have ensured that the mutations causing e.g. lactose tolerance have beneficial effects on our survival, hence their preservation in our DNA: evolution at work.

nicetohave:
Donnie i commend you for the simple faith you have in the word of God and even with little scientific knowledge you have as you said is unswayed by the "bogus" evidences provided by NL most noted atheist,

You call ignorance a virtue. At least Donnie is honest in his replies. Which is more than what I can say about you. Is deceit in the name of the Lord a virtue nowadays?

nicetohave:
which i must tell you most of his references are either been found to be untrue or faulted with errors,

Once more: where are these faults? Show them to me. You have not been able to discredit even one of my statements. You either try to duck the questions or resort to a [i]liberal [/i]treatment of the truth. Your intellectual dishonesty is telling.

nicetohave:
it is your simple faith i commend and everyone who has the hope of life in them........i continue to laugh at how man has hunged to untrue and far-fetched work of other humans, humans who themselves have considerable doubts in their own very work

Unsupported statements. Where is the meat of your argument?
untrue work of other humans: which work?
far fetched-work of other humans: which work?
humans who have considerable doubts in their own very work: which humans?
This is nothing but slander and character assassination.

kodewrita:
@nferyn i was answering the first poster. As to what i was trying to disprove. his articles ranged were based on mathematical inconsistencies observed and so-called differences from science which i tried to correct. 10q

Goodguy already pointed in that direction. It wasn't clear as you didn't use quotes. Anyway, I stand corrected.

kodewrita:
as to my scientific background, while i might still be an undergraduate computer science student that does not stop me from reading ANYTHING that comes my way. I subscribe to all physics and programming mags i come across. "thank you".

I'm very happy to hear that. I hope you succeed in your quest for knowledge. Maybe you should subscribe to some magazines on biology, geology or other historical sciences as well. It might broaden your scope.

kodewrita:
as to my passing many exams. . i passed my cambridge a levels in physics and had an A in O level physics and B in my geography but i am smart enough to know that established science is not always right and i read not just recommended topics. I firmly believe in creation and i have read many articles providing scientific basis for that argument.

My bad. I made assumptions based solely on your posts. These did not show that you have extensively studied the subjects you were writing about.. Obviously established science is not always right for 100% on the facts. That knowledge gets updated constantly. Applying the scientific method though is currently the only way that our knowledge increases fundamentally. The fact that you believe in creation (obviously if creation is only a first-mover type of creation this criticism doesn't apply), and that you claim there is a scientific basis for creation, only points to a very sketchy knowledge of the scientific method.

kodewrita:
Its faulty logic to attack the messenger not the message.

It is not faulty logic, it has nothing to do with logic at all. It was bad manners and I appolise for that. Using arguments from autority is always a bad way of conducting a discussion. I got carried away because I've seen far too many people discussing issues they don't know the first thing about. Anyway, my sincere appologies for this misstep.

kodewrita:
When i have the time(not everyone is jobless enough to sit in front of a pc when you can be doing serious work.) i will start a post on radio-carbon dating,proofs for a young earth and young universe and disproofs of the so-called proofs of evolution.

Now, that's a serious ad hominem, but I'll let it pass, because I was the one starting the argument on a bad footing.
Anyway, using the term 'proof' in a scientific debate shows a lack of understanding of how science works. I hope it was just a slip of the tongue.
I would be very happy if you could bring said 'proofs' for a young earth. I am yet to see the first one that sticks.

kodewrita:
If I may ask, what is your own scientific background?

I have a Masters Degree in Communication Science. I have always been very interested in biology though and I hung out with a lot of the people from Physics Department at university. I was involved in the Study Circle Free Enquiry at the Brussels Free University, where we studied epistemiology and scientific methodologies quite extensively.

kodewrita:
As to whether the thought of a God never entered your mind, i find that preposterous to say the least.

If all you have is a hammer, all problems look like nails.
You may come from a theistic background or culture/sub-culture, I don't. The concept of a deity only makes sense if you've been exposed to it from a young age onward.

thelastdon:
rude.......... y?

je suis une personne aimable,

Je n'ai aucune doute que vous êtes une personne aimable. Il faut seulement être un peu plus prudent quand vous exclamez votre connaissance de la langue française.

Bien a vous

snazzydawn:
The bible says...... the fool said in his heart,there is no God.Only a fool says there is no God.Its in the bible,no be me talk am.He that has eyes,let him read!!!

This is a very weak retreat into ignorance. You cannot use the product of an entity you need to prove as proof for it's existance.
I will post a proof of the logical impossibility of the monotheistic God based on the characteristics of God (omniscience, omnipotence, omnibenevolence, immutability, unintelligable)
Stay tuned

PS: this will not be a proof that God does not exist, only that the specific God of the 3 great monotheistic religions cannot exist and is self contradictory. It is impossible to prove the non-existence of the God concept in it's broadest terms.

nicetohave:
Well the voice can be heard far above even armies of suggestion in your mind, even when it is just a whisper..........but because you said you have never conceived it, then so be it

You are projecting your own experiences on me.

thelastdon:
nferyn, I already have it

if u are up for it, u can tlk to me 2ru yahoo and lets see who is using the trick

or u might gimme a call and lets do some oral test

huhuh

Look, you may very well have [i]some [/i]understanding of oral French, but you can't write French at all. What you wrote here is unintelligible blabber, throwing some French words in a mishmash, creating something that doesn't even remotely resemble a grammatically correct French sentence.
Anyway, French is not my mother tongue and I'm not claiming to speak it perfectly, on the contrary. You on the other hand give the impression that you are capable of teaching French.
Get of your high horse and use English, you won't make such a fool of yourself.

If on the other hand you want to improve on your French, better find some French speakers on-line and converse with them in French. I won't be able to help you because my French isn't good enough. As you seem to be residing in Holland as well, we could carry on the conversation in Dutch, that is my mother tongue, after all.

nicetohave:
because they are trying to quieten their conscience that kept screaming "there is a God is heaven that rules in the affairs of men on earth"

This is completely ridiculous. Use you projections of fear on yourself, will you.
Never in my life have I had the thought in my head that there is or could be something as a god. The idea is so farfetched that it makes me wonder about all those that do believe in a supreme being. It is the ultimate expression of self-deceit.

nicetohave:
when a man can't find an explanation to a situation, they call it "insufficient findings or inconclusive" whereas they turn a deaf ear to the word of God that is "all conclusive", its a shame.

Define the word of God
What situation are you talking about?

layi:
Those who insist the bible to be false use the ark as one of their strongest points. Now that its been proven true..i'm not the more surprised they go diggin for more 'falses'.

It has not been proven true, not at all.
See:
http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/babinski/flood.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ark-hoax.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/woodmorappe-review.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH500.html

layi:
I believe the scriptures because Its TRUTH.

Assertion is not evidence.

layi:
Mathematical inaccuracies (if at all there is any) like kodewriter said is not enough to discredit the Scriptures. It was inspired by the holy spirit not written by HIM. Men wrote it and many times they make references to other books. Even our scientific findings do not correlate at times. Over 5000 neurones and over 4000 neurones are practically saying the same thing.

Define holy spirit, define inspiration, explain mechanism of inspiration, bring evidence for said inspiration. this would be a starting point for an informed discussion. Without precise descriptions, we are speaking another language.
What does Even our scientific findings do not correlate at times. Over 5000 neurones and over 4000 neurones are practically saying the same thing. mean? I have no idea what you're talking about.

layi:
Why don't we bring out errors in d messages instead of arguin like kids.

Indeed, you need to have a common language before you can discuss anything at all. All those biblical concepts are so vague that you can interpret them in thousands of different ways.

layi:
One more thing. Why d hammer on christianity.?Why are other religion spared in this battle? Why am i yet to see a thread against judaism, budhist, ecks, grails messg, krishna movements, Islam etc?

Christianity makes these specific literalist claims. Judaism does not (see mithrash). Budhism is more of a philosophy than a religion and I don't know enough about Islam to discuss it.

layi:
Are we indirectly saying they are all pure but christianity false?

Not in the least. In my book [b]all [/b]religions are false

layi:
Believe me this is enough for a critical thinker to know there's something special bout my christianity. I just love it.

thelastdon:
maybe, u should apply for a french lesson class... how do u c that..

Maybe you should apply yourself. What you have been writing here is not even close to french. Google or other software translators [b]do not [/b]do the trick.

thelastdon:
99 dollars 99 cents per month.... i will do the teaching

ademain

For the quality you're offering, even 99 cent would be overpriced.
Passez chez le directeur de l'école avant de partir. Il vous donnera ton lettre de démissionnement.

@ kodewrita
Can you make a coherent argument , based on identifying the points you are addressing. There's no point in debating something that is so vague as your post.

1. What's your point?
2. What are you trying to prove/disprove?
3. What positive case are you trying to make here?
4. Which points, made by whom are you addressing? Can you use relevant quotes?
5. Make an exact, precise case for your so called disproofs of evolution or radio-carbon dating, so that I can address them one by one.
6. What exactly is your scientific background? Your post does not seem to indicate that you have passed many exams. Of course, it can be laziness as well.

spicequeen:
Nferyn,
the book of creation that is the beauty around us etc and the simple Genesis account which says at Genesis 1:1 that in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth gives a simple explanation that man and the universe did not come by chance. I believe U are a father with kids if so did your kids come along just by chance? If U make a car or a plane or any other thing u are called a genius but evolutionist claim man and the universe with all its complexities came by cahnce isn't this too farfetched? There sure exist a Creator and the bible is really His word.

You have absolutely zero [/i]undertanding about the Theory of Evolution:
1. The Theory of Evolution does not deal with the existence of the universe, only with how life evolved from simpler life forms to the complex ones we see today.
2. Chance is a very minimal component of the Theory of evolution. The only place where chance plays a role is in the fact that the genome of all living organisms is undergoing [i]random mutations.
3. The processes of natural selection, punctuated equilibria, genetic drift and sexual selection are anything but chance driven processes. Educate yourself before opening your mouth.

4. The complexities of the universe can be explained by the effects of natural processes. No supernatural agency is necessary at all. Even if you postulate a supernatural creator, you still have to explain the complexity and existence of that creator. It adds [b]absolutely nothing [/b]to our understanding of the universe.

You assertions are empty.

thelastdon:
N'importe ce que vous les gens dites, la France est mes meres debarquent toujours, je veux voir que vous peuple Goliath maintenant, je suis ne a Paris et Paris est toujours le meilleur endroit que j'ai jamais ete a dans la vie. Donnez vos commentaires en francais svp

I will only receive opinions or question posted in francais

Then better learn how to write french first. Vous n'avez qu'une compréhension minimale de la langue française.

[quote author=prince_onx link=topic=3883.msg141336#msg141336 date=1135486724]maybe I had a bad experience with Nigeria transfer this transfer that but for folks abroad, please stick to western union/money mart. when its comes to money business/transfers with nigerian, one will die if they fall from the hight of the stories that comes with it! they make it sound easy and smoth but when you're in it...................... stories![/quote]We're talking about transfers between our own accounts. It isn't easy, but once everthing isset up, SWIFT is very reliale and the charges are minimal. Western Union is pure theft. No more, no less.

nicetohave:
do you know how he lived, and died?

well all you have gotten is noise because that's all you're hearing not because thats all being said; anyway nferyn tell me why gravity differs in different planets, you still havent answered me.

The gravity on different planets differs because their mass differs. The force of gravity is determined by the mass of the object that expresses that gravity..

Law of Universal Gravitation: Every mass in the universe attracts every other mass with a force that for two masses is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance separating them
F = (G(m1*m2))/d^2

nicetohave:
I will let you have proofs, as i said, as time permits me: you have to agree this is a social forum which we are all glad to be part of i believe, we have other lives aside this.

Obviously, the same goes for me. LadyC for example has entered the forum with a bang and I would very much like to answer her assertions, but there's only 24 hours in a day

I have tuned in for quite some time now. All I got for my patience was noise. I couldn't even improve the picture quality. When does the program start?

elbaron:
This is all very good. PrettyH, they are not contradictions to you but truths. Fair enough. What we ask is that you share those salient truths with us. Take us out of our ignorance and win some souls for God. Instead of getting upset et al, why don't you try explaining?

Explaining implies some intellectual effort. I'm affraid PrettyH has placed herself beyond that reality already.
Blessed are the meek, because they shall inherit the earth. Case closed

ijebuman:
Been to Belgium, nothing much to see (apologies to nferyn) on my way to Amsterdam

There is a film about an american group of tourists on a trip in Europe, the title is "It's Tuesday, This must be Belgium"
Anyway, there's quite a lot to see, but usually Belgians are very bad at self-promotion and patriotism is very rare.

You have the historical medieval city centers of Bruges and Ghent, the art-nouveau buildings of Brussels, the old industrial belt in Wallonia (quite a sight)
Belgium probably has the highest concentration of excellent restaurants and pubs in the world (Belgium has more than 5000 different sorts of Beer - and not all varieties of lager)
Antwerp and Ghent have a very lively cultural scene.

In Holland, Amsterdam is OK, the rest is.... say no more
One piece of advice: do not eat anything in Holland, unless it's an Indonesian restaurant. Their food is awful.