₦airaland Forum

A religion is a cult with an established hierarchy. This ensures that it can continue even after the founder/guru is no longer present.

Other than that, I see no fundamental difference.

Some cults actually become religions in their own right, e.g. Christianity was originally a Jewish cult that eventually grew into a religion. From orthodox (Roman Catholic) Christianity other cults sprang up during the time of reformation (e.g. Lutheranism), which then became established religions of their own.

Seun:
[SNIP]
In addition, in a male-dominated society, there seems to be much more societal outrage over the killing of a woman than the killing of a man.

<SARCASM type="bitter">
Except if it's as some sort of punishment for breaking the moral codes of said society, then they have no problem sentencing these women to death. Or maybe punishing their family by organising a gang rape of their youngest daughter like in Pakistan. After all she was not killed.
Maybe you should address the issues I raised instead of side stepping the discussion. This is just peripheral talk about who has got the biggest ....
</SARCASM>

Seun:
No woman has been stoned for adultery yet - each time a woman is condemned to death for adultery under Sharia, her lawyer would appeal and win the appeal.

And that makes it right? The fact alone that these type of accusations and these type of sentences are even entertained is showing what the real position of women is in Nigeria. And maybe it's only in the north this happens, but where were all these courageous leaders from the south to fight against this travesty?

Seun:
However, some men have had their hands amputated for stealing, while others have been flogged publicly for various offences.

This obviously wouldn't happen or hasn't happened to women? What kind of comparison are you trying to make here?

Seun:
Those women were charged for adultery because they got pregnant out of wedlock - they were not caught in the act and hence their lovers (the men) were not caught.

Shows you indeed how gender neutral these laws are. It's rather easy to establish whether or not those men are the fathers. And they even admitted being the fathers. Why were there no charges?

Seun:
When there is a war, women get [sexually asaulted] while men get killed. Which is worse?

Do you really have to ask yourself this question? Try to continue your life as a woman after being raped in a male dominated society. They would probably prefer the faith of the men. And do you mean women do not get killed in war?

Seun:
[Again talking from my experience in Nigeria]

Nferyn, I feel you, but when I doscovered that I was more of a feminist than the women I was supposedly fighting for, I decided to quit. My justification: why should I fight for the women if they are not interested fighting for themselves or supporting those who are trying to fight for them?

Then that shows how important that is to you, Seun. Not enough for you to continue apparently. There will always be people that help at the continuation of their own submission. It's a type of mental slavery they need to get out of. These people lack the mental strength to get out of their predicament, that's why they need support more than ever. And if some scoff at you for that, it's a small price to pay: a slightly deflated ego. The big picture is too important to let something like that pass.

And all in all, nobody needs to fight. Stating your opinions and the reasons for having them clearly can do wonders, maybe not immediately, but if people start thinking about what you say, this can have a very beneficial long term effect.

Seun:
Our women in Nigeria, especially in Yorubaland, are probably the most liberated women in Africa. They have been pulling their weight even before independence and they have been using their mouths to build up and tear down great men for decades. If sexual inequality is so bad, then why aren't our women campaigning for it?

Again, this may be true in a Nigerian or African context, but that is certainly not sufficient. Would you think poverty is fine, just because your neighbours are starving?
Ask yourself these questions:
* do women receive equal education opportunities?
* do woman get equal pay for equal work?
* do [i]families [/i]offer women equal employment opportunities? (with this I mean: is child care shared among the partners, can the women continue their work after giving birth? ...)
* is the inheritance system gender neutral?
If you can answer these questions sort of positively, then you have a starting point as far as women's liberation is concerned. If not, talk about 'the most liberated women in Africa' is very empty

Seun:
There is something that women are enjoying from the unequal treatment; something that probably makes them live longer. They enjoy more security and the freedom to express their emotions. I mean, this type of woman bores me to death, but yet they tend to live so long, which makes me envy them a little.

Some probably do. Some do have a mental slavery attitude, but that can [b]never [/b]be a justification for the current status quo

There's an excellent blog on the position of women in Africa (and you've linked to it regularly), http://okrasoup.typepad.com/black_looks/

Try to get into the arguments, you will certainly learn a lot.

Ka:
Nferyn,

Are Burkinabe films as popular on the African continent as Nigerian ones? I don't know - I'm just asking.

No, I don't think so, these are the films they usually show at arthouse cinemas here in Europe. They're usually very good.

@ queen2, layi, Seun, Tunku, Scorpio, idollier, Trooper and dablessed
Thank you all very much for your kind words. It makes my day

goodguy:
This is not about me. What if she doesnt know the consequences? what if she's illetrate? what if she feels.. "I want to know how this thing feels, since it's done to other girls" (being a young girl, she's bound to be curious about such things).

Then you're mutilating a child that's too young to know what this is about anyway. There are no excuses. If an adult woman free from societal pressures, decides such a thing, then it's her decision. In any and every other case, it's just plain wrong.

Hi jojo,

No offense taken
Anyway, I have informed myself quite well on the subject and I have seen these kind of video's as well. They're an appeal to emotion on a subject that needs more rationality (and this from both sides of the divide)

please keep in mind that nobody is forcing anybody to undergo an abortion.

goodguy:
probably she just wants to know how it feels being circumcised.

Let me cut of your arm. I guess you want to feel how it is without arm as well?

goodguy:
what if the girl demands that she wants to be circumcised? Is that still cruel?

And under what conditions would that happen? I cannot see any women demanding circumcision unless under pressure from their environment - which makes it even worse.

jojo:
[SNIP]
and they baby is alive from the time the sperm hit the egg how else do you suposse it grows and thats just technical bullshit
[SNIP]

This is clearly not true, unless you would call cutting your toenails or donating blood murder as well. If so, then our positions are so far apart that we cannot possibly even discuss the issues

jojo:
[SNIP]
and those who perform them are murders and people who make excuses for people who do them are just as bad

This all depends on the question when personhood starts and when killing a person is murder. I really don't like the implication that I'm just as bad as a murderer. Let's stay civilised here.

@ jojo
I still advise you to read the complete thread and all the links. It's obviously a very emotional subject for you, so I can understand your anger, but the issue is far more complex than what you describe.
Think about the following:
- what is a baby and what isn't?
- when does personhood start?
- when does a fetus get the capacity to feel pain?
- is life more valueable than the quality of life?

Trying to paint people that undergo abortions or doctors that perform abortions as vile murderers is not helping anybody get a better understanding of the issues involved.
And I'm yet to see the first person that is pro abortion. It should be avoided as much as possible.

jojo:
abortion is murder FULL STOP ..if a women is not ready to have a baby then hello keep your legs closed .... in the case of rape there is adoption just because the mother was raped is no reason to kill the poor baby it was not its fault so why should the baby pay ( i was raped so yes i can say this )

Please read the complete thread, look at the arguments and then make up your mind. You may come to the same conclusion, but then again, you may also discover that this is not a black-and-white issue.
Can you substantiate your claim as to why abortion is murder?

@ omon

How come then that movies from Burkina Fasso are of much better quality than those from Nigeria. It's just a matter of focus. Those Nigerian movies are cash cows and I don't think most of the producers really care about the quality. They can do so much better, even with limited funds.

But I must admit that the quality is improving, they almost reached the point that the movies are watchable

It's certainly not going to take that long. Things can go very quickly the moment a few facilitating factors are met. One of the elements that can jumpstart things in my opinion is the move to smaller family units and the decline of the role of the extended family. This has got such a dramatic influence on attitudes that it is hard to overestimate it's importance

But, of course, that's not sufficient

I, guilty of marrying to a Nigerian woman, cannot possibly watch Nigerian home video's for longer than 15 minutes. The bad production and lame storylines make it impossible for me to get into a a state of suspension of disbelief.

While there are countless American movies that have equally bad acting or storylines, the quality of production allows you to get into the story.

This is the one thing can make these movies acceptable to a non-African audience. There are African films that are appreciated by non-Africans, but these films don't originate in Nigeria, but rather in Mali, Senegal Burkina Fasso, etc

Seun:
[SNIP]
Can you itemize the excellent advice you say you have found on this thread? I am afraid I can't tell which is which just by reading the thread, but I will like you to be more specific about the excellent advice you have found on this thread which you'd like me to follow.

Waiting for your response!

I will, but I'm not going to wade through this thread anymore this evening. That will probably be for tomorrow

Seun:
Dear nferyn,

Please check the timestamp on the messages; I feel really bad to be talked down to based on what I wrote many months ago.

[SNIP]

Didn't take that into account. Sorry about what may read like harsh words. And really, I wasn't talking you down.
My apologies

And yes, my wife can smile too

Seun,

Is this enough proof for you?

That picture is seven years old and I haven't aged that much since. I just don't have any good recent pictures.

And yes, I've got some pictures where she smiles, but it's just too much of a drag to scan everything from our marriage album. More recent pictures will follow

Something to think about:

There is a very strong correlation between the level of gender equality and the human development index. And it's not only prosperity driving equal gender rights. Experiments with micro credit in rural poor areas of the world has shown that where the loans were given to the women the result was much better than when the men were on the receiving end

I already have before.
See attached pic

I was absolutely amazed when going through this thread. Seun, please try to be a little more humble in matters you have no experience with. A lot of people gave very sound advice, do not dismiss that so easily

My take:
* Experience counts
* Sexual compatibility is no myth
* The value of virginity only lies in some arbitrary moral code

You cannot possibly know the full range of what sexuality can be for you unless you've had experience with several partners. Once you want to settle and marry, you'd better know what you expect and require from your partner. Bad sex in a marriage is a recipe for disaster. If you marry a virgin or marry as a virgin, you're taking a big risk with your marriage.

For those that do want to take that path, I just hope it all turns out OK, but I pity you for possibly risking something as important as marriage just for some irrational moral idea

Now, back on topic.
Have I answered you question to your satisfaction?

There's always a difference between should and did. Training will make probably get them closer.

Now, I certainly cannot speak in any or all of your names, but there's a lot of hypocrisy floating around here. Do not always try to take the moral high ground, it's embarrassing
1. for those weak people that cannot meet your standards (and that's the majority)
2. for yourselves if you're not walking the walk as you're talking the talk

try some empathy, forgiveness [/i]and [i]understanding of everybody's human nature, it does wonders for your soul

I'm so sorry to hear that

layi:
And i guess thats nferyn holding the Owl.

You think I'm that old and ugly
No, that's the bird trainer. This was after a show with birds of prey. We saw owls, buzzard, falcons and even an eagle.
The one holding the owl is really Tom, see how he's wearing a strong leather glove

Seun:
I envy Tom; he has the best of both worlds: dark skin and lovely hair!

His hair isn't as soft as you would think it is. My wife has got very strong hair and mine is thick and strong as well (at least for somebody white). His hair texture isn't very different from someone completely black

Most of you here are looking at this as if it's only about whether or not the woman should accept to become pregnant and whether or not it is OK to behave like that. Let's just look at the attitude of a man that needs to [i]test [/i]the fertility of his wife to be before he can marry.

1. It could just as well be him that is infertile
2. Why does he need o know that? Is his love not strong enough for his wife to be infertile? If I were a woman, I would never even consider to marry a man coming with this kind of ideas. It just show what messed up mind he has