₦airaland Forum

Seun:
You know as well as I do that most abortions are carried out by young women who are not ready to manage the consequences of unexpected pregnancy, and this is the case I wished we would deal with first. I'm trying to simplify the debate to make it manageable, so we can draw useful conclusions instead of going around in circles.

Let's say we have an 18 year old female student, who got pregnant after having sex with her regular boyfriend. She's not ready to drop out of school to take care of her child, and her family members are not interested in any scandal. They do not want the child, and so abortion is being considered. The foetus is 26 weeks old, and so it's a person. Her health is not at risk, and the child to be born is going to be perfectly healthy.

In this case, is it right to kill this 26 week old 'person' simply because we don't feel like spending the resources that would be required to take care of him? This seems to be equivalent to the question of whether it's right for a mother to kill her new-born baby because she can't afford to keep him, right?

I really don't feel that it's right to abort at this time. It's immoral and illegal (in most countries that have legal abortions).The girl knew perfectly well she was pregnant way before that time and if she wanted an abortion, she could have had it. At that stage the reason to abort needs to be something significantly more than inconvenience (such as I pointed out before), we're talking about ending a human life here.

I think in this case the overall morality of society is where the problem lies. Why didn't she have the abortion earlier? Is it because she can not talk about the issues with her parents? Is it because society has very negative attitudes towards early stage abortions?

It is an established fact that in societies with:
- access to comprehensive sex education
- a more liberal attitude towards sex and relationships
- legal access to abortion facilities under strict medical and ethical guidance and control
we find that:
- the rate/number of abortions is lower
- abortions do not result in medical problems (infertility, death, etc) to the same degree
- there are far less unwanted pregnancies

I have the unpleasant feeling that this is turning into a one-on-one discussion, so please other members do join and bring your perspective, especially the women

Seun:
Ignoring the misattributions and misunderstandings, can I say that nferyn's point of view is that:
- A fetus becomes a person when neural activity can be detected, at about 25 weeks.
- Legislation should allow women the liberty up to some time before the date at which we would reasonably expect the abortable 'thing' to become a 'person', maybe 24 weeks.

exactly, spot on

Seun:
So if a woman aborts her baby at 26 weeks, it follows that she has murdered a person. Do we sentence her to death or life imprisonment for murder in the first degree?

Murder is a specific legal term, it's not murder, but killing. Following the same logic, carrying out a death sentence or killing someone during a war is equally murder. Strictly speaking, she's not the one doing the killing. At that point in time the value of the life of the fetus should be weight against the consequences of continuing the pregnancy, e.g. not aborting would cause great harm to the health of the woman or the fetus is severly handicapped and would not have a life of value. Here one should abort only if the consequences of continuing the pregnancy would be worse than aborting

At the moment the fetus becomes a baby and could survive outside the womb, abortion should be out of the question, except if not aborting would mean the death of the woman

Just my opinion, guided by my ethical principles

kodewrita:
[SNIP]
@seun Overpopulation is a myth, what we have is mismanagement of resources and a reluctance by governments to see the real truth because it might involve changing whole lifestyles. If you support this then you have to support eugenics which believes in choosing humans based on certain physical characteristics selected as desirable (example: hitler's belief in a blond,strong race of aryans, chinese women's abortion of female children because of the one-child policy.). we can as well kill old people because they are no longer productive and are prone to diseases that will make life uncomfortabe to them, they are slow and are usually much of a hindrance in daily life and disaster situations(those are complaints by other people not me).
If you keep viewing humans as commodities or objects or things, that would be permissible but i believe we are more than that.

Overpopulation is not a myth. It is impossible to maintain the current lifestyle in the west, let alone export it to the rest of the world. The ecological footprint of the current homo sapiens is unsustainable. We are endangering the very survival of human life on this planet, unless of course you welcome it, because it brings rapture that much closer

I really would like to know where Seun objectified humans or viewed them as mere things. You put words in his mouth (e.g. you must support eugenics) that were certaily knowhere to be found in his contributions to this thread.

kodewrita:
@nferyn any human being is just a bundle of cells. so justifying abortion on the basis of that is not really valid.

Could you point out where I made that assertion?
I was talking about sentience, i.e. a living organism with the capacity to feel pain and to interact with it's environment.

ajsalako:
If God come first in ones life then abortion is out of the question. It is a selfish act.

Can you explain this POV? Assertion is no argument
Why is abortion out of the question if God comes first? Why is it a selfish act?

ajsalako:
If ones interest is only their own; then any action is valid.

And what's the purpose of this? Do you honestly believe that people that are pro choice are only interested in 'their own' and that as a consequence[i] 'any action is valid'[/i]? I really haven't met this stereotypical caricature person before, have you?

Seun:
At what exact point does the first cell that forms from the fusion of sperm and egg become a person?

Go back to the debate, a reasonable answer is given there: after 25 weeks the brain shows neural activity
[SNIP]

Seun:
If you say '3 months' does it mean that abortion of a 2 month 29 day old pregancy is wrong while abortion of a 3 month 1 day old pregnancy is ok? Or are you saying that it's all relative?

I don't know what you mean by relative. Everything and nothing is relative, can you be more specific?

Seun:
If your view is that it's all relative, then shouldn't the law give freedom to each mother to commit abortion based on her own view of when the baby she's carrying becomes a person?

No. this argument is similar to "If we cannot determine at what exact point spanking becomes child abuse, let's just let the parents decide that point, even if it's beating their childen so that they're cripple"

Seun:
Since we cannot determine the exact point at which the 'thing' becomes a 'person' then a pregnant woman should have the right to take the stand that until her baby is born it remains a 'thing' and she can abort 'it'.

In legal terms, they err on the side of caution: say that at 4 months the fetus is sentient and at 3 months it isn't. We know that the fetus starts to feel somewhere in between. The approach lawmakers take in such a case is erring on the side of caution and deciding that it is legal up to 2 months and 3 weeks

But please, we're not discussing something like just making a visit to the doctor. No woman will ever abort just like that, it's an experience that has serious psychological en physical consequences for the woman.

Seun:
[SNIP]
At the heart of this debate is whether an early stage fetus is a person or not. If you say it's not a person, then at what exact point does it become a person?

Indeed, and that's exactly what needs to be looked at.
Personally, I am of the opinion that early stage abortions are - although they should be avoided if at all possible - justifiable, because it does not involve a person. you have a person once the capacity to feel pain and to have sentient interaction (thus not purely mechanical stimulus-resonse) with the environment is possible. At that point, the value of the life of the baby and that of the mother and the people under her care needs to weighed against each other (e.g. carrying the baby to term would severely handicap the mother so that she can no longer take care of her existing children)

loveth:
It is totally a crime,no debating there.

Why not? There's a lot to debate and there are good arguments pro and con. Closing your mind and not even considering the arguments of others is a sure indication of prejudice.

I would urge you all to have a look at the two opposing points of view presented in the debate I linked to before: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=88699
It's the most comprehensive and honest debate on the subject I've seen to date. A far cry from the hollow debating points that are usually presented on the subject of abortion.

Sir Kay:
Abortion is pure murder of a soul, so it's a sin and must be avoided.

Don't let us justify things against God

This is not an argument. A soul is supposed to be eternal and cannot be murdered. You could make the argment that abortion is killing a human being, but then again, at what time does life start?

This is certainly not a black-or-white topic. I would never consider an abortion a crime, although I think it should be prevented as much as possible.
For all of you who have the time and intellectual curiosity, go and check out this link: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=88699

kazey:
Hmm I really don't want to start picking on what you said one by one but since you ask for something to read. please visit.

http://www.johntreed.com/Kiyosaki.html

it should be very educative i think

Very informative indeed. Bring on the salt ... Seems that he - as a person - is indeed full of crap.

I will continue the read and come back to topic once I've gone through the whole article.

But please, do pick on what I said, one can only learn from discussion

kazey:
Just two things, his real estate theories and stock theories, wouldnt even work the way he said it would, even in the USA.

I don't really know what you would call theories regarding real estate, but his postion that it is advisable to buy real estate for cash flow instead of capital gains is very doable actually, even with little money down. I actually did that when I moved to my new house: refinanced the old one to make it cash flow positive after taxes, maintenance, etc.

I can imagine that doing something like that in the US is even easier, as there are more credit facilities and the taxation on real estate is more profitable than e.g. in Belgium (20% on top of the purchase price goes to the title office, immediately, no tax credits except for mortage repayments).

kazey:
Dont tell me his theories on Option calls and puts, would work in a real stock market.

I don't know enough about that to have an informed opinion. I which book does he really develop a theory regarding option calls and puts as I could not find anything remotely similar to a theory in his 'Rich Dad's Guide to Investing'. I only found a very brief explanation of what Option calls and puts were, certainly nothing readily applicable.

That's actually the main argument I would have against his books: very little concrete, usable information but mostly focussing on the mental context of wealth acquisition.

kazey:
Or his buying a lot of estate houses is true? Kiyosaki made his money from the books and the Cashflow game, in short the Rich Dad company, not from the ventures he claimed to be involved in. Thats why I said he was full of crap.

I really don't have any information on whether 'walks the walk' as well. If you could give me sources that debunk his stories, I would be very interested though

kazey:
[SNIP]
I really don't understand why a lot of people out there, think anybody working for another person, must be an idiot, for making such a decision. I guess most have being reading too much Kiyosaki's book, I suppose. Kiyosaki, only deserves the credit for paradigm change not condeming the employees. Besides he is full of crap, I have read all his books.

I certainly haven't read that in the posts here, but concerning your postion on Kiyosaki, do you care to make an argument on why he is full of crap? Obviously, he is very US-centric, an not everything he proposes would work in another cultural context, but apart from that, I cannot see why he would be 'full of crap'

He certainly doesn't make the argument that everybody can - and should - start up his own business

joftech:
Nigerians should try to create an e-commerce market right here in Nigeria. With the use of Valucard and e-transact and even bank payments, we can develop our own bubbling e-commerce system here. China, India and some other countries have develop their own e-market.

I don't disagree. But that doesn't mean that you need to develop an internal market before you go international.
You also need to look at the purchasing power of your target market and I really wonder if Nigeria currently can offer a critical mass for most on line ventures

joftech:
The experience and acceptance gained by sellers and buyers can later be adapted to international e-commerce.

I don't really see how experience from one market immediately translates to another. Or maybe I'm misreading you?

joftech:
Nigeria has a bad reputation online. No body in his/her right sense will authorize any Nigrerian to deduct money from their credit card.

That's why currently, you need to work with foreign partners.

joftech:
The possibility of a big online market in Nigeria is very sound when you consider the huge population we have got, the only drawback to e-commerce break in Nigeria is/are the lack of infrastrutures that can facilitate smooth runnnings of e-commerce oprations.

I hope the Federal Government will pull through their plan of introducing a Nigeria based credit card.

There's a lot of if's here. I truly hope this materializes, but I wouldn't bank any money on this just yet

kazey:
[SNIP]
Except it is pay after product delivery shop, that might do the magic, who knows

Now you're (sort of) catching my drift. E.g. working with an overseas llc, that handles the Credit card payments (which are then insured).

I wouldn't mind carrying this on on PM if you're interested. I just think you read things between the lines that aren't there

kazey:
Now i can't stop laughing. Nigerians having an online mall to sell things to people overseas? Well they better don't use, the Products are from Nigeria label,

And honestly I would have to rest my case. I wonder which message boards, or where you would even get the mailing list (which might be considered) spam. Anywayz I better rest my case. People buying things from Nigerians using credit card. Brother It just wouldnt happen. Maybe after this generation . who knows

Well,

In that case I better rest my case as well. If you won't even consider the posibilities. Of course you don't spam message boards, mailing lists or usenet. That's exactly what you would do if you want to ruin your brand name. Spam has very specific characteristics that are very different from targeted promotion.

Obviously, the only possible trans-border e-commerce activities are 'shopping malls', where 419ers try to scam foreigners into buying inferior products? Is that what you're implying?

Also, try to read what I wrote before jumping to conclusions. I did introduce the concept of working with overseas partners, didn't I.

@ Kazey,

Hi,

I certainly don't want this to turn into a pissing contest (and I'm sure you don't want that either ). Please read exactly what I wrote. Nowhere did I say that there are no costs involved, nor that it is easy or that you are guaranteed success. The only thing that I said is that the costs of doing business over the internet are greatly reduced compared to similar ventures off line.
It is possible to reach markets beyond your place of residence, if you offer something of value (and I know for certain that there are enough things Nigeria offers that a world market may be interested in).
Now look at the possibilities of someone residing in Nigeria to reach world markets without the internet. the costs involved would be substantially higher wouldn't you agree.

Now, I'm not in Nigeria and therefore I did not have a good view on baseline operating costs, which seem to be substantially higher than what we have in Belgium (e.g. I have a 24/7 connection at 10Mbps down/ 512Kbps up @ 50€/month, including 50MB webspace & unlimited email-addresses - which I currently don't use). Obviously this is not for everyone.

The biggest problem I see, if you want to sell on line would be transaction clearing, shipping and payments (credit cards / paypall?) for which it would be necessary to have an overseas partner. And there come the money transfer costs on top of that. But this is not insurmountable, if you offer something worthwile and you can differentiate yourself in the market

Now back to your product or service: it only needs to be cheap (relatively, I would rather use the term 'offer value' than 'cheap') for your target market. Key is trust and here you need to make a long term investment - you probably won't have quick returns.

The main source I see of our failed communication on the subject is that you seem to be thinking about an internal Nigerian marketplace, while I'm thinking about Nigerians offering goods and/or services to a worldwide market.

Marketing wise, if you have a very specific target market, focus on that using message boards, mailing lists and focus on word of mouth communication and build brand trust. Takes longer, but is much more effective in the long run (good reference work: The Cluetrain Manifesto: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0738204315/qid=1127892542/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl/202-1739926-3627808)

Back to your opener, I never "claimed" to be involved in an on line business. I managed the startup process of several on line businesses, while working for a presence provider (e.g., we got the first Belgian jobboard up: http://www.jobscareer.be/ ).
I used to work for 2 presence providers in Belgium, Allmansland (which no longer exists) and The Reference (http://www.reference.be/) I actually have not been involved in the sector the last 4 years.

kazey:
This is not true, do your research on setting up a business online. Read on e-commerce related subjects.

I tend to disagree. And I have read on e-commerce related subjects. I have actually been involved in several of them.

Btw, I never meant to say that you do not need any capital, only that for similar types of markets it is much more expensive in a brick-and-mortar type of business

Bizkid:
I think you guys need to read some books! get this book Napoleon Hill- Laws of Success, Robert Kiyosaki - Rich dad Poor Dad and finally, Who moved my cheese.

I do agree. The books by Robert Kiyosaki and Napoleon Hill can be real mind openers.
One of the things Kiyosaki discusses is the context [/i]in which you operate.

I personally am coming out of a family of teachers. they draw a government salary and have never been introduced to the uglier sides of the economic theatre (this is not Nigeria, so they do receive their salaries ). They think as employees and everything in their actions shows that they live in an[i] employee context. So, as a youngster, I was never introduced to the entrepreneurial spirit and never even thought that I could start up something myself.

When I started working in one of first Internet companies (presence provider as they were called in these days) in Belgium (we're talking 1995 here), I started off as an employee. I helped the company I worked for to get to a situation of operational break even within 2 years (we grew from 3 employees to 26 during that time) - I was Operations Manager at that time and in charge of everything that wasn't sales or deep-technical stuff (mainly maintenace of connectivity and servers). Unfortunately, the mother company was expecting profit much quicker and they sold off the company to one of the main publishers in Belgium.

At that time I moved to the pioneering Internet company in Belgium and was the assistant Operations Managers in charge of production planning and coaching of the Project Managers.

I saw a lot of business opportunities being developed, but never even considered jumping in myself. Only recently, after meeting a lot of people with an entrepreneurial background, did it dawn on me that I had missed out on a lot of opportunities and I started to educate myself.

I'm currently busy developing a business plan and will start my ventures shortly. I'll keep you in the loop

Bizkid:
There is nothing wrong with/without education. It is what you do with your life that counts! As one guy said, Pastor Olumide emmanuel( to be precise) - you could either waste, spend or invest your life. One thing i Know is that education helps you to maximise opportunities!

Not only that, but do remember that the capital needs to start up a successful business are greatly reduced with the possibilities the internet offers. Nigerians have the opportunity to trade with the rest of the word without working through intermediaries against minimal cost. You that are on the forefront of the internet revolution in Nigeria can develop opportunities beyond what most would even think possible.

Think outside the box: distribution, logistics, world wide markets: what do you have that the world is interested in or more importantly could be interested in?

Guardian:
Kindly inform me of what the setup ( Kind of property - 3 bedroom x 4 multi-apartment, 1 single duplex, a storey building ) is

I would do a check on all the availables.

last but not least what area of Ketu. I leave around.

There were several properties I have seen, I will look up the details when at home:
- one big compound: 2 floors, 4 apartments, don't remember how many bedrooms.
- one smaller, duplex, 2 apartments
- one unfinished (2 floors, top floor not yet finished, 4 apartments), enough land to build an extra compound

The main thing here is that my wife got the information from a friend of hers. the only properties she currently got information from were in Ketu Quarters. This doesn't mean that we would not be interested in properties somewhere else.

The main criteria would be:
- quality of the area (close to business, infrastructure, utilities, roads, prone to erosion or flooding, etc)
- future appreciation value (is there development around, etc)
- vacancy rates (is it easy to rent them out and how quick do you find suitable tenants)

If you could give me some general information about Ketu Quarters, that would be greatly appreciated. As I pointed out before, we are not present and we'd like to get as much information from different sources as possible

Regards,

Niek

Seun:
[SNIP]...

- One wonders whether you're thinking of moving to Nigeria and why ...

I'm trusting that other members will be able to answer your questions.

Not immediately (maybe at retirement - or earlier if my business ideas work out). This would rather be an investment. Taking into account the demographic trends in Nigeria, and especialy Lagos, you should be able to get good appreciation of the properties

Niek

Hi,

My wife and I are thinking of buying a compound with multiple apartments in Lagos. We have seen video footage of a number of properties in the Ketu Quarters.

Can someone give me some general insight in the Real Estate market in Lagos.

As people with no direct interest in the transaction, maybe you can give some advice on (not exhaustive):

* which areas show good appreciation?
* what are the price ranges for different area's?
* are there any mortage facilities available?
* how exactly do you properly register your properties (and what steps need to be taken)?
* are there major infrastructure works going on/planned for Ketu Quarters?

We're currently just investigating the possibilities and are very new to the specif circumstances of real estate in Lagos (my wife left Nigeria 9 years ago). Any insight is very welcome

Regards,

Niek

Well

I have replied to some topics. I will post a topic of my own very soon

You're trying everything you can to increase the activity don't you?
I wouldn't worry though. If you see how the number of members goes up, you'll have all the activity you can cope with very soon

Niek

@Ginger
What exactly do you mean with not supporting it? Does it make you feel uneasy? Do you feel it's wrong? And if so, for what reason?

Under some circumstances getting a residence permit is a valid reason for marrying. People marry for all sorts of reasons and love is not always the first reason.

What I find distastefull is that obtaining a residence permit is the only reason to marry and that it is not made clear to the partner that that is the case. Conning someone into a marriage is dishonorable, because we're talking about a life long commitment and you may very well cause serious emotional harm to your marriage partner in the aftermath.

To put my own case in the picture: I know for sure that obtaining a residence permit was one of the reasons my wife chose to marry me, not that it was the most important one, but it certainly played in her head. We probaly would have waited a year longer to marry if it weren't for that element.

Now, we've always been frank to each other on the subject and I do not blame anyone to marry for that reasons, as long as there is honesty from both partners

It makes sense that you like the kind of people you encountered when you grew up. It is natural that you are attracted to the kind of people that were around you during your socialisation period.
So the point by WesleayanA is very valid

As far as the influence of the family is concerned, I think that in most cases, any kind of pressure coming from them to conform to the wishes of marrying within their race/tribe/culture will only backfire. Relationships are very personal and imposing norms in this area is negative behaviour. If you instill your children with truly positive values, they will make positive choices, without having to impose anything.

Be proud of yourself, your heritage, your background without demonising the others and your children will make positive lifechoices, whether they are the same as yours or not. If you are too closely guarding your own identity from outside influences, it can very well result in self hatred among your children

@nddy

In that case we're probably talking about a minority of the relationships, as most come from partners in unequal positions and these are at very least partially to obtain a valid residence permit.

@everybody
Anyway, when we're talking about real genuine relationships, I think my first reply still stands: the problems that arise are mainly cultural ones, not racial. It takes the willingness of both partners to make it work and they cannot let the family call the shots.

A problem I have encountered a few times is that even though someone is living in Europe, he/she still thinks primarily about building his/her life in Nigeria and invests /send all they have spare to Nigeria. Even though they're living in miserable conditions in Europe... everything to save face and let the family know all is well (even though in many cases these people are living worse lives than they were having in Nigeria)