pilgrim.1:

Thank you for keeping it simple this time around.

Thank you. But that's at best a trite observation. In absolute terms, I always keep it simple. In relative terms - to you that is - I'm a paragon of simplicity, in pretty much every way !

pilgrim.1:

I simply wanted to know what you see in the WORD; and not what you feel about the question.

Not really, your approach is one of loaded teasers. If the word was your concern, you would quite simply quote and expound it as you understand and let me respond. If you post questions, I'll respond to questions, if you post scripture I'll respond to scripture. Your monolectic approach means you always insist on framing the discussion on your own terms. And in a most harping, mean-spirited and supercillous way I might add  .

So your question re "types" says nothing to me about NTC life. But still I attempted to humour you and respond as posed, whilst at the same time outlining my position. If that displeases you, tough. Heat, kitchen my dear.

I see giving as primarily driven by need (and to bless). One does not say "I'm giving money - directly - to God in/as worship, just like one wouldn't slaughter a goat. I understand there are some who share their food with household idols. Tell me, do the idols eat it? So I don't think my use of the term "pagan" was far off the mark.

So Acts 17v25 is indeed core to what we are discussing. And you are being the queen of assertive denials to say otherwise.

Further John 4v24-25 introduces the concept of worshipping God in spirit and in truth. James 2:15 talks about ministering to those destitute of daily need; physically, not in word but in truth and in deed.

You yourself introduced this verse;
Hebrews 13:16 - But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

This is clearly saying that an act of kindness or sharing (communicating, giving) to others in need is considered a sacrifice. Is that directly to God? or is God the recipient of your "good turn". So if giving (or doing good to others) is worship, and is a sacrifice, what does it avail to attempt to classify it and tabulate associated benefits? Man-made religion at it's most dire !

Giving is indeed a worship response, but everything a NTC does out of love for and in obedience too God is. To try and validate or add import to tithing as a worship response is spin.

Your needless recouse to taxonomical giving is - and I repeat - mindlessly ritualistic at best. And no doubt cover to coerce the unaware amongst God's people to assume that giving to ministers is de rigeur and blessed without any consideration to context.

I guess I got out of the wrong side of bed this morning huh?

God bless
TV

@TV01,

TV01:

Thank you. But that's at best a trite observation. In absolute terms, I always keep it simple. In relative terms - to you that is - I'm a paragon of simplicity, in pretty much every way !

I don't want to go into all that just now. In one word, you're as complicated as anything I've checked out in ages. It took you more than 45 entries both ways to offer simple straight answers to the same questions repeated endlessly - and you call that 'paragon of simplicity'? Please.

TV01:

Not really, your approach is one of loaded teasers. If the word was your concern, you would quite simply quote and expound it as you understand and let me respond. If you post questions, I'll respond to questions, if you post scripture I'll respond to scripture. Your monolectic approach means you always insist on framing the discussion on your own terms. And in a most harping, mean-spirited and supercillous way I might add .

Thanks for the accolades. It's early morning, and I'd not want to bring out my dreaded baton just yet.

However, I asked simple questions because I noticed your penchant for bloviates and assertive denials. What those questions were aimed at was simply this: to help me know exactly where you stood before making any comments at all. Aside from your dramatist attitude of a 'grandfather' of this thread, I've posted my persuasions at length, answered all of your questions, and yet again offered more questions to help you sort out your misconceptions. You simply went the political route of driblling around your own goalpost.

TV01:

So your question re "types" says nothing to me about NTC life. But still I attempted to humour you and respond as posed, whilst at the same time outlining my position. If that displeases you, tough. Heat, kitchen my dear.

You simply tried to blow smoke in my face. Are there different types of GIVING in the Bible? If what you've been sweating to say with tongue in cheek all this time is a clear big NO, then I'd know what next to do. You're circling round the question, hoping that I'd waste more scholarship on you to shame yourself further and then come whimpering that I was misquoting you.

TV01:

I see giving as primarily driven by need (and to bless). One does not say "I'm giving money - directly - to God in/as worship, just like one wouldn't slaughter a goat. I understand there are some who share their food with household idols. Tell me, do the idols eat it? So I don't think my use of the term "pagan" was far off the mark.

If you want to discuss paganism, please oblige me. This is exactly the kind of desperation that I've been asking you to shed for a responsible discussion. Did I ask you any questions about paganism, TV01? You mentioned that (ever so witty but not smart) perhaps as a deflection. Now that I've asked that you cleared that issue and keep to exactly what is being discussed, you've been clutiching that as the nicest thing since sliced bread! Please, TV01. . . leave the pagans and their stuff - come back to this thread, aight?

TV01:

So Acts 17v25 is indeed core to what we are discussing. And you are being the queen of assertive denials to say otherwise.

Okay, no problem to me at all. As long as you can show me in that passage that the apostle was dealing with the question of offerings and tithes to make it core to what we're discussing.

TV01:

Further John 4v24-25 introduces the concept of worshipping God in spirit and in truth. James 2:15 talks about ministering to those destitute of daily need; physically, not in word but in truth and in deed.

Further desperation, or mere rehearsals for another nervous breakdown? If I've tried to argue assertively to deny those verses, please show HOW, WHERE and WHY so. If worshipping in 'spirit and in truth' is saying that we should NOT tithe of GIVE financially, or that such a verse substitutes and throws out the argument of ANY giving at all, then I'd see your point. It is just as well to start quoting hundreds of verses about worship that say nothing at all about GIVING - and I really don't see how you've strengthened your argument by being so desperate. Please show me how.

TV01:

You yourself introduced this verse;
Hebrews 13:16 - But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

Yes I did - and that does not have a bearing on GIVING, TV01?

TV01:

This is clearly saying that an act of kindness or sharing (communicating, giving) to others in need is considered a sacrifice. Is that directly to God? or is God the recipient of your "good turn". So if giving (or doing good to others) is worship, and is a sacrifice, what does it avail to attempt to classify it and tabulate associated benefits? Man-made religion at it's most dire !

Because you ave poor reading skills, the point is not obvious to you, so that you're sunding even more beggarly in your summation. Think on this - to whom is the sacrifice appertaining to in Heb. 13:16? Are you OFFERING a "sacrifice" to MAN or to GOD? I just want to know how shallow you see things so I know how to take this class for your level.

TV01:

Giving is indeed a worship response, but everything a NTC does out of love for and in obedience too God is. To try and validate or add import to tithing as a worship response is spin.

You're not amusing enough for a slot in Comedy Central! What hypocrisy! You have scampered away from that phrase, and now found it convenient to apply it to your miserly idea, right? What other comic do you have in your bag or tricks?

TV01:

Your needless recouse to taxonomical giving is - and I repeat - mindlessly ritualistic at best. And no doubt cover to coerce the unaware amongst God's people to assume that giving to ministers is de rigeur and blessed without any consideration to context.

Yada-yada. Leave readers to make up their minds - just simply answer the question. And if I should take the "mindlessly ritualistic" as your answer to the question, would that be saying "NO", there really isn't any distinctions of types of GIVING in the Bible (OT & NT)?

I've said before: what you feel about me is inconsequential to this discussion. And if you can't get done with that, don't sob to your cubicle when you read stuff about you in mine.

TV01:

I guess I got out of the wrong side of bed this morning huh?

I don't know - we don't share the same room!

Morning Pilgrim.1,

Are you going to post something we can discuss, or are you trying to set some kind of record for a "meaningless words uttered before lunchtime"?

I'd just say for now that people should be encouraged to tithe. It is not presented as a LEGALISTICALLY MANDATED or COERCED exercise, or a COMPULSION for the Christian. You'd be simply amazed how God doesn't FORCE it upon His children, but yet declares it as part of our New Covenant worship. That is why I started off by asking just two simple questions to help us think on this:

Regards a statement in your post - #1067 - above, and particularly the part highlighted in red, would you be so kind as to explain in detail - and no we are not talking doctorate thesis ! - exactly how "God declares tithing as part of NCW"

pilgrim.1:

I don't know - we don't share the same room!

What have I told you about women taking the lead ? If you are angling for a date, I suggest you show more Sarah and less Eve. By the way, can you cook ?

God bless
TV

My dear TV01,

TV01:

Morning Pilgrim.1,

Are you going to post something we can discuss, or are you trying to set some kind of record for a "meaningless words uttered before lunchtime"?

I'm waiting on you to oblige me simple enough answers to the few questions I offered. But if that is not necessary because you would rather not, then I'll take some time over the weekend and post something more in addition to what I previously did. Fair enough?

TV01:

Regards a statement in your post - #1067 - above, and particularly the part highlighted in red, would you be so kind as to explain in detail - and no we are not talking doctorate thesis ! - exactly how "God declares tithing as part of NCW"

I'll do so - no bother. Following the request above.

TV01:

What have I told you about women taking the lead ? If you are angling for a date, I suggest you show more Sarah and less Eve. By the way, can you cook ?

Somebody call the fire department! You're such a spoil-sport - just when I was beginning to melt towards you, you raise Moses' striking rod! How then do you expect me to cook like Sarah? Okay, for the record, there are some others . . . kncok them twice over and let water gush from their heads - then I might put on my aprons!

Hasn't this gone on for too long.

If you believe in tithe, tithe, if not give and forget it.

Big Deal!!!

somze:

If you believe in tithe, tithe, if not give and forget it.

Lol. . . I wonder.

pilgrim.1:

I'm waiting on you to oblige me simple enough answers to the few questions I offered. But if that is not necessary because you would rather not, then I'll take some time over the weekend and post something more in addition to what I previously did. Fair enough?

Fair enough.

pilgrim.1:

I'll do so - no bother. Following the request above.

Fairer still.

pilgrim.1:

there are some others . . . kncok them twice over and let water gush from their heads - then I might put on my aprons!

No problem, consider it done. So what's for dinner ? _{And presumably I won't have to digest one of your lengthy tomes before I eat ?}

God Bless
TV

Hmmmhh!!  I thought you two were discussing tithing!  But I get confused the more, after all "the way of a man with a maid. . . who can understand?"  No be me talk that one o, na Solomon (Prov 30 vs 18-19).

Blessings.

Analytical:

Hmmmhh!! I thought you two were discussing tithing! But I get confused the more, after all "the way of a man with a maid. . . who can understand?" No be me talk that one o, na Solomon (Prov 30 vs 18-19).

Abeg bro' don spoil my show . _{If we 'gree, maybe you can be best man and TayoD can give the sermon !}

TV01:

Abeg bro' don spoil my show . _{If we 'gree, maybe you can be best man and TayoD can give the sermon !}

You've lost it

Ahem gentlemen. . .

TV01, dinner was served, and you were conspicuously absent from the table.

Analytical, I'm not surprised you'd just breeze in briefly to turn the tables. Good sport, though. . . how bodi?

somze. . . lol, you can't be that serious. We never even arrange the size of the engagement ring, and you just pronounce verdict! Well, it's all good. _{Shows TV01 has more eyes watching him closely especially in reference to what that wise King said in Proverbs 30.18 & 19.}

_______

Anyway, I'll take time to come post a bit more substance on the topic so we can keep it alive. Cheers all.
'


'
'

bikonu where is davidylan.
Has seun done it again?

@pilgrim
Just monitoring the thread dear and taking notes

Babyosisi
na so we see am o. I just dey watch 2 of them since

What's cookin'? TV is ravenous !

Hello Fellows,

1. I'm a Christian who believe in God

Please I'm wondering where in the Bible did Christ taught about "Tithe" if it's so important as our pastors potray it these days?

I have open mind to learn please, I've heard from 99% Pastors that if I don't pay Tithe, then God will not Bless me as much as those who pay Tithe? Did Christ mention anything about the consequences of not Paying Tithe? So is this one of the Jewish laws which has lived till date or what?

I just read people's argument about tithing being in the old testament, so why don't we offer goats and ram to God these days, at least that one self dey old testament, init?

Peace Out!

Let me resume by asking a simple question here:

What do we understand by this text:

1 Cor. 9:13 & 14
"Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel."

Study it carefully - you might find answers there.

Allta

Whether or not you tithe, you are blessed for being a Christian. Jesus did not ask us to tithe because that is not what He was about. In fact it is reasonable to think that Jesus Himself probably never tithed since He did not fall into the category of those whom the tithe was for. He commands us to give --- in particular to help the needy, widows, orphans and other underprivileged folk. That does not mean we should not give when we attend "church"; but what we give should be dictated by our own conscience --- knowing our own personal circumstance. That is why 2 Cor 9:6 says we should give as we purpose in our hearts.

Don't let anyone brainwash you or, worse, scare you into "tithing" as they teach it i.e. give it to the pastor (because that is what it boils down to); it is false teaching and a lie.

Give what you can afford in church and try to help the needy. Finish.

Enigma:

Don't let anyone brainwash you or, worse, scare you into "tithing" as they teach it i.e. give it to the pastor (because that is what it boils down to); it is false teaching and a lie.

Don't use your own lies to play God. If you don't understand issues clearly from the WORD, simply offer the advice you can, and don't try pretending that your own fallacy is the truth.

Is it possible that we could limit ourselves to just the gospels in discussing this tithe matter?

Otokx

What you will find is that the Gospels do not really deal with "tithes"/"tithing", apart from passing references, becasue it is irrelevant to the Christian.

Sustainace of the work of GOd they say it depends on tithe.

I said it over and over again that it is stealing by method.

@ Otokx

Is it possible that we could limit ourselves to just the gospels in discussing this tithe matter?

So, is it wrong to follow those things Christ and the Apostles said and preached about, ofcourse he himself said he's not here to destroy the mosaic laws, but if Tithe/Tithing is very important that there is no account that Jesus himself tithed, what's the fuss about it then. Can someone who believe in Tithe tell me what will happen to me if I don't "Tithe" but give offerings to the Church and the Needy? Did your answer connote to what happened to Christ and the Disciples, because there is no account that they also tithed.

He spoke about tax though, I think I can safely assume that the tax he spoke about is not same as tithe we're referring to ,  in that place where he said, "Give unto Ceasar, what is Ceasars, and Unto God, what is God's". From another point of view, someone might say, Christ didn't come to destroy the old testament laws, like Tithe, burnt offerings etc., so why didn't Christ offer burnt offerings as in killing Goats/Ram/Sheep as accounted in the Old testament, why don't Pastors preach "Burnt Offering" as much as they preach "Tithe"

What you will find is that the Gospels do not really deal with "tithes"/"tithing", apart from passing references, becasue it is irrelevant to the Christian.

I wouldn't say it's irrelevant here, I would say it's not COMPULSORY, something can be irrelevant and still not compulsory, but why make irrelevant things COMPULSORY. Pastors tell me, if you don't pay tithe, Bugs will eat up my FINANCIAL POCKETS! , now how true is that? The only thing I believe in is Thanksgiving, Offerings in the Lord and to the Needy, I really want to get my head round this Tithe issue, but still yet to be convinced.

Please guys, I'm not being skeptical, I just want to learn and make sure I'm learning the right thing,  no hard feelings to the Pastors in our midst ,

Peace Out!

Alta, maybe you are right that "irrelevant" is not the most appropriate expression.

Nevertheless, tithing is not applicable to the Christian and certainly not compulsory.

pilgrim.1:

Let me resume by asking a simple question here:

That's is your preferred modus operandi; ask a seemingly "simple" question. But in truth and true to form, you are really setting the scene for you own - and glaringly obvious - traditional or denominational bias. Even if one answers the question - different to your prejudice - you'll just ride roughshod over it.

Never actually spell out a position for comment, but insinuate by slyly worded teasers that you possess some esoteric knowledge or understanding of scripture, when in fact your are sadly misled.

pilgrim.1:

What do we understand by this text:

You are not really interested in what we understand are you? It's just a poser to enable you to ram your position down everyone's throats.

pilgrim.1:

1 Cor. 9:13 & 14
"Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel."

The first part is a reference to the OT/Jewish worship form. The levitical Priesthood was primarily supported by the tithe.

The second part pertains to Christian practice. First note that it is those that "PREACH". This is in the sense of them being itinerant and unable to maintain a regular income providing activity as was Paul's circumstance and that of many labouring to fulfil the apostolic foundation of the church. Note, that when he could work, he did, and at a level far below his training and pedigree.

If anyone is engaged in a ministry that presents the same or similar circumstances, they should be supported at an appropriate level by the body.

Those who minister in local congregations should work like everyone else. That is the Lords charge. If they don't, or choose not to, it is not the congregations responsibility to support them. And in any event, not in any way different from any other member of the congregation who has physical needs.

There is no clergy/laity - leader/follower - split in NTC. There is no call for paid ministry in the local congreagation.

Should help nail the celebrity circuit of hirelings who roam from venue to venue with their "product led", "pseudo-Christianity" ~ ministry to "singles", "healing" "prosperity" etc.

If you do it for money - except in the rare circumstances as I outlined above - you're a hirleing or a 'ho.

pilgrim.1:

Study it carefully - you might find answers there.

Likewise.

God bless
TV

I strongly believed dat paying one's tithe is biblical and it is a commandment from the Almight God. God says bring all your tithe and offering into my house and see if i will not open the gate of Heavenly blessings unto you. For someone to be prosper in this world dat person needs to strictly obey the commandment of God.

@ AbiodunAde

I strongly believed that paying one's tithe is biblical and it is a commandment from the Almight God. God says bring all your tithe and offering into my house and see if i will not open the gate of Heavenly blessings unto you. For someone to be prosper in this world that person needs to strictly obey the commandment of God.

Is this a known fact or what, that will probably depend on your defination of prosperity, the dictionary defines it as a successful, flourishing, or thriving condition, esp. in financial respects or good fortune. So what you're saying is if I don't keep his commandment, I can't prosper? Na wa for una self, as a Christian I don't belief this, you don't have to be a Christian to propser in life my brother ,  some of the world's richest and prosperous people don't even believe in God. As an example, isn't Dangote Prosperous? Does he keep the "Christian's God's" commandments? except if you're saying I don't have to be a Christian to keep his commandments ? Please clarify

If you want me to understand that Tithe is part of God's Commandment, so I should do it, then you'll have to make me understand that I should offer Goat/Ram/Sheep to God as Burnt Offering, because that is also part of his "Old Testament" commandments? Abi?

As far as I understand:-
1. Tithe is Biblical because it's in the Bible, so also is "Burnt Offerings", Burnt Offering is also Biblical, init?
2. It's not wrong to Pay Tithes, I never said it is oO! please don't quote me wrongly
3. Offering & Thanksgiving is very very very Important and I do it every time I go to Church without my pastor's knowledge.

Issue:
1. Is Tithe Compulsory? What will happen to me if I don't. There are Christians who don't pay Tithe and are very Prosperous, there are non-Christians who are properous and don't obey God's commandments. If I'm going to start paying tithes, then for now, that will have to be due to the "fear" my pastor has instill in me rather than the WORD itself. I don't want to be doing something because my Pastor scared me to, I want to do it because I have to. As a Christian I know if I don't keep God's commandment, then I can't have a Christianic Relationship with him, but I'm struggling to know what will happen to me if I don't pay Tithe? ANYONE?

Peace Out!

The man did not understand the quotations, because that is what they use

Enigma:

Otokx

What you will find is that the Gospels do not really deal with "tithes"/"tithing", apart from passing references, becasue it is irrelevant to the Christian.

Actually, the Gospels deal with tithes and tithing much more than in 'passing references' - and the fact that it is relevant to the Christian Faith is underscored by the fact that the epistles deal with them as well.

The idea that TITHES are irrelavant to Christians is simply because those who are opposed to it have not carefully studied the subject nor have the discipline to acknowledge what God's WORD teaches about it.

Hnd-holder:

Sustainace of the work of GOd they say it depends on tithe.

I said it over and over again that it is stealing by method.

Since you're a Grail follower (or "crossbearer", if you don't understand a matter, would it not be best that you observed and not say things that don't bless you or your readers?

I Corinthians 9:7-14

7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges?
who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof?
or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?

8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth
of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt,
this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that
he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall
reap your carnal things?

12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather?
Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should
hinder the gospel of Christ.

13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple?
and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained
that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

For those who have NOT seen the matter of tithes in th NEW TESTAMENT for Christians, this is a straight forward passage to help them do so. Of course there are more; but as time goes on we may have occasion to see it.

However, let's understand that the apostle's argument here can be delineated into three easy particulars for easy reference:

(a) tithes even as taught in the law are NOT denounced for the Christian

(b) God will not force it upon any believer who is averse to it

(c) tithes are not a matter in God's WORD to castigate and besmirch ministers

I'll try and take them up subsequently.

Let's take them individually and also discuss some other issues:


A. Tithes NOT Abrogated by Law for CHRISTIANS

I do not mind those who have a problem with my asking questions; but I wonder if they see at all that Scripture also poses questions in the matter being discussed. What was the apostle wanting us to grasp from the SEVEN questions he offered just 4 short verses (vss. 7-10)? The strong points he sought to establish may include the following:

(i) Receiving tithes and offerings from Christians is a legitimate NT engagement.

Why is this so? Verse 7 offers this question to help us see the point: ". . . who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?" Is this what anyone would call 'fleecing' God's people? Certainly not; unless such people are directly accusing Paul of making a case for [i]fleecing[/] Christians. We understand that Christians are called God's 'flock' whom ministers of the Gospel 'feed' (cf. Acts 20:28).

I am often encouraged by verse 8, because Paul made it clear that he was not stating issues here as a matter of men's opinions ('say I these things as a man?') - and that is why 'opinions' do not interest me in the least, especially when those expressing them often have no answers in their arguments to simply stated questions. To even strengthen this, the second part of vs. 8 asks a pivotal question: "or saith not the law the same also?". A question for those having problems with the Law: Since Christians have "nothing" to do with the Law, WHY was the apostle bringing in the Law here in the second part of this verse?

He even goes on in verse 9 to state precisely that he was referring to "the Law of Moses"; but more than that, he uses a scripture from there (Deut. 25:4) to further drive home his point, before asking yet two further questions: "Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes?" (vss. 9b & 10a). He uses the Law of Moses, instead of disregarding it altogether, to establish this point - that, receiving tithes and offerings from Christians is a legitimate NT engagement. He argues that the text he quoted from the OT was written "for our sakes, no doubt" (vs. 10).

Yet, what exactly was the principle he was setting forth at this point? We find it in verse 11: "If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?" This is where I've repeatedly offered (and still offer) my friends a gentle caution: before you refer to ministers of the Gospel as 'thieves', think about this verse. Did God call them such derisive terms?

When Paul mentioned the very same thing to Timothy, encouraging him concerning the elders (who 'feed' the 'flock' - Acts 20:28) that "the labourer is worthy of his reward" (1 Tim. 5:17-18), was Paul encouraging anyone to refer to such leaders as "thieves"? Where do people who have lost their humulity get the idea that ministers who receive tithes and offerings from Christians are 'fleecing' the flock, or 'stealing in the name of tithes and offerings'? You see, it is so much easier slander others when such people have never actually seen what God is saying.

We come now to the second point:

B God Does NOT Force TITHES on Anyone Who is Averse To It

1 Cor. 9:12
12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather?
Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should
hinder the gospel of Christ.

Even though the apostle establishes his case from the Law of Moses, he nevertheless expresses that he had not made it legally obligatory on anyone to give him any offering or tithes. It may seem a parodox of sorts, but it is not. Rather, he made it his own choice "to suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ." Others may use such legitimacies ("others be partakers of this power over you"); but he does not express any hint of jealousy or envy towards them - because he already recognized that it was their legitimate privilege as given in God's WORD! He even encouraged Timothy to ensure that the elders are legitimately cared for when he mentioned the very same thing in 1 Tim. 5:17-18.

When we read this question again "If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather?", we come to understand that he was clearly establishing the rights or priviledges that belong to those who are ministers of the Gospel. Go back to vss. 3 & 4: "Mine answer to them that do examine me is this, Have we not power to eat and to drink?" The word 'power' is exousia, and refers to the "right" that belongs to someone by official capacity to participate in an office or event. It is used also in Heb. 13:10 - "We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle." All these demonstrate that it is the legitimate 'right/privilege' of ministers to receive sustenance from the tithes and offerings of Christians as well.

However, we come closer now to the crucial point: does the NT instructs Christians to tithe? I believe it does - and that's what the following verses deal with.

(13) Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they
which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? (14) Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which
preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

It is obvious that when the apostle made the statement in verse 13 above, he clearly had the OT in mind and was referring to the priests and Levites who ministered in Temple services (cf. Num.16:9). Their sustenance was not merely from tithes alone, but rather included a whole lot of other types of offerings which they received as well from those to whom they ministered. This is clear by the separate mention of these two things: they (a) live of the things of the Temple; and (b) partakers with the altar. Of course, these matters included tithes (Heb. 7:5) - and a whole lot more, such as the firstfruits (Deut. 18:4-5), and other offerings (Num. 5:9-10). This is why Malachi 3:8 sums it in just two words: "tithes and offerings".

What then is the import of the apostle's statement in 1 Cor. 9:14 - "EVEN SO hath the Lord ORDAINED that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel"? There are three things that come to our attention here:

(1) the phrase "even so" is used in the Greek construct to indicate what was being mentioned in the preceding lines in verse 13. What this means is that Paul was establishing the fact that tithes and offerings (as the OT priests and Levites received) were ORDAINED by the Lord in the NT as well. This is not the only place where such constructs are used; but it is a perculiar one in which the speaker does not refer to the detail literarily, but rather to the principle in what he points out.

Another place we find an example of such a construct is in Peter's preaching in Acts 2:16 where he says "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel" and relates Pentecost to the exact fulfillment of Joel's prophecy. When we turn to Joel 2, we find that some of the very same things which were mentioned as quoted by Peter in Acts 2:19-20 were not literarily fulfilled at Pentecost, but the Spirit was poured out that very day! Peter yet emphatically declares, "this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel"!

In the same way, when the apostle Paul uses the cluase "EVEN SO" in 1 Cor. 9:14, he was simply referring to tithes and offerings - and this very fact is underscored in other texts where he emphatically declares the same thing (1 Tim. 5:17-18).


(2) This is NOT an option or a suggestion to the Christian life - for it is clearly affirmed as an ORDINANCE in the NT for Christians! The Lord ordained it as such, which gives it its clear imprint as a commandment. If anyone still wonders about the initial question I offered in entering this thread about "any scriptural command obliging any kind of giving at all in the NT", this is the verse I'd like them to consider. Although my question was NEVER answered, I've now offered a direct text for to. However, I also noted that:

"tithing is not a matter of "REQUIRED" (lest people see it as asking that it is a matter of "COERCION" and "COMPULSION"."

It is important that I made that distinction from the onset, so that we may not mistake an "ordinance" for "required" (i.e., COERCION, or COMPULSION). Although the Lord ordained it, He does not coerce or compel anyone to give their tithes. The principle here is that the Lord would always have our hearts in a healthy state when we bring our offerings and tithes - and that principle is an attitude of WILLINGNESS, and it is the one thing that we find in both the OT and NT of those who responded to God's commandment (or 'ordinance') on this matter:

OT - Exo. 35:29
"The children of Israel brought a willing offering unto the LORD, every man and woman,
whose heart made them willing to bring for all manner of work, which the LORD had commanded
to be made by the hand of Moses.

NT - 2 Cor. 8:12
"For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath,
and not according to that he hath not."


(3) This 'ordinance' by the Lord that those who preach the Gospel should live by it is the responsibility of Christians to ministers. There is no denying the fact that this is so, as is underscored in other verses. In mentioning the very same issue in 1 Tim. 5:17-18, Paul clearly said 'The labourer is worthy of his hire'. This should not mean that the primary goal of ministry should be material and financial gain (for such is discouraged elsewhere - 'not greedy of filthy lucre', 1 Tim. 3:3).

However, if anyone wonders about the Christian altar in this connection, we can find it in Heb. 13:10 - "We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle." Those being referred to here as serving the tabernacle and having no right to the Christian altar are the Levites of the OT:

Num. 3:7-8 & 7:5
"And they shall keep his charge, and the charge of the whole congregation before the tabernacle
of the congregation, to do the service of the tabernacle. And they shall keep all the instruments
of the tabernacle of the congregation, and the charge of the children of Israel, to do the service
of the tabernacle. . . Take it of them, that they may be to do the service of the tabernacle of
the congregation; and thou shalt give them unto the Levites, to every man according to his service.

However, if we carefully consider what Heb. 13:10 is implying, it's clear that Christian ministers do have an alter to partake (or, to "eat" from. Paul already asked a question towards this end: "Have we not power to eat and to drink?" (1 Cor. 9:4) - in other words, did they not have the legitimate right to such? "If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather?" (vs. 12).

We could offer so many verses in the NT to further explicate the issues being brought out here. However, the preceding all go to demonstrate that Paul was actually referring to tithes and offerings in 1 Cor. 9 - and he does so by categorically referring to the very same matters on the subject as found in the OT.