To Tithe or Not to Tithe? - Christianity Etc (37) - Nairaland
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| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by Hndholder(m): 10:05am On Aug 17, 2007 |
@pilgrim.1 Dear lovely one let us keep to tithe or not to tithe. Interpolation of ideas will not help since we are not in court of law. What do you think. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by TV01(m): 11:58am On Aug 17, 2007 |
Pilgrim.1, If I were to say your understanding was basic, I would be being kind. Actually it's twisted, along with your logic. As Enigma has rightly pointed out on the other thread, you are a contortionist, not disimilar to the convoluted I was moved to use earlier. (a) Did Paul or any of the apostle ever refer categorically to any part of the LAW for Christian life?Did they refer to the Law? YES! Where they attempting to incorporate parts into NTC? NO! The Law has been fulfilled. Which was one of the main planks of the Lords work. Judaizers such as yourself always seek recourse to the law to bind men to their man-made religion. As circumcision was the metaphor for the Mosaic law in the epistle to the Galatians, so the tithe is here. Did I say basic earlier? Christian righteousness is never established by keeping laws or any other outward ritual. Keeping the Law justifies no one. Attempting to keep it in part compels one to keep it in whole and seeking righteousness by the law means one falls from grace. That alone is reason enough for me to keep rebutting your C&C theology long after any semblance of integrity and coherence has vanished from your posts on this issue. Is the Law good and holy and just? YES, are NTC bound by it or do they attain to righteousness by adhering to it? NO! The misunderstanding around this is used by many religionists to bind the unknowing. Please desist. Like I have said your end game was apparent from the first whistle. To justify a man-made laity/clergy - follower/leader - split, said clergy being supported by taking money from the flock of God. Well described by Paul as using the gospel as a "cloak for covetousness". Paul likened it to "building what he had previously destroyed". You are trying to call relevent what God has made redundant. God bless TV |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by MP007(m): 4:22am On Aug 18, 2007 |
dont rob God, title self na investment, its like u investing in God, gezz, u sow like , |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by Gmoney5(m): 2:08am On Aug 19, 2007 |
@poster I am quoting the Amplified version for easier understanding. Also, I am showing several verses so you can see where Jesus started talking: Luke 11: 37Now while Jesus was speaking, a Pharisee invited Him to take dinner with him, so He entered and reclined at table. 38The Pharisee noticed and was astonished [to see] that Jesus did not first wash before dinner. 39But the Lord said to him, Now you Pharisees cleanse the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside you yourselves are full of greed and robbery and extortion and malice and wickedness. 40You senseless (foolish, stupid) ones [acting without reflection or intelligence]! Did not He Who made the outside make the inside also? 41But [dedicate your inner self and] give as donations to the poor of those things which are within [of inward righteousness] and behold, everything is purified and clean for you. 42But woe to you, Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every [little] herb, but disregard and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done without leaving the others undone. Vers 42 in KJV - But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Jesus is plainly telling them that "Tithing, they ought to have done but not leave other things undone." So Jesus didn't preach a sermon on it but He referenced it. But remember, God loves a cheerful giver. If you can't release your tithes & offering cheerfully (because you love God), then just go ahead and buy yourself a happy meal with the dough. ---Don't hate the messenger---- |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by Hndholder(m): 8:21am On Aug 20, 2007 |
REflecions "But woe to you, Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every [little] herb, but disregard and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done without leaving the others undone. Luke 11:42 True words ----Posted by: G-money |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by dav700: 8:33am On Aug 20, 2007 |
tithing is an eternal law in the everlasting kingdom of christ so, from ages past to ages to come its compulsory! |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by Hndholder(m): 8:44am On Aug 20, 2007 |
dav700:For you it is compulsory and for others like you. It should also be compulsory for same group to offer their bunt offerings too like people of the old because it it Biblical. If your right hand made you to sin --Cut it off it is internal law too. So that your eyes you use to look at a woman lustfully must be surgically removed. Some may need to offer their son as a sacrefice too. Why only monetary issue alone that is compulsory? Stealing by method. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by TV01(m): 10:39am On Aug 20, 2007 |
G-money:Two thing too lay what is a common misunderstanding to rest 1. The Lord was addressing Pharisees - Jews living under the law of Moses - at a time that the law was still in effect, as He had not by His death fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law on behalf of all those who put their faith in Him and His saving work. He could not have told them to break the law or His mission would have been aborted as He would have been an accomplice/instigator to a transgression of the very law He came to fulfill - by living it perfectly and then dying - for us all. 2. The Lord noted that they tithed "herb" - agricultural/farmland products - never money. And in any event, the needy, the dispossesed and the disenfranchised were more of a priority in Gods thoughts, not some mindless ritual based on 10% His thrust was the intent of the law not the letter. A point Pharisees, legalists and Judaizers never really get. You cannot look to the law as you are not Jewish. And if you do, you cannot be Christian. Seek Gods face in this, do not be bound and robbed of your liberty by the traditions of men. They would have you zealous for them by excluding you by law. It supports their man-made religious structures with them at the apex giving covering? It's why people come onto NL and say tragic things like "MOGS, Prophets, Pastoers etc etc are the mouthpiece of God or Gods spokesmen". In this day and age? after the complketed and perfect work at the cross?? God bless TV |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by TV01(m): 10:43am On Aug 20, 2007 |
dav700:Presumably the Angels tithe? along with the 4 & 24 elders. Sarcasm apart, do you have any scriptural backing for this? or is it just the usual parroted MOGbunkum? God bless TV |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by Hndholder(m): 12:39pm On Aug 20, 2007 |
www.shouldthechurchteachtithing.com "Second Chronicles 31 and Nehemiah, prepared you for the study of Malachi. This chapter will give evidence from God’s Word that the tithing texts from Malachi 3:8-10 have been interpreted and applied incorrectly by the majority of the Christian church. It will show that those who are guilty of robbing God in Malachi 3:8 are the ministering priests and not the people. Consequently, those cursed in Malachi 3:9 are the priests who are cursed for breaking the Old Covenant. When compared to Numbers 18:21-24 and Nehemiah 10:37b, the usual interpretation of “bring the whole tithe into the storehouse” has been turned into a terrible lie which, for the decency of God’s truth and for the good of Christ’s church, must stop immediately. Malachi is only four (4) short chapters, many have never read it completely in one sitting. For the sake of clarity, I plead with you to carefully and prayerfully read all four chapters after reading this paragraph. While you are reading, ask yourself these questions, “To whom is God speaking in this section? When did He start speaking to this group of persons? Has He changed His address from one group of persons to another? If so, what evidence is there that He has changed from speaking to one group towards speaking to another group?”—Please stop and read Malachi now.— This author believes that Malachi should be divided into only three sections: The first section, 1:1 to 1:5 is the introduction. God wanted all Israel, all Jacob, to hear this message because everybody was involved either directly or indirectly with the causes and consequences of the message. The second section, 1:6 to 1:14, is God’s chief complaint against the arrogant and dishonest priests. This section is crucial to understanding the remainder of the book because it provides the basic grounds for all other problems in the book. The third section, 2:1 to 4:6, is God’s specific direct address to the priests. Although the rest of Israel is indirectly affected by the actions of the priests, God does not change His address after it begins in 2:1. This chapter will attempt to convincingly reveal the reasons for this approach. If true, then this interpretation is devastating to the usual logic presented in favor of tithing in most Christian churches. It is especially important to discover the real meaning of Malachi 3:8-10" |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 12:41pm On Aug 20, 2007 |
@TV01, TV01:No wahala. I've had very cordial dialogues with several people on this Forum, and even though we may not agree on many points, we've respected one another and amicably considered issues in discussions. Enigma is a gentleman, and I applaud his civility in addressing my concerns (though he has not as yet obliged me answers to a few others I left him). If you cannot afford to dialogue, there'd be no need to even keep my fingers crossed for you. I offered you so many times that you save the slobbers and hold a DISCUSSION; but since you'd rather be at the end of my baton, I'll spare no blows for as many times as your rascality deserves. TV01:Half-witted folks like you keep coming back predicatably knotting yourselves further. WHAT exactly do you really understand by the term "the LAW" in the various contexts where they appear in the NT? If you were a careful student of Scripture, you wouldn't have missed the simple points outlined clearly in the persuasions of the apostles when they 'referred' to the LAW in teaching about the Christian Faith.(a) Did Paul or any of the apostle ever refer categorically to any part of the LAW for Christian life?Did they refer to the Law? YES! The crucial question is: HOW did the apostles apply "the LAW" in Christian ministry? Some highlights to help you think: (a) 'The LAW' is used in various contexts as referring to: * the Sinaitic Law (including the 10 commandments - see Rom. 2:15) * the Pentateuch/Torah (Genesis to Deuteronomy - see Rom. 3:21; Luke 24:44) * the specific commandments God gave in the OT - (see Neh. 9:13-14) Particularly in Neh. 9:13-14, we see the various constituents of the body of 'the LAW' which God gave: "Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments: And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant." Before you throw 'the LAW' wholesale behind your back, consider also that besides the elements of "right judgements and true laws", God has given us Christians "good statues" and "commandments" and "precepts" in the LAW that you have committed to redundancy! It is in this regard that the Lord Jesus Christ clearly distinguished the Law from the other books of the OT in Luke 24 - "Moses and all the prophets" (vs. 27), or "the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms" (vs. 44). (b) Its application in the NT furnishes us with the following: * specific commandments * prophecies * exhortations * divine principles All these matters are found in "the LAW" - and the apostles in the NT specifically referred to them as applicable to the Christian life and faith, and did not give the slightest hint that they had become REDUNDANT as if to throw them wholesale in the bin as you're advocating!! That is what pseudo-Christian cults and false prophets do - they declare God's WORD "redundant" - which is precisely what you're doing! That's why before you display your pus-brain and make further tomfoolery of your subaltern class, common sense requires a man to carefully check matters before he attempts to adjudge the LAW as "redundant" in all its particulars. Let me give you two references (already cited earlier) which show that Paul actually both referred to the LAW and applied it to the CHRISTIAN faith: A. 1 Corinthians 9:8-10 "Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, NO DOUBT, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope." (emphasis mine) When the apostle quoted Deut. 25:4 above, did he not boldly declare that God had written it "for OUR sakes"? For chaps like you who pedantically miss it, he even emphatically stated that it was written "For our sakes, NO DOUBT"!! You should have been summersaulting and berating the apostle Paul for quoting "the LAW of Moses" to establish Christian giving; so that you being "apostle TV01" would have screamed your jugular guts out and let him know that even that also was "REDUNDANT!!" B. 1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law." Did you fail to see that Paul was quoting the LAW when he said: "as also saith the law"? Have you looked that up as yet - or you pretended to be a blind bat on that verse also? If that verse is not predicated on the LAW, then as well you should scream your guts out and make it "redundant" if you possibly could!! There are scores of other NT verses that show HOW the Law applies to the Christian life. I've often made the point that rather than looking for a "literal" interpretation of every single verse of the Law in the OT (such as killing goats and sheep for sacrifices), we should see the PRINCIPLES in the LAW that God has set there for us in our Christian life. Again, this is underscored in Neh. 9:13-14 where we can understand that God has set forth divine "precepts", "right judgements", "good statutes", and "comandments" in the LAW; and it is only a disciplined heart that can see how they apply in our lives today. If you don't understand the issues about "the LAW" as used in the NT, why don't you simply invite a dialogue and let's share either ways with others, so that we may all benefit and gain more understanding thereby? Trying to interpolate your hollow bloviates in matters you don't understand is not the best way to dramatize your desperations. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 12:43pm On Aug 20, 2007 |
@TV01, TV01:Oh yes. . . I knew you'd predictably wave that as 'first aid' for your bruises!  WHAT particular elements of "the LAW" does Scripture mean by the Lord having fulfilled the Law? Did you ever take the time to check that out before referring to your 'planks'?TV01:TV01, your diablerie is not worth the dust on the highway to Jericho. How many times have I stated clearly that I'm not forcing anyone to believe in TITHES if they don't want to? Once and often I've plainly stated: pilgrim.1:. . . and then you have the temerity to allege that I'm "binding men" to a man-made religion!? Why exactly have you been trying with zero success to "bind men" to your own drudgery which you disguised as "freedom"? How many people have complained, even whimpered, like the child you are, that I've been 'binding' them to anything - much less the subject of tithes? Just because you stand limp with a cavernous chest and unable to defend your assertive denials and blotched traversals, does not indicate by any stretch that you have a clue about your decorative farcé. TV01:You're such a laugh! In the first place, Paul in Galatians never used 'circumcision' as a metaphor for the Mosaic law, because that would be saying that 'circumcision' is another term for the Law! Circumcision stands as one of the elements of the Sinaitic (or Mosaic) law; and there are several other elements that are pivotal as outward expressions of that LAW (see Acts 21:21). Have you ever wondered that in the Decalogue (i.e., the 10 Commandments - Exo. 20:1-17), there is no mention of "circumcision" in any of the commandments? Second, elsewhere the apostle used 'circumcision' as a "sign" to demonstrate the righteousness of Abraham who received the promise: Rom. 4:11 "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also." Now notice that Abraham did not receive the Mosaic Law; but even his circumcision was declared as a 'seal' of the righteousness of the faith he had while he was yet uncircumcized. Third, in Galatians apostle Paul was speaking AGAINST outward "circumcision" as a means to the righteouseness that God requires (see Gal. 5:11 - ". . if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution?. . "  . Nowhere was Paul persecuted for preaching against tithes - because there is no single verse in the NT where he preached against it! His general attitude to outward 'circumcision' is as found in 1 Cor. 7:19 - "Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God" (cf. Gal. 6:15). You will not find Paul anywhere saying the same thing about tithing, as if to say 'tithing is nothing, and not tithing is nothing'!! He never made that connection as you're trying to cheat behind the counter by your supposition in the quote above. So, your fallacy that 'circumcision' was the metaphor for 'the Mosaic law' in Galatians is untenable; and you cannot transfer the same fallacy by rates to tithes. TV01:Please, if there's anywhere at all where I stated that keeping the Law justifies anyone at all, kindly quote the link. You're beginning to sound even more crass! TV01:Since you had no clue what the apostles meant by "the LAW", I took the time to help you see just a bit clearer in my reposte above (if you may). Not in one line did I heretofore infer that one should meticulously and fastiduosly apply a literal meaning of "the Law". Rather, there are specific commandments, precepts, prophecies, exhortations, and divine principles that God has given us in the Law as Christians; and I already quoted 1 Cor. 7:19 - that outward ritual avail nothing, "but the keeping of the commandments of God". |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 12:44pm On Aug 20, 2007 |
@TV01, TV01:You're such a comedian, TV01. You assume to "keep rebutting" my posts. . with what? With your cavil denunciations that you haven't been able to defend from Scripture up until now? "Keep rebutting" my posts - with your confirmed "errors"? Or, "keep rebutting" my posts with your utility-grade scholarship that keeps flying and hyperventilating the simple questions offered you? Go take a crash course on the meaning of those words ('integrity' and 'coherence') and look in the mirror to see the blotch in your face. You haven't been able to flaw any text so far that I've used in my persuasions contextually. . . and you'd dream to 'rebutt' my entries! Titters!  TV01:If you feel "bound" by the conjectures of your self-imposed drudgery, we can sympathise with you. But rather than try to insinuate issues into my repostes which I never mentioned, try be honest and gentlemanly enough to quote where I ever mentioned the noise you're making in that quote! TV01:And would it be just okay to substitute your own "errors", assertive denials and cavil denunciations in place of well-reasoned discourses? I've offered that you show exactly HOW, WHY and WHERE you find my persuasions flawed; instead of the usual bloviates that say nothing and only manage to further display your desperations. If you can't do so, don't try pretending a grandfather status on this subject - especially when you've offered nothing but the same trademark defamations against what you don't understand. TV01:Like you always do, you've said nothing from the very onset. TV01:TV01, try something else instead of your howling caterwauls. You had a problem with seeing leadership in the Church - and I offered a couple of verses to show actually that God had set some in the Church as leaders indeed: what then have you said about those texts? Nothing. I also pointed out that the Lord has ordained that those who preach the Gospel should live of the Gospel - it is the Lord's ordinance: what have you said about that as well? NOTHING! Now you come back like a child whining and blubbering, as if this rattle you're making is a better alternative for your misery. TV01:I've not asked anything from YOU; nor have I passed a collection plate to your adulators! If you actually respect the WORD and have no problems with what it declares about honouring the elders in your local church, then we would not be reading this sad complaints from you. But if you've got problems with this issue as enunciated clearly in 1 Cor. 9:14 and 1 Tim 5:17-18, then do just one simple thing: strike them off your own Bible and keep your poverty to yourself. TV01:Rom. 3:31 -- "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." There! Does Rom. 3:31 say exactly the same thing as you've asserted about God making the law "redundant"? If God had made tithing redundant, please show me where He did so. If He has made the entire LAW redundant, I've demonstrated the fact that He did not say so, and only your superstition and voodoo are feeding that idea. Scroll up and see WHAT constitutes "the Law", WHERE the apostles referred to "the Law", and HOW exactly they applied the divine precepts and statutes of "the Law" in their NT ministry. On the whole, you'd have to look into the WORD and produce the verse that denounces tithes the way you have done without a mandate; and secondly, please produce the verse where Paul stated that he had " previously destroyed" tithes! Cheers. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 12:47pm On Aug 20, 2007 |
Hnd-holder:Now, mr Hnd-holder, take those same questions, aplly them to ALL the books of the NT - and then ask if God was addressing YOU, and see if the "author" of that article is not being more ribald than tadpoles SharkTales. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 1:09pm On Aug 20, 2007 |
You guys are just a big shame! If you had any scholarship to boast of, please go hawk it for the price of "pure water" on the streets of Lagos! Instead of settling down to DISCUSS with people, it has become second nature to you to offer childish questions, look for loop holes in people's posts to sarcastically criticize when you yourselves have NOTHING to offer other than assertive denials and decorative farcé! If that were not enough, then you'd turn round and denounce what you don't understand - as if anyone in Heaven commissioned you to do so as a special ministry! That is why I've often offered three things: Before you denounce anything or castigate anyone, check prayerfully what God is saying so that - [list] [li]you don't end up DENOUNCING what God did NOT ask you to denounce![/li] [li]you don't try to castigate people simply because of your disaffection for them![/li] [li]you would be willing to dialogue instead of offering emptiness and pretending that as scholarship![/li][/list] TV01, you haven't met the REAL me yet! I may be a young woman, but it will take you eons to dream of even matching my insight here and outside the Forum. I've severally warned you to DISCUSS with people - but since you have more peanuts in your skull than brains, dare me more: and you will be sorry for walking on two legs!! |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 1:46pm On Aug 20, 2007 |
Hnd-holder:I think that would be brilliant. But would it help if I addressed you guys in exactly the manner you have chosen constantly to address others? And about interpolation of ideas, I don't think you're referring to my posts. I've asked that anyone who feels that they are deeply flawed should please do me the favour of presening exactly HOW, WHY and WHERE they feel so. In other words, let's DISCUSS and face ISSUES, rather than the sarcasm and readiness to be caustic to others. I've warned again and again that those who address me that way, will not like what they get in return! Is it too much to ask for a dialogue? Cheers.  |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by Hndholder(m): 2:09pm On Aug 20, 2007 |
@pilgrim.1 Any problem? |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by Hndholder(m): 2:35pm On Aug 20, 2007 |
In many churches today the doctrine of tithing has reached the level of a modern scandal. ---Russell Earl Kelly, Ph. D. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by TV01(m): 2:56pm On Aug 20, 2007 |
Hnd-holder:I think my playing hard to get is getting to her ! |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 3:12pm On Aug 20, 2007 |
Hnd-holder:With all due respects, Russell had nothing to offer. I've gone through his so-called "Ph. D thesis" (turned into a book called Should The Church Be Teaching Tithing?) and found it an empty treatise. HOW is that so? I've addressed his many rants in my previous posts. Edited: please ask Russell WHY he is asking for $16 for his 288 page book, while he spent his energy trying to "prove" that others were stealing "money" by the same method he is seeking to make money! TV01:Sorry, perhaps you had thought I was an cheap commodity and a substitute for your heartbreaks. Try harder. . . or, as I said: "dare me!" |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by Hndholder(m): 3:16pm On Aug 20, 2007 |
The New Testament Does Not Teach Tithing. The false teaching is that Jesus taught tithing in Matthew 23:23 which, they say, is clearly in the New Testament. The New Covenant did not begin at the birth of Jesus, but at his death (Gal. 3:19, 24, 25; 4:4, 5). Tithing is not taught to the church after the cross! When Jesus discussed tithing in Matthew 23:23, “you” referred to Jewish obedience to the Old Covenant Law which he endorsed and supported until the cross (note “of the law” in 23:23). In Matthew 23:2 and 3 (the context of 23:23) Jesus told his Jewish followers to obey the scribes and Pharisees "because they sit in Moses’ seat." Yet He did not command Gentiles whom He healed to present themselves to the priests and obey the Law of Moses (compare Matt. 5:23, 24 and 8:4). And churches do not collect tithes from garden herbs as Jesus commanded. There is not a single New Testament Bible text which teaches tithing after the cross – period! Acts 2:42-47 and 4:32-35 are not examples of tithing to support church leaders. According to 2:46 the Jewish Christians continued to worship in the Temple. And according to 2:44 and 4:33, 34 church leaders shared what they received equally with all church members. (This is not done today). Finally Acts 21:20-25 proves that Jewish Christians were still zealously observing all of the Mosaic Law 30 years later –and that must include tithing—otherwise they would not have been allowed inside the Temple to worship. Therefore, any tithes collected by the early Jewish Christians were given to the Temple system and not to support the church. -------Russell Earl Kelly, Ph. D. But pilgrim 1, How I wish to read a better presention from you. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 3:21pm On Aug 20, 2007 |
Hnd-holder:You guys can be such a waste of time! All I ask you to do is show where Jesus denounced TITHING - that's all! If you guys have not seen it, cutting and pasting the same childish rants is not going to solve your desperations. Isn't it amazing that up until now, NOT even ONE of you have been able to show WHERE in the New Testament/Covenant God committed TITHING as a redundant practice? |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by Hndholder(m): 3:28pm On Aug 20, 2007 |
pilgrim.1:[b]Hnd-holder (m) My papa's land NIGERIA Posts: 1278 Online Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? « #771 on: August 21, 2006, 10:28 AM » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the last super, Jesus offer his flesh in form of bread and his blood in form of wine. As a gift He then says do this in his memory. Chapter 7 of letters of Paul to Hebrews explains the ineffectiveness of tithing. The laws governing the priesthood (including tithing) were "changed" and "abolished" (7:5, 12, 18). HEBREWS CHAPTER 7 5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: 11 ¶ If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. [/b] |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 3:30pm On Aug 20, 2007 |
Hnd-holder:Hnd-holder, HOW MANY times have I addressed this issue?!? Isn't it funny that you guys have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to offer in refutation of the issues I raised? And you're asking me to offer a "better presentation"!! WHAT have you and you folks said about what I already offered? Every single line where I found assertive denials and decorative farcé in others' posts, I have addressed them, using nothing other than the WORD of God! I asked a few questions - and all I got were abuses and under-rated IQs. . . and for all of that, NOTHING has been said about the points I raised; NO ONE has refuted the points I've offered - and you're sitting here pretending to ask for a "better presentation"!! Hnd-holder, honesty is not an expensive commodity. And I simply lose interest in people who can afford to be so disingenous as you're here sitting smug and pretending to dramatize. Please go over to my presentations - and offer from God's WORD that my presentations are mistaken; and then we'll consider them together! I'm least bothered by people who have nothing to say and can't see beyond their noses - and that is exactly what Russell is doing in his book! After castigating others over money matters, he's asking for $16 in precisely the same way he has denounced!! Simply because he's atacking TITHING, you see nothing wrong with that - but you're quick to clap hands with him and applaud his hypocrisy in denouncing what he himself is practising! Well done. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 3:32pm On Aug 20, 2007 |
Hnd-holder:One question, please: Did TITHING originate with the LEVITICAL priesthood? |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by TV01(m): 3:36pm On Aug 20, 2007 |
pilgrim.1:No dear, you are the one selling scholarship - or something that you are trying to pass off as such - to participants. I am merely sharing and discussing the truth of scripture. The Bible warns of those who use the gospel as a "cloak for covetousness" and make "merchandise" of the word of God. Your end game is to justify a salaried professional clergy. It's not there, non withstanding your contorted and convoluted manouvering. pilgrim.1:It's tedious to respond to blatant and endless butchering of the scriptures on a point by point basis. Especially when you can post up to half a dozen posts on just the one word. Example in your discussion with Enigma, the following verse Deuteronomy 14:26 which reads 26 And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the Lord NKJV 26 and thou shalt bestow the money for whatsoever thy soul desireth, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul asketh of thee; and thou shalt eat there before Jehovah thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou and thy household. NAS 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you ESV 26 and thou shalt give the money for whatever thy soul desireth, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatever thy soul asketh of thee; and thou shalt eat there before Jehovah thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thy house DARBY 26 and thou hast given the money for any thing which thy soul desireth, for oxen, and for sheep, and for wine, and for strong drink, and for any thing which thy soul asketh, and thou hast eaten there before Jehovah thy God, and thou hast rejoiced, thou and thy house.YLT In a discussion about the contextual meaning of the word rendered “bestow” Pilgrim 1 did the following (and in a legthy multiple post treatise) 1. Introduced a needless Salary and Tithe dichotomy? 2. Postulated Buying & Selling distinction? (And a market in trading tithes??) 3. Insisted that bestowing the monetary converted tithe on oxen, sheep or WINE or strong drink was in someway buying someone elses tithe (was wine or strong drink ever tithed?) 4. Moved on to introduce the concept of traders, merchants, entrepreneurs, tycoons (and presumably oligarchs at some point). 5. Tied that to God in Christ – and rightly so too - hating merchandising in worship. 6. Made reference to her obsession with TV01 !7. Referenced several other uses of the word in diofferent contexts, but insisted the meaning in different contexts buttressed your ill defined one in the verse under discussion. 8. Determined bestow meant “give” as in donate, confer, bequeath etc, and not buy, spend, use or apply etc 9. Spoke some Greek and some Hebrew (although unbeknown to her she had been speaking Greek all along!) 10. Then claimed that the giving was to the poor 11. But it had to be given via the MOG’s One more time; 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice. NIV That from a version I don't even like. What in that verse makes "whatever you like", "anything you ", "whatsoever your soul lusteth after", "whatsoever thy soul desires, and all the variations difficult to understand. You are not interested in context, rather pretext for your recieved, traditional notions, Devilishly convoluted and disingenuous. Pilgrim.1, this is way beyond the pale and just not acceptable. You are also championing academic knowledge as king. Insisting that without being deeply versed in Greek, Hebrew, all the different translations or versions and knowing which to use and when, one cannot rightly understand or divide the word of truth. By the which doing two things; 1. Trying to do away with the tutelage of the Holy Spirit 2. Replacing that leading with the teachings of a professional salaried clergy class, who based on their knowledge are alone the true possesors of God's truth. How anyone could read that verse to mean what you claim is nothing short of absurd. At best the poor and priests were to be included in the feasting, but it was feasting non the less. pilgrim.1:No, but that is not what you are after. pilgrim.1:A date with you would be uunforgettable in how absolutely forgettable it was! Or is that an offer ? Oya post your pic!Young woman huh? That alone won't swing it. I know highly accomplished women of all ages, none of whom are ashamed to call me friend and not a few who would be happy to have me as a husband My mandate is not to match you my dear, don't make it yours to outdo me. Anyway, I'm sure there are those who would make worthier benchmarks for you than I ever would! Most women have a hook. Be it looks, figure, child birth, cooking etc, I guess yours is knowledge? Knowledge puffs up. Listen to how seriously you take yourself pilgrim.1:Rail against me with all the vituperation you can muster. I won't budge. And please save your threats, I know He who judges me. It you can find it within yourself to discuss simply, on a point by point basis, I'm here. If you want to use a mixture of abuse, threats, warped scholarship and lengthy posts to dissuade me, I still won't abandon the thread for you. The choice is yours young lady. God bless TV |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by Hndholder(m): 4:07pm On Aug 20, 2007 |
I am sure that I am on Nairaland not in IRAQ. Can someone call for seize fire? pilgrim.1:are you asking me? you should know better that Today tithing is nothing but stealing by method of interpolation of words from the old testament which Jesus did not approve of. You will not read but fire, fire ah! How will your house look like as house wife? |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by TV01(m): 4:27pm On Aug 20, 2007 |
pilgrim.1: No it did not. But please note the following; 1. Tithing was extant before Abraham and common practice as clearly gleaned from antiquity. 2. Tithing did not originate with Abraham. 3. It was nowhere instituted as a law or commandment with or at the time of Abraham. Therefore, what was never enacted, can not be abrogated. 4. It was enacted with the Mosaic law and made redundant as part of same, via the Cross. Simple really. God bless TV |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 4:51pm On Aug 20, 2007 |
TV01, TV01:Oga TV01, who on this Forum has been making empty noise all this while until he had to admit openly that he was parading erros? Do you want me to remind you that it was your confession? As for the "cloak of covetousness", let me remind you that the Bible did not condemn TITHES by that phrase (see 1 Thes. 2:5); nor in any other verse in the NT did God either condemn it or denounce it! Third, it's easy for you to be such a blind bat and pretend you can't see what the verse says. I only hope you'd be willing to be honest enough to apply that "cloke of covetousness" to such folks like Russell who are doing the same thing as they condemn in others. TV01:In place of your caterwauls, I asked you to show WHAT the Lord meant by His ordinance in 1 Cor. 9:14. Hooting like a mule has not helped your image. TV01:No, because after I have REPEATEDLY pointed out that GOD did not ask His people to either SELL or BUY tithes anywhere in the Bible, you and your crew had tried to force the idea that they were BUYING Tithes!! How beggarly can you get?!? That's the reason why I took time to go into detail and expound on that word "bestow" - because as blind as you can get, you failed to see that Enigma was stressing that word so many times out of focus. Now, just take your diaper ot of here and crawl back to that thread - and there REBUTT my posts to show that God was instructing people to BUY their tithes!! You see your hypocrisy! On the one hand you're here denouncing a "covetousness", but on the other hand you're sweating like the rickshaw-coolie that you are in order to "prove" that God was asking people to BUY Tithes in Deut. 14:26. Your hypocrisy is a big shame! TV01:Please go there (or even HERE) and demonstrate clearly for all to see that the word "buy" [קנה - qânâh] is exactly the same word "bestow" [נתן - nâthan] in the BIBLE!! Your greed and hypocrisy that allows you to see a COMMERCIAL activity in the celebration feast in Deut. 14:26 will typically blind you from seeing that your own crew have been shleppng the same thing again and again! If God had established a MARKET in that chapter, then do me the following: Just simple show me WHO were the TRADERS and MERCHANT men in that chapter who BOUGHT and SOLD Tithes!! TV01, I want an answer to that request! If you fail to provide one, that is where readers will see the hypocrite you are in true colours! Just show me where God established a MARKET activity to ask His people to BUY and[b] SELL[/b] tithes to anyone!! |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 4:52pm On Aug 20, 2007 |
TV01, TV01:Yes, make all the noise! Readers can refer to the relevant thread and see things for thmselves. All I'm asking is that you prove your mettle and show that God asked ANYONE to BUY Tithes!! If that is not roguish in God's House, please offer a clever word that will hide your cheap subaltern reputation. TV01:WHERE in all my posts did I do that? TV01:WHERE did I postulate that? TV01:TV01 -- "Was WINE or STRONG DRINK ever tithed?" Deuteronomy 12:17 "Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the TITHE of thy corn, or of thy WINE, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand" Nehemiah 13:5 "And he had prepared for him a great chamber, where aforetime they laid the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the TITHES of the corn, the new wine, and the oil, which was commanded to be given to the Levites, and the singers, and the porters; and the offerings of the priests." Nehemiah 13:12 "Then brought all Judah the TITHE of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries." TV01:WHERE did I introduce those? I asked Enigma to show me WHERE in God's WORD those ideas can be found, since he was convinced that TITHERS were to "BUY" other people's tithes at the worship center! TV01, are you that ribald that you ave no shred of honesty in your blood?!? TV01:HOW and WHERE did I tie MERCHANDIZING to GOD and CHRIST?!? Honesty, again, TV01. . . honesty! I asked Enigma to see that the idea of MARKETING in connection with worship is something God discountenances (John 2:15 & 16). I'd leave readers to see the hypocrite you are, TV01. I knew you would simply entrap yourself at the right moment. TV01:I wasn't obsessed with you, as I don't parry around with voodoo priests and supertition-mongers who deny God's WORD the way you do! Besides, are you going to deny that you categorically mentioned that Enigma has referred to me as a contortionist?!? And what do you expect me to do when you besmirch my person in that manner? Oh, please whimper some more - I said already that you haven't met the REAL pilgrim.1! I'm not responsible for your utility-grade scholarship; but it might help you when you need to upgrade so that you can toast those girls with an NFA portfolio. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 4:54pm On Aug 20, 2007 |
TV01, TV01:I delineated the TWO different words to the point that: to "buy" [קנה - qânâh] is NOT the same thing as to "bestow" [נתן - nâthan]. Please, TV01. . . can YOU show me that the word "BUY" [קנה - qânâh] was EVER used in Deuteronomy 14:26? I need an answer to that question. TV01:Same thing here: Please, TV01. . . can YOU show me that the word "BUY" [קנה - qânâh] was EVER used in Deuteronomy 14:26? I need an answer to that question. TV01:Stop whimpering like a drowning mouse, and go to the Greek and Hebrew and show me if the word used in Deuteronomy 14:26 was "BUY" [קנה - qânâh] instead of "bestow" [נתן - nâthan]. TV01:It's not my claim - it's there in the Bible, and I presented the relevant texts! Unless you want to do another belly-dance and deny Scripture (which is only second nature to you now), we would not be surprised at what next you'd come with! You're such a predictatble clown. TV01:Those appointed for that service are outlined in God's WORD. Blind bats and empty hearts like yours will deny it because you find God's WORD too much for you to handle. TV01:I've said for you to save the caterwauls and OPEN the BIBLE and DISCUSS!! If you cannot afford to open your Bible (because you probably might have torn all the pages you can't accept), then what is the point coming here to display your heart-attack? TV01:I insisted on NOTHING! If you're are already by that saying that you're simply a dropout from school, we can now applaud you and move on. Since Enigma would do nothing that be stapled to just that one word "bestow" and make it sound like a commercial activity, I took the time to show him HOW, WHY and WHERE that idea was absolutely false - and asked him to check up John 2:15-16. If he had simply consulted his study tools, he would not have needed to marktime on that simple word! There is NO MARKET activity at the celebration of the TITHES!! TV01, if you want to set yours up, simply close your Bible ad let us know that you'd been carrying a rebellious heart all this while. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 4:54pm On Aug 20, 2007 |
TV01, TV01:If you knew anything about the "tutelage" of the Spirit, you would not have been DENYING His WORD and coming back to claim it was an "error". The verses I gave you on leadership in the Church and our responsibility to them, you have evaded them yet again - only to creep behind the scenes to attempt to post you slurs. TV01, sorry. . . you failed - and only managed to show the hypocrite you are! I do feel for your crew - they know now the person you are at heart! TV01:Because you're so blind - I mentioned precisely that ALL were to partake: the tithers themselves, the Levites, the widows, the fatherless and the strangers!! Lying with such cowardize simply puts me off. TV01:When you learn to respect God's WORD and tell the truth from a good heart, maybe then I might place you at the bottom of my list (that is, the bottom of a non-existent list )!TV01:Oh my goodness! Please let me know the morally bankrupt lasy that would tag along by your side for the rest of her life! That would be ace in the Guiness Book of Records!TV01:I'm waiting for the rascals. TV01:See? Your girl will live happily ever so miserably! Why? Because you're looking out for a dunce you can cheat!TV01:You didn't remember who judges you before you railed against others, eh? I don't take prisoners, so what "threat" are you feeling? TV01:Rubbish! I offered you a discussion endlessly. , appealed to you several times. . . asked that you saved the slobbers. . and what did you reply to that?!? You only come back now waving a tattered white flag after your shipwreck! Please keep amusing yourself. I've said once and again: since you can't behave, I'll spare no blows until you cry to your Delilah! TV01:Dare me more. . . as again, dare me more!! pilgrim.1 let's out a guffaw that could remove his spine if he heard me!! |
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