₦airaland Forum

Finally, let's consider the third point:


(c) tithes are not a matter in God's WORD to castigate and besmirch ministers

So many sad things have been said against ministers of the Gospel whenever the question of tithes and offerings are mentioned. "It is stealing by method". . "you're a hirleing or a 'ho". . "Tithing is law-bound, Christ-denying, faith-void, religiously perverse, thrice-redundant, ritualistic codswallop", etc., etc. The one question I have for those who have alleged these things is this: WHERE does God's WORD ever refer to Tithing as such?

Where did God ask anyone to denounce TITHING the way people have repeatedly done? I'm least interested in personal opinions; rather, I'd very much appreciate that such folks find me the verses that commission them to make such cavil denunciations against ministers of the Gospel. Where did the Lord Jesus Christ or any of the apostles pronounce such denunciations, I beg you?

When we carefully study the verses where this subject is treated, we don't find God asking anyone to refer to tithe in the unfortunate terms as we find many people doing; and we might have to remind them that they will be called to account for their word. However, besides the fact that the Lord Jesus ordained it in the NT, we find God reprimanding His people in Malachi 3 where they had failed to observe the tithes and offerings. All the other texts we've considered in the NT (1 Cor. 9:7-14; Heb. 13:10; 1 Tim. 5:13-14, etc) point rather positively to the fact that Christians are encouraged to tithe and give of their offerings; and not a single word to suggest that ministers are to be referred to as "thieves" for their receiving what the Lord has ordained them.

Bottomline, if anyone does not believe in tithes and offerings, no wahala. The one thing such people could do is to do as they please and hold their tongues from besmirching the ministers of the Gospel unto whom the Lord has ordained this privilege (or "power" - I Cor. 9:4 &12). I know of some ministers who do not make use of this right, even though they are very aware that the Lord has ordained it as their legitimate right.

If anyone still believes that it is their commission to castigate the servants of Christ on account of tithes and offerings, let us remind them that the Lord takes note of what we say against His servants (Matt. 10:25; 12:36 and 1 Pet. 3:16).

Regards.

@TV01,

TV01:
That's is your preferred modus operandi; ask a seemingly "simple" question.

Was the question I asked a difficult one for you personally? Actually, I take my 'modus operandi' from Scripture - an example is the remarkable fact that in just 4 short verses, the apostle Paul asked SEVEN questions one after the other (see 1 Cor. 9:7-10). See again that he asked FOUR questions in verse 1 alone! If that is not enough, the first thing we read about Jesus in the Temple with the doctors is that He was "both hearing them, and asking them questions" (Luke 2:46).

TV01, if you've got troubles with my asking simple questions for whatever reason, a public Forum is not the best of places to whimper like a child.

TV01:
But in truth and true to form, you are really setting the scene for you own - and glaringly obvious - traditional or denominational bias. Even if one answers the question - different to your prejudice - you'll just ride roughshod over it.

I'm quite used to your sobs, and I'm not about to replace your nanny. So, if you'd rather quit the dramatic boo-hoo-hoo's and deal simply with issues, we might not have cause to consider buying you a feeder to suckle.

TV01:
Never actually spell out a position for comment, but insinuate by slyly worded teasers that you possess some esoteric knowledge or understanding of scripture, when in fact your are sadly misled.

Thank you all the same. Unless you're that beggarly, I've often times spelt out my position and persuasions; discussed them at great lengths; offered questions to help you think through your assertive denials what you called your "errors" - and for all of that, you couldn't even contain your doublespeak and inconsistencies with which you littered the thread; nevermind your denunciations which up until now you still haven't found any verses to cover that scab.

I resumed this thread in a simple manner; and if you're anaemic to holding a discussion, don't expect the gentle reception that greeted your tomes of slobbers previously.

TV01:
You are not really interested in what we understand are you? It's just a poser to enable you to ram your position down everyone's throats.

You're not the only one concerned about the subject; and if that is another way of you already piping a lute for your dirge, accept my condolences upfront.

@TV01,

TV01:
The first part is a reference to the OT/Jewish worship form. The levitical Priesthood was primarily supported by the tithe.

The second part pertains to Christian practice. First note that it is those that "PREACH". This is in the sense of them being itinerant and unable to maintain a regular income providing activity as was Paul's circumstance and that of many labouring to fulfil the apostolic foundation of the church. Note, that when he could work, he did, and at a level far below his training and pedigree.

If anyone is engaged in a ministry that presents the same or similar circumstances, they should be supported at an appropriate level by the body

Just some notes to add here to what I already offered. That passage was not meant merely for apostles alone; unless you are trying to say that elders were also itinerant ministers. When Paul mentions the same subject to Timothy (1 Tim. 5:17-18), he made it clear that this service should be extended as well for the care and upkeep of elders.

The word "PREACH" does not suggest that it is perculiar only to itinerancy, or to ministers who were unable to maintain a regular income. Paul besought Timothy to remain in Ephesus (1 Tim. 1:3), and went on to admonish him to "PREACH the word" (ch. 4:2). The 'preaching' of the word is not merely confined to the work of evangelists who declare the Gospel to the lost; because in certain instances it connotes the ministering of the Word to believers who are Christians already - as Paul did in Acts 20:7.

TV01:
Those who minister in local congregations should work like everyone else. That is the Lords charge. If they don't, or choose not to, it is not the congregations responsibility to support them. And in any event, not in any way different from any other member of the congregation who has physical needs.

The Lord's charge is that the local churches were responsible to support ministers ('elders') who minister among them; and there's nothing to indicate that such a charge was meant only for those who could not maintain a regular income. Whether or not they held any form of employment, Scripture simply says:

(1) "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward." (1 Tim. 5:17-18)

(2) "Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel" (1 Cor. 9:14).

TV01:
There is no clergy/laity - leader/follower - split in NTC.

Heb. 13:7 -  "Remember them which have the rule over you who have spoken unto you the word of God:
        whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. . ."

Heb. 13:17 - "Obey them which have the rule over you. . ."

Heb. 13:24 - Salute all them which have the rule over you. . ."

Php. 1:1 - "to (a) all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, (b) with the bishops and deacons:"

1 Tim. 4:14 - ". . . with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery."


See also Hebrews 13:7 in following translations:

(ALT - Analytical Literal Trans.) - "Be remembering the ones leading you. . ."

(EMTV)  -  "Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. . ."

(HCSB, ESV)  -- "Remember your leaders. . ."

(YLT - Young's Literal Trans.)  -- "Be mindful of those leading you. . ."

TV01:
There is no call for paid ministry in the local congreagation.

1 Tim. 5:17 & 18
"Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward."

1 Cor. 9:14
"Even so hath the Lord ORDAINED that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel."

TV01:
Should help nail the celebrity circuit of hirelings who roam from venue to venue with their "product led", "pseudo-Christianity" ~ ministry to "singles", "healing" "prosperity" etc.

Should help you look into your heart and turn your eyes to the WORD before you roll off more voodoo in your bid to deny Scripture.

TV01:
If you do it for money - except in the rare circumstances as I outlined above - you're a hirleing or a 'ho.

Your narrow "rare circumstances" is not Scripture - especially when you have again made those trademark denials that is second nature to you.

pilgrim.1:
Since you're a Grail follower (or "crossbearer", if you don't understand a matter, would it not be best that you observed and not say things that don't bless you or your readers?

The same mistake again. Is ISAAC or ABRAHAM a Christian?

read past posting on this issue you will see that clearly that you are just JJC on this thread

It is important to distinguish between tithing and giving. Although tithing per se is not relevant to Christians, giving most certainly is. As a member in particular of the Body of Christ, each Christian is to determine in his own heart how much he gives and where he allocates his resources among his brothers and sisters in Christ (2 Cor. 9:7). The Epistles metaphor by which material giving is strongly encouraged is that of sowing and reaping—the more you sow, the more you reap (2 Cor. 9:6). “Tithing” is never mentioned.

@Hnd-holder,

Hnd-holder:
read past posting on this issue you will see that clearly that you are just JJC on this thread

I hope you'd not want me to start on you again? Please behave.

Hnd-holder:
I said it over and over again that it is stealing by method.

Were Isaac or Abraham "stealing by method"?


I've refrained from the thread on the Grail Message just to avoid unnecessary exchanges. If you're hungry this morning for a repeat session, please dare me!

Ok, Chaps, thank you very much for your time, I've learnt a lot from you lots, also, I went through all the versions of the bible I've got and the word "Tithe" appeared only twice in the New Testament, Mat 23:23 and Luk 11:42, Christ spoke himself saying:

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone"

So, I think I should pay more attention to Justice, Mercy and Faith, those are more important than Tithe, ofcourse having mercy by giving Offerings to the needy, also the Pastors and workers can live on that. I need not be scared by anybody ,

But at the end of the day, me personally think our offerings and thanksgivings is enough for those that work in the Church to live on as stipulated by some of you chaps. Tithing isn't wrong, so it's right as it's Biblical and Christ didn't teach otherwise, but also he never included it in his teachings, so it's not compulsory as the Pastors preach/teach about it these days, PERIOD!

Peace Out!

Hnd-holder:
It is important to distinguish between tithing and giving. Although tithing per se is not relevant to Christians, giving most certainly is. As a member in particular of the Body of Christ, each Christian is to determine in his own heart how much he gives and where he allocates his resources among his brothers and sisters in Christ (2 Cor. 9:7). The Epistles metaphor by which material giving is strongly encouraged is that of sowing and reaping—the more you sow, the more you reap (2 Cor. 9:6). “Tithing” is never mentioned.

I hear. You make such assumptions because you don't care to STUDY the texts that deal with the question of tithes in the NT. How many times have I asked questions on the distinctions between "tithing and giving" - and all I got were assertive denials, roundabout dribblings, doublespeak, abuses and calumny - and were all those "answers"?

I'd rather that anyone who feels that the texts I'm offering and discussing are not saying what I'm pointing out should please do me the favour of showing HOW, WHY, and WHERE I got them wrong. I'm asking for a discussion and nothing else. If people cannot hold themselves and the only thing they can offer is cavil aspersions, I'm not going to put up with that attitude from anyone henceforth.

Service your intellect with tea or coffee because this is Biblical issue not Grail message which has no room for intellect.
If you ready I am ready
Go

Allta:
Ok, Chaps, thank you very much for your time, I've learnt a lot from you lots, also, I went through all the versions of the bible I've got and the word "Tithe" appeared only twice in the New Testament, Mat 23:23 and Luk 11:42,

TITHES appear MORE THAN TWICE in the NEW TESTAMENT:

Luke 18:12 --  I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

Heb. 7:5  --  And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

Heb 7:6  --  But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

Heb 7:8  --  And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

Heb. 7:9 --  And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

Hnd-holder:
Service your intellect with tea or coffee because this is Biblical issue not Grail message which has no room for intellect.
If you ready I am ready
Go

Here again:

pilgrim.1:
@Hnd-holder,

I hope you'd not want me to start on you again? Please behave.
. . .
I've refrained from the thread on the Grail Message just to avoid unnecessary exchanges. If you're hungry this morning for a repeat session, please dare me!

Cheers Pilgrim for pointing this out, obviously I didn't search enough,

So the word "Tithe" appeared twice
"Tithes" with an 's' appeared 5 times

So, Technically, I'm still right as I highlighted "Tithe" and not "Tithes" in my post, abi?

Pilgrim Ko HND_Holder, make una suffri suffri, this na "Christian" matter oO!, and be good examples to people like me please

Thanks

Peace Out!

@Allta,

Allta:
Pilgrim Ko HND_Holder, make una suffri suffri, this na "Christian" matter oO!, and be good examples to people like me please

Thanks

Peace Out!

Thanks for your admonition - I take it on board. I've often asked for nothing other than a DISCUSSION. . . DISCUSSION. . DISCUSSION!!! I left this thread for a while because I was avoiding the unnecessary derision I often get from those who would rather be occupied with such - whereas I've had very good dialogue in another thread with Enigma on the same subject. Is it too much to ask for a discussion here as well?

Me, I ready for Discussion and that's what I'm here for, I want to learn as I don't even know everything about the Bible, to be honest.

Back to the Topic, Tithes appeared 5 times in the New Testament and mostly in Hebrew, I thought I once heared that we're not sure who wrote Hebrew , is that still correct?

Also, whoever the writer is, was talking about the tithing relationship between Melchizedek and Abraham, Levites and those of non-Levite geneology, in a nut shell, he was making reference to the Laws in Old Testament , Do we still live by the Laws? Yes, Christ never came to destroy the Law, but he taught things we need to live by, and certainly as you will agree , Tithe is not one of those things, am I right?

Tithe is by force. Giving is a Joyfull activity. Under the Law, Jews were to give out of their produce, that is, what the Lord had provided for them. Just like the Word says, “We love God because He first loved us,” so we give because God has given to us. When we understand what God has done for us in Christ, and that the material blessings we have come from Him, and that He promises to bless us back for what we give, giving cheerfully is a joy.

Allta:
Back to the Topic, Tithes appeared 5 times in the New Testament and mostly in Hebrew, I thought I once heared that we're not sure who wrote Hebrew , is that still correct?

It is plain to see that Paul is the inspired author of Hebrews. Whether or not anyone still debates that is not the core issue;  rather Hebrews is part of the Bible, and it is valuable for the Christian faith.

Allta:
Also, whoever the writer is, was talking about the tithing relationship between Melchizedek and Abraham, Levites and those of non-Levite geneology, in a nut shell, he was making reference to the Laws in Old Testament , Do we still live by the Laws? Yes, Christ never came to destroy the Law, but he taught things we need to live by, and certainly as you will agree , Tithe is not one of those things, am I right?

I understand your concerns - and it is for this reason I've taken time to offer why Paul referred to the Law of Moses when discussing TITHES and OFFERINGS in 1 Cor. 9:7-10.

      (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-272.1088.html#msg1397085)
      (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-272.1088.html#msg1397086)

Hnd-holder:
Tithe is by force. Giving is a Joyfull activity. Under the Law, Jews were to give out of their produce, that is, what the Lord had provided for them. Just like the Word says, “We love God because He first loved us,” so we give because God has given to us. When we understand what God has done for us in Christ, and that the material blessings we have come from Him, and that He promises to bless us back for what we give, giving cheerfully is a joy.

It is for this reason that I've tried to share that Tithes are not a matter of FORCE, COERCION, or COMPULSION - I've said this again and again, and tried to discuss it with relevant texts to show WHY and HOW this is so.

I asked a simple question regarding the idea that TITHES have to be always thought of as done by FORCE, COERCION, MANDATE, or COMPULSION. That question was: WHO FORCED Abraham to give tithes to Melchizedek?

And even under the Law, I also shared that the Jews gave WILLINGLY just as we're admonished in the NT:

OT - Exo. 35:29
"The children of Israel brought a willing offering unto the LORD, every man and woman,
whose heart made them willing to bring for all manner of work, which the LORD had commanded
to be made by the hand of Moses.

NT - 2 Cor. 8:12
"For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath,
and not according to that he hath not."

Many times we often fail to see that the attitude of joyfulness out of a willing heart are expressed in both the OT and the NT.

pilgrim.1:
It is for this reason that I've tried to share that Tithes are not a matter of FORCE, COERCION, or COMPULSION - I've said this again and again, and tried to discuss it with relevant texts to show WHY and HOW this is so.

I asked a simple question regarding the idea that TITHES have to be always thought of as done by FORCE, COERCION, MANDATE, or COMPULSION. That question was: WHO FORCED Abraham to give tithes to Melchizedek?

And even under the Law, I also shared that the Jews gave WILLINGLY just as we're admonished in the NT:

OT - Exo. 35:29
"The children of Israel brought a willing offering unto the LORD, every man and woman,
whose heart made them willing to bring for all manner of work, which the LORD had commanded
to be made by the hand of Moses.

NT - 2 Cor. 8:12
"For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath,
and not according to that he hath not."

Many times we often fail to see that the attitude of joyfulness out of a willing heart are expressed in both the OT and the NT.

Allta:
Cheers Pilgrim for pointing this out, obviously I didn't search enough,

Pilgrim Ko HND_Holder, make una suffri suffri, this na "Christian" matter oO!, and be good examples to people like me please

Thanks

Peace Out!

What an advice, Who is a Christian? Is Abraham a Christian?

Did Our lord Jesus Christ pay tithe?
I knew, Pilgrim 1 loves me that is why she made it known that I am a cross bearer of the truth of GOD, I must say the truth. Cross bearers are Christians, they read the Bible, they give but not by force.
Let Pilgrim 1 read all my postings on this topic since 2005 or 2007 post alone.

Martin Luther reconstructed the Texts of book of Hebrew because there was a vacuum in the scrolls. The word tithe got in there because the Europe depend on it. Read about Tithe war in Ireland. How can Christians fight and kill for tithe sake? Do they forget that God said in the Bible that thou shall not Kill?
I know that only in given that thou can receive. Tithing is stealing by method.
Take me for what I am.

pilgrim.1:
It is plain to see that Paul is the inspired author of Hebrews. Whether or not anyone still debates that is not the core issue; rather Hebrews is part of the Bible, and it is valuable for the Christian faith.

I understand your concerns - and it is for this reason I've taken time to offer why Paul referred to the Law of Moses when discussing TITHES and OFFERINGS in 1 Cor. 9:7-10.

(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-272.1088.html#msg1397085)
(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-272.1088.html#msg1397086)

Hnd-holder:
What an advice, Who is a Christian? Is Abraham a Christian?

TITHES were not perculiar to ONLY Abraham or Isaac. The one thing I asked that you clarify for us is where you get the idea that TITHING was "stealing by method". If Abraham gave tithes to melchizedek, who was "stealing by method" from who?

Hnd-holder:
Did Our lord Jesus Christ pay tithe?
I knew, Pilgrim 1 loves me that is why she made it known that I am a cross bearer of the truth of GOD, I must say the truth. Cross bearers are Christians, they read the Bible, they give but not by force.
Let Pilgrim 1 read all my postings on this topic since 2005 or 2007 post alone.

There are many things which were done by both OT saints and Christians that we don't read that Jesus ever did! Would that mean that those issues were "stealing by method"?

If I had to go through your posts from 2005 to 2007 inclusive, I still have to ask where you find Scripture referring to tithes as "stealing by method". Could you provide me such a verse, please?

Hnd-holder:
Martin Luther reconstructed the Texts of book of Hebrew because there was a vacuum in the scrolls. The word tithe got in there because the Europe depend on it. Read about Tithe war in Ireland. How can Christians fight and kill for tithe sake? Do they forget that God said in the Bible that thou shall not Kill?

If the word tithe got into Hebrews by Martin Luther, then I suppose you saying that Martin Luther wrote both the books of GENESIS (Gen. 14:20) and HEBREWS (Heb. 7:6), not so? I'm aware that so many people are fashioning theories of speculation to deny what the Bible says; but common sense simply expose the fallacies of such theories. Did Martin Luther then write GENESIS in order to insert "tithes" into Hebrews which quotes from the OT LAW?

Hnd-holder:
I know that only in given that thou can receive. Tithing is stealing by method.
Take me for what I am.

Before you ask me to take you for what you are, please give me the verse in the Bible (OT and NT) to show your bold assertion that "Tithing is stealing by method". Just one verse will do, thank you.

Old Testament, believers understood that when they gave to God, they were opening a door, if you will, for Him to bless them in return.

The idea has been distorted by some Christians who teach that one must give to God before God can bless him. Thus, too many Christians are giving in order to get.

Abraham give tithe only once from what he got from war fronts

Tithes were from Agricultural products.
it was once in every three harvest

Numbers 18:24 
Instead, I give to the LLevitiesas their inheritance the tithes that the Israelites present as an offering to the LORD. That is why I said concerning them: 'theywill have no inheritance among the Israelites.' "


Nigerian are not Israelitesit was met for the Israelitesin front of Aron children
no Aron ddescendantstoday.

Numbers 18:26 
"Speak to the Levitiesnd say to them: 'when you receive from the Israelites the tithe I give you as your inheritance, you must present a tenth of that tithe as the LOLord'sffering.

Numbers 18:28
In this way you also will present an offering to the LORD from all the tithes you receive from the Israelites. From these tithes you must give the Lord'sortion to Aaron the priest.


Deuteronomy 12:6 
there bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, what you have vowed to give and your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks.


10% of What the levlevitiest must be used as a burnt offering to the lord.



Amos 4:4 
"Go to Bethel and sin; go to Gilgal and sin yet more. Bring your sacrifices every morning, your tithes every three years. [ Or tithes on the third day ]


Malachi 3:8 
"Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. "But you ask, 'How howe rob you?' "In tithes and offerings.


But our pastors consume everything then a prophet warn them thus Malachi 3:10
Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.

Hnd-holder:
Old Testament, believers understood that when they gave to God, they were opening a door, if you will, for Him to bless them in return.
The idea has been distorted by some Christians who teach that one must give to God before God can bless him. Thus, too many Christians are giving in order to get.

Deut. 15:10
"Thou shalt surely give him, and thine heart shall not be grieved when thou givest unto him: because that for this thing the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all thy works, and in all that thou puttest thine hand unto."

Luke 6:38
"Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again."

2 Cor. 9:10
"Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness"

2 Cor. 9:6
"But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully."

Hnd-holder:
Abraham give tithe only once from what he got from war fronts
Tithes were from Agricultural products.
it was once in every three harvest

There were yearly tithes as distinct from those collected once every THREE years. The idea that Abraham gave tithes once is no reason to deny the fact that he tithed; and it is no reason to suppose that he was "stealing by method" (I still want that verse that makes you assert that TITHES is stealing by methods). Beyond that, there were also tithes of money. I've offered no verses for all these - because I've done so MANY times, and you'd only have to calmly go back and see them!

Hnd-holder:
Nigerian are not Istrealites it was met for the istrealites in front of Aron children
no Aron desendants today.

Nigerians are not Corinthians or Ephesians, for Paul was addressing the Corinthians when he spoke about giving, tithes, and offerings (1 Cor. 9:7-10); and he was also speaking to Timothy about the Ephesian elders when he penned 1 Tim. 1:3 & 5:17-18.

If your argument holds at all, Nigerians then should have NO basis to even attend Church or give any type of offering, since you are looking for Nigerians who are Israelites standing in front of Aaron.

Hnd-holder:
But our pastors consume every thing then a prophet warn them thus Malachi 3:10

Do Grail followers have pastors? If your Grail 'pastors' have consumed everything, and a prophet has to warn them with Malachi 3:10, perhaps it may help them. If not, then llet them continue to consume everything as they so please.

However, Christian ministers of God are urged to not pursue after filthy lucre - but even so, the WORD clearly says that the Lord has ORDAINED that those who preach the Gospel should live of the Gospel (1 Cor. 9:14).

pilgrim.1:
If your argument holds at all, Nigerians then should have NO basis to even attend Church or give any type of offering, since you are looking for Nigerians who are Israelites standing in front of Aaron.

If 'pastors' have consumed everything, and a prophet has to warn them with Malachi 3:10, perhaps it may help them. If not, then llet them continue to consume everything as they so please.

Yes just let Nigerian worship God in truth. So they should stop explotation with tithe

Hnd-holder:
Yes just let Nigerian worship God in truth. So they should stop explotation with tithe

Lol, you're trying to be smart by removing words from my repostes. No wahala - they are still there:

pilgrim.1:
Do Grail followers have pastors? If your Grail 'pastors' have consumed everything, and a prophet has to warn them with Malachi 3:10, perhaps it may help them. If not, then llet them continue to consume everything as they so please.

Now, if Nigerians are going to worship God in truth, the same Nigerians should not denounce TITHES where God never did so.

Grail is a name and all woshippers of the true GoD are Grail followers. You can not still understand that. Check your dictionary.

No pastors for Grail activities and I am no ashamed to tell you that I love the meassage so much it is not a religion. We are Christians.

For financial giving

2Corinthians 9:7: “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.”


Speaking of the attitude of the believers in Corinth about financial giving, Paul said: “This they did, not as we hoped, but even beyond that, first they gave their own selves to the Lord, and to us, by the will of God” (2 Cor. 8:5).



In the Old
Leviticus 27:30  
" 'A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD.

Leviticus 27:31  
If a man redeems ( i.e. with money )any of his tithe, he must add a fifth of the value to it.


Leviticus 27:32  
The entire tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd's rod—will be holy to the LORD.


Numbers 18:26  
"Speak to the Levites and say to them: 'When you receive from the Israelites the tithe I give you as your inheritance, you must present a tenth of that tithe as the LORD's offering.


Numbers 18:28  
In this way you also will present an offering to the LORD from all the tithes you receive from the Israelites. From these tithes you must give the LORD's portion to Aaron the priest.

Deuteronomy 12:17  
You must not eat in your own towns the tithe of your grain and new wine and oil, or the firstborn of your herds and flocks, or whatever you have vowed to give, or your freewill offerings or special gifts.

Hnd-holder:
Grail is a name and all woshippers of the true GoD are Grail followers. You can not still understand that. Check your dictionary.

I've decided to respect what you call yourselves. When I first used the term "Grail followers", I knew what I got!

Hnd-holder:
No pastors for Grail activities and I am no ashamed to tell you that I love the meassage so much it is not a religion. We are Christians.

I hear.

@Sister Pilgrim.1

Like a lot of politicians, to the undiscerning eye/ear, you make a seemingly compelling case, and a very believable manifesto, but it simply does not bear scrutiny.

1.
Abraham. Tithed once. Not periodically, be that yearly, thrice-yearly, every three years. To make it a pre-law practice that somehow transcends the law and settles neatly into NTC worship is nowhere bourne out by scripture.

On an ongoing basis, to whom would Abraham have tithed? Or how would he otherwise have disposed of his tithe?

There is no record of Isaac, Jacob or any other Hebrew or Israelite tithing before the advent of the levitical priesthood and the accompanying law.

Who would Isaac have tithed to? What priesthood was in effect? If there were two orders of priesthood, it is evident that there are two shadows and one fulfilling type in Christ, and none during the time of Isaac or Jacob.

Why did Jacob try and covenant to tithe if there was an edict in place? Why not just repent and pledge observance of the already enacted command?

2.
Your ploy of using Epistilery writings about giving or collection for the needy to read as "tithe & offering" is particularly disingenous, as is your fallacious view of the NT commanding a salaried ministerial class and again trying to read that as being supported by giving, which of course you read as "tithe & offering".

3.
Failure to to see that all you have succeeded in doing is re-incarnating (a dirty word in Christian circles) the now redundant mediatory priesthood, priest and non-priest classes and the consequent supporting structures. Pure man-made religion, which God amply demonstrated in the OT would never suffice in approaching Him.

4.
You further descend into error and expose your traditionally biased reading of scripture when you ascribe law bound teaching to the Apostle Paul. Claiming that his referencing the Law of Moses was in fact his declaring it still valid. Of all NT writers, the Apostle Paul was most vehemently opposed to any recourse to the law of Moses and withstood Peter and called him a hypocrite when he did so, even at what was a relatively superficial level.

More evidence of doublespeak when you attempt to use Abraham to introduce the tithe and then sneakily resort to the law (and misacribe paul as teaching it) to establish it, when you scream lounder than anyone that tithe is not by law, and that is not your premise

Would you try and convince me that you are not at all acquainted with the thrust and import of Galatians about the error and danger of trying to marry ther Judaic law with NTC life?

How about this for straters;

Galatians
2:11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.

5.
More Gobbledy-gok when you claim that tithe does not have to be 10%. You at once render the whole concept of a tithe meaningless - if it's not compulsory, not 10%, and the poor don't have to pay, what are it's distinguishing features? - and try to label it an unmistakeable NTC imperative?

6.
Claiming that The Lord did not speak at all about the types of giving, is indicative of your error of trying to income stream them. He didn't, simply because there aren't any. Giving in the Body is driven by need (and secondarily to bless). Not for salaries, programs, projects or buildings, all of which only become relevent with the man-made religion of clergy and temples and man-made traditions - like no trousers for women - and a need to support such and keep them occupied.

You are so wrong, it's alarming, and more so because the unknowing could tread long in the path of your error and all the commitant doctinal confusion. For that reason alone, I will continue to make the effort to withstand you.

God bless
TV

Amos 4:4  
"Go to Bethel and sin; go to Gilgal and sin yet more. Bring your sacrifices every morning, your tithes every three years. [ Or tithes on the third day ]

Nehemiah 10:37
"Moreover, we will bring to the storerooms of the house of our God, to the priests, the first of our ground meal, of our grain offerings, of the fruit of all our trees and of our new wine and oil. And we will bring a tithe of our crops to the Levites, for it is the Levites who collect the tithes in all the towns where we work.


Nehemiah 10:38  
A priest descended from Aaron is to accompany the Levites when they receive the tithes, and the Levites are to bring a tenth of the tithes up to the house of our God, to the storerooms of the treasury.


Nehemiah 12:44
At that time men were appointed to be in charge of the storerooms for the contributions, firstfruits and tithes. From the fields around the towns they were to bring into the storerooms the portions required by the Law for the priests and the Levites, for Judah was pleased with the ministering priests and Levites.


Nehemiah 13:5  
and he had provided him with a large room formerly used to store the grain offerings and incense and temple articles, and also the tithes of grain, new wine and oil prescribed for the Levites, singers and gatekeepers, as well as the contributions for the priests.


Nehemiah 13:12  
All Judah brought the tithes of grain, new wine and oil into the storerooms.

2 Chronicles 31:5 
As soon as the order went out, the Israelites generously gave the firstfruits of their grain, new wine, oil and honey and all that the fields produced. They brought a great amount, a tithe of everything.


2 Chronicles 31:6
The men of Israel and Judah who lived in the towns of Judah also brought a tithe of their herds and flocks and a tithe of the holy things dedicated to the LORD their God, and they piled them in heaps.


2 Chronicles 31:12
Then they faithfully brought in the contributions, tithes and dedicated gifts. Conaniah, a Levite, was in charge of these things, and his brother Shimei was next in rank.

Pual got these from old texts

We are not Isrealites and No levites here any body doing otherwise stole by method.

Deuteronomy 12:6 
there bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, what you have vowed to give and your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks.


Deuteronomy 12:11 
Then to the place the LORD your God will choose as a dwelling for his Name—there you are to bring everything I command you: your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, and all the choice possessions you have vowed to the LORD.


Deuteronomy 12:17 
You must not eat in your own towns the tithe of your grain and new wine and oil, or the firstborn of your herds and flocks, or whatever you have vowed to give, or your freewill offerings or special gifts.

Deuteronomy 14:22 
Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year.


Deuteronomy 14:23 
Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always.


Deuteronomy 14:24 
But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away),


Deuteronomy 14:25
then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose.


Deuteronomy 14:28
At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns,


Deuteronomy 26:1
[ Firstfruits and Tithes ] When you have entered the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance and have taken possession of it and settled in it,


Deuteronomy 26:12
When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied.

Who ever went against all these collecting peoples salary is stealing by method.

@TV01,

Rather than spend your energies of mind and dullness, I'd have expected you to discuss the points I raised, offer answers to the questions thereto, proffer clearly that what the verses I discussed could not have been referring to the issues I pointed out, etc. If you've made a politician out of your assertive denials so that you see nothing else to keep you happy, what's my worry?

Now, if you're rather bemused about what is the LAW, and you feel that the law has absolutely NOTHING at all to do with the Christian life ("about the error and danger of trying to marry ther Judaic law with NTC life"; then let me assure you that you're making more crank noise than ever before. Sorry, but that's the case - and I'll show you HOW, WHY and WHERE:

   (a) Did Paul or any of the apostle ever refer categorically to any part of the LAW for Christian life?

If you're so convinced that question deserves an absolute NO, then please never again refer to the NT epistles where you find indeed that the apostles referred to the LAW for the Christian life. HOW and WHERE did they do so? Let me show you:

What LAW was Paul referring to in the following? >>>

1 Cor. 14:34
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak;
but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the LAW.


1 Cor. 9:8-10
"Say I these things as a man? or saith not the LAW the same also?
For it is written in the LAW of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the
mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care
for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes,
no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope
and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Gal 5:14 (cf. Lev. 19:18)
"For all the LAW is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

1 John 3:4
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the LAW: for sin is the transgression of the LAW."

Of course, there are loads more. . . and I mean, loads more. But did you not just assert that it was an "error and danger of trying to marry ther Judaic law with NTC life?" So, what are all those verses doing in the NT if actually it was an error and danger for them to be there in the first place? Did you forget your favourite verse -- 1 Cor. 14:34 -- when you made that voodoo Gobbledy-gok of yours?

You're simply making a child of yourself, TV01. If you don't have something more worthwhile to entertain your adulators, save the rest of your macabre rehearsals and tidy up your utility-grade scholarship.