Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? - Islam for Muslims (2) - Nairaland
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| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by nossycheek(f): 1:02pm On Apr 23, 2007 |
@oyb my parents took us away from the north as soon as we started developing tiny breasts so that the beasts won't lay their filthy hands on us. @babs787 I don't waste my time arguing with an indecent and sexually perverse mallam  I weep for your soulA word is indeed enough for YOU! If you like go and commit suicide. There is no GUARANTEE OF SALVATION IN islam |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by Nobody: 6:29pm On Apr 23, 2007 |
I would rather give my daughter to a potent and not to an impotent. Let me ask you, what is really Jesus' age and why didnt he marry at his age? babs,may the very life in you be snuffed out before you subject any 9 year olds to sexual abuse,you pervert!! |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by sisimose(f): 6:36pm On Apr 23, 2007 |
ehne hen! save us is someone actually encouraging pedophilia? |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by Nobody: 8:38pm On Apr 23, 2007 |
we had someother guy categorically state in another thread that there was absolutely nothing wrong with marrying a 9 year old girl since Islam considered them mature.(Mohammed did same) If I could castrate him and feed him balls over the internet,I would have done it in a heartbeat,without anaesthesia,I might add. |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by sisimose(f): 8:40pm On Apr 23, 2007 |
I JUST DONT GET IT    |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by debosky(m): 8:41pm On Apr 23, 2007 |
castration is messy, I will loan you my bench vice so we can crush his genitals completely, that way there's no hope for re-attachment  |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by sisimose(f): 8:50pm On Apr 23, 2007 |
i worry about you *sighs* |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by Nobody: 9:02pm On Apr 23, 2007 |
hmm |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by sisimose(f): 9:07pm On Apr 23, 2007 |
baby what's the tune  |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by Nobody: 9:13pm On Apr 23, 2007 |
just the thought of crushing someones balls. It sounded very barbaric,castration seems more humane  |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by sisimose(f): 9:16pm On Apr 23, 2007 |
i really worry about you baby  |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by Nobody: 9:17pm On Apr 23, 2007 |
Ok,I wouldn't castrate anyone,happy now? |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by stimulus(m): 9:20pm On Apr 23, 2007 |
 Unu no go carry out Biko kwa, abeg make unu carry this conversation to IM on Yahoo, Hotmail, or AIM - man pikin dey squirm for im seat here O!!  @babyosisi, U see d mail wey I rush you jus now?? |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by pilgrim1(f): 11:11am On Apr 25, 2007 |
babs787: Okay, your opinion is best suited to you. Before I come back to serve you the issues you have been artfully dodging up until now, could you kindly answer the questions as to whether or not: (a) Muhammad expressed doubts about the message of salvation he preached? (b) he contradicted himself in both the Qur'an and ahadith on the basis of entering paradise? (c) the Qur'an and ahadith are saying the same things on guarateeing salvation to Muslims? (d) there is a consistent criteria for entering paradise; or just so many ideas that Muhammad wished on the spur of the moment? (no offences meant; and I'll offer why my question is thus worded). Then also, (e) does Islam teach that believing in Muhammad is to believe in Allah? (f) can ANYONE enter paradise with ANY sin at all? Thanks in advance. babs787: I've gone through them again and again, and compared them with other Islamic references - that's why I keep coming back asking the core questions that you failed to address. babs787: I know why I was created; and now I know for a certainty that I am saved. I had no confidence in my previous life as a Muslim that salvation was guaranteed - and I'll be offering my reasons for that, later. babs787: That's precisely what I want you to address - being "rest assured" (or, "guaranteed" . Hint: how could the same Muhammad give out a message of salvation in the Qur'an, and then still within his prophethood contradict the same message in the ahadith??Thanks. |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by babs787(m): 11:27am On Apr 25, 2007 |
@pilgrims Funny how you accused me of dodging your questions. (a) Muhammad expressed doubts about the message of salvation he preached? Nooo. (b) he contradicted himself in both the Qur'an and ahadith on the basis of entering paradise? Nooooo (c) the Qur'an and ahadith are saying the same things on guarateeing salvation to Muslims? Yes (d) there is a consistent criteria for entering paradise; or just so many ideas that Muhammad wished on the spur of the moment? (no offences meant; and I'll offer why my question is thus worded). Let me have yours Then also, (e) does Islam teach that believing in Muhammad is to believe in Allah? Yes (f) can ANYONE enter paradise with ANY sin at all? Yes So let me have your denial, hadith and verses from the Quran please |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by pilgrim1(f): 11:32am On Apr 25, 2007 |
@babs787, Could you please expound on your answers? I'd be grateful if you could especially give an outline (such as on #d, #e, #f), and then I could compare notes with what I have to offer you. Thanks. |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by babs787(m): 4:29pm On Apr 25, 2007 |
@pilgrim (d) there is a consistent criteria for entering paradise; or just so many ideas that Muhammad wished on the spur of the moment? (no offences meant; and I'll offer why my question is thus worded). Just like I replied your brother Islamic concept of salvation is not based upon good deeds, but is based primarily upon faith. In the dozens of times Allah Almighty talks in the Quran about salvation, he always states, "Those who believe and do good deeds." Belief is always mentioned before deeds or works. When one converts to Islam, one does not do it by doing some good work but rather through realizing and believing that there is but one God and Muhammed peace be upon him is his last messenger. Non-Muslims may perform good works as well, but what sets them apart from Muslims is their lack of Imaan (Aqeedah) [faith], or belief. The reason that the good works of the non-believers are worthless in the hereafter is because of their disbelief. Unless a person's imaan or aqeedah is not correct, all his good deeds are worthless. (e) does Islam teach that believing in Muhammad is to believe in Allah? Quran 4 v 80: He who obeys Muhammed (saw) has indeed obeyed Allah, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you (O Muhammed saw) as a watcher over them. (f) can ANYONE enter paradise with ANY sin at all? A sinner can enter paradise but will first taste Hell and remain there according to the weight of his sins. Hope I have communicated? So let me have yours Thanks. |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by olutomiwa(m): 6:29pm On Apr 25, 2007 |
this @babs787 sabi waste paper,na him type dey write nonsense for exams and go still dey beg invigilator for extra papers and end up having F9 or carry over. |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by pilgrim1(f): 8:46pm On Apr 25, 2007 |
@babs787, babs787: Thank you again. However, after patiently going through both posts, I have this comment to make: (a) you're correct that in the Qur'an, faith and works go together rather than stand alone. You can't really blame stimulus for not having been a muslim previously; but even so, his analysis is accurate to the last dot! (b) the reason why I say the above is because the criteria for entering paradise in Islam as taught in both the Qur'an and ahadith are in[/b]consistent. If faith [b]AND works are closely connected, mutually inclusive rather than exclusive, then it only makes sense that a man's faith must be produce good works. (c) that said, it is utterly untenable and illogical that a man may believe in Allah and enter paradise EVEN if he dies in his SINS! Is it not for the same reasons of "THEFTS" and "ILLEGAL SEXUAL INTERCOURSE" that Muslims have their hands cut off and women are stoned?? (even the stoning of women is one of the missing verses of the Qur'an, which again makes the book INCOMPLETE!!). (d) I see no reason why Islam should teach heinous punishments against those who commit such wicked sins if they would still enter paradise even though they die in their sins!! This is an indefensible contradiction. (e) Just imagine what kind of message is being preached in Islam if people can go out and commit ILLEGAL SEXUAL INTERCOURSE and still hope to enter paradise if they die in those sins, simply because they believed in 'Allah'! What does that say about the holiness of Muhammad's religion? Is it any wonder that people don't take sin seriously in Islam, and all the talk about "righteousness" is mere talk? You could just imagine asking Jesus the same question about SIN. Here is His answer: Luke 13 verse 2-3: "And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. verses 4-5: "Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem[b]?[/b] I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." A message that preaches hatred against ILLEGAL SEXUAL INTERCOURSE and still admits its perpetrators into paradise (even if they die in them) is NOT worthy of the name "religion". babs787: Does this not confirm the convoluted idea that Muhammad was merely a messenger? Look closely, babs787, and you will find that Muhammad set himself up at par with Allah; and there's no denying that fact. More to come when you deny that. babs787: I had hoped to read something more enlightening that what I already know is being taught in Islam. This is very sad, to say the least. If you had shown me without contradiction that a sinner could enter paradise but "will first REPENT of his/her sins," then perhaps you'd have caught my interest. Without contradiction, remember? This belief is why Muslims still have no clue of how seriously God takes the issue of sin. NO SINNER who dies in his/her sins can ever hope to get out of hell! As long as people believe that they will still enter paradise even if they die in their sins, there would be no genuine repentance from them. May God open you eyes to see this truth. The beauty of salvation in Jesus Christ is that the repentant sinner will NOT enter hell even for one minute!! Why? Because a merciful and forgiving God reaches out to the needy sinner in complete compassion, forgiveness, and redemption. If a person is striving after righteousness and still hoping to go to hell, what kind of message is that? Once a person gets into hell, all hope is LOST!! In the name of Jesus Christ, may hell never be the portion of anyone reading this discussion. Amen. |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by ricadelide(m): 10:01pm On Apr 25, 2007 |
pilgrim.1: Amen!! Lord, open the eyes of the deceived. |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by babs787(m): 3:47pm On Apr 26, 2007 |
@pilgrims (a) you're correct that in the Qur'an, faith and works go together rather than stand alone. You can't really blame stimulus for not having been a muslim previously; but even so, his analysis is accurate to the last dot! What analysis? (b) the reason why I say the above is because the criteria for entering paradise in Islam as taught in both the Qur'an and ahadith are inconsistent. If faith AND works are closely connected, mutually inclusive rather than exclusive, then it only makes sense that a man's faith must be produce good works. Please, let me have the inconsistence criteria. Let me ask, is it everybody that has faith, produces good work? Are you telling me that there are no Christian that believes in Jesus yet far from doing good work. Are you telling me that there are no assassin, armed robber, etc that believes in him yet indulge in those bad deeds?. Have you read the book of James (James 2v14-15) where it is said that faith without work is useless? Lets be honest with ourselves, there is no book that talks on Paradise and Hell as the Quran. The Bible confuses the whole issue of salvation. Many claim that faith in Jesus Christ is enough for salvation as being put by John 3 v 15- 18. If you are laying claim to that, then is a problem as there are other verses that go against that. For example the Gospel says that whoever believes and is baptized will gain paradise (Mark 16 v 16) that leaves us to wonder about the fate of those born again Christians that died or are alive without being baptized. I doubt it if you yourself has been baptized. Now going through the bible, one wonders if faith alone can make one to have salvation (john 3 v 15-18) or faith with baptism (mark 16 v 16) or faith with works (james 2 v 14-15). Which of those qualifies one for Paradise? Further, in the books of Ephesians 1:4-6 and Revelation 17:8, everybody is pr-destined for either heaven of hell before the ‘foundation of the world’. Meaning that no one can be saved except his name is written in the beginning whether you are born again or not and whether you have been baptized or not. Also, no one can gain paradise except God wants (John 6 v 65), meaning that it is based on God’s decision and will save someone when he likes. So let me have your explanation on the above from your bible. As for Islam, belief comes first followed by good deeds. (c) that said, it is utterly untenable and illogical that a man may believe in Allah and enter paradise EVEN if he dies in his SINS! Is it not for the same reasons of "THEFTS" and "ILLEGAL SEXUAL INTERCOURSE" that Muslims have their hands cut off and women are stoned?? (even the stoning of women is one of the missing verses of the Qur'an, which again makes the book INCOMPLETE!!). You my sister with your incomplete Quran! Firstly, if God a believer that believes in God is condemned and doomed for Hell, tell me what kind of father is that as being claimed by you. Must a father condemn his son forever for sin committed? Islam stands on this is the best. I didn’t refer to those that have their hands cut, they have received their punishment. That reminds me, did jesus not tell that he didn’t come to annul any law? Why did God Jesus made law in the OT and you never judge by it? If you are believer but you commit any of those sin, you will be in Hell depending on the weight of your sin and will be moved to Paradise because of the belief afyer serving your punishment. On that day, Allah will allow the prophets, martyrs, angels and the believers to intercede for inmates of hell who testified to His ones, believe in Him but were deficient in their deeds. The Hell to them will be like a hospital established for the treatment of their painful diseases (terrible sins). Consequent upon their sufferings, there will naturally be the shrieks, cries, weeping etc. these will not cease until the end of the treatment is reached. After their through cleansing, Allah will then allow Muslims to intercede for those Muslims saying, they are our brothers, we used to pray together, fast together, etc and Allah will tell them to remove from Hell anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of one (gold) Dinar. Further, Allah will tell them to take out from the fire those that have faith equal to the weight of one and half Dinar and finally those having faith equal to the weight of an atom. (d) I see no reason why Islam should teach heinous punishments against those who commit such wicked sins if they would still enter paradise even though they die in their sins!! This is an indefensible contradiction. Read above and for further clarification, if those that have committed those sins will be in Hell, it would include David that fornicates with his neighbour’s wife, Samson that slept with Harlot, Lots Daughters, Judah, etc will inherit Hell. They would taste hell and stay there according to the weight of their sins but will be moved to Paradise because of their faith. (e) Just imagine what kind of message is being preached in Islam if people can go out and commit ILLEGAL SEXUAL INTERCOURSE and still hope to enter paradise if they die in those sins, simply because they believed in 'Allah'! What does that say about the holiness of Muhammad's religion? Is it any wonder that people don't take sin seriously in Islam, and all the talk about "righteousness" is mere talk? Sister, I have explained above. No sane person or believer will go about fornicating. If you really believe in God and wants his favour, you will avoid sin knowing that sin delays whatever one asks from God and keeps one off from him. And if it happens that the person committed it, fine, he would be punished in Hell and serve his term in Hell according to the weight of his crime. So if they would be in Hell for eternity, it means that David, Samson , Lots Daughters, Judah etc would be in hell. You could just imagine asking Jesus the same question about SIN. Here is His answer: Luke 13 verse 2-3: "And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. verses 4-5: "Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." A message that preaches hatred against ILLEGAL SEXUAL INTERCOURSE and still admits its perpetrators into paradise (even if they die in them) is NOT worthy of the name "religion". A question for you, what would be the fate of include David that fornicates with his neighbour’s wife, Samson that slept with Harlot, Lots Daughters, Judah on that day because they have committed grievous sins? (e) does Islam teach that believing in Muhammad is to believe in Allah? Does this not confirm the convoluted idea that Muhammad was merely a messenger? Look closely, babs787, and you will find that Muhammad set himself up at par with Allah; and there's no denying that fact. More to come when you deny that. In what way did he set himself up at par with Allah? Allah sends Muhammed and believing in Him is believing in Allah that sent him just like as you put that believing in Jesus is believing in God. Please let me have your claim. Muhammed is not Allah for your understanding, he was His messenger. (f) can ANYONE enter paradise with ANY sin at all? I had hoped to read something more enlightening that what I already know is being taught in Islam. This is very sad, to say the least. If you had shown me without contradiction that a sinner could enter paradise but "will first REPENT of his/her sins," then perhaps you'd have caught my interest. Without contradiction, remember? And if the sinner died in it, it means that he would be in Hell despite his faith. What kind of father is that that will condemn his son for life? Then my question again, what will be the fate of David that fornicates with his neighbour’s wife, Samson that slept with Harlot, Lots Daughters, Judah that committed grievous sins? This belief is why Muslims still have no clue of how seriously God takes the issue of sin. NO SINNER who dies in his/her sins can ever hope to get out of hell! As long as people believe that they will still enter paradise even if they die in their sins, there would be no genuine repentance from them. Islamically, if you repent of your sin, you would be forgiven. And if you die in your sin, you will be judged accordingly and serve your punishment in hell if it warrants it. I wonder what kind of father is your God that decides to condemn his son for life for sins committed. Once again, your bible never tells you that we have 7 heavens and everybody will be in each according to his faith and deeds. (Do you have that in Christianity too?) May God open you eyes to see this truth. The beauty of salvation in Jesus Christ is that the repentant sinner will NOT enter hell even for one minute!! Why? Because a merciful and forgiving God reaches out to the needy sinner in complete compassion, forgiveness, and redemption. Sister, stop contradicting yourself. So repentant will not taste paradise. What of those that have been killers, fraudsters and changed to pastors, are you saying its hell straight? Then if there is no need for forgiveness of sins, Jesus wouldn’t have said that he came to call the sinners and not the righteous and there wouldn’t be any need for him preaching repentance and telling his disciples to do same. My eyes is already opened, it is you that should check yourself. I am Muslim and will die as one. If you sin and you seek forgiveness, you would be forgiven. Quran 2 v 186: When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way Quran 4 v 48: Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin most heinous indeed. If a person is striving after righteousness and still hoping to go to hell, what kind of message is that? Once a person gets into hell, all hope is LOST!! If one is striving towards righteousness, he would not indulge in sin. I wonder what kind of God Christians worship. What will be the fate of David that fornicates with his neighbour’s wife, Samson that slept with Harlot, Lots Daughters, Judah that committed grievous sins? In the name of Jesus Christ, may hell never be the portion of anyone reading this discussion. Amen. Amen for those that refused to accept the truth despite the fact that they have seen it and may their faces be opened before its too late (Amin) Take care  |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by babs787(m): 3:54pm On Apr 26, 2007 |
Quran 2 v 111: And they say: 'None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.' Those are their (vain) desires. Say, 'Produce your proof if you are truthful.' To the unbelievers; that reject truth Quran 16 v 25: Let them bear, on the Day of Judgment, their own burdens in full, and also (something) of the burdens of those without knowledge, whom they misled. Alas, how grievous the burdens they will bear! Quran 29 v 13; They will bear their own burdens, and (other) burdens along with their own, and on the Day of Judgments they will be called to account for their falsehoods. Quran 98 v 6: Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein. They are the worst of creatures. Peace. |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by jeshua(m): 4:09pm On Apr 26, 2007 |
babs787:BABS787- I DO SINCERELY APOLOGIZE FOR WHATEVER RUDE RESPONSE YOU HAVE RECIEVED FROM THE OTHERS REPLIES. I HAVE LIVED IN THE NORTH, MY UNCLE HAD BEEN KILLED BY******* BECAUSE HE WAS A PASTOR BUT I AM NOT BITTER AT YOU OR THE ISLAMIC RELIGION AS A WHOLE. INFACT, I HAVE BEEN CHALLENGED BY YOUR LIFESTYLE AND RELIGIOUS COMMITMENTS. PERSONALLY, ALL RELIGIONS ARE SUPERFICIALLY THE SAME-THE ARE LIKE A SIGN BOARD OR BETTER STILL A SIGN POST TELLING YOU HOW TO GET TO HEAVEN BUT A SIGN POST NEVER GETS YOU THERE BECOS A SIGN POST CANT WALK OR TAKE YOU BY THE HANDS TO WHERE YOU ARE GOING. THE NAME CHRISTIANITY WAS THE NOT THE NAME GIVEN BY GOD OR JESUS BUT BY PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT BELIEVERS OF CHRIST BECOS THEY SAW THE DISCIPLES BEHAVING EXACTLY LIKE JESUS CHRIST. IT IS NOT A RELIGION THAT CHRIST OFFERS IT IS THE TRUTH. DONT GET ME WRONG OR SIMPLY SAY I AM BIAS YET. YOU KNOW WHEN I WAS A BOY, I WENT OUT IN SEARCH OF THE TRUTH ABOUT LIFE AFTER TRYING EVERYTHING THAT I THOUGHT CHRISTIANITY OFFERED. I GOT A QURAN AND I BEGAN TO READ AND I WAS INQUISITIVE (IT WAS AN ENGLISH TRANSLATION PRODUCED BY THE FORMER BENDEL STATE GOVERNMENT), I STILL HAVE THE QURAN IN MY ROOM AT HOME. I DISCOVERED SO MANY SIMILARITIES AND I WAS BAFFLED-IT SEEMS THE CORE MESSAGE OF THE MUSLIM HOLY BOOK WAS SIMILAR TO THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE TOO. I WAS TROUBLED AND I FELT LIKE ALONE AND HOPELESS. TT MADE DEMAND OF ME TO ATTAIN RIGHTEOUSNESS. THEN ONE DAY I WAS IN CHURCH, THEN THE PREACHER ASKED US HOW ARE WE SURE OF GOING TO HEAVEN IF WE DIE? I COULDNT ANSWER, IT WAS THE VERY SAME QUESTION THAT GOT ME THINKING IN THE FIRST PLACE. YOU SAID YOU HAVE ONCE TRIED CHRISTIANITY AND YOU HAVE COME TO ACCEPT ISLAM. I DO NOT BLAME YOU-I FELT THE SAME WAY TOO.I WAS EVEN FASCINATED BY THE RITUALS IN ISLAM, CHRISTIANS CAN MISS CHURCH AND STILL SAY THEY ARE CHRISTIANS BUT A TRUE MUSLIM PRAYS FIVE TIMES AND ASPIRES TO FOLLOW THE OTHER TENETS, I WAS FASCINATED. BUT THAT DAY, THE PREACHER ASKED ME A QUESTION THAT I DIDNT WANT ANOTHER PERSON TO ASK ME, NOT TO TALK OF GOD THE ALMIGHTY.HOW I WAS SURE OF SALVATION AND HEAVEN?I HAVE TRIED TO BE GOOD, I HAVE TRIED TO DO GOOD THINGS AND INSPITE OF MY ATTEMPTS I WAS STILL NOT SURE. TODAY WE READ ABOUT MUSLIMS BLOWING UP THEMSELVES TO BASICALLY TO DO THE WILL OF ALLAH AND GET TO PARADISE. THE DESIRE TO COME TO A PLACE OF JOY AND PEACE CAN MAKE ANY SERIOUS PERSON DO ANYTHING. IN ANCIENT TIMES, AFRICAN WARRIORS DID EXTRAORDINARY THINGS BECAUSE THEY KNEW THAT AFTER SUCH ACTS THEY WILL BE REVERRED AND HIGHLY PLACED. IT IS THAT SAME DESIRE FOR GOD TO BE PLEASED WITH US AND PUT US IN A STATE OF PEACE AND SATISFACTION. I KNOW THAT IS WHAT YOU WERE LOOKING FOR WHEN YOU BECAME A MUSLIM. THE PREACHER THAT DAY NOW TOLD ME (PLEASE PERMIT ME TO REFER TO ME INSTEAD OF US) THAT ALL MY ATTEMPTS TO FIND PEACE AND ASSURANCE OF THE FUTURE'S BLISS IS LIKE A FILTHY RAG BEFORE A GOD WHOSE HOLINESS AND RIGHTEOUSNESS IS BEYOND HUMAN COMPREHENSION. IT IS CLEAR I AM UNHOLY AND GOD IS HOLY, I AM TRYING TO BE HOLY TO PLEASE HIM AND BE ACCEPTABLE TO HIM. MUSLIMS SAY THEY ARE SLAVES AND CHRISTIANS SAY THEY ARE CHILDREN, IT IS ALL ABOUT ATTEMPT AT HAVING A RELATIONSHIP WITH A "GOD" WHO IS ABOVE AND HOLY. YOU TALK ABOUT DOING GOOD TO CANCEL THE BAD, EVEN IF YOU DONT WANT TO DO EVIL, YOU AND I KNWE HOW MANY TIMES WE HAVE FOUND OURSELVES DOING WHAT WE DO NOT WISH TO DO. THE PREACHER SAID, GOD KNOWS WE HAVE ALL SINNED AND HE SEES THAT WE ARE TRYING TO MAKE THINGS RIGHT BUT OUR LIFE HAS BEING SOLD OUT TO SIN, WE CANT SIMPLY HELP OURSELVES-AND THAT IS VERY TRUE. I KNOW PRAYING, BEING NICE AND KIND AND EVERY GOOD THING I DO, WONT CHANGE THE FACT THAT I AM HELPLESS TO SIN. HE SAID ALL RELIGIOUS LEADERS CAME TO OFFER A WAY OUT BUT THAT JESUS CHRIST DIDNT OFFER A WAY OUT BUT HE OFFERED HIMSELF HAS THE WAY OUT. HE SAID GOD BECAME MAN, EVEN THE JEWS OF JESUS TIME CONFESSED THAT WHAT HE DID AND PERFORM, ONLY GOD COULD HAVE DONE IT. THE QURAN EVEN NARRATED AMAZING RECORDS OF WHAT JESUS CHRIST DID. I WAS BAFFLED THAT GOD HIMSELF OFFERED A SOLUTION FOR MY SITUATION AND IT DOES NOT REQUIRE ME DOING ANYTHING TO BECOME HOLY TO MAKE HEAVEN BUT ALL I NEEDED WAS TO ACCEPT THAT JESUS CHRIST TOOK MY PLACE ON THE CROSS, I WAS SUPPOSED TO DIE, BUT HE DIED (FOR THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEAD) IN MY PLACE. FOR THE FIRST I SAW WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR. I DONT HAVE TO STRUGLGLE TO BE ACCEPTABLE TO GOD ANYMORE BECASUE THE VERY RECORD OF THE SINLESSNESS OF JESUS CHRIST HAS BEEIN TRANSFERED TO ME. HE SAID ACCEPTING CHRIST JESUS GIVES YOU PEACE AND HOPE AND NOW IT WILL BE POSSIBLE FOR ME TO LIVE HOLY AND IF I FAIL IN MY WORK WITH GOD, THAT I HAVE AN ADVOCATE WHO UNDERSTANDS THE TROUBLE I FACE AND THE TEMPTATIONS I FACE HAS A HUMAN BEING. JESUS CHRIST SPEAKS UP FOR ME. THAT IS WHAT NO OTHER PROPHET OR RELIGIOUS LEADER EVER DID. I CONFESSED MY SIN AND ASKED JESUS CHRIST TO BE MY LORD AND SAVIOUR AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT I INSTANTLY FELT THE PEACE IN MY HEART AND MY LIFE CHANGED, NOW IT IS EASY TO LIVE HOLY. I CANT SAY ITS BEEN PERFECT ALL THROUGH BUT I CAN ALWAYS TRUST THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST THAT GAVE ME PEACE THAT DAY TO KEEP ME GOING. NOVEMBER 1986 CHANGED MY LIFE FOREVER. YOU MIGHT ASK THEN IF I AM SURE OR HOW DO I KNOW IF MY SALVATION IS GUARANTEED NOW? VERY GOOD, HE PROMISED TO GIVE MY PEACE-HE DID IT HE PROMISED TO GIVE ME HIS SPIRIT-HE DID (BECAUSE NOW I CAN HEAR HIM SPEAK IN AND TO ME) IF HE HAS FULFILLED THE PROMISES HE MADE THEN I CAN TRUST HIM TO DO THAT WHICH I HAVE NOT SEEN. I DONT KNOW IF THIS IS THE KIND OF CHRISTIANITY YOU TRIED OR THE ONE I FIRST TRIED AND WAS DISSAPOINTED? IF YOU SEEK FOR PEACE AND GUARANTEE OF SALVATION IN THE RELIGION OF CHRISTIANITY,YOU WILL BE DISSAPOINTED BUT IF YOU WILL TRY CHRIST TODAY HE SAID-" I STAND AT THE DOOR AND KNOCK, IF ANY ONE WILL HEAR MY VOICE AND OPEN THE DOOR, I WILL COME COME IN , " REV. 3:20. IF YOU FORGET ANYTHING THAT I HAVE SAID DONT FORGET THIS-GOD LOVES YOU AND OFFERS A WONDERFUL PLAN FOR YOUR LIFE. MUSLIMS KILLED MY UNCLE BUT IF THEY KNEW BETTER, THEY WOULD HAVE KNOWN, SATISFACTION DOES NOT COME FROM WHAT YOU DO BUT WHAT GOD HIMSELF DID. LOVE YOU BROTHER. |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by babs787(m): 5:06pm On Apr 26, 2007 |
@jeshua Thanks but no thanks. What is your conclusion, please be factual and tell me how to get salvation in christianity. I have tried the two religion and can confidently tell you that no religion that teaches Paradise as Islam. Al-Quran is my sure link with Allah, proof me wrong and I will join yours. On the issue of salvation, pastors too are confused and if they are not, please explain these to me The Bible confuses the whole issue of salvation. Many claim that faith in Jesus Christ is enough for salvation as being put by John 3 v 15- 18. If you are laying claim to that, then is a problem as there are other verses that go against that. For example the Gospel says that whoever believes and is baptized will gain paradise (Mark 16 v 16) that leaves us to wonder about the fate of those born again Christians that died or are alive without being baptized. I doubt it if you yourself has been baptized. Now going through the bible, one wonders if faith alone can make one to have salvation (john 3 v 15-18) or faith with baptism (mark 16 v 16) or faith with works (james 2 v 14-15). Which of those qualifies one for Paradise? Further, in the books of Ephesians 1:4-6 and Revelation 17:8, everybody is pr-destined for either heaven of hell before the ‘foundation of the world’. Meaning that no one can be saved except his name is written in the beginning whether you are born again or not and whether you have been baptized or not. Also, no one can gain paradise except God wants (John 6 v 65), meaning that it is based on God’s decision and will save someone when he likes. Which do I take Thank you and God bless. |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by jeshua(m): 12:11pm On Apr 28, 2007 |
babs787:I don't think you actually read what I wrote, you said you have tried the two Religions but if you really followed my write up, you will see that I told you about Christianity as a religion which you and I have tried and discovered the same vacuum but i also told you another christ-like Life- Jesus said; "I have come that they might have life and life abundantly". he didnt come to offer a religion like Islam and every other religions but Life. You also said Pastors are confused about salvation, I don't actuallly think I know what you are trying to say. The Bible is very clear about salvation and if you feel confused then why don't you ask sincerely with a heart that wants to know the truth. Atleast the Quran told you ask from the "people of the book" if you were confused. just like you have Imams saying things contrary to the hermeneutics of the Quran so do you have people who may not understand what they are talking about. but you quoted, John 3:15-18, Jesus said thoes words to some one who thought like you he had tried Christ not knowing he only tried a religion. "The Drum beaters only announces the Masquerade but they are not the MAsquerade it self. There is no place where the Bible says "believe and be baptized to enter "PARADISE". Maybe you need to give chapter and verse. When the bible speaks of believe and be baptized, do you know into what the baptism entails? To you you think just dipping in water but the bible teaches that baptizing them into the name of Jesus Christ. The water doesnt save anybody, maybe you have beeen baptized before too, you only took a bath. Because when we are baptized, we are baptized into jesu, it is symbolic of what our spirit had done when we repent of our sins and accept that jesus Died in our stead on the cross and we give him our life and trust him to cleanse us. The baptism is into Jesus the annointed of God. by the way i have been baptized too, not take abth. I was saved before i was baptized and i showed the joining of my lspirit with the Spirit of christ by the water baptism. Now going through the bible, one wonders if faith alone can make one to have salvation (john 3 v 15-18) or faith with baptism (mark 16 v 16) or faith with works (james 2 v 14-15). Which of those qualifies one for Paradise? When you speak of faith, we understand what the bible says by allowing the Bible to interprete the bible with the help of Gods Spirit, just like you will trust the sayings of the Prophet(SAW) to better understand some difficult topics in the Quran(correct me sincerely if i am wrong). Only the Bible interpretes the Bible. Mark 16: 16 talks about baptizing into the name of the father, the son and the holy Spirit just like I told you, it only comes after you have believed because you faith in the saving work of Jesus Christ gives you salvation. James 2:14-15 was James address to a paople who thought that because they were saved then they don't need to cater for the physical needs of people but just tell them to go and it is well, James said, if you anything to do to help, do it. Dont send the needy away saying that a miracle will happen when you have what he needs with you. Some times you see people who can help you but they ask you to fend for yourself because to them you still have a lot to learn in life and they are not ready to hand you the ticket free of charge. That is what was happenning to these people. James told them to show their good works too not just talk about faith. In a nutshell, he was saying show what you believe-if you say you have love in your heart show LOVE, if you say you are pursuing PEACE, then always seek for peace no matter what. Further, in the books of Ephesians 1:4-6 and Revelation 17:8, everybody is pr-destined for either heaven of hell before the ‘foundation of the world’. Meaning that no one can be saved except his name is written in the beginning whether you are born again or not and whether you have been baptized or not. Also, no one can gain paradise except God wants (John 6 v 65), meaning that it is based on God’s decision and will save someone when he likes. The bible didnt talk about you being predestined for hell. The Bible says God does not wish that anyone should perish but it is your choice, I am sort of like amused at your quotation in the book of revelation, the Bible speaks of those who follow the Beast and are decieved and they end up perishing with him. Let me give you a better place Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!. You don't go to hell because God wished it for you but because you refused to make the vital decision for Christ Jesus. But I know it is even Islam that is fatalistic in nature. You seem to be used to quoting out of context and adding what is not there. I don't think I see anything there that reads PARADISE. Jesus said that to some people who wanted to be his disciples but felt just like you that some things which he was saying was too difficult and hard to accept(read from verse 52). They thought they could threaten him to stop by attempting to leave Him but he told them God controls things and they can't frightened him but that God will bring does who will listen and follow the truth he proclaims. I hope you will read carefully this post and the former to better understand the picture. You don't approach the Bible with the mind you have that says, "there is a problem here and I am going to find it to prove there is problem". I love you but i believe that God loves you more than you can ever know. Just be sincere about it, are you sure you are really sure? Can you bank on your good works to save you? Have you done enough to guarantee you are secured? To me, i am not good, the Bible says, it is by "Grace that i am saved not by works". i can't do enough to be saved, i will rather choose to trust him who promised me salvation because if He can die for me, then he will do anything to save me. Islam teaches that Jesus was to great to be killed, it is true, all religions that spoke of Christ narrated his greatness and purity and I totally agree, they couldnt have killed Him because Jesus christ himself confessed-"NO ONE TOOK MY LIFE, "John 10:18a but Listen to the rest:"No one can take my life from me. I lay down my life voluntarily. For I have the right to lay it down when I want to and also the power to take it again. For my Father has given me this command."-John 10:18. He gave His lfe so so can stop running and have peace. People will fail you, only Christ wont, why don't you just try him now and differentiate between Jesus Christ who died for you and the Religion Christianity. I have tasted Him and i know I have found what everyman seeks for, for God has set a vacuum in everymans heart : Ecc 3:11 says;" He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put [b]eternity[/b]Vacuum in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end". what do you want, peace or you want to keep telling yourself you know what you are doing until, you have tried and you are still trying but you know you are doing enough to get a reach of Gods holiness and mercy. Pro 28:26 The one who trusts in his own heart is a fool, but the one who walks in wisdom will escape. Ecc 11:9 Rejoice, young man, while you are young, and let your heart cheer you in the days of your youth. Follow the impulses of your heart and the desires of your eyes, but know that God will judge your motives and actions. check this website:http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/YesLord/howtobe.htm Hope to hear from you again? You either accept or reject Jesu Christ because He is now the issue |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by pilgrim1(f): 1:30pm On Apr 28, 2007 |
@jeshua, jeshua: What exactly do you mean by Christianity; and how does that differ from the faith practiced by those called Christians in the Bible? jeshua: I'm glad you could spot that out for him. jeshua: The Qur'an cannot survive on its own - Muslims MUST depend on the ahadith to interpret and understand the message of 'Allah's' book. Further, the hadith itself notes that there are certain verses of the Qur'an which are not clear to Muslims; and anyone among them who follows those unclear verses of the Qur'an are misled!! jeshua: I couldn't agree more. Muslims will often tell you that they believe in ALL the revelations of the Biblical prophets (that is in reference to Qur'an 2:136); but in reality, they really do not believe in those revelations at all. That is why when asked where those revelations can be found today, they make the excuses that they are LOST, or have been corrupted. The question then is, why would 'Allah' be asking them to believe in revelations that are lost or have been corrupted?? Anyone who carefully studies that Qur'an and ahadith cannot miss the fact that Muhammad himself used the very Scriptures of the Old Testament that the Jews used - especially the Torah given to Moses. The claim that the 'original' is LOST or corrupted is not true; and any Muslim holding on to that lie is revealing the fact that he/she believes nothing about the Biblical revelations/Scriptures; and that is why they make that claim contrary to what the Qur'an and hadith say. May God help them come to Jesus Christ for salvation before it is too late. |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by babs787(m): 9:34am On May 02, 2007 |
@jeshua & pilgrim Apart from the handshake, I am still celebrating liverpool's victory over that yeye Chelsea but the debate or argument will resume soon and all your posts will be attended to. I am plotting chelsea's fall on Sunday and this debate may resume after or before champions league final. You will surely hear from me. Take care |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by TayoD(m): 1:40pm On May 02, 2007 |
@topic, Jesus said: "salvation is of the Jews." Until you can prove that Mohammed is a Jew, I find no basis to even begin to think that Islam, a product of the Arabs, will provide anything close to salvation. |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by babs787(m): 2:28pm On May 02, 2007 |
@tayod Jesus said: [b[i]]"salvation is of the Jews."[/i] [/b] Until you can prove that Muhammad is a Jew, I find no basis to even begin to think that Islam, a product of the Arabs, will provide anything close to salvation. Honestly most christians do not think before addressing issues. They dont know that anything being said, goes back to them. The above italicised word calls for some questions 1. What do you understand by that word, 'salvation is of the jews'? 2. Are you a jew? 3. Do christians and Jews share the same belief, read the same holy book etc ? 4. Was he sent to you? Then after that, I will provide verses on the above from my book. You may suspend you answers till after the champions league final, we are still celebrating. |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by stimulus(m): 3:09pm On May 02, 2007 |
@babs787, babs787: Do you really think before jumping in to address issues at all? babs787: If you understand anything better, please share and don't start another argument pretending you don't understand English anymore! "Salvation is of the Jews" in context of the discourse Jesus had with the woman in John 4:22 simply means that it is from the Jews that salvation will come to the nations of the world. babs787: Does one need to be a Jew before receiving salvation in Jesus Christ? babs787: And what is that supposed to prove? Do Muslims and Jews share the same beliefs - do they read the same book, etc? Christians are not Jews to whom were committed Judaism; but believing Jews and Christians believe in the OT prophecies prointing to their NT fulfillment. Not to even mention that Muslims do not believe in the so-called "revelations" which Muhammad said were given by 'Allah'. babs787: Jesus Christ was sent to the whole world - John 3:16. |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by babs787(m): 4:46pm On May 02, 2007 |
@stimulus Honestly I dont want to indulge in roundabout argument that lacks proofs, facts etc, I really dey enjoy sport threads babs787, If you understand anything better, please share and don't start another argument pretending you don't understand English anymore! "Salvation is of the Jews" in context of the discourse Jesus had with the woman in John 4:22 simply means that it is from the Jews that salvation will come to the nations of the world. Before going further on the issue of salvation going to the jews. Please explain the below verse Mathew 1 v 21: she will bear a son, and you shall call his name jesus, for he will save his people from their sins. Another question here, who are Jesus's people? Quote from: babs787 on Today at 02:28:04 PM 2. Are you a jew? Does one need to be a Jew before receiving salvation in Jesus Christ? Did you see what your brother write "salvation is of the Jews." meaning that Jews only will be saved am asking what of those that are not Jews. If you are not a Jew, no salvation for you because salvation is for jews. Quote from: babs787 on Today at 02:28:04 PM 3. Do christians and Jews share the same belief, read the same holy book etc ? And what is that supposed to prove? Do Muslims and Jews share the same beliefs - do they read the same book, etc? Still on the same topic. If salvation of of the jews, how come your holy book is different from theirs? If salvation comes from the jews to other nations as said by you, why dont you follow their holy books? Christians are not Jews to whom were committed Judaism; but believing Jews and Christians believe in the OT prophecies prointing to their NT fulfillment. Not to even mention that Muslims do not believe in the so-called "revelations" which Muhammad said were given by 'Allah'. Brother, you drew me into this so you must be prepared for the questions. Do Jews and Christians follow the same Testaments? Quote from: babs787 on Today at 02:28:04 PM 4. Was he sent to you? Jesus Christ was sent to the whole world - John 3:16. Brother, was it Jesus that said the statement in John 3 v 16 and is Jesus the only begotten son really? Also I will be giving you verses that said that he was not sent to the whole world but to the nations of Israel including the twelve tribes of Israel. |
| Re: Does Islam Guarantee Salvation? by stimulus(m): 7:18pm On May 02, 2007 |
@babs787, babs787: Do you really acknowledge the textual proof, facts, etc. that are being offered in any discussion at all? Has it not been your trademark to conveniently use Bible verses and then deny others where they do not fit into your agenda? When you're talking about "proof" and "facts", do you ever mind those that are very often provided? babs787: The Jews are the people from which Jesus' lineage is traced, and let us not forget that this is in fulfillment of OT prophecies and not mere coincidence. Matthew 1:21 points to the salvation Jesus would bring to the Jews. There are also OT prophecies declaring the same thing; and Psa. 130:8 is well known among the Jews: "And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities." However, Scripture also speaks of the fact that the same salvation in Jesus Christ shall be offered to non-Jews - to all the nations of the world: Isaiah 11:10 - "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious." Isaiah 52:10 - "The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God." Luke 24:46-47 - "And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." The problem with the typical Muslim thinking lies in taking a few verses (usually out of context) and disregarding the rest in selective arguments. The idea that some verses are true and the others untrue carries no weight of persuasion; and the collective testimony of Scripture is that Jesus Christ is the Saviour both of Jews and Gentiles. babs787: Thank you for your usual fallacious argument; but it is still begging the question. The Bible never said "Jews only will be saved"; for if that were true, then YOU babs787 are damned as well for being a non-Jew! Clearly, Jesus' statement was conveying the understanding that salvation comes from (or proceeds from) the Jews, and not from any other nation. God had promised this salvation through Abraham, saying to the patriarch, "in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed" (Gen. 12:3). That promise was reiterated in Gen. 22:18 where God said to him: "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice." That this promise was to be fulfilled, not through the Arabs, but rather through the lineage of the Jews (through Isaac), is confirmed in Gen. 17:21 where God said: "But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year". God further reaffirmed this in Gen. 21:12 when He said, "for in Isaac shall thy seed be called." When Jesus made the statement of John 4:22 ("salvation is of the Jews" , He was affirming the very same thing God had spoken severally right from Genesis. He did not mean at all that 'Jews alone will be save'; for His salvation is offered to whosoever believes - Jews and Gentiles. "The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God." (Isaiah 52:10).babs787: It all depends what you mean by "follow" their holy books. The OT contains the prophecies of the redemption that was to come through the Messiah (e.g., Isaiah 9:6 and ch. 53). In the NT, we find their fulfillment (e.g., Gal. 4:4-5). As such, the OT typologies of sacrifices for sins do not continue as a literal observance; for they find their fulfillment in Jesus Christ, who Himself said He came to fulfill them for us (Matt. 5:17). Now, it would be such a towering display of ignorance for anyone to suggest that the OT sacrifices should take the place of Christ who has fulfilled them for us. It is clear from the OT itself that the sinaitic Law (the Law of Moses) did not take away sin (cf. Heb. 10:4 & 11 with Psa. 51:16 and Jer. 7:22-23). Those sacrifices only prefigured the perfect sacrifice we find in Jesus Christ, of whom it is said: "Behold, the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). Certainly, there are principles of life in the OT from which we as Christians still learn from for our walk with God. But the OT worship under Judaism was never committed to Christians in the first place. That is why Jesus in the same John 4 clearly taught that true worshippers would no longer need to go to Jerusalem; but would rather worship the Father in spirit and in truth (vss. 21 & 23). Since you make so much noise about this issue, do you as a Muslim follow the holy Book of the Jews? How come Muhammad's revelations from 'Allah' is so different from the revelations given unto the Jewish prophets? babs787: I've answered you just above. You drew yourself (as you usually do) into this discussion and are trying to invite an unnecessary argument (as you usually do). So, you must be ready to answer several other questions that will be served you in exactly the same way that you have been disingenuously calumniating the Christian faith. babs787: Dear babs787, open your eyes and read the whole of the NT - and read it in its context, instead of the usual way of Islamic selective thinking and argument. If you are readily happy to to quote one set of verses for your argument, be honest enough to admit to what the other set of verses say, even though you find yourself knotted. That said, John 3:16 was spoken by Jesus, and He is the only begotten Son of God. His mission was to the whole world, even though He first presented Himself to His people the Jews. |
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