₦airaland Forum

[quote author=tpia. link=topic=380562.msg5311267#msg5311267 date=1263434785]@ no2atheism

quick correction:

Adumu was the father of Ujo, an important prince and founder of many Ijaw clans.

Adumu also goes by other names, one of which is identified as Oduduwa.

You may remember tales of how Oduduwa sent many of his descendants out to rule over surrounding towns and also founded a lot of city-states.



Now, I'm not saying its set in stone, but i believe the various sites with this information got it from somewhere, most likely the old books. Which in turn were based on written tradition.



http://www.ijawdictionary.com/menu/TheIjoGenesis.pdf

He's also called Adimu in some accounts.



Point is- this oral tradition shows an Ife link.[/quote]Correction taken and noted . . .

Please how do i embedd a document on nairaland . . . from a website like Scribd . . .

I can't embedd it to the site . . .as i can't seem to figure out how to do that . . . hence please use the link below instead . . .

http://www.ijawdictionary.com/menu/TheIjoGenesis.pdf

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Tsiya:
Well every society has, but the way you people are arguing using that folklore as a proof doesn't make sense. Historias that always try to piece history of a community try to differenciate between the reality and myths.

You guys you all look alike.

When I went to the NYSC at the CAMP, Nigerians have to introduce themselves and where they come from, especially those that do not have tribal name as first name.
coper 1"Where are you from" , Coper 2 "Iam from Auchi" Coper 1 "that is Edo now, I thought you are from Cross Rivers" Coper 2 "God Forbid, do I look like them" Coper 3 "Look at this guy, na ma state you de call God Forbid"

When I looked at them, they all look alike and they cannot tell each by just looking at their faces. Common Stop wasting your times. You all look alike. Next time look at the next Nigerian neighbour you have, you cannot say from which state he or she is, you have to ask, unless she have a tribal name.

Which is why you are eager to emphasis that Hausa - Fulani did not steal ilorin . . . and also eager to emphasis that Sokoto Caliphate was the so called Superpower . . .  . . .

Who asked you if Sokoto caliphate is a super power . . . you are just exposing yourself . . .

in progress

Tsiya:
It is not stealing. It was just what the political system then allowed. You cannot use your common sense to judge or justify the actions of the past. Everything done in the past is base on the common interest of the people at that time. The Sokoto Empire was the rising Superpower in the region then, and it was politically wise for them to align themselves with the dominating superpower of the region. Just like the way many countries are aligning themseves with America. Hence the Fulani did not steal or decieve anybody then.

- It is stealing . . . cus Afonja did not give it to Hausa Fulani . . . instead it was stolen from him via deceit . . .

- Stealing is stealing whether it happened in 10 AD or it happened in 2000 BC or 2010 AD . . . stealing has not changed in definition.

- Can you please stop trying to white wash history . . .its starting to sound irritating . . .

The Sokoto Empire was the rising Superpower in the region then

- Hence should it be safe for me to assume that you are an Hausa-Fulani . . . seeing that you are doing your best to explain away the fact that Ilorin was stolen from Afonja . . . Ilorin was not won in a war against Yorubas . . . Ilorin was stolen from the Afonjas as an act of betray . . . considering that the Afonjas had already cut themselve off from other Yorubas.

- That you are trying to prop up Sokoto Caliphate just goes to show that you are probably an Hausa-Fulani yourself.

Edit (correction of error in the statement) :

- Do you even know that Fulanis also took over Hausa land . . .hence Emirs are not really Kings  . . . instead Emirs are mere religious leaders . . . used to lord it over the Hausas . . .

- Hausas were the ones who owned the land . . . . .before the maruading islamic armies of Usman dan Fodio came about . . .

- Do you know that Hausa kings were overthrown by the Fulani . . .

[quote author=tpia. link=topic=380562.msg5311087#msg5311087 date=1263432323]Adumu is another name for Oduduwa in an Ijaw dialect

ie they have a prince named Adumu who they identify as being Oduduwa.

Point is, this is meant to show some linkage with ancient Ife[/quote]hmm i don't really buy that . . . cus it does not really tally with the statement presented in the same line of information.

- If you are correct then it means you are saying Adumu is an ORU prince at the same time as he was the King Adumu-ala (Oduduwa).

- The information made a distinction between the King Adumu-ala . . . and the Oru princes . . . hence the information used the King as a separate reference point in time to show for the description of the Oru princes.

- Hence by my own deduction . . . Oru princes Adumu is not the same as Oduduwa . . . otherwise it would not make sense to use his reign as king as a reference time and then also refer to him as an Oru prince.

Tsiya:
Nothing was stolen here. Everything that happen is a process of evolution of the Nigerian Society. The human society evolve from the past and that is how it shall continue.You can never undo the past. It is just like Red Indians will ask the whites to leave the North America and move back to Europe. You just have to accept the fact that you cannot undo 200 years of history just to satisfy the fantasy of the Yoruba people. Look at the way the Northern Nigeria is set up.

You guys are all funny. The ealier you forget about these things the better. Because you guys all look the same, and I have no doubts you guys all come from the same ancestor whether he is Bini or Oduduwa. All these things about Oduduwa, do they even make sense to you? Why are you guys sticking to these myths and folklores

Nothing was stolen here. Everything that happen is a process of evolution of the Nigerian Society.

Hopefully it would be the same evolution that would be used to take back what has been stolen . . .

The Fulani, who are the minority found themselves in the position of power and you never hear any society complaining that the Fulani should move back to Mali or Senegal.

Found themselves in power by stealing it through deceit .  .  . yea right  . . .

You can never undo the past.

- Hmm . . . an arrogant statement if there ever was one . . .

- Would it be safe for me to assume that you are benefitting from the past that you claim cannot be undone . . .

- Watch and see how the lies of the past is undone by the truth.

Tsiya:
These people and their trivial tribal jargons. Why are you people wasting your valuable time on these things that do not really matter. Everyone migrated from somewhere, only somebody come first. The whole Nigeria is less than 1 million square kilometer and the southern part of Nigeria is less than 300,000 square kilometer, and you are all trying to fight on this small piece of land. You guys, you all look like alike.  What is the difference between Ibori, Oshiomole and Tinibu. You guys you all look alike something wasting your time trying to find difference where there is non.

- Okay . . . .thank you for the advice . . .

- Knowing the truth about history helps to know why certain decisions are being made in the present . . .

- For example . . . kindly tell the Hausa Fulanis to relinquish Ilorin that was stolen via deceit from the Afonjas who invited them and who the Hausa-Fulanis stole Ilorin from . . .unless off course you support the Nigerian concept of lets sweep it under the carpet.

It was during the time of King ADUMU-ALA (alias ODUDUWA), that ORU Princes who derived ultimately from Nubia (ancient Sudan) established city states in the Southern Nigeria region. Their names have come down to us as the ancestors ADUMU, ASARA, UJO, IGODO, NANA, ALA-FUN. These city states gave birth to different ethnic nationalities through the process of fusion and ethnic intermarriage. This is reflected in the ancestral traditions of the Ijos.

- There was Oduduwa.
- There was Oru princes.
- It does not say Oru princes came from Oduduwa.
- It also does not say that Oru princes did not come from Oduduwa.

- It does not say where Oduduwa came from.
- It only mentions where Oru princes came from.

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The names of the Oru princes are given as:

- ADUMU
- ASARA
- UJO
- IGODO
- NANA
- ALA-FUN

[quote author=tpia. link=topic=380562.msg5311011#msg5311011 date=1263431225]no, its not, actually.

But Ijaws claim they're the original owners of Benin and that the Binis met them there then pushed them further south.[/quote]

wow this is something new . . .

can u please provide additional information as concerns this
. . .

Katsumoto:
Gbaran is to the east of Benin which means it is not in Ondo State.

- Yes I notice and I know from the maps that it is certainly not in Ondo state . . . I am just trying to extra careful . . . so that it would be agreed that Gbaran is not in Ondo . . .

- Then it means we can establish from the evidence provided by Beaf as regards the Arogbo Ijaw clan of Ondo state, that they actually migrated to Ondo state from the core Niger Delta area known as Gbaran. . .

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The next questions then become:

1. When did they migrate . . .
2. Did they jus settle in Ondo without recourse to the indigenes or was there a mutual agreement for them to settle in Ondo . . .
3. During the course of their settlement . . . was the land given to them forever or was it a temporary arrangement . . .

4. If we accuse the Arogbo of migration . . .how come we are not also accusing the [b]Itsekiri [/b]of migration . . .

@katsumoto

- Going by the maps alone . . .it is possible to create an argument for your statment . . . however at the end of the day . . . it is still an argument . . .

- Do you have anything more concrete . . . like whether Ondo people knew when Ijaws started migrating to Ondo or was the migration done without the knowledge of the Ondo people . . .

- Cus if migration is the only statement being used . . .we can also argue that Itsekiris migrated to their present location . . . and hence one can argue that if itsekiris are not also indigenous to their present location.

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final one

additional

Beaf:
^
If you read from the beginning, I provided a link with some info.

- I saw it

- It is wikipedia . . . I don' t reckon with wikipedia. . .I inheretly distrust anything on wikipedia cus i know even me can add and create history on wikipedia. Hence i always advise people not to use wikipedia.

- Even the link (which i don't reckon with) made a statement that Ijaws migrated from somewhere else to the part of Ondo . . .

- According to the link (which i don't reckon with) present location is in Ondo . . . former location is in Gbaran

- According to the maps . . . Gbaran is located in an Area which to my own untrained eye looks like the main non-yoruba Nigeria Delta . . . that does not include Ondo state.

- Since I am not good at reading longitudinal and latitudinal coordinates, can someone please help me inteprete whether those Gbaran coordinates fall within Ondo State or not . . .


Check the image yourself . . .

Beaf:
@Katsumato
Ijaw people are not guests. The very first people in Southern Nigeria were the Ijaws, others are their guests. Everybody migrated from somewhere else, but the Ijaws have been around like forever. They even have indegenous settlements in Lagos too.

Katsumoto:
If you go all over the world, you are bound to see old portugese relics. You can even see them in Warri and other parts of the ND. Thats because the portugese were early travellers but it does not mean the portugese can claim any other country as theirs. The Ijaws were travellers; end of story.

@katsumoto

Do you now see why i said it helps to provide a third party source of informatino . .  .cus as far as protocol of a discussion is concerned. . . beaf cannot be faulted and neither can what he is saying be confirmed.

Hence until u provide a third party source of information, for everyone to very . . . it would all just be back and forth banter . . .that can go on for ever  . . .


For example . . .

- Reports indicate . . . that Itsekiri are actually a group of Yoruba people whose language and culture has become a very different from the general yoruba people . . .

- This statement above was backed up by the image  below . . .

- Hence other people can then convince themselves based on that there might be a very high element of truth in the statmeent that Itsekiri are actually Yorubas by blood . . .

Hence i would advise you at least provide something similar so that we can be sure about what you are saying about the Ijaws . . .

Katsumoto:
Actually, Uthman Dan Fodio and the Jihadists sacked Ilorin, which was an out post town of the Oyo Empire, around the 18th century. It was their, the Jihadists, to islamatise the South-West but they only succeeded in sacking Ilorin before the Oyo Empire, which was an ailing empire at that time, fought back.

Edit:

- Yes I know about the Jihadist thingy . . .

- However what i am saying is that Yorubas own Ilorin and still do (even though Fulanis are ruling)

- The point I am making is that: Afonja was the one that initially invited the Fulanis to Ilorin so that they could help fight the Alafin . . . (whom Afonja had fallen out with).

- According to historical records, the Fulanis then turned around and took over Ilorin from Afonja . . .and hence how fulani rule started in the Yoruba land known as Ilorin. .

[quote author=tpia. link=topic=380562.msg5310509#msg5310509 date=1263426237]dont know about that.

Some parts of the midwest speak an ancient Yoruba dialect which isnt found anywhere else though.[/quote]Edit:

@tpia

So you also heard about that ancient Yoruba . . . thingy . . .


It seems Yoruba areas and people might actually be larger than people imagined cus . . . I even remember speaking to a Ghanaian here in the UK and to my suprise the Ghanian was saying with confidence that they were a group of Indigenous people in Ghana who are actually Yorubas . . . even though I don't think they were using the name Yorubas to refer to themselves.

Katsumoto:
Uthman Dan Fodio had already united the North with the Jihad. Northern Emirs were already subservient to the Sultan of Sokoto before the British came. Ahmadu Bello was Dan Fodio's grandson. The North had/has a feudal system similar to what the Europeans had in the middle ages. Would such unity have been possible in the South where everyman has a voice?

No wonder the British found it easier to hand over to the Northerners since it would be easier to exploit Nigeria as they Northerners already had an exploitative and control system similar to what existed in europe centuries earlier . . .

This raises the question as to why Southerners then agreed to continue in the abberation known as Nigeria . . .immediately the British left . . . cus reports shows that the British knew the Southern Nigeria was more developed than Northen Nigeria in economic terms . . . yet they were hell bent on handing over power to the North . . . (Divide and rule concept)

Katsumoto:
I don't need to provide any academic link; let the Ijaws claim they were part of Ondo state before Independence. To answer your question, yes, they are guests. That is the problem with Migration sometimes; guests forget they are guests. Just like the Asian muslims clamouring for Sharia law in the UK.

- Unfortunately . . . you are making a very serious claim and allegation against the Ijaws . . . hence the protocol of discussion requires you to at least provide a third party source of referenc with which we can use to verify your information.

- Yes i understand the perspective of that of Asian muslims in the UK that is why i sometimes simply do not understand the mindset of muslims . . . in general . . . cus from history, what happened in Britain also happend in Ilorin in that Fulani can to ilorin as invitees . . .yet here you have today they seem to be ruling Ilorin almost as indigenes .

That is why it is weird when i see a muslim openly claiming they want to islamise Britain considering that they are guests in britain and considering that Britons have every right to kick them out of the country for even dearing to try to take over a country that never belonged to them in the first place.

@katsumoto

I don't know if it is true . . .but I think i have heard somewhere before that the language spoken around the Areas of Ondo and Itsekiri is closer to the ancient Yoruba than the normal Yoruba that every one is now generally speaking . . .

Can u confirm whether this is true or not . . .

Here is the information i found at the link provided by a user on this thread . . .

Katsumoto:
Ijaw have no territory in Ondo state; Ijaw migration to Ondo was post-independence. Ijaw have a presence but not territory.

men i always learn knew things on nairaland . . . sincerely speaking prior to this ur statement, i used to think Ijaws actually had a legitimate claim to land ownership in parts of Ondo state.

1. Do you realise that you have made a very serious allegation . . .

2. Are you trying to say that: Ijaws are to Ondo what Modakeke is to Ile-Ife . . .

3. Do you realise that you are saying that Ijaws are tenants in Ondo state . . .

4. Can you please provide an academic link to support your statement that Ijaws do not really have any land ownership in Ondo state. . .

thanks to Shrink Jesoul . .  . I am back at least for today. . . 

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No one has answered where the phrase 'E x t e r m i n a t e . . . E x t e r m i n a t e . . . E x t e r m i n a t e' is repeatedly used  . . .


Hint:

It has to do with science fiction . . .

Moonstone:
In my opinion there is nothing metaphorical about Songs of Solomon. I don't think it has to do with God and mankind.
I have never, in all my life, seen mammary glands being described like the way it was in that book. It was so poetic and actually passionate. If it is metaphorical what do those 'fawns' represent?

"2Your navel is a rounded goblet
       that never lacks blended wine.
       Your waist is a mound of wheat
       encircled by lilies.

3 Your bosoms are like two fawns,
       twins of a gazelle."

"7 Your stature is like that of the palm,
       and your bosoms like clusters of fruit.

8 I said, "I will climb the palm tree;
       I will take hold of its fruit." 
       May your bosoms be like the clusters of the vine,
       the fragrance of your breath like apples,

9 and your mouth like the best wine"

This is only from Chapter 7 - NIV.
Please can someone find the metaphor in these verses?

This is exactly why this book is ignored in most sermons. No one has really ever preached on this book in detail. Only when it comes to weddings.

- I am not saying it is non-sexual . . .

Check my previous post . . . quoted below.

No2Atheism:
One thing i can conclude . . . that:
.
.
.

- On the surface, does the Song of Solomon look like a highly playful scenario between a man and a woman . . . YES

- Is it also possible that there are deeper non-sexual spiritual connotations to the Songs of Solomon . . . YES

- Sex is not unholy . . .

- It inappropriate acts of sex that is unholy . . . the bible has made it clear when sex is considered holy . . .

- What I am saying is that our mind is the one that makes Songs of Solomon unholy . . .

- Sex was created for both pleasure and procreation . . .however it is the exposure to pornography and acts of fornication, adultery, homosexualism and the likes that end up tarnishing the image of sex in the minds of many.

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- Abraham and Sarah have been reported in the bible to play with each other . . . (the bible did not say what they were doing was wrong). Does that now mean Abraham and Sarah are doing something unholy . . .off course not . . .



- the issue here is that: our mind is filled with filthy imaginations


- Hence in consequence . . . most believers prefer to stay away from the Songs of Solomon cus they simply do not trust their own mind . . . I for one do not trust my own mind . . . hence personally I also prefer not to indulge myself in the Songs of Solomon. . . cus I know I have a wandering and highly sensitive mind (which has ended up causing me a lot of pain, trauma and anguish), hence one of the only ways to control my wandering and sensitive mind is to watch wat i expose it to. Hence since someone like me knows that Songs of Solomon contains highly playful instances between a man and a woman, then the most logical action to take is to avoid.

However it is to be noted that cus I am avoiding it does not mean it is unholy . . . far from it . . . what is happening is that my mind cannot handle what is being said there . . . cus my own mind turns what is holy into something corruptible.



- Also being married goes a long way to help control a wandering mind . . . hence in as much as the Songs of Solomon might look like a big deal to single individuals . . . I doubt its really a big deal to married individuals.


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Hence I still stand by the following statements . . .


My Answer to the following Questions are given below:
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Is it truth the Songs of Solomon is unholy . . . NO

So whats the problem . . . Our mind

What do i mean . . . Our mind is messed up and filled with filthy imaginations that we tend to see normal things sanctioned by The Creator as filthy occurences.

Why . . . Part of the nature of Sin that we had as a result of the fall in the Garden of Eden.

spikedcylinder:
Some have been known to jerk off to its verses.
Just sayin'.

- hmm @spikedcylinder lets keep the discussion to appropriate use of words . . .

- we are on the religious thread . . .

Hence at the end of the day . . .


My Answer to the following Questions are given below:
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Is it truth the Songs of Solomon is unholy . . . NO

So whats the problem . . . Our mind

What do i mean . . . Our mind is messed up and filled with filthy imaginations that we tend to see normal things sanctioned by The Creator as filthy occurences.

Why . . . Part of the nature of Sin that we had as a result of the fall in the Garden of Eden.

@kosovo

- Why did you move a political discussion about MTN Headquarters all the way to the phone section  . . .

- What does a political discussion have to do with the phone section . . .

- Does that mean we need to move a political discussion involving KFC or MacDonalds to the food section as well . . .

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Can you please provide an answer to the above questions . . .

One thing i can conclude . . . that:

- Married and Matured Pastors need to tackle that topic and book called the Songs of Solomon . . . and hence preach it on the pulpit . . .

- Cus if Married and Matured Pastors are unable to preach it then you can understand why spiritual wimps like me might get sceptical about tackling the topic itself . . . without always looking over the shoulder of our own conscience.

- Cus at the end of the day . . . all books of the bible have a purpose to them . . . hence how are we going to know the purpose and usefulness of the Songs of Solomon when everyone is too scared to even tackle it in public.


- On the surface, does the Song of Solomon look like a highly playful scenario between a man and a woman . . . YES

- Is it also possible that there are deeper non-sexual spiritual connotations to the Songs of Solomon . . . YES

- Hence the reality is that unless someone takes the pains to tackle it and try to explain it to others in public . . . people like me are always going to be scared of tackling it ourselves without having to second guess ourselves and questioning our motives and looking at our conscience in the process of tackling the issue.

JeSoul:
. . . yeah that's what I was going for lol but it appears more people than I anticipated did not get it. Thanks!
If this is the last and only reply on this thread, it has already been more than worth it for the sake of Netotse here . Joe thanks again for throwing light on subject, people (myself included) are seeing! lol

I am going to have to investigate this metaphorical angle that people are claiming . . . or is this just another false mechanism that we are using to protect ourselves from admitting that we are also seeing it as highly playful romantic episode between a man and woman . . .

JeSoul:
I know oh my sister, I unwittingly injected levity into the thread with that title. I have learned my lesson lol.

Is thou trying to confess . . .  

JeSoul:
hehe I expected nuthin less from the prolific Maven  . Highly e-rotic is exactly the right word description to use, which is why I don't think it appropriate for younger audiences. You're right on God designed us that way . . . why would He include such a book along with the rest?

Sisters sisters . . . some of us are still growing . . . abeg . . . stop soiling our already dirty mind   . . . jeez wat am i even doing on this thread sef . . .  

Maybe its cos he doesn't want us to shy away from it but face it head on and put it in its proper place as you correctly noted.

Men . . . some of us are not so sure we want to face it head on  . . .   . . . too much scars to take care of . . .

JeSoul:
I see what you mean . . . but so much of scripture have parallels and can be applied in multiple views. So I dunno if calling it mere coincidence is accurate, perhaps it was a divine set-up? 
Lol . . . and therein lies the problem, many christians do not touch that book (and understandably so I guess), it scares them away.

- hmm I am one of those christians . . . hmmm   am i even qualified to call myself a christians sef . . .

- I have reasons to be scared cus my imagination is horrible . . . hence it only takes a mustard seed of such readings to create a fireball of unwanted thinking . . .


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Lets look at things from this angle . . .

In the Garden of Eden before the fall . . . Adam and Eve were naked but not ashamed (meaning that there was most probably an effective way to control unwanted imaginations and unwanted highly playful thoughts).

This means that if there was no sin  . . . we would have all still been naked as we speak . . .

Which means that this issue of being uncomfortable with Songs of Solomon would not occur . . .

Which means the problem of being uncomfortable with Songs of Solomon comes from the fact that most of our minds  . . . (mine included) . . .have become corrupted with filthy imaginations . . . hence one of the ways of preventing those imaginations from either growing or coming to pass is by making sure we restrict ourselves to things that blunt out those imaginations . . .

Hence i guess most christians avoid the book cus most christians know they are still susceptible to such imaginations . . . for example I am currently second guessing myself and question my own motives whether I should even make posts to this topic or whether I should not make posts to this topic or whether I should post the kind of words and statements i am posting and have posted earlier . . . cus for some reason: I simply do not trust myself in discussions like this.

How am I sure that its not the dirty motive of my heart speaking through my posts . . . if i can't trust myself concerning certain things why should trust myself concerning posting in this topic.


So you know see that . . . I think its more of a fail-safe mechanism that christians adopt when it comes to highly playful situations between a man and a woman as presented by  
Songs of Solomon.