₦airaland Forum

Gabrielshow24:
Contrary to evidence, you are the one looking for historical timemark here is a verse that has a well known historical timemark to it.

Disprove it🤧!!!

The roundabout games, I know this is what a defeated debater resorts to when he no longer has answers to defend his position.

My position is crystal clear, the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24 is yet to happen, but since you insist otherwise, kindly prove your position with historical evidence.


Patiently waiting

Gabrielshow24:
Who's talking about method?
Am talking about Jesus' statements that dismantle your initial premise.

That's what I am here to show.
If you can dismiss the SUPREME AUTHORITY OF JESUS then I will be obliged to heed whatever you say but if you can't then hush it and begin to see reasons why your conclusion was wrong in the first place!!!

Great, so when did Jesus see Satan fall like lightening from heaven in Luke 10 v 18 hmmm?

Somehow Satan regained access to heaven after he was cast out before the creation of heaven and earth abi? 🥱

Gabrielshow24:
Am not doing that!
You are going to do the research you failed to do before spewing a false absolute statement!

If you had done your homework; you would have known better than to commit this doctrinal error!

What you’re really telling us is that you’ve been trapped and you have no answers as to who fulfilled the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24.

Humour me some more

Gabrielshow24:
🤧Go and dispute with Jesus! 😂

The verses due to your narrow-mindedness and hasty generalization which you didn't take cognizance to, before spewing out a false conclusion are the ones dismantling your premise!

So Jesus gave you the laughable method you’re using to discuss here?

Interesting

gohf:
funny but this here is the truth

What you wrote
"Do a bit of study and tell me the difference between

1) Heavenly realms in Ephesians 6 v 12 (epouraniois in greek) and;
2) Their place in heaven in Revelation 12 v 8 (topos ouranō in greek)"

And what I responded
You that has studied why don't you say the answer

But you claim you response that "If you read Revelation 12 v 11-12 carefully, I hope you know that was referring to the dead in Christ.
Those still alive in Christ are to put on the armour of God and keep on fighting - Ephesians 6 v 12." Which is supposed to answer the difference between heavenly places and heaven is associated with my quote of Revelation 12:10.. claiming it responds to this

Is a lie for there is no connection only confusion.

So you’re telling us Revelation 12 v 10 is isolated from Revelation 12 v 11-12? 🤷

You’re also telling us Satan has been hurled down to earth in Revelation 12 v 10?

Gabrielshow24:
You have Google, query!

Use that same google and paste the answers here. You claim it's been fulfilled, paste the answers here.
Who fulfilled the abomination that causes desolation in Matthew 24?

Patiently waiting

Gabrielshow24:
I know what the scripture says regards that but I have tried to use scripture but it didn't work.

I have inferred he has formed a dogmatic basis!
Nothing you say will move or change his doctrinal stance that's why I do what I do!

I act as a mirror and reflect his biblical stance!
At some point he will continue repeating his stance even some times completely ignoring any scriptural objections!

When it becomes rampant in your conversations you will understand better.

I don't say my method is right but in this case it's sufficient!

Your method is neither right nor sufficient. It's laughable at best

gohf:
If there are no tribulations why are you even wrestling?

If there was no victory then why should should we even stand firm?

the war is over but the battle remains, for the enemy is still looking to destroy

You never believed in the victory that was won by Christ, so why do you see for answers?

Are you telling us the tribulations believers are facing right now is the great tribulation in Revelation 12 v 17 and Revelation 13?

Gabrielshow24:
You tell me oh SUPREME AUTHORITY of the scripture!

What about these verses! Matthew24:15-22

And at what point in history was this fulfilled?

gohf:
and how does this your response explain the difference between heavenly places and heaven?

I am replying your initial position here;

WAS CAST OUT and the result was
Rev.12.10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

Gabrielshow24:
Matthew 24

Now put it in historical context! 🤧

And are you telling us Matthew 24 is already fulfilled?

gohf:
there is heaven of the second day and heavens of Genesis 1:1

There is heaven God's throne above the heavens, the heaven of heavens and there is heavenly places, spiritual realms, where souls dwell.

I am not in the business of numbering them nor mapping them, 3rd heaven or the like. But it is clearly written that they have been trampled, you do not trample upon what hasn't been defeated.

If you cannot accept what the truth that is written you will not accept the truth been revealed.

And how does this invalidate Satan and his Angels still have their place in heaven?
The war in heaven is yet to happen, spiritual forces of evil still have their place in the heavenly realms.

Very simple and straightforward

Gabrielshow24:
I have stated above how this is fallacious!!
I won't repeat myself.

You can't say because of absence of historical timemarks that it means it's still in the future!

Hope you do know that the abomination spoken of by Daniel also termed Great tribulation has an historical timemark of it being the Islamic conquest of Jerusalem.

But still not because that very chapter alludes to the fact that it's futuristic because we don't see the son of man clothed in Glory descending from heaven!

Hence once again "Great tribulation" is semi-vague.

So the Muslims had a covenant with many for one seven in Daniel 9 v 26-27?
So the Muslims are the king of the North spoken of in Daniel 11? Oh please...

2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4 speaks of the man of lawlessness declaring himself as god in the temple. Who fulfilled this in history? Yes...nobody

So in the absence of historical evidence, you still somehow conclude the dragon has chased the woman and she has received refuge in the wilderness for 1,260 days? I salute this leap of logic

gohf:
You that has studied why don't you say the answer

Except you do not know but also refuse to accept what is revealed?

If you read Revelation 12 v 11-12 carefully, I hope you know that was referring to the dead in Christ.
Those still alive in Christ are to put on the armour of God and keep on fighting - Ephesians 6 v 12.

gohf:
You that has studied why don't you say the answer

Except you do not know but also refuse to accept what is revealed?

Refuse to accept what exactly?

gohf:
Some believe it is Israel, historically Israel or better yet the Jews have been the most persecuted people on earth since the ascension of Jews, even up to what hilter is said to have done to them

You then ask has he pursued them to the wilderness?

Well for the remaining of the verses I choose not to respond 😁

How can the great tribulations be a past event and Jesus hasn't come, do you understand the words of Jesus recorded in the gospels

Matt.24.29 - "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt.24.30 - Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Or do you think the tribulations ended in Revelation 7 at the sixth seal?

The fact you read my words and still asked your last question means you do not deserve to know if you did not see the answer already from what was written. 😊

So...if the great tribulation is yet to happen and Ephesians 6 v 12 is still valid, how have you concluded the war in heaven has happened and Satan and his angels have lost their place in heaven?

Gabrielshow24:
🤦My God, you keep going in circles.
I wanted to have a sensible conversation with a fellow brother in Christ but when I saw this your inerrant behavior, I knew you were impervious to change.

I am just here to show you contradictions!
I am not the absolute source of authority on scriptures neither are you.

But you making an absolute statement like that and not persuaded by reasoning hence my logical stance!

If you keep reiterating I will keep reiterating Jesus' word because in the first place you failed to take context into play, I will continally mirror your logic until you see your flaws.

Once again "Jesus saw" not I will see!

Oh..so Satan fell from heaven like lightening even before Jesus was born or what?
Or Jesus saw satan fall like lightening from heaven during his (Jesus) lifetime on earth

gohf can you see what I'm dealing with here?

gohf:
For the sake of others reading though this question is not directed to me

Jesus is Luke 10:18 saw a prophecy of what is to happen after his death and resurrection that gives us the power to continually cast out demons


This is the NKJV translation of what Luke wrote
Luke.10.17 - Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."
Luke.10.18 - And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Luke.10.19 - Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Luke.10.20 - Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven."

Thank you.

gohf and gabrielshow24

Do a bit of study and tell me the difference between

1) Heavenly realms in Ephesians 6 v 12 (epouraniois in greek) and;
2) Their place in heaven in Revelation 12 v 8 (topos ouranō in greek)

Gabrielshow24, also tell me clearly if the dragon has been hurled to earth, and the woman has already been protected in the wilderness for 1,260 days. No hiding behind doctrinal views, come out clearly and tell me if this has happened or not.

Gabrielshow24:
Contrary to what you posit the fatal blow is to you!

Because it's an obvious contradiction to your initial sentiments!

Like I have been saying:
You have a tendency to misrepresent my words!

I allude from my first post that the time is not expressly stated but evidence seems to suggest it was before man!

And that is the general consensus of theologians!

Also Jesus reiterated so many things from the past!
It doesn't negate the first premise of before man.
Emphasis on "saw" not I will see! 🤧

So according to you, Satan and his Angels were cast out of heaven before the creation of earth and man.
How did Satan get back to heaven which Jesus saw him fall from heaven like lightening in Luke 10 v 18 hmmm?

Heaven is safe yet Angels are carrying swords. Quite interesting

gohf:
For the sake of those who have read so far, hopefully you read this

Revelation 12 comes after Revelation 11, after the seventh trumpet
Rev.11.15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" (NKJV)

But the first part of Revelation 12 is not an occurrence but a vision of the past, a sign, infact after that sign had ended
Rev.12.9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (NKJV)

WAS CAST OUT and the result was
Rev.12.10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

I don't know when you all think salvation and God's kingdom came, or when the power of Christ came upon the church but it is not a futuristic statement because Jesus himself said if I cast out demons then the kingdom of God has come. Matt.12.28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Rev.12.11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. (NKJV)

They will overcome? Is that what is written? NO

They OVERCAME...

Love new living translation of Rev.12.1 Then I witnessed in heaven an event of great significance. I saw a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon beneath her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head. (NLT)

HE WAS CAST OUT
the next verse after the vision ended,
Rev.12.13 - Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.
Rev.12.17 - And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


That's why the question is, who will...
Rom.8.33 - Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
Rom.8.34 - Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

There is no one accusing God's people before God anymore. What happened to Job, happened to the Joshua the priest and others like prince of Persia etc, happened before Jesus dead and rose

Col.2.15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. (NIV)

Jesus came, he died and overcame, there are other verses in NT

So is satan in heaven now? NO, can he gain access there? NO

So since he can't accuse us, what does he do
He fights God's people

And he fights because
Eph.1.3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, (NKJV)

Eph.6.12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. (ALL)

Now what are heavenly places? Or heavenly realms?

This realm is a realm of spiritual warfare and without the authority given to Jesus we cannot prevail, without the word of testimony given to us we cannot overcome nor resist

Eph.1.19 - and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power
Eph.1.20 - which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph.1.21 - far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
Eph.1.22 - And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church,


We are to replace the forces and powers of darkness be thrown out,

Eph.2.4 - But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph.2.5 - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph.2.6 - and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph.2.7 - that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

By declaring God's word

Eph.3.10 - to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places,

So is satan still ruling in the heavenly realms? NO, he is still pretending to be god of the earth, Yes, is he fighting against God's people, Yes

Revelation 13 shows what he does at the last trumpet sounded...


In the old testament he had been sneaking, like
2Cor.11.14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. (NKJV) disguises himself but God can see through his deception and thank God he was rebuked in the case of Joshua the priest.

Do you think he gave us his ambition because he was cast out of heaven

Isaiah's words are a prophecy
Isa.14.12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! (NKJV)
This happened when Jesus won the battle
That's why verse 15
Isa.14.15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit. (NKJV)

This is yet to happen, and like Revelation says it happens just before the millennium reign


Ezekiel prophecies it as well
Ezek.28.8 - They shall throw you down into the Pit, And you shall die the death of the slain In the midst of the seas.
Ezek.28.9 - "Will you still say before him who slays you, "I am a god'? But you shall be a man, and not a god, In the hand of him who slays you.

It has not yet happened. Yes he was cast out from God's presence as Moses wrote in Genesis and roamed the earth but he sneaked into the assembly of God's children when they present themselves before the LORD.



I hope you all understand. God bless

Has Revelation 12 v 13 happened?
Has the dragon pursued the woman to the wilderness?
Has the great tribulation happened?
Has the war in heaven happened?

Gabrielshow24:
Are you looking to me for an explanation?
Can't you read from context or perhaps the literal chronological sequence of the verse?

Anyway it's Jesus words😊

Ehya... so according to your position, Satan was cast out of heaven before earth and man were created.
Then several centuries after in Luke 10 v 18, Jesus said he saw Satan fall like lightening from heaven (you never even considered if this was metaphorical by the way).
Then Paul wrote in Ephesians 6 v 12 that there are still spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

But oh no... according to you, the war in heaven has already happened and Satan and his Angels are cast out of heaven to earth.

A round of applause for you.

Gabrielshow24:
Let me ask you this question
The 1260days you mentioned are they literal or metaphorical?

I want to see your standpoint!
Also I want you to consider very well the logical implications of your reply!!!🤧

A literal future event.

Now what is your position on the 1,260 days. And don't signpost me to different doctrinal views.

Gabrielshow24:
Really, I could say the same of specific verses in Revelation.

The bible has always used Babylon as a metaphor for sin/oppression and has alluded to satan being the "ruler" of this country.

So either you take the literal interpretation and incline yourself to the king of that time or you take the metaphorical route that implies Satan!

Which buttresses my point that the bible is subject to literal and metaphorical meanings!

And you don't just pull out one verse and just allude to its metaphorical meaning and posit it as an absolute statement!

Also I was expecting you to throw out Jesus' statements out the window! 🤔

Or perhaps him alluding to Satan being a murderer from the very beginning🤧.

Irrespective both don't help your cause, next time you won't hasty generalize.

Now the burden of proof is on you to start throwing out counter verses🤧.

I have come to a conclusion a long time ago that you have formed a dogmatic epistemic closure!

And it's futile exchanging words hence I will display your logical inconsistencies!!!

You are just blowing empty words. Explain to us how Satan fell from heaven like lightening in Luke 10 v 18 if he was cast out of this same heaven prior to the creation of earth and man.

Gabrielshow24:
I don't need to answer because both scripture negates your premise and that is enough for me!

I just wanted to show the world the flaw and hasty generalization you have exhibited in handling scripture!!!

Nah...you don't have an answer to this. It already exposes the flaws in your argument.
You can't tell us when exactly Satan and his Angels were cast out of heaven.
If you say it's before the creation of earth and man, was Jesus then referring to a different Satan that fell like lightening from heaven centuries after in Luke 10 v 18?

Now you are faced with having to explain yourself on how Satan got back to heaven prior to Luke 10 v 18 if indeed he was cast out of heaven before the creation of earth and man.

Fatal blow... too bad

Gabrielshow24:
Really, I could say the same of specific verses in Revelation.

The bible has always used Babylon as a metaphor for sin/oppression and has alluded to satan being the "ruler" of this country.

So either you take the literal interpretation and incline yourself to the king of that time or you take the metaphorical route that implies Satan!

Which buttresses my point that the bible is subject to literal and metaphorical meanings?

And you don't just pull out one verse and just allude to its metaphorical meaning and posit it as an absolute statement!

So where did Isaiah shift his attention from his taunt to the king of babylon and spoke of Satan in Isaiah 14?

Are you also telling us Satan is a man as per Isaiah 14 v 16-17?
Are you also telling us Satan has a tomb as per Isaiah 14 v 19? As per Satan has a corpse?!

Gabrielshow24:
🤦This doesn't make any sense.
Your entire statement hinges on the fact that "it was because of Israel" Lucifer was cast out!

Why then was he cast out because of Israel?

Secondly the great tribulation like I said earlier is semi-vague, different doctrinal sects can argue that it was the "persecution of the Church", some say persecution or conquest of Jerusalem and finally others argue it's yet to come!

So it's subject to different interpretations either symbolic or literal!!!

You haven't said anything and you are hiding behind the position of different doctrinal sects with conflicting views.

Are you telling us the war in heaven happened before the creation of earth and man?

If yes, how is it possible without any shred of evidence the dragon pursued the woman into the wilderness for 1,260 days or the occurrence of the great tribulation?

What is your position on the events of Revelation 12? Tell us in a clearly without hiding under the interpretation of others. You don't seem to be certain in your position, but at the same time you are somehow sure Satan and his Angels have been kicked out of heaven!

gohf:
I have been reading your posts and I am not saying Gabrielshow24 is right, but what is your point

Is it that satan is in heaven right now?

By the way heavenly realms there doesn't mean heaven as in where God's throne is, it references spiritual realms.

My position is Satan and his Angels still have their place in heaven - Ephesians 6 v 12
They will lose their place in heaven after the war with Angel Michael and the other Angels - Revelation 12 v 8.
Their expulsion to earth will lead to a series of event which will spark off the time of Jacob's trouble - Revelation 12 v 14
This will then snowball into the great tribulation - Revelation 12 v 17 and Revelation 13.

All these are future events yet to happen.

gohf:
Are you still here or have you left?

I'm here

gohf:
gabrielshow24 this is one of the examples of him having a field day with you

Previously okcornel asked you, when does the sign In Revelation 12:1-9 occur

And you seem to give one answer and then another and then no answer. Is it Israel, humanity or what? Such response is somehow.

He is clearly confused

Gabrielshow24:
As far as the bible is concerned, From the Torah we see only the high priest could enter the holy of holies and from the speech of Lucifer he makes the remark: "he wants to ascend up into heaven"🥱.

If Lucifer was already in heaven then why the need to ascend up above!
Because from Jewish traditions there are seven heavens and God resides in the seventh, the holy of holies!

So as far as that verse is concerned it's doesn't corroborate your assertion!

But suggests that evil forces after being cast out of heaven where God resides.
They roamed in others!

From the bolded, kindly read Isaiah 14 v 12-13 in the context of that chapter and tell us where Isaiah shifted his attention from the King of Babylon to Satan. Please just show us.

Typical example of picking few verses and interpreting it out of the context of the passage. Very very faulty eisegesis.