₦airaland Forum

sinoprojects:
Thanx

Give a price or price range!

I'm interested but I am not going to call you to get a price range. Decide if this is an interested party or not.

segcymoor:
Something tells me somethings is wrong somewhere.,...


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because it's mystery to me seen a talented fellow will be disgrace in this manner!

Nothing is wrong anywhere.

The only talent here is MARKETING FRAUD!!!

Ask mr brabus/ nexthome/n3xt where he got his building education from?

Which university/ polytechnic did he study any of the building disciplines?
Or
Under what builder did he apprentice?

I guarantee you there will be no answer.
He is simply using client’s projects and money to learn building construction
This is a classic fraud/Ponzi building scam:
1. Promise what you cannot deliver or have capacity to deliver.(under-bid other professionals)
2. Get construction contract,
3. Start construction
4. When problems start to show up inevitably, demand more money or do a substandard job
5. Abandon project because it cannot be fulfilled according to terms/money agreed
6. Onto the NEXTHOME/project (pun intended)

Because law enforcement and contract enforcement is difficult, he can always get away.

Is that not the case in all the fraudsters building project?

segcymoor:
Please don't encourage him to do so...,




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May be difficult to handle......

How can someone sharing his experiences with a builder who gives "advice" on this forum be too much to handle?
This thread devolved into the gutter because people kept advocating sweeping the issue under the rug, and deflecting the clear INCOMPETENCE and DISHONESTY of the fraudster builder..

More information is always good. I am not advocating mud-slinging. I just want people to have more information about who they are recieving building "services" and "advice" about.

3strikes:
So Let me just buttress your point...Bosun have really rubbished and stain alot of builders here ..either they know it or not. I know of a Nairaland Lady in diaspora that contacted me about builders in Naija and I told her that my hand no dey o ........Am even afraid to vouch for anyone cos of this bitter experience.

With treasury bills OMO @ 18% for ur bucks...Na that one sure pass now. I no need they chase anyone around with cutlass or e-fighting.

interest paid upfront.....in this recession na to they buy all those already built houses on the market for a steal. The building process wahala too much and them go they jazz you ontop.....Naija i hail o

Nobody is portraying negative attributes of Nigeria abroad. What you see is the sum of the parts. And to be honest we have a lot of work to do when it comes to honesty and competence.

As for the other builders that are on this forum, who keep quiet, they do not realize that he is poisoning the well for their profession, which is the reason I spoke out.
Most of the users of this thread are diasporans who have to remotely monitor construction progress.
This is what he thrives on. A remote/diaspora owner that cannot adequately monitor progress. Showing pictures WITHOUT DELIVERING promised construction results and client satisfaction is not building .IT IS MARKETING.
Imagine the reputation damage anyone would suffer from recommending a fraudster builder?

skimanski:
This is Page 477. and 80% of the people that have posted on this page claim they reside overseas and see Nigeria as a country were we people are messing up the country. The truth is that you people are just portraying thesame attributes that the guys in nigeria and govt portrayed that brought this country down in the first place.

One person talk, the other guy go respond and the other guy go react. Na thesame thing na. PDP dey govt, Bokoharam go fight, and we Nigerians go pursue Jonathan Comot, and APC go enter, Militants go fight and we go say BUHARI must go, what happens to allowing someone just do his own thing peacefully and leave. Thats exactly whats going on here. SOmeone says something, and the next will attack his personality, and the other will respond back, and so on even, when they know that if they attack, things will mess up further, but yet they dont want to be to give in to the other. Must we always look at whats right in front of our eyes when writing a comment, Can't we just look at the big picture and see that we are also doing this to ourselves.

There is a reason why i don't comment much on this thread. It just doesn't seem like an educative thread to me. It seems more like a show off thread, hence the reason for this uncontrollable war.

Evil prospers when good people say nothing.
I admire your work and reputation on this thread. However the refusal of the most reputable people on this thread to call out a dishonest/fraudster builder is why this thread has devolved this way.
Do you know why this thread has devolved into negativity? Because most of the experiences of clients on this thread have been negative from 1 builder-Brabus/N3xt/Bosun/Nexthome
Most of negative comments on this thread stared from dissatisfied Clients of the frauster builder that devolved into a mud-slinging mess.
You are known to be reputable and protect your name and integrity on this forum ferociously .you also know that in the services business delivery and competence are important. BRABUS/N3XT/BOSUN/NEXTHOME THE FRAUD HAS NONE.
You know what the big picture is? HONESTY AND INTEGRITY. If someone cannot trust a builder to deliver as promised, How will progress happen?. PROGRESS CANNOT HAPPEN WITHOUT THE INTEGRITY OF THE PROFESSIONALS INVOLVED. And the fraudster builder that dominates this thread has no integrity!

n3xt:
Really? Why are you telling me this?

Despite the stringent condition I gave myself (builds within 20km radius only), I still have a lot to give thanks to God for.

1. Chateau in Silverpoint will be wearing crown next week (Client: Silent Nairalander)

2. New Ground to be broken at my Labora Fence site (you remember the 2 plots fence). Client: Nairalander

3. Ongoing developments approaching finishing stage. (Client: Super Active Nairalander)

The only reward of the prominent guys who took the bullet is when they see me make them proud Internationally. They'll definitely rise to be part of the success story.

Shockingly, nothing on earth stops a Brabus. Just watch me!

Mr Bosun/Brabus/N3ext/Nexthome/ #Mr Fraudster changing names. Where are your satisfied clients on this Nairaland Forum? Your only satisfied client is YOURSELF. THE HOUSE YOU BUILT FOR YOURSELF.
None of your clients on this forum is satisfied with you. NONE. Accusations and proof of defective building, theft, fraud, collusion to defraud, forgery of government documents, cheating follow you. Yet you feel the need to parade around like a peacock.

He whom the gods will destroy, they first make mad.
You think you are smart because you seem to be getting away.

As for his enablers and supporters on this forum. I beg you, when you are ready to build, engage Brabus, let us see..... The ones who tried it are licking their wounds with sinking and empty pockets

Diaspora people, I know with the current Foreign exchange situation, your money has more legs. Beware of sinking it into the hole of this fraudster.

yincalley:
Mr Bosun why are you like this. Are you saying I am just complaining of the drawing you did three years ago. I rejected it same week I receive it (3 years ago) and since then you have being avoiding my calls and buying time uptill this moment.

Now, did I give you go ahead to draw drawing that wouldnt be approved? If I gave you go ahead so why will I be complaining the drawing was not signed and sealed. The subject matter is that the drawing was not signed and sealed and perhab you did structural and architectural together no mechanical and electrical.

If I may ask you what exactly am I complaining of, that made you to accept to refund the 100K and when did I start complaining or why are you avoiding my calls.

Mr. Bosun my gentle advise to you is to stop deceiving people with your deceitful write-up.

It seems you have not caught up to Brabus/ Bosun the fraudster's way of doing things. This is exactly his modus operandi. Compromise and underdeliver. Literally promising the impossible and then turning back to blame clients when it all goes sour. His failed record is in threads all over the building section .you can start here. https://www.nairaland.com/1588017/nexthome-builders-2014-2015-new/14. And here https://www.nairaland.com/2550211/off-topic-thread-discuss-anything-everything/99#43139079

mavverick:
I share your sentiments, at least a survey plan needs to be in place to ascertain the dimension and shape, otherwise how will you know what you are designing.

I am happy for those that are reading and learning now, at least these mistakes can be avoided, the shylot placed the clients name and account number on the screenshot. Can you imagine what fraudsters will be thinking now, licking thier lips now i guess.

I remember vividly when I asked him about architectural drawings, he said to me he's the only person that can talk to his architect, so you can imagine, I am paying someone and I cannot tell him what I want, I have to go through a 3rd party. That was the rat i smelt and I went to commission my own architect, I wish I had commissioned my own builder at the very start. But still thank God, it could have been worse.

Imagine an auto-mechanic promising to repair a car with our seeing and examining the car. " I can fix it. Just tell me the problem over the phone"

So the resident fraudster is now posting his clients personal information online . Full name ,bank and bank account number. No regard for client privacy.
This is the reason some people have been on this forum constantly on his case. So that new victims do not fall for his frauds.

3strikes:
Oya make we go read wetin dey happen.. ......I just love this thread

Same old nonsense. Fraudster packager overpromising the impossible. Pretending to be an architect. Who gave The fraudster stamp that he is threatening not to apply. Anybody who has spent 1day in architecture or building school knows you don't start designing a building until you have the site plan or layout...even though the Client is overreaching, so you finished designing before you realize the building does not fit the site. Prospective clients and builders BEWARE

jossy26:
the guy is on sabatical from nairaland for now, but am sure hes going to come back, brabus is what i call abija wara bi ekun, he will surely come back to nairaland with a new ID. its in the blood

Very correct. Nairalands favorite fraudster is back quote author=OnetimeOnly post=47431950]

Our resident fraudster dragging with his clients again. https://www.nairaland.com/2690865/nexthome-official-complaint-thread/1#47418708[/quote]

yincalley:
It is quiet unfortunate that people still deal with Bosun (Brabus). He is a confirmed fraudster and chronic criminal.

I transferred agreed sum of 100K to him for Architectural and Structural drawing in 2014. He acknowledged this payment. He did unprofessional, unsigned and unsealed drawing which was rejected immediately.

I complained about this matter on nairaland when he was not picking my calls again. He called me immediately to beg me that we should settle it offline. He begged me not to post on Nairaland again and promised to refund the 100K.

Ctrl click the link to see the trend of our conversion on nairaland (Re: Nexthome Official Complaint Thread). He pretended as if he is real claiming he will pay me the 100K that week. He have being buying time claiming he will pay when he have money.

He suddenly send sms to me offering to pay 60K as final payments in two instalments. I told him to pay the 60K at once. This is over 5months.

Now, he is saying he doesn’t have money and cant even advise when exactly he can pay.

It is quiet unfortunate that such person like Bosun (Brabus) claims to be a profession and keep duping people.

This is sad.

Everyone dealing with Bosun (Brabus) are taking greater risk.

He is a fraudster and criminal. My experience with him is sad.

He can comment on this if I lied against him or if he disagree that he is not a fraudster and criminal.

My phone no – 08035880099, 08027997709.

I guess this is the drama some people miss on this thread that generates pages without new learning. Our resident fraudster dragging with his clients again. https://www.nairaland.com/2690865/nexthome-official-complaint-thread/1#47418708

lastpage:
Thank you Abdulwastecx,

I have nothing more to add the above.
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I dont know how long (One year? Two years? Three years ..or Forever) it takes to label someone a fraud!?

If anyone claims they dont have KNOWLEDGE of what happened between Brabus and some of his Clients, they they need to read this thread all over again.
But then, "KNOWLEDGE" and "WISDOM" are not the same thing!

"WISDOM" ..... is the application of Knowledge.
I have made my own points known, l wont spend the whole 2016 flogging a dead horse!

Each man to his own conviction.



Lastpage!

True! wisdom is applying knowledge. However, not every reader of the building thread is a regular here and has seen a full spectrum of the fraudsters and his antics. Not every one has/can go through hundreds of pages on various threads. So once in a while it is good to remind readers of the reputation of their potential builder/ advise giver. They can make informed decision based on that e.g Qc1

mavverick:
I did hit like on your post.
Many in diaspora are now much wiser, thats why you dont hear of that many cases of relatives squandering construction money of other relatives (compared to 10 years ago). I have come to learn that almost 80% of the clients of most of our builders are in diaspora, in the last year alone I think I have got to know of over 10.

The good builders on here (you know yourself), should be doing more to kick out the bad ones, because sooner than later it will be a case of NL is mainly for fraudsters. A lot of people also underestimate the value of transactions that exchange hands here, simply because the figures are not released for obvious reasons.

In my case alone with brabus in the last year

2 builds directly from me
A friend that i introduced
3strike

Now thats 4 builds with many more that I am unaware of, can anyone guess the value ? Employment opportunities ? Business for local suppliers ? Profit for the builder if they were good ? Potential bigger deals ? Reduce unemployment with our little contribution ?

I concur with you!

I am not surprised at the 80% number. From my small circle, I know there is high demand for diaspora projects. Imagine someone that saved $10k. That was 1.6 million 2 years ago, now that is ~3 million today.great incentive to invest. People are just looking for trustworthy and competent hands to work with.

mavverick:
Sensible writeup.
I think the issue is that, whilst most mind their business they do not want to be seen as troublemakers or have brabus criticise them, since a lot of people like to see pictures from google, as if they cannot search themselves and see such pictures.

On abusing clients, the man or lady who said they would give brabus thier job, I wish them all the best, everyone is entitled to thier opinion, but what is true is that I have not seen or heard any other good builder abusing thier clients full on, disagreements happen especially in building, there is no escaping it. The fact is that can we reconcile, be diplomatic and be considerate at the same time and work towards a settlement and shake hands ? Is it clear that Bosun lacks in these areas.

My architect who is also a nairalander once said to me that he felt really ashamed by the actions of Bosun (he said he embarrassed the profession and put the profession into disrepute). I would not name him, but one day he might be reading this.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"

Professionals on this thread that keep silent do themselves more harm than good. The fraudster's reputation harms the other builders on Nairaland. Just like 3strikes said. A clean shirt in a dirty pile won't stay clean for long .

There are several people who are in the diaspora who want to build. When the most popular building thread allows such fraud and shady practices to go unchallenged, who will invest their money?
There is approximately $20billion of diaspora money that comes in every year....even if 10% is spent on construction thermore than enough to go round.

brag3:
Well Said.

Have you ever wondered why they are passive? Have we even wondered why the whole ecomony seems to follow this suit?

I wish I could answer that but until we decide to call a spade a spade we are not going to make any progress.

Granted everyone deserves a second chance. SECOND being the operative word.

Lets have a recall of the attoricities commited by Brabus and honestly ask ourselves if he has not been given more than a few second chances.

I am not baying for blood but all we ask is for profressionals to concentrate on their area of expertise and let the real qualified/experienced workers do their job.

There are so many professions out there that pay so well so why try to use clients hard earned money to practice/learn on the job all the name of making a quick buck at the expense of unsuspecting clients.

That is totally unacceptable and those who think otherwise should be ashamed of themsleves.

From my first post about this fraudster, I have called him out. Not having certificate is not a barrier to entry. However his mixture of arrogance and ignorance mixed with serious ethical questions is clear to anyone who know his stuff.

Naive thread readers think he is being helpful by posting And replying everything with vacuous nonsense to fill space and deflect attention from several failed builds.

Unfortunately Brabus has probably poisoned this thread permanently with his nonsense...it is sad that little learning can go on here if a fraudster dominates the conversation.

abdulwastecx:
I don't like to get involved in issues like this but Mr lastpage just summed up everything.

Building construction is a complex discipline, we keep learning everyday to improve ourself and do much better.

Some of Mr brabus' mistakes can happened to any builder here because we hardly carry out any soil test to ascertain soil engineering properties and when this soil is carried out, proper attention may not be paid to the laboratory test to determine all the parameters used for the analysis and design.

I worked for a consultancy film (briefly), they just copied and paste design without any analysis. Partly, this may be due to how low some clients are willing to pay(imagine some one paying 50 or 40k) for serious structural design of a duplex on a very poor soil.
In most cases after the soil test might have been done properly , the analysis and design may not be done properly... So you run into many problem.

I have turned down lots of job because either the design were poorly done and the owner is not willing to changed it or half way job with poorly don foundation. For example, I visited a site in warri to investigate a house that belongs to a "Nairalander '', I was shocked when I saw poorly the foundation and the first floor was,
the man wanted us to do the slab and upper floor but I turned it down. I then advice him to either convert the house to a Bungalow or demolish it because I know the house is a disaster waiting to happen.

Oga brabus has learnt one two lessons from those work as I have learned a lot from them. I have visited all those thread and look at things myself.... Learning is a continuous thing and we stop learning when we die

Learning is constant, but you must understand the principles! Either by education or apprenticeship.

This is one of the problems building professionals in Nigeria are facing today. Inability to call out the quacks in their midst! I presume you are a building professional, brabus is not! He pretends to be....pasting pictures from the internet. And abusing his clients when his mistakes make projects go south.
Unless you are willing to call out the fakes in our midst, people will lowball our services and clients suffer. The passive attitude of the professionals on this forum is not good.

As for prospective clients, be aware that Brabus can be using your building project as learning experience for fundamentals of building! If you are fine with that, go ahead. Aside from....well you can read his threads#

Onuokwu:
I have modified my earlier post to capture the soil test report but...here it is anyway

0 - 2.5 m: Light reddish brown, silty sandy lateritic clay
2.5 - 19m: Dark grey very soft peaty organic clay with dead wood
19 - 22m: Light brownish grey soft to firm clay
22 - 24m: Light grey medium clayey silty sand (cmd)with occasional fine to coarse gravel
24 - 26 m: light grey soft to firm clay
26m - 30m: Light grey medium to density silty sand (cmd) with to coarse gravel

Now the worrisome fact is that any geotechnical engineer who is not diligent may have stopped at 22 - 24 meter level of investigation and recommended pile points at that level. But note that this soil strata is good for only 2 meters and is closely followed by poor load bearing soil.

I was made to understand that any house with pile points terminating at that 24 meter level is still at risk.

Generally, the engineers recommend using steel casing for any pile going beyond the 20 meter mark.

Hope this helps.

So apparently the soil test did not capture load bearing capacity at various depths? I think that test needs to be put in perspective. I know no 2 soils and building are the same, but for example burj all Arab foundation depth is 40m driven (don't crucify me for using burj, but we all know that building ) and it's in low loaf bearing soil so.... 26 m means your building foundations will be 8 stories deep for 3 story building

Onuokwu:
26 meters! I will search out the investigation report and post the soil types.

Wow. Please do. You may need a second opinion on that. That seems high to me,even though I can't give informed opinion , and no 2 soils are the same. I'll post something on foundation soon.

Onuokwu:
The place i tested had a recommended pile depth of 26 meters. This meant i had to use steel casing for the pile as the report specifically said that good old rods encircled with Bagco super sack won't do. PVC casing was also discouraged. I am sure you know the cost implication of those steel cases. How did you achieve your pile to that depth?

3 bed is about N1 million now. At least thats what mine attracts. Demand in that area drives the investment. Half of the tenants in my Akoka multidwell are Lekki/Ajah returnees with main reason for "porting" back to mainland being easier traffic and better value for a N1 million rent house.

26 ft or 26 m ?...that is a lot! What soil type did the soil test find?

NL1960:
I cannot believe that Fastshipping posted what he just posted on the quack engineer and refused to give the name and yet we complain everyday that the country is bad. Is fastshipping a 'winch' to know the Nairalanders that contact this guy?. I do not even buy that yarn that the quack is spinning that it is because he wants to feed his family. How was he feeding his family prior to now?. Very soon, the quack will take up building project for a Nairalander and mess it up. Imagine what we are seeing with QC1 build. Can the quack do any other job?. Fastshipping is culpable in the fraud that the guy is currently doing since he has refused to name and shame the guy.

It is like you are traveling down a road and you encounter armed robbers,maybe they shoot at you, but miss. But you manage to turn the car around and escape them. Won't you try and warn other travellers going down that road?

FastShipping:
Each time someone contacted him so far for work, I have made contact with the person to share what I went through with the quack. I don't believe in character assassination that has become rampant here.

Writing on online review or experience with a builder is not character assassination.it is user feedback that helps other people make informed decisions...saying MTN or Glo network in one area is not good is not character assassination of the company....it should help them improve...

but I agree with the new tone the thread is going....helping people learn about building and new methods ...more learning, less bashing.but feedback is important.it is just sad that the feedback is mostly negative because the builder that dominates this thread is a fraud and quack.

n3xt:
Why are you copying my note?

there is no monopoly on ideas.... my first post on this thread was on high pitch roofs so calm down....Mr I know all!!!

n3xt:
Why are you copying my note?

Thought the same thing!

diordaves:
My top three wasteful build/design concept in rental properties in Nigeria:

3. Wall lamps

2. "Parapet"

1. Mortar use during block setting

Parapet and mortar use have been debated a lot here so can I ask why in Nigeria do we install all round wall lamps? It's not uncommon to see in Nigeria an average living room with 8 lamp points: three wall lamp points in the parlour and one lamp point at the middle of the ceiling, three lamp points in the dinning area and one lamp point in the middle. In the rooms; five lamp points each. Just one lamp point at the middle is enough. One can use reading lamp or bed lamp if so desired. All round wall lamps don't add any rental income whatsoever.

This practice is very wasteful as one can save easily about 70% in pipping and wiring cost if just one lamp/bulb point is adopted in the middle of the room as is the standard practice here in the UK. See pic below, no wall lamps but still well presented living area.

What's your top three wasteful practice anyone?

1.High pitch roof, that has no room space.
2.tiles tiles tiles... everywhere....

n3xt:
I know you don't mean it. Check all your postings on Nairaland.

Oh yes! Trust me I know! Many of my posts are about what a fraud you are and how people looking for builders online should avoid you!

The other half is pretty cool roof slope and insulation graphics....any problem? I have a lot more to share....only thing is I'm used to getting paid for it, and I respect clients confidential information.... something you know nothing about!

n3xt:
Keep up the good work!

Console yourself
There's nothing to hate about you. You are not that important....people with hard earned money are my focus

n3xt:
"A perverse man stirs up dissension, and a gossip separates close friends”

Let me hear you say the prayer the same way I said it and put it in reverse or whatever way you like it.

You spend your whole life stirring up conflicts. Take a time to reflect on yourself. Go back and look read all posts on Nairaland and tell yourself the honest truth first. Am I a peace maker or peace breaker?

Sadly, some people thrive on bad news and are always looking for opportunities to destroy others. I found a perfect example in you.

Take care of yourself!

I'm done replying for today. Time to go to bed.

Exactly !!! some people thrive on bad news. YOU ARE BAD NEWS to people who have hard earned money and you serially defraud and dupe them. I will continuously be in this forum to be a counterweight to your lies and deceit. If you are so good, I have challenged you to show this forum a portfolio of your compiled works with satisfied clients .where are they?

See I know you are not happy about your reputation on this forum. It is only a reflection of the work you have done and your attitude on this forum. There is no need for prayer...these are simple questions and issues... don't dodge with empty prayer.

I honestly do not wish to destroy you...you are doing a fine job of destroying your name and what is left of your reputation all by yourself. My only intention is to make prospective clients aware of your reputation.... why don't you want your clients to know about who they hire? Or you don't like scrutiny??

n3xt:
@ back2sender,

Here's a prayer for you. May your life, the life of all your loved ones, the life your unborn generations be ran the same way as the people you supported against me dealt with me in their businesses.

May all your wishes for Brabus who defrauded all his client come to pass. Otherwise, may all your wishes come back to you in billion folds.

Amen!!


A simple amen activates the blessing.

Matthew 5:37New King James Version (NKJV)

37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.


Anything more is from the evil one!!!!! Brabus, you are really a piece of work. You think reverse psychology with prayer will suffice here? Your word cannot be trusted....you are really the height of frauds and manipulators....do you really believe yourself?

MrMcJay:
The crooked quack builder has some clients outside Nairaland who he has done worse things to. In fact, I have a friend who refused to state his experience here as he's a very private person.

After hearing all this crooked builder did, I intended getting guys from Federal SARS to get this quack arrested and put a bullet in his leg, but the client was begging for him. He's a very private person who didn't want wahala.

Furthermore, I learnt he has done the same for a lot of people and it is on record that he has NEVER built an habitable house for any of his victims.

Also, he's never in the office. In fact, I've been to his office at Ikota Shopping Complex twice without meeting anyone. When I asked his neighbours around, they said the place opens very rarely. I guess he uses the place to lure potential victims.

MrMacJay could you please share your friends's experience anonymously. It would help to but read all the issues with this fake builder that litter Nairaland property section thanks

Qc1:
I'm going to need more than N2m to safe the property.


#lifegoeson

#NoMoreVictims

Qc1

More grease to your elbow as you try and repair and complete your project.

It is so unfortunate that people still fall for this fraud called Brabus/nextHome/ne3t .

The walls are closing in.

This may be a faceless forum, but Brabus, I know you are reading this , you committed all these acts with your name.... sooner than later all this will catch up with you.

You can fool some people some of the time, you cannot fool all of the people all of the time.

FastShipping:
All those saga you listed were witnessed by me and everyone here in which I participated on so many occasion. The problem here today was about Brabus and Egunmogaji getting into mud fight.

Let us have sanity on this great thread instead of talking about Brabus all the time. This thread wasn't opened by Hajj to discuss Brabus misdemeanors. I know Hajj won't disagree. This thread was opened to discuss sharing of ideas about building beautiful homes.

I agree with you, let us get back to sharing construction advice and tips, but when a skunk walks into the room, you cannot but notice.
I've also noticed this thread gets more views and responses when there are fights.... I guess people learn more from other people's mistakes too