₦airaland Forum

CanadaOrBust:
Three persons of one God that are all fully God

Everyone is familiar with the concept of the Trinity, which describes three persons existing as one God.
However, what I want you to clarify regarding your understanding of the Trinity is whether these three persons are considered
1. The same or distinct entities.
2. Are they co-equal and co-eternal, or do they have different statuses?
3. Do they share a single will, or do they operate with separate wills?
4. Additionally, can one person of the Trinity be dependent on another, or do they exist independently of one another?

Emusan:
Yes! Jesus knows ALL THINGS but not my own ASSERTION BUT FROM THE SCRIPTURE!

The verse is self explanatory. My main point is, the people who stood in front of Jesus when Jesus made that statement you reference in that verse LATER ACKNOWLEDGED that Jesus KNOWS ALL THINGS IN THE PRESENCE OF JESUS HIMSELF.

Besides, the scripture says Jesus is "THE WISDOM OF GOD!"

Do you understand the implication of a lesser being to be the VERY WISDOM OF GOD ALL MIGHTY?

Thank you for the clarification.

The key issue at hand is that both of these verses are found in Scripture, and the context of each must be considered in addressing the matter.
1. John 16:30. Disciples statement
"Now we understand that You know everything, and You do not need anyone to ask You questions. This gives us confidence to believe that You have come from God.

In this passage, the disciples are affirming their faith in Jesus' divine knowledge.

2. Mark 13:32. Jesus's statement
"But concerning that day or hour, no one knows—not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son—only the Father.

Here, Jesus is explicitly stating that the timing of this day is known only to God the Father, excluding even Himself (the Son) and the angels from that knowledge.

CanadaOrBust:
Very simple: you can't believe God of OT is interested in human affairs and worship and someone else is being wrongly worshipped as him or part of him and he hasn't done anything about it for 2000 years. It's either he's not interested, no longer exists, or exists but is powerless

To be honest, I still don't get it. Don't worry, maybe the other guy honesttalk21 would get it. Probably, I might understand the point you're driving at from his response.

CanadaOrBust:
Other religions are NOT praying to God of OT and saying whoever else they're praying to is His son or part of Him.
You can't say GOD OF OT exists and is interested in human affairs and answers prayers and at same time say Lord Jesus is NOT worthy of worship AS HIM OR PART OF HIM!!! If after 2000 years He hasn't stopped it, it's either he's NOT interested in human worship and affairs or He doesn't exist or no longer exists or exists but is powerless!

Everything you're saying feels crammed together, making it hard to follow. I'm having trouble understanding your point, and it's starting to overwhelm me.

CanadaOrBust:
It's not only essential, it is much easier. But it's NOT indecision, it is a matter of being TRUTHFUL and stating how things REALLY are instead of going for simplicity and expediency. Jesus Christ is God, the Son of God but NOT God the Father. It complicates things but it is the TRUTH!

Could you explain your understanding of the Trinity so I can identify where my confusion might be occurring?

MaxInDHouse:
Jesus knows everything that has to do with his father's will {John 21:17} this could come from any normal human who is astonished at your level of understanding regarding what matters most to him for instance a Nairalander once said to me:

But does that mean MaxInDhouse truly knows everything?
Of course the answer is NO that's why Jesus made it clear to his disciples that even though he knows everything about his father's will {Matthew 11:27} but as for the day and hour God will give him the order to go and destroy all evildoers he does not know! Matthew 24:36

Thank you for the clarification.

This reflects a contrast between what Jesus himself said and what others may have claimed on his behalf.

CanadaOrBust:
*You didn't say what the Bishops had to gain

I mentioned earlier.
The Council of Nicaea sought to establish a unified Christian doctrine, promote theological clarity, and support the political and social stability of the Roman Empire.

Please can you explain what early Christians who did not believe Jesus is God stood to gain from their disbelief?

CanadaOrBust:
The problem is that you are differentiating Jesus too much from the Father. They are not that different. The father raising him from dead is almost same as he raising himself. I gave an example: suppose I'm able to send my thought on errands - they'd be separate from me but still totally me.
Jesus is the member of the Godhead that died. That's what we are sure about

It's essential to take a clear stance: things can either be different or the same. Indecision will only lead to confusion and ambiguity. Choose a side and commit to it instead of saying not that different.

CanadaOrBust:
You can't believe what you wrote above and at same time believe the OT.
God will NOT sit by for 2000 years and watch the worship of non-God Jesus exponentially grow and thrive

Throughout history, God has seemingly allowed many belief systems to grow and thrive, including those outside monotheism (e.g., ancient polytheistic religions). The persistence or spread of a belief system does not necessarily reflect divine endorsement or rejection but might align with historical, cultural, and social factors.

Please explain why God allows other religions to exist. According to your reasoning, does that imply that their God is watching over them as well?
1. Christianity – 2.38 billion (31.2% of the global population) over 2000 years
2. Islam – 1.91 billion (24.1%) Over 1400 years
3. Secular/Non-religious/Agnostic/Atheist – 1.19 billion (15.6%)
4. Hinduism – 1.16 billion (15%) 1500 BCE or earlier.
5. Buddhism – 506 million (6.6%) Circa 6th century BCE.
6. Chinese traditional religion – 394 million (5%)
7. Ethnic religions (including African traditional religions) – 300 million (4%)
8. Sikhism – 26 million (0.3%)
9. Judaism – 14.7 million (0.2%)
10. Other religions (e.g., Baháʼí, Jainism, Shinto) – 58 million (0.8%)

If we set aside population as a factor, the Gods of Hinduism are the most effective in maintaining its religion.

CanadaOrBust:
The OT shows clearly that if a group of bishops, devout worshippers of God, sincerely pray to God to give them clarity as to the true nature of Christ, He would NOT mislead them. And even if they somehow got it wrong He'd shortly correct it. Especially pertaining something as important as how to worship Him.

Sincerity does not equate correctness. Throughout church history, sincere leaders have held differing beliefs about core doctrines, indicating that sincere prayer does not guarantee correct understanding.

CanadaOrBust:
You kidding, right? Why would anyone recognize a 33-year old son of a carpenter with no money or connections as God?!!
The easiest thing to say is "God can only have one expression". End of discussion. You avoid all the headache. UNLESS there is just too much compelling evidence that is NOT the case. Then, despite yourself, you say the truth.
The Nicaea Bishops had NOTHING to gain by concluding Jesus is God, and all sorts of headache to raise!

The bolded statement speaks volumes on its own. It’s essential to look beyond the status of the 33-year-old son of a carpenter; there is no evidence suggesting that he is equated with God in any definitive way. Were the early Christians truly followers of Christ if they did not accept his divinity? What would they gain by rejecting the notion of Jesus as God during that period?

Moreover, it is crucial to consider the motivations behind the decisions made at the Council of Nicaea. The bishops who participated had much to gain from their formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity. Their actions were not merely about faith but were also influenced by the political and social dynamics of the time. This raises questions about the authenticity of their beliefs and the implications of their theological inventions.

CanadaOrBust:
Not only can he, he did! God, the son of God, willingly gave his life, then took it up again, exactly as he said he would - unless you don't believe NT

Which other member of the Godhead is capable of dying? The key issue is not whether Jesus prophesied his own death or resurrection. Rather, it is essential to recognize that it was the will of the Father, not Jesus’s own desire, that led to his death. Furthermore, it is important to note that Jesus did not raise himself; instead, it was God who raised him from the dead.

Emusan:
You don't need clarity.

Stop lying.

You already on this and I've done before.

So, stop dragging us backward!

I assure you that I am being honest and not trying to hold anyone back. If you had provided clear explanations regarding the verse I referenced, I wouldn’t have needed to ask for clarification again.

Additionally, the other person addressed you multiple times, yet I still couldn't find any clear reasoning behind why Jesus stated that He did not know certain things. The only insight I could find was your assertion that "Jesus knows all things."

CanadaOrBust:
All this discussion would arise if you don't believe that God is involved in human affairs and listens to prayers.
If you believe God is involved and listens to prayers then there is no way he would have allowed worship of Jesus to happen and grow and keep thriving

The reality is that, whether or not we pray, God remains the ultimate controller and sustainer of the entire universe. His presence and influence permeate all aspects of existence. While God is directly engaged with the affairs of humanity, He does not interfere with our individual actions, as He has granted us the gift of free will. This means that although divine intervention is possible, we are ultimately responsible for our choices and the paths we take.

CanadaOrBust:
All this discussion would arise if you don't believe that God is involved in human affairs and listens to prayers.
If you believe God is involved and listens to prayers then there is no way he would have allowed worship of Jesus to happen and grow and keep thriving

You're still missing my main point. What are the reasons early Christians did not recognize Jesus as God? Before the voting

CanadaOrBust:
It doesn't necessarily have to be for insight, it could be for any reason. In the case of Lord Jesus He came to die and be raised again after 3 days. He said he himself laid down his life and would pick it up again after 3 days, and that nobody could take it unless he voluntarily laid it down.

In a nutshell, God can die.

CanadaOrBust:
You are trying to challenge a conclusion reached by people who were much wiser than you and who spent their lives studying the Bible.
They gathered at Nicene and prayed for divine guidance to reach the right conclusion. After debate of several days they came out with the conclusion that Jesus was God or made of same "substance".

Did you ever consider that if the divinity of Jesus Christ were so undeniably clear, there would be no need for debate about his nature? This indicates that even in ancient times, there were those who did not believe in or perceive Jesus as God. A prime example is the Arian controversy, which highlighted the fact that many early Christians did not agree that Jesus was of the same substance as God. One could argue that the conclusions reached at the Council of Nicaea represent only one of many possible theological interpretations of Jesus' nature.

Regarding the wisdom of the council members, how can you assert that they were wiser or more enlightened than people today, especially considering you have not had the opportunity to meet them?

It's important to note that the gathering at the Council of Nicaea was not solely a theological endeavor; it was also significantly influenced by political and cultural factors, particularly Emperor Constantine's desire for unity within the Roman Empire. This suggests that their conclusions may have been shaped by considerations beyond mere spiritual insight.

CanadaOrBust:
Bottom line is, God or part of God Himself did come to earth at least once that we are sure of.

God, being all-knowing, does not need to become part of His creation in order to understand or empathize with what His creation experiences.

As an omniscient being, He inherently possesses complete knowledge of every emotion, thought, and action within His creation. Given His infinite wisdom and understanding, there is no necessity for Him to physically enter creation to gain further insight, for He already perceives everything beyond the limitations of time and space. His omnipresence ensures that He is aware of every detail without needing to experience it firsthand.

Emusan:
BUT THE SON KNOWS ALL THINGS.

I need clarification about this verse.

In Matthew 24:36 (NIV), it states,
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

If Jesus is the one speaking, why did He say He didn’t know if He actually did? What was His purpose in saying He was unaware?

It's quite ironic how Jesus or the Holy Spirit seems to appear to people from various Christian denominations, offering them different and often contradictory answers to the same questions.

This gives the impression that there might be more than one Jesus or Holy Spirit, as the guidance people receive doesn't always align, despite everyone claiming to hear from the same source.

CanadaOrBust:
It even happens amongst us humans. Owners of companies going in as low-level employee. Have you seen the reality show "undercover boss"?

To start with, a company owner is not responsible for the creation of the employees; he merely hires them to work for his business. His role is to recruit individuals who possess the skills needed to contribute to the organization.

Now, even if we were to imagine a scenario where the owner actually created his employees, one would have to question the purpose of him becoming part of his own creation. What would his intentions be in such a situation?

Confirmedzombie:
Wasted efforts. The Most Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW) Have sanction Israel for destruction.

Iran is covered by the Most Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW)

Insha Allah Israel will be levelled down.

What is this bayi?

CanadaOrBust:
It is not only natural that a creator would at some point like to interact with his creation at their level, but evidence abound of divine visitation. If you created dogs wouldn't you at one point want to experience being a dog - if not for knowledge, for fun

The idea of a creator desiring to experience life at the level of their creation is both imaginative and thought-provoking.

Sand2022:
I am not into church name stuff, I am for Jesus. If you want to know the one I currently attend in person, you already know it - Jehovah's Witness.

Are you a politician?

MaxInDHouse:
We don't view your Allah or the gods of Christendom churches as God so when i say the congregation of God i mean Jehovah's Witnesses globally!

My Jehovah's Witness friends seem to either be without fault or merely putting on a facade, because I have never seen them stand before the congregation of God to admit their mistakes and seek help in overcoming their wrongdoings. It's as if they never acknowledge their errors, or they choose to hide them rather than openly seeking forgiveness and support to avoid repeating them.

MaxInDHouse:
You need to understand that they don't have to declare themselves for us to know it's what matters to them most that exposes them.
So if you see anyone always discussing politics and supporting one politician or party against another he or she has become a politician!

Are you suggesting that politics is a significant factor influencing many ExJWs?

MaxInDHouse:
If they repent they will be welcomed again as for outsiders there are many who loves pure worship but don't know how to identify it they are our priority not just crowd! Matthew 10:6

Why not actively encourage them to repent for their mistakes instead of waiting for them to take the initiative to change?

donnie:
This was not a religious thing, but a cultural thing. This is our black African culture on display right from the Old Testament.

Do you say it was wrong back then?

MrPresident1:
You have to understand background, context and purpose then you will be able to make a reasonable conclusion.

I had provided the Bible's perspective on child betrothal, and when the girl passes the flower of her age and need so REQUIRE, let her husband do the needful, they sin not, let them marry.

Thank you for your explanation. I get it clearly

MaxInDHouse:
The congregation of God!

Check the profile of any ExJW you will see what is in their minds, they are no longer for God's Kingdom rather they are yearning for human government so they can't be 100% on both sides! Matthew 6:24


YES! 1Corinthians 5:11-13; 2John 10-11

The congregation of God, please make me understand better.

There are many well-known ExJW and they are not politicians

You’ve decided to cut off communication with exJW, yet you continue to pursue relationships with people outside the faith.

MaxInDHouse:
Whoever goes against scriptural standard deliberately will be given the chance to say:
"i'm sorry, please help me not to repeat it"
But whoever wants to justify wrongdoing will be DISFELLOWSHIPED GLOBALLY meaning there is no place on earth where he could be acknowledged as a JW again and nobody will greet him among JWs throughout the earth!

I still don't understand oo. Who do the wrong doers tell "I'm sorry, please help me not to repeat it".

MaxInDHouse:
Politicians!

They know it's impossible to gain dominance over their fellow worshipers but that's what they want so they will continue feeling bad yet they can't walk away.

How many Ex JW politicians do we have now?

MaxInDHouse:
The wicked flee when no one pursues them, But the righteous are as confident as a lion. Proverbs 28:1

And a highway will be there, Yes, a way called the Way of Holiness. The unclean one will not travel on it. It is reserved for the one walking on the way; No one foolish will stray onto it. Isaiah 35:8

So no unclean can remain PHYSICALLY and MENTALLY on the way of holiness!

So no more communication with the Disfellowshipped members?

MaxInDHouse:
Point 1
When a JW goes wrong instantly they admit it as wrong which disqualifies him from being one of us so he will take steps to correct himself which includes never repeating it.
He will be REPROVED PUBLICLY to be announced globally that this brother has committed a blunder but he has repented at that time he is no longer worthy of privileges in our midst until he retrace his step.

Globally as in

JW like all humans, are imperfect and can make mistakes or commit wrongs. However, what type of misconduct or transgression would be severe enough to disqualify a Jehovah's Witness and warrant such public reproval and announcement.

MaxInDHouse:
Point 2
Anyone claiming PIMO has declared himself as no longer with us so he or she can't represent our God as one of His worshipers our God only acknowledges those doing things with the same line of thought! John 17:22

Who, in their right mind, would feel threatened in the presence of a community that values peace and non-violence? It’s like being afraid of a puppy parade! What could have driven a PIMO or an ex-JW to escape from an environment said to be filled with love and compassion? Could it be a secret passion for chaos or a bizarre addiction to drama?

MaxInDHouse:
Point 3
An Ex-jw is the same as a PIMO both are on the same page the only difference is while the PIMO is hiding his own never to make us see what he has in mind the Ex-jw is no longer with us both physically and mentally!

Maybe they are scared of something

MaxInDHouse:
YES!
Because according to God His worshipers are His WITNESSES {Isaiah 43:10} who are reflecting His qualities through their activities as His people.
That's why only Jehovah's Witnesses befits His worshipers as He should be viewed.
So if some religionists aren't reflecting the qualities of a God then it's either such a god is worthless or doesn't exist at all! Matthew 7:21-23

When a Jehovah's Witness makes a mistake, whose qualities are they reflecting?

Similarly, when someone is PIMO, whose characteristics do they embody?

What about an ex-Jehovah's Witness or a disfellowshipped individual, whose traits are evident in their actions and attitudes?

MrPresident1:
This is what the Bible says

1 Corinthians 7:36
But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.

A woman has a flower of age, and after passing it, she needs so or requires what has to be done. She is already betrothed, the bible encourages the man to do what he will. They sin not: let them marry.

This is the Bible standard, and this is where the world is returning when Christ arises to take the throne of the earth.

So therefore, you see nothing wrong with the union between the two right?