Negro_Ntns:

It is expected that the move to create Anioma state will meet with great pushback in both Edo and Delta states.

tpia@:

most likely it will.

Who will oppose it in Edo state? On what grounds? What makes you think Edo state politics is even remotely concerned with what happens in Anioma?

The only possible objection I can think of is this Oza nogogo issue, but that issue is not even well known. There will most likely be no "pushback" from Edo state.

And who will oppose it in Delta state? Are you aware of the statements about "Real Delta" vs. Anioma that some of the people there make? Are you unaware of the grumbling about Warri not being the capital?



I also responded to your statement about a planned "all out attack on the Ika area" by Benin under the moniker PhysicsQED, but the spambot caught/hid the post.

ezeagu:

Their ethnicity is no longer Yoruba and never will be ever again. Their Yoruba past is evident in some things, but they have been absorbed just like the Edo migrants have. Something people will have to get over.

Oza nogogo has not been absorbed.

Oza nogogo is Bini. When I tried to rightfully claim them as Bini (which they are) somebody here fought very hard for them to be denied of who they are based on claims of some imperial lordship over them by a certain kingdom! I'm starting to think that this is motivated more by mineral royalties than common sense.

Somebody is talking about Benin kingdom when I am instead talking about the Bini ethnicity and I think it is a deliberate attempt to mislead. Under any reasonable definition of ethnicity, the oppressed Oza nogogo people are of the Bini stock and not of the Anioma sub-group of the Igbos. This whole claim of them being "Anioma" is absurd. Anioma is an identity created only a few decades back but it did not exist prior to the 20th century and did not even exist at the beginning of the 20th century. This claim simply has no basis. There is no way that they are absorbed when they are clearly Bini.

@ Ogbuefi 1

1. I think you're being dishonest.

a) You couldn't answer exotik's question about Oba Eweka and you thought the Oba of Lagos had a unique title yet you were pretending to be some sort of expert on kings.

b) What is sillier is your claim that the Omu practice was instituted in imitation of the antecedents and position of a woman that they despised!

c) Even sillier still is the claim about the Iyoba's servants going to farm crops! What a neophyte! I told you I would break down that funny story very soon and in detail after I commented on the Agboghidi story, so you need not worry about what I have to say there. I will certainly explain to you where you have erred there. The spambot deterred me from addressing the story about Agboghidi of Ugo, which I intend to respond to at length, so I did not yet discuss in detail the Iyoba story.

d) I NEVER said that Chime was necessarily an Igbo man. If you were even the least bit familiar with my previous posts on this board, you would know that me, bokohalal, and ezeagu had a discussion about that "Chima" (in some sources he is referred to as Eze Chima) possibly coming from "Ehima" (a Benin name), and how the Igbo "chi" and the Edo "ehi" referred to the same concept. These are posts from a while ago which multiple posters on this board - from Bini, Igbo, and other ethnic groups can attest to. I said, in those discussions, that he was either an Igbo who had moved to Benin (which must have been large and a trade center, since numerous European visitors - Portuguese, Dutch, Italian, and Spanish, among others - attested to the fact that it was a large and thriving metropolis only a century after the time period of Oba Esigie,) OR he was a native Benin man of Edo origin. I honestly don't care which one he was, but if you must insist that he assaulted an old woman (the Iyoba) over some crops like some bush, uncouth, deranged, and highly aggressive, lawless thug, I maintain the he would necessarily have to be a foreigner and not Edo or under the influence of a foreign culture. If you still insist that he was Edo and that he committed the acts you keep claiming then you are insisting that all of those people in Anioma and Onitsha that claim a connection to him are descended from or were led by some brainless thug! Onitsha was founded by a thug who sent grown men to beat up an old woman?!

e) As for this or that king being beheaded, Egharevba also said that Oba Ohen, a weak and bad king of Benin, was killed by the Benin people for his crimes. It was the same Chief Jacob Egharevba who said that Oba Obanosa, originally a very wise king (a "Godly king" - the source of his coronation name) had petty disputes with rivals that led to his downfall. The same Jacob Egharevba is the primary source for the fact the Igala military greatly tested Benin's might. The same Jacob Egharevba wrote these things and you're here telling me that Egharevba had too much pride to record history without elevating the prestige of Benin! And you were accusing me of selective use of sources. Hilarious. And accusing Jacob Egharevba of "excessive" Benin pride really is one of the most ludicrous things I have seen on this thread. Egharevba was proud of his heritage, but "excessive"? That's just unwarranted.

2) The fact is that your own beloved sources, such as those UN reports, argue that Delta state (which has much more money, via OIL) is only  slightly ahead of Edo state in some areas, while Edo state is ahead of Delta in others. So I can only express surprise at how a state which has a huge allocation and so many resources is not blowing anybody out of the water according to the very reports that you rely on for reassurance.

3) The Omu title is "completely different in concept"? Please, Mr. "Expert" don't pretend for even a second that you know about the Iyoba tradition in detail to where you could start making analyses or comparisons. Your knowledge about the Iyoba is almost certainly very shallow. There have been multiple articles written by infatuated westerners studying the Iyoba of Benin and also books in which the Iyobas (along with other aspects of Benin) have been studied and yet even their knowledge is limited and people at the Benin Palace and other elders undoubtedly understand the role and history of the Iyoba in depth. It is therefore highly presumptuous of you to start claiming that the Omu is so different in concept from another title of which you have only a very shallow knowledge. I am not asking about the later intricacies of the title, all I know is that it would not exist without the Iyoba title, which inspired it.

4) On the breadfruit thing, are you serious? The second link I gave you, explaining the names of the breadfruit and how they were used as direct snacks or in cakes was written by YORUBAS! You did not even bother to click on that link did you? The authors are: O.S. FASASI,  A.F. ELEYINMI, A.R. FASASI and O.R. KARIM  and they are from FUT Akure, the University of Ibadan, and Olabisi Onabanjo University!!

I dey laugh!!

To use your words, I am not "privy to" the snacks, cuisine, and culinary delicacies of the entire Yoruba ethnic group and do not claim to be, but I am slightly amused at your illogicality in claiming that you are privy to such information and that you expect others to accept that you are either. You were earlier pretending to be an expert on the words for kings and the Oba of Lagos and you were exposed as a neophyte there, yet you keep venturing into Yoruba history. At this point it is really beneath me to entertain any new theories you have about the words for pears or pepperfruit, so I will not even bother to ask any Yorubas for any assistance there, nor would I bother to perform a simple search. I have already shown both theoretical and actual errors in your food claim and it would be silly to even continue along this avenue of thought.

5) On the HDI index, if you are honest, you will admit that you had no idea what the material you were citing was really based on. If you actually did, and still posted that claim, it would be even worse, because it would mean that you are even more of a deliberate propagandist than I thought. To tell the truth, I do not care even the least bit what is being claimed for Edo state with regard to the education index because what's actually important is what's on the ground. It is also very funny that when an index claims that Edo state is leading in an area it becomes a "so-called" index to you, but when it says your state or group is leading in some area, it becomes unassailable gospel!

6) I did not say that the Anioma were not liberal minded. There is no way I could make any pronouncement on how liberal or non-liberal they are. I only mentioned that they were able to step up their liberalness to the point of honoring mothers of kings only when they came into contact with Benin influence. Next, you said:

"unlike the Iyoba title derived from her association with the Oba , the Omu attains that title independently of the Obi and this is why we often use the word "queen" to define her not just a kings consort who attained the role of a "queen mother".

I think you should be able to spot the error you made there. I am not going to harp on this too much, but I hope you are not actually under the impression that there is not a word for a queen in the Benin royal palace. Iyoba means the king's mother by the way. There are words for queens, it's just that Iyoba is (rightfully) distinct and set apart for historical reasons.

7) Regarding your insinuation about somebody needing to be an "assimilated Edo" to be given a title in Benin, I just have to laugh at more unfounded claims. Do know who Stanley David Garrick, the Egaibu of Siluko was?

"Honour

In recognition of his services to Benin, baronial lands in the district of Siluko were settled on Garrick in 1943 as a personal gift of the Benin monarch, HRH Oba Akenzua II.

Private life

Garrick and his wife, Comfort Ramotu, had three sons and two daughters in a marriage lasting over four decades.

Last years

In later years, Garrick devoted his time to his farms and rubber plantations. However, the loss of his sight towards the end of his life curtailed the enjoyment of his estates. On his death in 1958, the Siluko barony passed to his eldest son and heir, George A. Garrick - better known as the holder of Nigeria's High Jump record between 1938 and 1953.

Descendants

Among Garrick's descendants are several grandchildren who have also dedicated themselves to public service. They include His Lordship Stanley Shenko Alagoa, Justice of the Nigerian Court of Appeal; His Excellency Kayode Ralph Garrick, Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Nigeria to Brazil; Dr. Chike Gwam, international practitioner of paediatric and internal medicine; and Dr (Mrs) Abigail Funlayo Afiesimama (née Alagoa), a Linguist and university lecturer.

Memorial

The Garrick Memorial School, a secondary school in Benin City, is named in honour of Stanley David Garrick and its ethos is based on his spirit of civic duty."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Garrick

He was not even a Nigerian! He was a Sierra Leone Creole and neither he nor his children were ever "assimilated" Edo.

8 ) Regarding Zik, my point is that when the Oba of Benin was not only supporting the NCNC for mutual gain, but also supporting the Zikist movement (who were considered radicals), you should temper these claims about Benin and Zik because of the reality that existed at that time.

The real purpose of posting that was to point out that your elders have a more reasonable view of things and are not just talking about tradeoffs for the Midwest creation movement.

What's the view of a Benin elder and a high ranking Benin chief on past leaders and the debt owed them?

"Simon Ebegbulem, Benin City

The  Esogban of Benin Kingdom, Chief David Edebiri who marked his eightieth birthday last week, in this interview reviewed Nigeria’s 50 years as independent country and declared that the nation has failed the founding fathers of the nation .

Esogban who worked very closely with the  Nationalists like    Dr Nnamdi Azikiwe, Chief Anthony Enahoro, Obafemi Awolowo, also commented on the political situation in the country and the curse placed on kidnappers in the state by the Oba of Benin.

Excerpts:

As   a man  who worked very closely with the nation’s nationalists, how would you access the nation at 50?

I have been to Abuja severally and as I go along within the city, I have not seen any good street named after Nnamdi Azikiwe, apart from the Airport. I have searched  again for any monument named after Ernest Ikoli.

Ernest Ikoli was the doyen of our profession, journalism. I have been to Asaba no single street or any monument named after Nduka Eze. So many of our colleagues with whom I served as a foot soldier for the liberation of Nigeria , have left for the other world.

I want to confess that many of them died out of frustration because they were not remembered or treated as pioneers in this enterprise of creating a good Nigeria.

So when it pleased the present administration to remember me without canvassing for it, I felt it was necessary to thank God. If I did not live up to this time, I would have joined the rank of those who are today not remembered for their heroic deed.

The event will be coming up here on the 9th of October, 2010. Having said that, I entered into the nationalist battle at the age of 20 after that we went in to politics. I have spent almost 60 years doing politics until 2003 when I said it was time to say good bye to partisan politics."


"So are you satisfied with our progress so far as a Nation?

I am not satisfied at all. I put it in my book that is in the works  that this was not the dream of the founders of this nation.

This was not the dream of the youths who sacrificed their lives for Nigeria . People who were extremely brilliant. I wish some of you were able to know people like Raji Abdalah. He was the President General of the Zikist Movement. He was from Okene here.

He was charged with sedition before a white Majesty and he refused to take any plea. He told the white people that you cannot try me. Are you guilty or  not guilty? He kept mute because you are a foreigner; I am not subject to your law. He was jailed. Mokugbu Okoye went before the same court, he refused to make a plea.

We want you people to quit Nigeria that is all. Osita Agwuna, the same thing. This was not the dream of those young men. Papa Nnamdi Azikiwe who fought with all his life, this was not his dream. Obafemi Awolowo, the best political tactician I have ever worked with, this was not his dream. So how can I be happy with the system fifty years after."

http://www.vanguardngr.com/2010/10/zik-awo-others-not-recognised-enough-edebiri/

My quote was about nationalists and appreciation of the efforts of those who had the courage to do what they did, and was not really about the liberalism of Oba Akenzua II, but about his political orientation.

By the way, the Benin-Delta People's Party founded by Oba Akenzua II was initially independent of the NCNC. It was only allied with the NCNC for the Midwest state creation (and later absorbed) after his earlier, unrelated actions in support of the Zikists. Oba Akenzua II, like H. Omo-Osagie (who initially tried to keep Otu Edo independent, but later aligned with NCNC anyways), was initially cautious and wary of any alliance with any political party (whether NCNC or NPC or anybody) based outside of the Midwest, despite his earlier actions in support of the Zikists in 1949. In fact, there was not even an AG Western Region Government in 1949, not to talk of any "humiliation" and there was certainly no NCNC - Midwest alliance. Even when Oba Akenzua II started BDPP it was originally deliberately and intentionally independent of any outside political power, just like Otu Edo was.

More from Chief Amechi:

"You must have finished secondary school then?

I had not finished, I was still a student. I was about the youngest member then. So, in 1948, I finished, picked a job, worked for a little while at St. Patrick College, Asaba. And then I was employed by a transport company in Benin , Armel transport company. I started work and in Benin we formed a branch of Zikist Movement - Henry Igbodua was our chairman, Chike Kuya was the secretary and I was the assistant secretary. They already had a branch when I came so I joined them.

Then in 1949, there was this call in Lagos for a revolution. The Zikist Movement called a meeting and the issue was raised and we decided on a three-phased programme to secure independence. First of all, passive resistance, then demonstration and then total confrontation. We got this cleared with NCNC which was our parent body. So, to get on, it was decided that a lecture will be delivered and Osita Agwuna, the late Igwe of Enugwu-Ukwu agreed to deliver the lecture. Then the title was 'A Call for Revolution'.

It was to be delivered at Tom Jones Hall in Lagos . Enahoro presided. There were other nationalists like Fred Anyiam, Mallam Raji Abdallah and so forth. The lecture was delivered calling for independence. By then Marshall Ebi was the editor of African Echo and he was already serving a prison sentence for an editorial he wrote in the newspaper. After this lecture the police swooped on Osita Agwuna, Mokwugo Okoye, Anyiam, Abdallah, myself and so on and charged us to court. Of course our policy was not to plead in the court, not even to recognize the court. While the trial was on it was decided to replicate the lecture again at Glover Memorial Hall in Lagos. The lecture was delivered by someone else because Osita Agwuna was in police detention. That made them to arrest more people.

They also decided to arrest the leaders of Zikist Movement from different locations in the country. Many of us were sentenced to various terms of imprisonment and what government did was to ban the Zikist Movement in the early 1950s and the leaders were imprisoned. In my own case, after I had spent four days in detention and I was to be charged to court I did not know that the Oba of Benin intervened on my behalf. I was in Benin so the Oba, not the present Oba but his father, Akenzua, intervened and I was released. Thereafter, I moved down to Lagos in 1950 when other leaders have been imprisoned to reinforce what remained. We played it at a low profile until 1952 when we founded another organization, we called it the NCNC Youth Association. I became the secretary-general of that association. We carried out the programme of Zikist Movement even though in a slightly slowed pace until 1955 when I was appointed to go to Enugu to take over the organization of NCNC, our parent body, in the whole of the Eastern region, now nine states." - Dara Akunwafor Mbazulike Amechi

http://www.africancrisis.co.za/Article.php?ID=49979&

www.africancrisis.co.za/Article.php">http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:p7lM6kbJlvUJ:www.africancrisis.co.za/Article.php%3FID%3D49979%26+Oba+Akenzua+Zikist+movement&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com

9) It is rather silly to claim that the publications and academic history of different scholars cannot be checked, followed, and found out independently of claims from the scholars themselves! Are you serious?! How do you think universities are run?! You think people just write down claims on their CV and these get accepted?! Journals can be looked at, searches can be performed, citations can be counted, and YES there are ways of finding out who did what and when they did these things.

Let me make this as clear, simple and straightforward as is humanly possible:

Osagie = biochemist, founding faculty member of uniben, former head of the biochemistry department at uniben (1985), former Dean of Science at Uniben (1990), a past president of Nigeria's biochemistry society, over 70 papers and over a hundred including review articles, hundreds of citations, etc., etc.

Nwanze = biochemist with fewer publications and fewer citations, never president of Nigeria's biochemistry society, academically junior to Osagie, etc., etc.

It's THAT simple.

10) If you are not completely dishonest you will immediately rescind the ridiculous assertion you have just made - that Tijiani Yesufu, Grace Alele-Williams, Onokerhoraye, Abhulimen Anao, and Nwanze - were better than any Bini academic on merit alone. That is such an incredibly strange claim that I wonder how you could have typed it without deliberately attempting to mislead people. Have you even made any attempt to check the profiles of these academics?

11) My "digression" with respect to your mention of Dr. Ndili and nuclear physics is because you seemed to be suggesting that it was a greater achievement than Emovon's because Nigerians say that he was the first nuclear physicist in black Africa. Well my point was that I could equally claim that Dr. Emovon was the first physical chemist in black Africa, but I have not done so out of cautiousness. If that was not what you were suggesting, then you were arguing that the area of the Ph.D was impressive in itself, but as I pointed out, he was not the first physics Ph.D and so you must be claiming that it is the sub-field (nuclear physics) that was the bragging point, yet I could list Binis that were the first Ph.Ds in some sub-field (like mathematical physics or topology) of a science in Africa, so I don't see why that claim was brought up.

Regarding Unijos and UNN, I'm really amused by you having to resort to those prestige comparisons.The reality is that it is easier for a qualified Igbo to be appointed VC of UNN than for a person coming from a group which is outnumbered 50 to 1 to be appointed to a VC position of any federal university earlier than him and before people from many other groups had produced a VC. If Professor Tiamiyu Bello-Osagie had been appointed VC of Uniben at some point in the early 70s, in recognition of his administrative experience, we would not even be having this discussion. But he is well remembered anyways, so nobody is really now fretting about it that much.


[On a completely unrelated note, I did some digging around and found out that A.M Taylor (from Ghana) got his M.A. (not Ph.D) in 1947, and that Chike Obi was the first African Ph.D in mathematics, as was believed.]

12) "I merely included Prof  Onwuachi because he is an academician , and the Institute of International Affairs is an educational institution not the Society of Nigerian Engineers whose head need not be a Phd holder talkless of a professor."

An educational institution? It's a political think tank!

"The Institute is a specialised instrument of foreign policy formulation in Nigeria. It serves as an intellectual base upon which decision-makers rely for informed opinion and expert advice in order to make rational choices between contending policy options." - from the institute's very own website

I am not an engineer but I have more respect for any engineer than I do for the academicians at any government political think tank (not "educational institution" in any country in the world - whether it's Nigeria, the US, Britain, etc.

I don't need guys with Ph.Ds and such things to pontificate to me about what I should think regarding international affairs, but I would have more esteem for a competent or accomplished engineer without a Ph.D any day over a political think tank professor. I'm obviously biased there, but not without good reason. These think tanks are very often off the mark in their claims and analyses in many countries.

Incidentally, G.O.S. Ekhaguere is president of the International Centre for Mathematical & Computer Sciences in Nigeria and Sunday Iyahen was previously director of the National Mathematical Centre, at Abuja, both of which are real educational institutions and not political think tanks.

And I said that you were beginning to just name drop along ethnic lines because you started listing firsts that were not even from Anioma.

13) My point about St. Thomas is that the school was founded by white missionaries, so it's absurd to claim any superiority by primacy when you beat a group (the Binis) to the punch because of the activities of white missionaries rather than the efforts of individual Anioma people. This is obvious to anyone else, but you insisted, like a propagandist, in trying to brag about how it was older than Edo College, when it was older because it was founded by white missionaries.


As for Catholicism, I'm pretty sure that some Itsekiri embraced Catholicism, long before Bishop Nwaezeapu, though they probably didn't think they could have produced a Bishop in the 1600s (and they probably couldn't have), so there was no way the Itsekiri (who were small in terms of population) could have competed with other groups once it was possible for other groups to embrace it. I still don't think most Binis are Catholic (just from my experiences) so we don't really enter into that whole Catholic thing. Yes the Catholics really helped you guys. A lot. And I mean a lot. And in case you don't get it, I mean a LOT. There's no disagreement on my part here.


Also, when did I say Kings College, Lagos is older than some other school (CMS Bariga, in your example)? I don't even care. I said "like Kings College" to point out that Oba Eweka II not only initiated the request for a school, but that he had standards for the school, because of the school his son had attended.

14) Skills acquisition center as a secondary school? Call it whatever you want. I don't care. Like I said in an earlier post (I don't know if you saw it, it's on p.30), there were still rebel chiefs near Benin in 1898 so it would have been foolish for the British to start establishing colonial structures when they had not yet gained full control of that future colonial region yet.

15) I couldn't care less about conjectural theories about Agbor's oldest communities. There are things written by some Binis claiming that Benin goes back almost to the time of Christ and that iya were being built at some ludicrously early time, but I didn't rely on such things, because I have too much self respect to sink to that level in an argument. You'll have to do better than that. I had a full response for your responses to the Benin moats issue that I was going to post, but I was deterred by the fact that my other posts before it could not even get through.

16) Half of my replies were blocked by the spambot and I am really getting too annoyed with this thread but you just pack on fallacy after distortion after fallacy and I have to reply because of how skewed all your claims are. I had responses for all your claims about Ijaws, moats, Urhobos in Ogiso times and the word Aka, odionweres, Alilehan (Aileleihan) and Oza nogogo, your warped and silly claim about slaves, lineages and historical figures, your reference to the 1921 census and population, and every other distortion, and I might post them later, but the inability of the spam bot to regain its sanity in screening what posts to ban or not ban is really annoying and I'm taking a break from this thread. You'll hear from me in a week or so. Adios for now.

LMAO @ saying Edo state is dry!

Edo state is not using even up to 1/8 of its natural resources (whether we're talking about oil, rubber, timber, minerals, or anything else) and it is better than Delta state in multiple statistics according to those UN reports that he loves so much. Edo state is not really using its oil and is still keeping pace with other states and is outdoing many states in several aspects. One would think that with 89% of Delta's money coming from oil (according to their own state government) and with their allocation being four or more times greater than Edo state's allocation, they would be so much further ahead than they are or at least would be blowing other states out of the water, but for his claims he instead needs to use screwed up "GDP index" calculations used to make baseless HDI figures that cannot stand up to scrutiny. I will respond to his other distortions as the spam box permits.

Ogbuefi 1: @Exothief, Na your papa be be Ozuor, Or should I use the common Edo curse Ogun will do this or that, These are curse used by children of which you are one.Like I said earlier your words are are harmless to me.You started with Iguefi I ignored that because I know that your are a mischievous person. Since you have refused to refrain from that, you are be renamed "Exothief"  and a pathetic crook for that matter.Go through your thread, what is the new information you have added to your miserable points ? None as far as I  as concerned. But I think you are evn to young to understand anything.You must have been a very dull student in school.
I would not waste any valuable time to debate on anything with you because like I always say you are beneath me and a mis match for me in this kind of debate because you dont know anything and this is the problem with many of our youths in this country.Take for instance his claim that Igboland is "full of red sand and bushes", Yes there are  red sand almost everywhere in Nigeria but I dont think a person of Benin descent should mock an Igbo over red sand and bushes because Benin leads this country in both.One more advice, Exothief, try and trace your lineage to who evr was the founder , I have done the genealogy of my lineage to one of the founders of my community.Let me give you a clue, You can count the number of the said IGIOGBE houses, lol

Lol, you sound frustrated. Why are you lashing out? You should answer his question about Oba Eweka and also about why they would adopt a practice (the "Omu" queen mother tradition) out of inspiration from a woman that they despised. This isn't politics, it's the culture section, so there's no need to dodge his points like a politician. Also, you should be thanking him.  He educated you about the Oba of Lagos and  about Edo words free of charge! So now you won't make those mistakes again when proclaiming to be an expert and not a neophyte. Make sure to thank exotik for educating an "expert" on the Midwest like yourself before you leave this thread. It's the polite thing to do. 

Ogbuefi 1:

@Physics MHD,
1)I didnt get to your replies because of the spam box and I will be very happy if you send your response in bits so that I can get to read them and give my "propaganda" to it, At least that is your language and that is what you chose to believe.Like I always say human history is such that for certain reasons "history" which ought to be based on fact is often distorted to achieve some points often political in nature.Let me give an example, When Stalin was in power , history at least the one told in the Soviet Union is that he is a hero and defended the country against Nazi advance.But since the collapse of communist rule , what was history has been adjusted and Stalin is now defined as a tyrant by the Russian federation.That is history for you ! Nigeria today cannot without come out to tell the world her own history between 1966 to  1970 because there are a lot of  contentious issues.So can I say lets stick to our versions, But the fact remains that the Igbo cannot be cowed down just like and have imposed on them what Nigeria thinks is history  for the sake of "national unity", That one no go work.

1. I maintain that you are a propagandist. Your statement about some sort of allegation among "the Benins" against Zik was shameless and unsubstantiated.

2. Your misunderstanding of the Uniben VC tussle and your attempt to insinuate that Nwanze was VC before a Benin man because of some sort of lack or failing on the part of Binis was similarly shameless.

3. When I brought up that Chike Ekwuyasi had been elected on Otu Edo platform earlier, you claimed that this was because Otu Edo was allied with the NCNC, which shows a total misunderstanding of both my point and of political parties or it was a deliberate attempt at distortion. These sorts of distortions are what I would expect from a propagandist.

Early you made it seem as though I said a "special favor" was done toward the Anioma by electing Chike Ekwuyasi under Otu Edo. I never said a special favor was done toward the Anioma by having Chike Ekwuyasi elected under Otu Edo. I only pointed out the significance of this to your claim about the Binis and tribalism. You don't seem to understand how a political party works. A man or woman cannot declare that they are representing a political party, without the approval of those heading the party. It does not work like that anywhere in the world, and certainly not in Nigeria. Any such action is just a lawsuit waiting to happen. An NCNC man could not just claim to be representing Otu Edo.

There is no way and no how that the Binis would fail to notice that Chike Ekwuyasi is an Igbo man and if they are as tribalistic as you claim there is no way they would let a non Edo contest on Otu Edo platform and there is no way he would be elected after contesting. Or was Otu Edo founded and run by the NCNC? No. Otu Edo was founded and run by Binis, initially to oppose ogbonism. So the question is why they were liberal enough to embrace an Igbo man as a representative of their Edo based party! This is something you won't manage to circumvent with your skewed understanding of politics or your propaganda.



4. This honorable man (Chief Amechi) should give you just a hint into what the political orientation of Benin was with respect to Nnamdi Azikiwe:

"Oba Akenzua II deserves National Award
By MATTHEW OKAGHA



BENIN CITY- One of Nigeria’s foremost nationalists, Chief Mbazulike Amechi has frowned seriously at the failure of the Federal Government to bestow a posthumous national award on Oba Akenzua II in recognition of his contributions to the political liberation of the nation from the British colonialists.

Chief Amechi who bared his mind while speaking in his capacity as chairman of the triple celebration by the Esogban of Benin Kingdom, Chief D.U. Edebiri in Benin City at the weekend, stated unequivocally, that the late Benin Monarch was the only first class Chief in Nigeria then who was not afraid of the colonial powers, and openly identified himself with the nationalists struggle.

Chief Amechi, who is the Dara Akeunwafor Anambra, stated that Oba Akenzua II was popularly known as the father of the Zikist Movement and the father of the NCNC Youth Association.

He added that Oba Akenzua 11 identified with the youth, pointing out that whenever they were in trouble, the late Benin Monarch would rescue them, giving them money and even attended their meetings to address them.

He disclosed that Oba Akenzua II at a point, defied all odds and travelled from Benin to Onitsha to address a meeting of the NCNC Youth Association in 1952.

“Not any other Oba, Emir or Obi in Nigeria had the courage to do that, and he was a typical example of his ancestors who defied the English. The heroism is still there, and it still continues till now. The Benin Kingdom is known for heroism.

Benin Kingdom is known for patriotism, and Benin Kingdom is known for nationalism and I am happy that I was brought up here,” Chief Amechi stated in a chat with newsmen at the event.

Chief Amechi who disclosed that he has written a book titled, “The Forgotten Heroes of Nigeria’s Independence” noted that the national award bestowed on some Nigerians at the nation’s 50th Independence” Anniversary fell short of expectations, adding that the exclusion of notable Nigerians like Oba Akenzua II who risked their lives to extricate the nation from the grip of British colonialists, was one such surprises that characterised the award.

He noted that the incursion of the military into politics had interrupted the spirit of nationalism and patriotism in Nigeria, and as well disjointed the nation’s politics.

According to him, the nationalists went into politics because of what they could give to the country, and not because of what they could get from the country as it is the case today."


5. I also say that you're a propagandist because the truth is that the Binis are liberal rather than close-minded and their history supports this.

A simple example will suffice: Of the 31 Ogisos recorded in Benin history, two of them were female (Emore and Orrorio). What other group in Nigeria had female rulers so early in their history? The only other group I can think of with such an early phenomenon is the Ifes who had one female Ooni of Ife. I can't think of any other groups who had female rulers without going forward by several centuries. In fact, the only reason there were not even one female ruler in Benin during the second dynasty is because one princess (Edeleyo, Oba Ewuare's daughter) that should have taken over (when Olua, Oba Ewuare's second son had initially refused the throne), fell ill due to a womanly problem (medical ailment) and there was a rule established because of that incident that the rulers should be exclusively male. And yet even then, the second dynasty of Benin held women in high enough esteem that some women's charms or "spells" were considered important to actual warfare and the Oba's mother had a title and her own court - which even inspired some Anioma groups to adopt a similar tradition when they had no such practice before.

Another example: After Iyase n'Ode (the Iyase that had a dispute with the Oba of Benin that escalated into a full scale military conflict that ravaged the city) left the Benin court, the Oba attempted to replace him. We certainly know the man that he wanted to replace Ode as the Iyase - a man called Ogbomwan. According to the Bini historian, Osemwegie Ebohon, this man (Ogbomwan) was from Ogwashi-Uku (i.e. the Iyase chosen by Oba Akenzua I was a Delta Igbo). This is what Ebohon has recorded, and there's no reason to believe that it couldn't be the case as Ebohon would be damaging his credibility by making up his origin rather than collecting traditions. This occured in the 1700s. How many other groups had done something similar so early? We know that the present Iyase of Benin (Professor Sam Igbe) is Urhobo, but that is not the first instance where the Benin royalty has chosen a non-Bini over a Bini for a very esteemed position.



6. I'll repost my next replies in bits, but part of my reply has already appeared above on this page (p. 30).

2)The picture you sent is an interesting one, But the simple question was that occassion the only one Zik was present in Benin ? Because I know that he visited Benin so many times even up to the brink of the first coup in 1966.As such I dont understand what the said picture was supposed to have achieved.But it did reveal something else, the first principal of the Edo College Mr Moloku is an Anioma man and I just found it from the picture. Moloku (Molokwu ) is a name borne by Anioma people and relatives in Onitsha-Ogbaru.

1. When did I say that that was the only time Zik was present in Benin?

2. Until you and your source (the drunk) can tell us where and when Zik said he came back to the "land of his ancestors" in Benin and which "Benins" from where said that Zik's statement meant Igbos are trying to take over, it remains propaganda. I would be very interested in hearing how this fellow went around Benin and got the impression that "the Benins" were alleging some takeover which Zik was masterminding.

3. Of course Mr. Moloku was not an Edo man. There would not be an issue with Mr. Moloku being an Igbo man and there were many non-Binis who passed through that school (such as the first VC of Uniben, who was not Bini) and many non-Binis who were employed there. In the scholarship scheme recently established by Edo College, some of the scholarships are named after and funded by Igbos. In that Anglican church (Revd. Payne Memorial) in Benin City that was closed down and which was not founded by Igbos, the two primary languages were Edo and Igbo. I bet that if the first VC of Uniben had been Igbo/Anioma, there would also have been no complaints throughout the whole of the Midwest/Bendel. The only reason there was some complaint from the Binis over the VC thing is because there seemed to be some deliberate game of exclusion against Binis for no reason.

3)Clap! Clap!! Clap!!! Prof Emovon was VC of UNIJOS, Good Prof Emovon is an accomplished man   and a pride to the Benin people but we do have the likes of Prof Frank Ndili(VC UNN 1980-85) , I personally consider the attainment by Prof Ndili(Africa first Phd holder in Nuclear Physics) remarkable perhaps even more than Prof Emovon's because the UNN is a more prestigious instituion than UNIJOS and as such the position of the VC is usually a tougher one.Besides we also had Prof Chike Onwuachi the first Director General of the Nigerian Institute of International Affairs.I need not remind anyone that beyond Aniomaland, Igbos have produced the likes of Prof Onwuka Dike the first indigenous VC of UNIBADAN and Prof Eni Njoku the first VC of UNILAG both Universities being in Yorubaland.

1. So there was not an Anioma VC before Emovon? What were you guys doing with that educational head start?  Smh.

2. The first VC of UniJos was also Igbo, but he was not Anioma. But my point about Professor Emovon is that not only was he the first Nigerian Ph.D in chemistry (Physical Chemistry, 1959), despite coming from a small ethnic group, he was also a vice chancellor before any Anioma man or anybody from several other groups, some of them with larger populations, yet Binis were not claiming some sort of superiority or putting down any other groups.

3. So you need to use sub-fields of a discipline to state what the Anioma were first in? (because I know for a fact that Dr. Frank Ndili was not the first physics Ph.D. out of Nigeria). This despite your very real educational head start in Aniomaland? If I should follow your logic, then Professor G.O.S. Ekhaguere (one of the earliest (if not the first) Nigerian Ph.Ds in Mathematical Physics (as a specific sub-field of physics)) is more impressive than some other earlier Ph.Ds because of the specific area of his Ph.D. I could even buttress such a weak argument by the fact that mathematical physics is one of the "rarer" areas of specialization in physics in the sense that many more physicists are condensed matter/solid state physicists or in other areas of physics and this has been the case for a while. Regardless, this argument doesn't hold. Kudos to Dr. Ndili, but I don't see it as more impressive just because of the area the Ph.D is in.


Regarding Dr. Frank Ndili being the first nuclear physicist (1965) from black Africa, although I believe it, I would still be a little more cautious with that claim. It was rightfully believed by Nigerians that Chike Obi was the first sub saharan African to get a Ph.D. in mathematics because there was no evidence of anyone earlier, but then some Ghanians produced a claim that a Ghanian, A. M. Taylor, got a Ph.D in mathematics from Oxford in 1947. While I have not seen any concrete evidence to buttress that claim, I certainly do not think that the Ghanians would lie and make up a person and a date for such a claim. Also, Nigerians could easily claim that the first black African Ph.D in chemistry (or, if not all of chemistry, then just physical chemistry), was Dr. Emovon, but Nigerians have not done so out of cautiousness. I am sure that Alexander Animalu (Igbo, but not Anioma) is the first sub saharan African Ph.D in solid state physics, and Abel Guobadia (Bini) was the second in solid state physics, but I think Nigerians have not yet claimed to have produced the first overall physics Ph.D in all of black Africa out of cautiousness. In the same way, a Yoruba man was the first Nigerian Ph.D in computer science (1971) but I doubt that anyone knows for sure that Nigeria actually produced the first black African Ph.D in computer science or that anyone has claimed that a Yoruba produced the first African Ph.D in computer science.

4. If you want to compare Dr. Frank Ndili's area of his Ph.D (Nuclear Physics) with Dr. Emovon's area (Physical Chemistry) then I should retort that Professor Sunday Iyahen was one of the first Nigerians to get a mathematics Ph.D.  for research in a really abstract area of mathematics. Of course, all pure math is abstract, but there are differences: differential equations would not be very high on the ladder of abstraction, for example (I am not talking about "difficulty", just for the record).  Also, Dr. Iyahen was one of the earliest Nigerians in any of the (pure, not applied) mathematical sciences to introduce any new concept in a scientific area (with his results on topological spaces) and Also, Dr. Iyahen was one of the earliest Nigerians in any of the (pure, not applied) mathematical sciences to introduce any new concept in a scientific area (with his results on certain types of topological spaces: countably ultrabarrelled and countably quasiultrabarrelled spaces, ultrabornological spaces, etc.) and that is probably why he was at one point director of the Nigerian Mathematical Centre in Abuja soon after it first started, when many other ethnic groups in the nation could have been there before a Bini.


I should also point out that of the (only) three Nigerian academics who have the D.Sc degree (as claimed by this poster in this thread: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-264280.0.html), not as their first doctorate, but as a higher degree than a Ph.D,  Dr. Iyahen is one of the these few Nigerians to have a D.Sc (1987) after already completing a Ph.D (1967). With the educational head start of the Anioma, I would have expected an Anioma man to earn that degree first, but Jerome Nriagu (who got his honorary D.Sc in the same year as Dr. Iyahen) is from Anambra and the other Professor (Okezie Aruoma) could be Anioma or he could be from elsewhere (I'm not really certain), but he got his DSc after Dr. Iyahen regardless of where he's from. I also would not expect that a Bini, and with a math doctorate from research in such an abstract area (topology), would be among that small group of Nigerians with a D.Sc as a higher degree if I believed even for a second that Binis were academically deficient to produce a VC.


5. Being Igbo, accomplished and being appointed VC of UNN is a greater achievement than being from a group (Bini) which was and is only 1/50th of Nigeria's population (if you actually believe that Nigeria's population is now nearly 150 million and you assume the Binis are nearly 3 million) and is vastly outnumbered  by other groups - several of which have equally high drive for educational attainment - and then managing to become VC of a university in the Middle Belt as early as 1978? I doubt that. If anything, it's the other way around.

6. Regarding Dr, Chike Onwuachi, that's good, but it's a bit tangential to my specific grouse against your mention of university VCs. I could bring up the fact that the first president of the Nigerian Society of Engineers was G.O. Aiwerioba (another Bini), but it would be completely tangential to my point. If I wanted to go off on a tangent, I could talk about people like Osagie Imasogie, Professor Osato Giwa Osagie, Osaze Osifo, and many others, but I am not here to produce a list of Bini achievers as I would necessarily be handicapped in producing such a list by the fact that I am a) much younger and b) somewhat out of the loop and c) not really interested in engaging Binis in the useless bragging competitions that Igbos and Yorubas on this website (nairaland) frequently engage in. So I am not going to segue into any real name dropping competition. I only brought up Dr. Emovon because any claim or insinuation of academic deficiency against Binis would have to be measured against the reality of the fact that he got a Ph.D at such an early time, and in a fundamental subject (chemistry) before anybody else from any other group.

7. Your other statements about Prof Dike and Prof Njoku would be more relevant in a debate about academic achievement between the Igbo and a group of equally large size. In all honesty those two areas (history and botany) are not sufficiently challenging/difficult (in my opinion, but probably also to most other people studying the "hard" sciences) to the point where anyone could even make insinuations about any academic superiority by producing Ph.Ds in those areas before another group. I would only chalk that up to a population advantage. It's obviously not the case that a group which is one-tenth of the size of another group will produce as many academics so there are just more people to draw on. And like I said earlier, the Binis were initially behind in education in the colonial era, so it's surprising that Emovon was such an early Ph.D to begin with and that you have not listed anyone from Anioma who was the first in a whole academic field (not a sub-field) despite their educational head start of many years. I'm sure if you dig deep enough you can find someone, but it's surprising that you would have to do so despite your perspective on some sort of superiority in achievements. It's also quite telling that a Bini man beat any Anioma man to earn two doctorates in the mathematical sciences (Dr. Iyahen) and is the first Nigerian to earn a D.Sc (as a higher doctorate than a Ph.D) in any of the mathematical sciences.

I am not privy to compare whatever publication by Prof Osagie and Prof Nwanze and make comparisons between them and I dont think you have either.I am therefore challenging you to provide the source of the claim that Prof Osagie is a more accomplished scholar.Perhaps he is outstanding to the Benin people considering the late entry to the British created educational arrangement( let me use your language).

1. Regarding Dr. Athony Osagie: "Outstanding"? I didn't go that far. Unfortunately, there are really only a limited number scholars out of Nigeria that can truly be called outstanding in their field (in all honesty). In his specific area of his field, he is important, but about his standing in biochemistry in general, I did not make any particular claim as I am not knowledgeable enough about biochemistry to make any particular claim. What I said was that it is a fact that he has many more publications and citations than Professor Nwanze, but I am not claiming that appointments are made based on that fact alone. I know that there are other factors involved, such as seniority, contributions to the university, etc. My point is that on an academic basis they are not on the same tier and that is why Professor Osagie is a former head of the biochemistry department and a past president of Nigeria's biochemistry society, while Dr. Nwanze, who is also a biochemist, is a past president of no such organization. Consequently one cannot claim that Osagie was academically deficient or inferior for the position, just as one cannot claim that he did not have seniority (which he did and he was even a founding faculty member of Uniben).


For the source of publications and citations there are multiple websites one can use:

a) ISI Web of Knowledge (Thomson Reuters) <---- not easily accessible, need a subscription to properly use it

b) Google scholar <---- easily useable, a simple search for "A Osagie" and "E Nwanze" should answer your question

c) Scopus <---- need to register

4)The first primary school in Benin was founded in 1900; just a year older than the first primary school founded in Igbodo my home town(c. 1901).The claim that this school in Benin is unfounded and yet one of your lies I am exposing a usual.The first school of such if I should give it such a title was founded in Aboh in 1841 during the reign of Obi Ossai(c 1826-44).This was the year Christainity first came to Igboland and was introduced by Bishop Crowther and Silas Jonah(a native speaker of Igbo) both of them were ex slaves.It was following the death of Obi Ossai in 1844 that forced the Mission to relocate to Onitsha in 1856 where it survived.Unlike the Aboh mission that was unsustainable, the mission and schools in Onitsha expanded and schools were introduced in Asaba in 1875 first by the CMS mission and a year later by the Catholic Mission.Therefore we have had schools for a qtr of a century before it got to Benin.

Ha ha ha, once again the "lie" you exposed was due to a simple error of omission. You got lucky there. I was actually the one who posted a book link in an earlier post which even said how slaves in the Delta Igbo area in the late 1800s (before 1900) were the most enthusiastic about embracing Western education to save them from the abuses and sacrifices that they had been subjected to by their chiefs and owners. So I was not unaware of missionary schools as I had read that even before this came up, but this question of why they had schools (missionary schools) a quarter of a century earlier, but didn't beat the Binis so hands down educationally is very interesting. Those UN reports on Nigeria that you love so much consistently put Edo state ahead of Delta state with regard to "educational index" (I'm not saying that this statistic is in any way reliable, but you seem to think these reports are truly accurate).

5) So if the St Thomas College Ibusa was not a secondary School , What was it then ? Because the school still exists in the town and it is a secondary school(the teacher training facilities have been converted to the present Federal Girls College in the town).The Anioma people contributed a lot to propagate the Catholic faith and education in the Midwest region and beyond.I wont be suprised if the said Mr Molokwu did not pass via the college.The first indigenous Catholic Bishop within the Midwest Bishop Nwaezeapu of Warri a native of that town is an example of what the Anioma people gave back to the Mission.You cannot say that the Kings College in Lagos is older than CMS Bariga both are secondary schools except you want to interpret your understanding of secondary schools to mean Govt secondary schools which has never been the case.I will also like to add that the first skills acquisition centre in the Midwest was established in Asaba in 1898.This was the Rural training Institute which has metamorphosized into the present Asaba campus of DELSU(after many years as College of Agriculture).If I were as desparate like you to prove a point I would have I would have claimed that this institution was the oldest secondary school in the Midwest and I can back it up with reasonable points( or propaganda as you think) to back it up.

1. Where did I say the Ibusa teachers training college was not a secondary school? I know what "college" means in Nigeria and what it refers to. Don't misquote me.

2. I'm pretty sure that some Itsekiri embraced Catholicism, long before Bishop Nwaezeapu, though they probably didn't think they could have produced a Bishop in the 1600s (and they probably couldn't have), so there was no way the Itsekiri (who were small in terms of population) could have competed with other groups once it was possible for other groups to embrace it. I still don't think most Binis are Catholic (just from my experiences) so we don't really enter into that whole Catholic thing. Yes the Catholics really helped you guys. A lot. And I mean a lot. And in case you don't get it, I mean a LOT. There's no disagreement on my part here.


3. When did I say Kings College, Lagos is older than some other school (CMS Bariga, in your example)? I don't even care. I said "like Kings College" to point out that Oba Eweka II not only initiated the request for a school, but that he had standards for the school, because of the school his son had attended.

4. Ha ha ha, Skills acquisition center as a secondary school? This is funny. Okay, well in 1898, there could not have been a skills acquisition center in a place (Benin) where nobody really spoke any English and when there were still rebel Bini chiefs nearby. If you want to claim anything and everything is a secondary school now, it's your cup of tea. I wouldn't even get into such a silly argument.

6)I wonder the fuss ver the flogging of the Iyoba, This is our own version of what happened.To you it sounds silly but to me it is a part of our history.After all , your Egharevba told the world in his controversial publication that the Obis of Agbor and Ubulu Uku were beheaded just to uphold the "glory" of the Benin empire eventhough such stories donot even exist amongst our people.Even the great Zik whose Edo ancestrythe Benin's are proud of (let me use your language) was more diplomatic in his account in his book My Odyssey published after the war.He said and quote me that the Kings mother ie the Iyoba was "assaulted" for trampling over the farmlands of Eze Chime.I will advice you go read the book.

On the Iyoba fable, ha ha ha, don't worry. I'll analyze that Iyoba story thoroughly after I comment on that Agboghidi story. I've already spotted errors in the Iyoba story. As for this or that king being beheaded, Egharevba also said that Oba Ohen, a weak and bad king of Benin, was killed by the Benin people for his crimes. It was the same Chief Jacob Egharevba who said that Oba Obanosa, originally a very wise king (a "Godly king" - the source of his coronation name) had petty disputes with rivals that led to his downfall. The same Jacob Egharevba is the primary source for the fact the Igala military severly tested Benin's might. The same Jacob Egharevba wrote these things and you're here telling me that Egharevba had too much pride to record history without elevating the prestige of Benin! And you were accusing me of selective use of sources. Hilarious. And accusing Jacob Egharevba of "excessive" Benin pride really is one of the most ludicrous things I have seen on this thread. Egharevba was proud of his heritage, but "excessive"? That's just unwarranted.

Some very cool videos I came across:

BBC~ Lost Kingdom of Benin (Nigeria) 1 of 3


[flash=600,600]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkTzfUatErU&feature=related[/flash]



BBC~ Lost Kingdom of Benin (Nigeria) 2 of 3


[flash=600,600]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoclFMJvkQA&feature=related[/flash]



This is the third part. It's not actually about Benin, but it's still interesting:

BBC~ Lost Kingdom of Benin (Nigeria) 3 of 3

[flash=600,600]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1x0QA_rpF2Q&feature=related[/flash]


^^^^
This is an interview, rather than a video, although some pictures are shown, It's an interview with Dr. Patrick Darling where he talks about the huge wall complex that he discovered, Sungbo's Eredo, which is linked to the ancient Ijebu kingdom.

Ogbuefi 1: @Physics MHD,

1)On a different court for Ozanogogo does not translate to a different clan nor transfer to Benin kingdom, I will therefore advice you read the remarks without any bias.One of the reasons given by the Ozas was language and distance and this was justified and even supported by many Agbor who simultaneously recommended that such courts should as well be established in the peripheral towns such as Oza, Emuhu and Oki.I was challenge you to provide one single document when all Oza people were together under one Akugbe native authority(not district) of Benin.It was never the case.Igbanke along with other Ika clans were even part of the old Benin district ( except you are saying that all Ika clans should be transferred back to Benin).Who ever gave that account does not even know what he is saying.
Now on the issue of Ikaworld.com, let me put it this way, The claim that the Ika(Anioma) market days are different from Edo market days is wrong and I think the author of that account got it all wrong.The Anioma and Edo people call the market days similarly and ascribe to them different purposes which as well shows some similarities.The author of that may not personally understand why Ozarra came to be where they are at present.Or I would say he would want Ika land to be described as a homogenous unit but this has never been the situation in Aniomaland.Our people are of diversed origin and in some other clans like Ebu and Ugbodu we still hear some other dialects such as Yoruba and Igala.What however unites us is our history , customs/civilization  and identity.There are of course a few voices of dissent but I bet you if a referendum is conducted in Ozarra today, most would want to remain in Agbor and those who would want to join Benin will do so because they want to identify with their Oza Aibiokunla kith and kin and not because they see their lands as part of the domain of the Oba nor do they wholly identify themselves as mainstream Benin People.
If I should follow , your line of arguement then I will be like many Anioma people be willing to give up Ozarra in replacement of Igbanke, and other Ika communities in Beninlands like Iru, Igbogiri and Owa Iriuzor(renamed Evbo Obanosa).

1. "Transfer to Benin Kingdom"?

I have seen their personal names, the names of the different quarters of Oza nogogo, the names for priests, the names of people in their history, etc. and it is all Bini. All of it. I'm willing to bet that if I heard them speaking I would hear mostly Edo (though obviously somewhat different), with some Igbo spliced in here and there. Now, who is talking about a transfer to Benin kingdom? Some Bini places like Egor have traditional rulers that claim to be their own kingdoms and not truly under the Oba of Benin, so how does me stating that the Oza-nogogo are Edo, and not Ika, and are only under Agbor through colonial poltics equate to claiming that they should be "transferred to Benin kingdom"? I said that going by your argument in this thread that Igbanke should be transferred to Anioma and that they are being held against their will chiefly through the moves of the Benin Palace, then they (Oza nogogo) should be in Edo state because they are in fact an Edo group, no matter how many Oza nogogo titles you try to connect to Agbor.You keep talking about the "domain of the Oba" and "mainstream" Benin people, but that's not even connected to this discussion, and you have yet to explain why the domain of the Agbor kingdom should extend into Oza nogogo when the Ika people of Agbor and the Edo people of Oza nogogo are ethnically different even though that is your entire argument for your accusation against the Benin palace not being able to claim the Igbanke as being Edo.


2. You talk about voting to stay under Agbor kingdom, but I have provided at least two sources, in an earlier post in which actual people from Oza nogogo listed specific grievances that they had against their neighbors and the way they feel that they have been treated all those years. I asked for clarification from anybody about whether these claims of marginalization were in any way reasonable, but you dodged that question like a trained politician although you clearly read that post. Nobody has been able to answer whether the accusations of some Oza nogogo people about marginalization are indeed true, despite all the time that has elapsed since I first posted that claim. Meanwhile, all this time people were talking about deliberate marginalization of Igbanke or Ekpon without ever stating what they thought this marginalization really was. Maybe instead of claiming that the Oza nogogo people are so naturally desirous to be under Agbor kingdom, you should tell your leaders, elected officials, government, etc., to refute those accusations that are incorrect and to meet the needs of their community and address those accusations that are correct. The best you could do was to claim that they want some minerals, yet there was no complaint about resource control from them, rather they were concerned about development in their community. There are not that many Oza nogogo websites online, nor are there many books or articles about this group. If in every statement, one reads some sort of grumbling against their Ika neighbors over alleged marginalization, then how am I supposed to believe this claim about some sort of overwhelming desire to be part of Agbor?


3. As for ikaworld.com I do not care about any comments about market days. I know that the Edo market days and the Igbo market days are the same. I posted that to show that even other Ika people were reasonable enough to see that a group that shows such clear signs of "Bininess" are of Edo origin without engaging in irrelevant claims about some Ogisi title (which even sounds like it has an Edoid origin, by the way, but that's another topic entirely). My point is that some of your own people are not necessarily agreeing with you, perhaps because they are not expansionists.

4. Why do you insist on calling Oza nogogo by the name Ozarra?

5. What is all this talk about heterogeneity?

Your very argument hinges on the claim that the ethnic difference between Igbanke and Binis means that Igbanke should not be part of Benin kingdom but should be with their kith and kin!

Meanwhile you somehow don't see why the Oza nogogo people should not be under Agbor, which is not composed of their kith and kin.


6. I am following your line of argument, by the way. It's just that you seem unwilling (for whatever reason) to extend your reasoning to its logical conclusion - that every Edo speaking community (not just Oza nogogo) in Anioma should be "transferred" to Edo state. You also mentioned the Edo speaking community of Alilehan in one of you posts that did not show and you claimed that "Ali" was an Igbo prefix meaning "land of". Yet you could not translate the rest. Why is that? Maybe because the name is like Greek to you? For the record "Ala" rather than "Ali" seems to be the Igbo prefix meaning "land of" and Alilehan is undoubtedly Edo. Alile is an Edo word for a very strong cord found in the forest that cannot be cut - that is the literal meaning but the real meaning is a person (or community, in this instance) with very strong character. But I think that name (Alilehan) matches up better and more perfectly with the Bini name Aileleihan, meaning one who refuses to take the wrong way. It's a shame that you want to claim these communities for the Ika but you and other Ika are completely confused by even their names. Yes I would have no problem with doing an exchange of communities if it would stop all this propaganda but I know that that is not necessarily feasible.


7. I did not continue that Ekpon debate with you after my response didn't show up, but for the record, I have looked around and Esan people are still definitely claiming Ekpon in every publication from Esan people that lists the Esan subgroups.

I have to ask, do Esan people have any idea what Ika culture is, social aspects or otherwise, for them to be able to tell that this is a separate group, not a subgroup of their people?

The truth is that from sources that I have read, the Esan considered Ekpon to be just another branch of the Esan, so if this makes them expansionists, then they've been misled by the cultural adoption frmo that group (Ekpon). It does not mean that they're trying to steal Ekpon from a group whose culture they are not experts on.

They would assume the Ekpon were Esan for the exact same reasons that you can tell that they aren't Esan but rather Ika:  language and culture.

This is an interesting post on some Ekpon man (who, for whatever reason, called himself Idemudia) and because of how he had presented himself, even an Igbo man (Chxta) originally thought he was Bini! :

http://chxta..com/2009/02/death-of-language.html


You say "the old Esan dialect is practically dead" (and that article written by that Ekpon guy in that link above confirms this claim) and that "Ekpon has become more Ikanized"

How on earth is it the fault of the Esan if they considered a language (the old Ekpon language that is near death) that could be considered a dialect of Esan to be evidence that these people (Ekpon) were an Esan speaking people?!!

Or were the Esan supposed to identify every cultural and linguistic aspect of Ekpon that was different as Ika (a culture and language they are not experts on), when, even within Esan, there are different dialects?

Any sort of propaganda that leads to some conclusion like "the Esan are oppressive expansionists" needs to be reworked immediately.

If these people are serious about being Igbo, they will just learn Igbo (real Igbo), stop using Edo or Esan words, customs, names, etc. and nobody will confuse them with anybody else. You cannot be in limbo between two ethnic groups, culturally and then declare that you are really only based in one group.


Also, this same dispute exists in Rivers state with some group that is considered by some Ijaws to be a group of Ijaw people with Igbo influence being called Igbo by Igbos, because of such enormously prevalent signs of Igbo culture and language among them. So the case of Edos identifying people with Edo culture as Edo is not unique to so called Bini or Esan expansionists. Whether those groups in Rivers state are Ijaw with Igbo influence or Igbo with Ijaw influence is a whole other issue (it seems that they're a basically a real ethinc mix, from what I've read), but either the Igbo or the Ijaw would be engaged in "annexation" attempts according to you, just because they rightly see elements of their own language and culture in those groups.

Ogbuefi 1: As far I am concerned this claim is no different from the baseless claims Benins are making on Ijaw teritories in the Ovia area which led to the faceoff by the Oba and the Alli administration in 1983.

I left off answering this Ijaw claim earlier, because I really don't have enough time to delve really deeply into this issue. But I will respond to your earlier claim now.

You said:

3) I have read the case between the Ijaws of Gelegele and Benins of Ughoton on what is called Gelegele land in the courts.Where are the Benin occupiers of Gelegele ? Because it is clearly an Ijaw settlemnt and the issue in court was the ownership of the land on which the settlement was founded and not on those who reside there ? In the lower courts the Ijaws won until they got to the court of Appeal and Supreme Court when decision went in favour of the Benin.The Ijaws said that the decisions were manipulated because one of the judges (a native of Benin convinced his colleagues to make decision to favour his people).Yet dispite this victory, is Gelegele the only Ijaw town in Edo state ? Have the Benin gone to court to prove if those villages are actually theirs ? In a display of the expansionist nature of Benin traditional leadership, they got the area named OBAYANTOR and appointed Prince Edun Akenzua , the "Enogie of Obayantor" .The said Obayantor distinct from the one we know along Sapele road was extended to include all Ijaw villages besides Gelegele.These include Ofunama, Ikoro, Safarogbo, Ajakurama. Nikorogha, Jamagie, Okomu and several others covering 3 wards in Ova SW and Oduna ward In Ovia NE.Yet until recently , there were not even treated as natives of Edo State until recently.

1. There are Binis in Gelegele. It has never ever been an entirely Ijaw area. In fact, there have always been Bini odionweres in Gelegele. If some Ijaws claim it was an Ijaw settlement, let them tell us when they founded it and also tell us when the Binis got there. It is interesting to note that no Ijaw historian has ever recorded any Ijaw oral history about Gelegele, despite there being oral histories for the other settlements and villages of the Olodiama clan and Egbema clan of the Ijaws.

2. Gelegele was actually called called Gelegelegbini/Gelegelegbene by the Ijaw (see Izon of the Niger Delta, chapter 18, by Alagoa, Kowei, etc.)). "Bini" is the Ijaw word for water. If they founded it, why did they need to qualify it, with the fact that they were referring to only the part of it that was relevant to them? They got there later and named the part that was relevant to them.


3. Gelegele was even originally under the management of the Ezomo of Benin:

"THE OBA'S central province was bound by the rivers

OYISA, OKWO, OVIA, OLUKUN, AWREHOMO, and IKPOBA. From the city through this province to six outlying districts or provinces, six great roads led, and these roads and districts were under the following chiefs:-

Gilly-Gilly under Ezomo.

Udo under OLIHA.

Shelu under ERO.

Geduma under OGIFA.

Sapoba under CIGIAML

Sapelli under ELEMA.

The neutral (or ambassador's province) under ELAUWEY was bounded by the rivers OFUSU, OHA, and upper OVIA or OSSE, with its capital at OKENUE or OKELUSE. When they reached this place ELAUWEY told Bini to go on to OGIFA'S place and that he would follow in five days (but he stayed there and formed the province as a kind of buffer province between the Yoruba and Bini Kingdoms)." - At the Back of the Black Man's Mind, CHAPTER XVIII, BENIN DISTRICTS,  by Richard Edward Dennett, [1906]

("CIGIAML" is erroneous and should read OGIAME (Ogiamien), for the record; there are a few other spelling errors (such as that of the Elawure of Usen, which he calls "Elauwey", but it is clear, to those who are not neophytes, who the people are that are being referred to here are.)
.
Of course, some people would have us believe that the Benin kingdom arbitrarily named one of the major roads, and the major province of the kingdom that it led to (from the capital), after one small  Ijaw village.

Now the Ijaws that moved there did not make a new name for it, just as they have not for Siluko, or Okomu, so I would be very interested in hearing how they can be the founders of that place.

Of course now some people will say that the "Amaokusuwei" of Gelegele, is the Ijaw ruler of the area when this is a modern thing. Amaokusuwei or Amakosuwai is just the oldest man of an Ijaw village (http://www.newswatchngr.com/editorial/prime/nigeria/11028134409.htm) and is no higher than an odionwere. There was never any Ijaw ruler of the area. Historically, the entire area was under a war chief of Benin and he was a subject of the Oba of Benin. The presence of Ijaws there does not mean that an Amaokusuwei or an unheard of Pere should emerge suddenly claiming that their settlement on the Ezomo's province is an Ijaw kingdom.

Now if I had found out that Gelegele was Biniland from a simple search, would the Palace not have already known that this area was Biniland?

http://allafrica.com/stories/200607170612.html

http://odili.net/news/source/2011/may/3/301.html

^^^^^
The characterization of it as an attempted "takeover" is accurate, in my opinion.



4. The issue is not so much whether the entire area is majority Ijaw or majority Bini. The issue is whether a group can establish a new, unheard-of kingdom in a village in that area, right in the face of the Binis there simply because of their numbers. One of the reasons that this is an issue is that the Binis know that if the claims are not nipped in the bud, tommorrow a few Ijaws will actually be shouting that Gelegele is ancient Ijawland, when it is not - there are are traditions of Ijaw migration to areas in Edo state during or right before the 17th century for some Ijaw villages in Edo state, but there is nothing to suggest any Ijaw founding of Gelegele (to them, Gelegelebini).

With regard to founding Ijaw kingdoms where none existed, and elevating the Pere of a small village to the status of a king, or claiming that separate villages are suddenly part of some unheard of kingdom after the Benin kingdom has been more or less manacled by colonization, I would say that this is a classic case of taking a mile after being given an inch.


5. Let us look at what actual Ijaw historians (not politicians) have to say on Ijaw migrations to places which some of them are claiming to be indigenous to. While today some politicians will state that they have been there for eight centuries


On the Egbema clan:

"The Egbema people are the most likely Ijo sub-group to which the allegation of Ijo piracy on the Benin River could have been made. The only other sub-group with access to the Benin River are the Gbaramatu. Egbema traditions, in fact, give indirect evidence of their predatory activities in
the region of the Benin River. While they refer to the Oba of Benin as Ugbo
Pere (Lord of the Lands), the priest king of Egbema was Bini Pere (Lord of the Waters)." -E. J. Alagoa, E. A. Kowei, B. J. Owei and J. B. Dunu, The Izon of the Niger Delta, Chapter 18 - THE WESTERN DELTA LIMIT


Now let's stop and look at this honestly. Was the priest king of the Egbema comparable in stature to the Oba of Benin? No. We know that the Binis regarded the large waters as sacred and as the passage to the spirit world, so of course they would not become a marine empire, but it is very telling that even the Egbema traditions do not claim that the Ijaw mariners were lords of any lands in the Edo area.



On the city of Ikoro:

"Chronology

The genealogy of the informant going back to the founding ancestor, Perezigha, offers some basis for an estimate of Olodiama settlement in their present location. Calculating at thirty years to a generation, it would appear that Perezigha and his group arrived in the area late in the seventeenth century.

Benin traditions suggest, however, that Ikoro had been founded in or before the sixteenth century. It is related how Oba Orhogbua (c.1550-78) had stopped at Ikoro, on his way home from a campaign in Lagos, to enquire about rumours of a revolt in Benin while he was away (Egharevba 1960:30)." - E. J. Alagoa, E. A. Kowei, B. J. Owei and J. B. Dunu, The Izon of the Niger Delta, Chapter 18 - THE WESTERN DELTA LIMIT, p. 418




6.Are you actually telling me that if a Yoruba, Igala, Idoma, or Jukun group migrates to some other state and happens to take up residence somewhere like a creek or hard to reach swamp, they can elevate their village chief or elder to a traditional ruler of a kingdom a century or more later, and, with a few settlements, demand 4 LGAs in the state? Answer honestly.


7. You did not mention this, but I might as well note, before anyone else brings this up, that this is not about oil. It should be noted that there is actually much much more oil in the areas of Edo state where there is no trace of an Ijaw presence, than in the areas where there are any Ijaws. It is merely that what is being tapped is from certain areas right now. So the Binis could not be accused of fighting for oil as some people (not you) have already insinuated.  If anything, it seems like some Ijaws (particularly those at Gele Gele) are fighting for control of oil or other resources at areas where it is doubtful that they are truly indigenous. We have already read the reports on attacks and kidnapping against oil companies there.


8. First - The claims about what happened in the court room are unsubstantiated. The claim about somebody saying that the Oba of Benin owns all the land up to the territory of the white man is unsubstantiated and they have yet to say who (a name) said this. They just mention that some unnamed Bini person in the courtroom said this, but they weren't naive enough to specifically say that anybody who was relevant to deciding the case said this, because they know that the names of the judges can be found out.

Second - the Binis won in multiple higher courts, so are they claiming there was a Bini judge at each court? Let them prove it then. The names of the judges in those cases are not kept from the public record.

Third - And just how did this allegedly Bini judge convince all the other judges? Money? Or by repeating some Bini saying (about the Oba of Benin owning so much land) that other ethnic groups would not necessarily be familiar with or might not care about?

Fourth - What specifically is being alleged here and about which man or woman (what's the name of the so called Bini judge?) Why do the people pushing those claims about Gelegele - a place thatwas not Ijaw founded - think they can refute a Supreme Court ruling with vague allegations?

9. Prince Edun Akenzua is not the Enogie of Obayanto. Prince Uyiekpen Akenzua is the Enogie of Obayantor. That Obayantor move seemed like consolidation of territory, brought about entirely by the overreaching nature of some of the Ijaw claims. Some Ijaws take an extreme stance. Annoyed Binis take an extreme stance to counter it.  If the Benin palace was so interested in expansion, this could have been done much earlier than it was. Clearly, some Ijaws forced their hand.

I'm no insider, but the moves taken by the palace seem like counter consolidation. An odionwere is not a high ranking chief, but a community's head elder, so the presence of a Bini odionwere will be brushed aside by those attempting to claim to be the traditional ruler of an area that they are not. Consequently, someone of a higher rank would need to be installed to checkmate the unfounded claims about an Ijaw kingdom in the area. This is the obvious rationale for the moves made by the Benin palace.

10. While I still feel (personally) that they should not be under a Benin chief, I have to point out that there is nothing like a real Ijaw "area" in Edo state. Rather, there are some separate Ijaw villages interspersed in between Edo villages in certain areas. This reality precludes carving away some area into an LGA, and it is the reason for all this dispute. It's an either-or situation. Either the Binis lose land, or the Ijaws lose their claim to LGA.

Let's look at some of the areas they are claiming:

"Meanwhile, Journalists for Niger Delta (JODEL), a media group concerned with the
affairs of the oil and gas region, who are on  tour with the presidential panel reports
that the area the militants are demanding for the four council areas for the Ijaw people
comprises a network of creeks with swamp forests with intermittent land areas in
Okomu, Ofunama, Ajakurama, Gelegele, Opuama /Polobobar, Ogbinbiri / Ogbudugbudu,
and Safarogbo forest areas."

http://akanimosam..com/2010/02/give-us-new-councils-in-delta-edo-by.html

Some people are claiming the creek and swamp areas and then demanding that these portions of other LGAs become new LGAs:

"According to him, ''we are pressing our people's governor, Adams Oshiomhole to make a case for us at Abuja, why a minimum of five local government areas should be created for us. The five council areas we are asking for are: Egbema North-East with headquarters at Ofunama, Egbema North-West with Ajakurama as its headquarters, Olodiama with headquarters at Inikorogha, Okomu/ Safarogbo with headquarters at Okomu, and Furupagha with Jide as its headquarters''.


Our correspondent who was in the area to cover the historic visit by Governor Oshiomhole, however, reports that there are no motorable roads linking the largely riverine Ijaw communities with the rest of Edo state."

http://www.pointblanknews.com/os1377.html


Now let's look through the two LGAs of Edo state where Ijaws are found:

"OVIA SOUTH WEST LOCAL GOVERNMENT 1073. IGUOBA- 1074. ZUWA 1075. Abozumamwen 1076. Ago-Okunzuwa 1077. Aifesoba 1078. Evboba 1079. Iguatakpa 1080. Iguobazuwa 1081. Iguogun 1082. Isokponba 1083. Obaretin 1084. Okokpon 1085. Okoro 1086. ORA 1087. Ameienghowan 1088. Evbuogun 1089. Iguiyase 1090. Iguoriakhi 1091. Iguoriakhi Upland 1092. Iguoriakhi Water Side 1093. Ikpoba 1094. Osse 1095. UDO 1096. Eko-Eyuyu 1097. Etete 1098. Iguafole 1099. Igueze 1100. Iguokolor 1101. Iguowan 1102. Okomu Oil 1103. Okosa 1104. Udo 1105. Udo-Aken 1106. Ugolo 1107. Urhezen 1108. UMAZA 1109. Akpororo Camp 1110. Essi 1111. Iguekahen 1112. Iguelaho 1113. Lakalolo 1114. Obobaifo 1115. Ogunwake 1116. Camps 1117. Ojomu 1118. Sayo 1119. Ugbokua 1120. Umaza 1121. SILUKO 1122. Gbelebu 1123. Gbelemonten Water Side 1124. Gebelemonten Upland 1125. Iguagbado 1126. Jide Inland 1127. Jide Upland 1128. Kale Camp 1129. Kehide Camp 1130. Lawson Camp 1131. Madagbayo 1132. Madoti 1133. Ofineyege 1134. Okadeye 1135. Okomu-Ijaw 1136. Okua 1137. Saforogbo 1138. Ubayaki 1139. Ugbe-Sango 1140. Ugbokua 1141. UGBOGUE 1142. Adebayo Camp 1143. Aden 1144. Agbonokhua (Ikale Camp) 1145. Akrakuan 1146. Ekuremu Camp 1147. Evbonogbon 1148. Iguobanor 1149. Ikoha 1150. Jamijie 1151. Nikrowa 1152. Ofunmwengbe 1153. Okponha 1154. Osa Village 1155. Osedere 1156. Sakazioo 1157. Sule Camp 1158. Ugbo 1159. Ugbogui I 1160. USEN 1161. Aideyanba 1162. Iguedo 1163. Leleji 1164. Obomen Camp 1165. Ofaran Camp 1166. Ogidigbo 1167. Ogunmwenyin 1168. Okha 1169. Okhue Camp 1170. Okoro I 1171. Oladaro 1172. Olorin 1173. Usen 1174. NIKORO-GHA 1175. Adegayo Camp 1176. Ekuremu Camp 1177. Ikoha 1178. Sule Camp 1179. OFUNAMA 1180. Abere 1181. Ajakurama 1182. Ajatitition 1183. Binidogha 1184. Ekogben W.N. 1185. Gbelekanga 1186. Gbeoba 1187. Gbolowosho 1188. Isabemwen 1189. Itagbene 1190. Lagos Junction 1191. Ofunama 1192. Saleria 1193. Turukubu W.N. 1194. Zion. "


"OVIA NORTH-EAST LOCAL GOVERNMENT 949. OKADA 950. Abrifor Camp 951. Egbeteti 952. Egboha 953. Ekenomeghele 954. Guobadia Camp 955. Half Way 956. Igbogo 957. Igueze 958. Igunye 959. Iguobo 960. Iguomo 961. Isiuwa 962. Iyanomo 963. Iyeta 964. Ofumwgbe Camp 965. Oghobahon 966. Okoro 967. Omamini Camp 968. Oseminota Camp 969. Oyibo Camp 970. Ugbodun 971. Ugbokun 972. Ulakpa 973. UHEN 974. Aghanokpe 975. Egbeta 976. Egekpanu 977. Gberao 978. Ogbese 979. Okeodo 980. Olumoye 981. Ugbodo Camp 982. Ugbuwe 983. Uhen 984. Utese 985. KOKHUO 986. Abumwenre 987. Emeh 988. Okokhuo 989. Okunuvbe 990. Ugbokuli 991. OFUNM- 992. WENGBE 993. Agorise 994. Igezomo 995. Igulye 996. Iguosagie 997. Iwu 998. Izakagbo 999. Ofumwege 1000. Ogua 1001. Eko Ekpetin 1002. Idumwengie 1003. Igbanikaka 1004. Igbehkue 1005. Obarenren 1006. Odighi 1007. Odiguetue 1008. Okhuo Camp 1009. Osasimwinoba 1010. Owan 1011. Ugboke 1012. Uhiere 1013. ISIUWA 1014. Evboneka 1015. Iyowa 1016. Nifor 1017. Okhuen Camp 1018. Ugbogiobo 1019. Ukpoke 1020. ADOLOR 1021. Ekiadolor 1022. Iguodia 1023. Isiukhukhu 1024. Ora 1025. Ovbogie 1026. OLUKU 1027. Egbaen 1028. Iguosa 1029. Okhumwun 1030. Oluku 1031. Olefure 1032. Uhogua 1033. Utekon 1034. IGUOSHODIN 1035. Ayedi 1036. Iguadolo 1037. Iguoshodin 1038. Iguosogban 1039. Ogheghe 1040. Ojogbede 1041. Okakegbe 1042. Okhuninwun Camp 1043. Umuame 1044. Agbaje 1045. Iguogie 1046. Ite 1047. Nigbemagba 1048. Ovah 1049. Utoka 1050. Adama 1051. Agivbigie 1052. Army Barracks 1053. Egbaen 1054. Evbolekpen 1055. Evboro 1056. Igbobi 1057. Igo 1058. Ikoro 1059. Obazuwa 1060. Oghede 1061. Abiala 1062. Egbaton 1063. Ekehuan 1064. Gelegele 1065. Ibaro 1066. Igbobi 1067. Ikpako 1068. Mikotowa 1069. Oduna 1070. Orogo 1071. Ugbine 1072. Ughoton"


Take a good look at the number of settlements listed there for each LGA and compare with the number of places with Ijaws in Edo state:

Abere
Ayakoroma
Gbelebu
Gelegelegbene
Ikoro
Ikusangha
Inekorogha
Ingileuba
Ofoniama
Polobubo
Siluko
Ukomu
Zide

www.ijawfoundation.org/communities.htm+http://www.ijawfoundation.org/communities.htm&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com">http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WaRKT25JIeEJ:www.ijawfoundation.org/communities.htm+http://www.ijawfoundation.org/communities.htm&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com

[Note: the place they are calling Gelegelegbene is Gele Gele, "Inekorogha" = Nikorogha, "Ukomu" = Okomu, etc.]

After looking at this list of how the present two LGAs where are composed, what would any reasonable person reach about the claim that a few non-Bini villages and creeks should constitute four LGAs or even a single LGA? I have seen the lists for the other LGAs in Edo state and they all have a comparable number of cities and villages. The same cannot be said for any proposed Ijaw LGA.




11. The notion that this dispute is due to any personal anti-Ijaw crusade or expansionist movement by Omo N'Oba Erediauwa, is another piece of propaganda.

From what I have read, the dispute arose between actual Binis and Ijaws in the area several decades ago and the Binis there appealed to the Oba. The new Okao of Gelegele (Chief Joseph Iyonmahan) has been fighting their claims since before Omo n'Oba Erediauwa was the Oba of Benin.


12. So Okomu is an Ijaw village now? Well, the Okomu area, with a name derived from a Benin word, is majority Bini (60%). An Ijaw settlement/village named after the Okomu reserve (which is called Okomu-Ijaw, by the way, not Okomu) in Edo state is far from supporting evidence for some of the overreaching claims. There is certainly nothing like an Ijaw Okomu clan or kingdom. Some Ijaws now want to carve away part of Okomu into a new Ijaw dominated LGA and associate it with Olodiama, a certain Ijaw clan with settlements in Okomu. Some have even moved on from calling it Okomu-Ijaw to calling the settlement "Ukomu":

http://www.ijawfoundation.org/communities.htm

www.ijawfoundation.org/communities.htm+http://www.ijawfoundation.org/communities.htm&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com">http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WaRKT25JIeEJ:www.ijawfoundation.org/communities.htm+http://www.ijawfoundation.org/communities.htm&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com

13. On that same site it claims there is an Ijaw community at a place named "Siluko." There wasn't any attempt at modification there. Nobody will be silly enough to claim that there is anything like an original Ijaw settlement named "Siluko". There's no possible ambiguity about that being Bini. Besides, the settlement was actually started by the colonial traders, not Ijaws.

14.

"Study Sites

Okomu Forest Reserve
It is situated between longitudes 5o - 5o 30’ E and latitudes 6o N’ - 6o 10’N.
It is located in Ovia South-West LGA of Edo State and about 40km west of
Benin City. It lies between Rivers Osse and Siluko to the East and West
respectively. The reserve derived its name from River Okomu from the Benin
word ‘Akomu’ meaning unity. The reserve was named Okomu during the
colonial constitution of the reserve. Some of the villages/settlements within
and around the forest reserve are Nikrowa, Ofunama, Udo, Okomu,
Iguohuan, Arakhuan, Iguelaho, Iguagbado, Igueze, Urhezen, Iguafole,
Iguokakhan, Odobaiho, Izide-Noke, Izide and Namen. The Benins’ are the
original landowners and still form 60% of the population but there are other
groups of settlers like Ijaw, Urhobo, Esan within and around the reserve.

Sakpoba Forest Reserve
Sakpoba Forest Reserve lies between latitudes 4o - 4o 30’ and longitudes 6o
- 6o 5’E. It is bounded on the south by Delta State, on the East by Urhonigbe
Forest Reserve and on the West by Free Area, B.C. 30. It is located in
Orhionmwon Local Government Area, about 30 kilometres South-East of
Benin City. Some of the major villages located within and around the reserve
are Ugo, Ikobi, Oben, Iguelaba and Amaladi in Area B.C 32/4, and Ugboko-
Niro, Iguere, Idunmwowina, Evbarhue, Idu, Evbueka, Iguomokhua, Ona,
Abe, Igbakele, Adeyanba, Evbuosa in Area B.C 29. The Benins are the original
landowners and still form 80% of the population living within and around the
forest reserve. There are other ethnic groups such as Urhobo, Itsekiri and
Esan.

Ehor Forest Reserve
Ehor Forest Reserve lies between latitudes 6o - 6o 32’ and longitudes 5o 58’
- 5o 7’ E. It is bounded on the North and North West by Owan (S & N) Forest
Reserves, on the East by Free Areas BC 13/2, 16/2 on the South by free areas
B.C 21/2, 16/2, 21/1 and on the West by Ekiadolor Forest and Owan (S)
Forest Reserves. It is located in Uhunmwode Local Government Area, about
40 kilometres from Benin City along Benin Auchi road. Some major villages
located within and around the forest reserves are Odighi, Osasimwioba
Igbekhue, Egba, Urhokuosa Ugha, Obagie. Ehor, Oke, Okemuen, Osazuwa,
Eguaholor, Ohe, Egbisi, Evbowe, Igieghudu and Uhi. It derives its name from
Ehor being the major town then and now the headquarters of Uhunmwode
Local Government Area. The Benins are the predominant tribe that forms
more than 75% of the population. The other ethnic groups are Esan, Igbanke
and Ibo."

www.ijsf.org/dat/art/vol03/ijsf_vol3_no2_05_azeez_land_use_nigeria.pdf+okomu+benin&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiS0Eq0dl94qZwDVXrdk8goBDxWd9aVGpcYvHqKkV5xTP0WeScDvy_384_rR_gg1JV3lVAHqbK-kfrV3KtROI-HDuU1HTkI4p3gQfpTBTHdshN8GSOvc5oRnPx6uAnwn8NEmvJ5&sig=AHIEtbTsmdMfGTOGAZYPFS7nENIo_ZCL8g">http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:jWQsc3GFaJ4J:www.ijsf.org/dat/art/vol03/ijsf_vol3_no2_05_azeez_land_use_nigeria.pdf+okomu+benin&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiS0Eq0dl94qZwDVXrdk8goBDxWd9aVGpcYvHqKkV5xTP0WeScDvy_384_rR_gg1JV3lVAHqbK-kfrV3KtROI-HDuU1HTkI4p3gQfpTBTHdshN8GSOvc5oRnPx6uAnwn8NEmvJ5&sig=AHIEtbTsmdMfGTOGAZYPFS7nENIo_ZCL8g

www.ijsf.org/dat/art/vol03/ijsf_vol3_no2_05_azeez_land_use_nigeria.pdf

International Journal of Social Forestry, Volume 3, Number 2, December 2010: 164-187

^^^^^

The only relevant questions are:

a) Why are the Urhobo, Itsekiri, and Esan not agitating for an LGA in Sakponba?

b). Are Ijaw illegal timber fellers that moved into the forest areas for economic reasons in the very early 20th century really deserving of being part of an LGA? :

"Initially, Benin Chiefs had protested the influx of migrants into Benin forest and demanded their expulsion in 1897/8. 26 . . .Seeing that their earlier request to stop the migration from Urhobo and Itsekiri into Benin land was not acted upon, the chiefs seized the opportunity of the visit and meeting with Hon. F.S. James, the Lieutenant Governor of Southern Nigeria in 1913 to again state their opposition to the influx of Itsekiri and Urhobo and requested its stoppage. 27 The administration still did not take any action against this influx because it was largely beneficial to British economic interests. Benin communities gradually lost effective control over their forestland which was being virtually taken over by migrants and settlers. . .While other migrants like the Itsekiri restricted themselves to the waterside trade, Yorubas to Cocoa farming around Ogbesse, and Ijaws engaged in illegal timber felling. . ." - Peter Ekeh, History of the Urhobo people of Niger Delta, p. 488

Are these the people you are claiming are "founders" of Ijaw settlements? Okomu Ijaws are not founders of anything. They moved there after 1897.


15. Should a few villages spread out among the many Edo places really get their three or four LGAs?

If they are actually given 3 or 4 LGAs, then it's almost certainly the case that the next Bini governor will try to triple the number of LGAs of the Binis, Esan, and Afemai, just to counter the ludicrous excess of giving the Ijaws three LGAs. Then the government will really be bloated and costly. Even if they get one LGA, you can expect every other group in the state to get one or two more.



16. You seem to have a very poor understanding of what happened after 1897 and that is why you bought all of those claims too easily, without doing much investigation for yourself. The truth is that some other groups swooped in like hawks to take economic advantage of certain areas after the fall of Benin. I would refer you to p. 487 - 494 of Peter Ekeh's History of the Urhobo people of Niger Delta (where he discusses not only Urhobo involvement in this encroaching and settling on Benin lands, but that of other Niger Delta groups) and to the article "Migrating Out of Reach: Fugitive Benin Communities in Colonial Nigeria, 1897-1934" by Uyilawa Usuanlele and Victor Osaro Edo for more on the real origin of some of these multi ethnic areas in the Bini areas in Edo state.

2)On the issue of Idu , I only said that it is even a more ancient name for the Benins and it reflects in some names.Of course you agreed with me when you said that in an account Idu is seen as the name of the ancestor of the Benin , a reminder of its ancient origin.This name also attests to the antiquity of the earliest ancestors of Aniomalands.Because we have never had another name for the Benin people.For the Esan, we call them Ishan, a name which got stuck with the colonialists.It is also quite possible that the original meaning of IDU changed as the Edo nation began to acquire newer names like Edo which is now known today and the result is tht the definition of IDU only became wider.

You must be kidding. You did not even know the meaning of Idu in those names and you were here telling me that Idu was an ancient and original name for the people when it was something else entirely that came to be used as referring to the Edo people much later and in only a few of the names it is used in. The Edo were not under the impression that Idu meant the Edo people because they knew very well what it meant and that is why in common everyday speech that word is not used for the people by anyone and it is also why in the overwhelming majority of Bini names the word Idu does not refer to the Edo people. It is only in a few names that Idu has been interpreted as just being a version of Edo, possibly by those who don't know about the supposed ancestor (Idu) of the Edo and are thus unaware that it is in no way a variation of Edo. Your argument was untenable. The Urhobos call the Edo people Aka, and the Urhobos have even more ancient connections to the Edo - from pre-Ogiso times to Ogiso times to beyond - than any Anioma group. For all we know, before this "Idu" fellow supposedly birthed the Edo group, there could have been an even older ancestor (Aka) who inspired the Urhobos to call the Edo by the name Aka. So the habit of some group to call the Edos by the name of some supposed famous ancestor does not give that particular name (Idu) any primacy or any more correctness as an ethnic demonym.

As for "Ado" that was used by the Yoruba, are you claiming that the Yorubas only had a name for the Edo in the 15th century  (the time of Oba Ewuare, when he supposedly named the kingdom and its people Edo?)? Do you have anything to back up this claim? Does this even sound rational to you? Did the Yoruba have no interaction with the Edo prior to the 15th century? The great Chief Egharevba that you are relying on for this Edo "slave" story says that the Edo originally lived in Ife for a while, in the very same edition of A Short History in which he introduced the story about the "slave" Edo saving Oba Ewuare's life. Yet you believe the Yorubas had to wait until Oba Ewuare proclaimed the name of the people to be Edo, (in order to have a variation on that name (Ado))? I would easily wager that the Edo were always known as Ado to the Yoruba just as they were always known as Idu (called by the name of their ancestor) to the Igbo, or always known as Aka to the Urhobo despite the fact that none of these names are the real name for the Edo people. I told you that I never believed that Ewuare renamed the city for even a minute. In other sources you read very clearly and with no ambiguity that Oba Eweka renamed the kingdom from Igodomigodo to Edo, in some sources you read that Oba Ewuare renamed the kingdom to Edo. The point of this is that, given Egharevba's tendency to attribute a huge number of innovations to Oba Ewuare (although it is true that Oba Ewuare is usually considered the greatest innovator and the most significant Oba), as some studies have shown, and given the lack of logic in claiming that the Yorubas had to wait until the 15th century to develop a variation on a name (Edo) for a group of people that some Yorubas had been interacting with for centuries prior to this, I am not convinced at all about this 15th century claim.

3)Good, for correcting yourself on the history of the moats and I know it was done deliberately because you think the person you are debating with is a neophyte in matters like  this, The moats from your diagram was done only in Benin City as an Edo man, you ought to know that Benin was not the only town in the Benin Kingdom tht had moats.Udo had moats, Ugo had moats as well.The reason I think for the western fortification of the city is apparently to defend the town from Udo and this could have been the reason Udo people did theirs.But what of the Ugo axis ? Or is that not in the Eastern section of Benin lands.The entire network of the Benin moats have been defined in many publications and in many of these accounts it was noted that it could (especially on those on the eastern periphery) as a result of Igbo Expasion towards the west ie Benin.There is even an account amongst Anioma people that the town of Urhonigbe was actually founded by Benin warriors stationed on the site by the Oba to keep the city safe from invaders from the East and this explains for its unusually large size for a Benin settlement.

1. Done deliberately? What is the difference between me saying 7th century and 8th century in regard to Ubulu-Uku and Agbor? Two kingdoms which Benin had no idea of were the motivation for moats? If I had remembered that it was 8th rather than 7th century originally it would have made no difference to my argument that the moats preceded any knowledge of those kingdoms or even the founding dates for those kingdoms according to Agbor and Ubulu-uku historians themselves.

Let's discuss this moats issue seriously, rather than engaging in baseless conjecture about imagined expansion or attacks from kingdoms which did not exist (Agbor and Ubulu-Uku) and whose founders had not even arrived at the time the moats were first built.


2. You have explicitly claimed that people say that Ubulu-Uku was just starting up in the 10th century (900 AD) in your response to exotik:

"However not all Anioma people are of assimilated stock.Most were of Eastern Igbo origin and this group were the earliest to settle on the land(at Ubulu Uku c900 AD)."


The earliest moats at the eastern part of the Edo speaking area (at Ekhor n'Iro) are from the 8th century (circa 700 AD). The iya in Ekhor cannot be for defense against a nonexistent threat.

I would like to think that you know the difference between 8th century and 10th century. You claim people only even arrived in the 10th century and historians of those kingdoms do not give an earlier founding date (I have checked), but you are here are simultaneously trying to claim that they inspired moat building in the eastern Edo area that preceded their arrival by two centuries? Are you deliberately trying to mislead people? Unfortunately for you, I am not a neophyte on the issue of the Benin iya.

3. I would like to think that you can connect the dots and do not need to be spoonfed facts that should be obvious. If a kingdom considers any other kingdom, state, etc. to be a threat, they will not leave their most important settlement (that containing the Ogiso's palace or the Oba's palace) unguarded from the direction from which that threat lies. That was the relevance of posting that diagram of the walls.

4.The Edo warrior king Akpanigiakon, the Ogie of Udo who harrassed Benin was indeed the reason for the digging of moats on the western side, until Udo was conquered and incorporated. That is already known.

On if the Benins knew of the Agbor and Ubulu Uku kingdoms, How did you know if they dont know abt the kingdoms ? Because there are evidences they knew than they didnot know.A good example is the distribution of food crops usually economic trees which are relatively unknown in Yorubaland but have always formed the diet of the Anioma/Igbo and the Edo people.Let me give an example, The African Breadfruit, In Yorubaland it is virtually unknown but in Edo  and Anioma lands it is a staple food item.This is how you study history.

No, this is how you make weak attempts to discuss the agricultural history of a region without knowing what you're talking about . What kind of bizarre claim is this? Are you unaware that some areas of the country are geographically different (in terms of terrain, for one thing)? Why then would the existence of certain types of plant life in the areas of two groups but not in another area which is slightly geographically different, in some way show that a certain fruit was necessarily spread and traded between two human groups (leading to it spreading from one area to another), rather than existing in both areas of the two groups naturally (as other vegetation common to both areas had existed) independently of any human activity to spread it?

This would be like arguing that the knowledge of the kola nut among the Fulani and the Igbo necessarily means that there was ancient contact in which one group (Fulani) spread the kola nut to the other group (Igbo) but not to any groups that can be shown to not have indigenous knowledge of the kola nut without modern contact with either group. Therefore there was significant ancient contact between the Fulani and the Igbo? (Going by your reasoning.) This is completely ludicrous reasoning and does not have any validity.

But that is only a theoretical error in your reasoning. There are factual errors as well. Let's discuss the African breadfruit, since you want to engage in speculation in areas where (clearly) neither of us have any expertise.

1. The Yoruba word for the African breadfruit is "afon":

"Treculia africana (African breadfruit) is a tropical tree crop belonging to the taxonomic family Moraceae. It is also called wild jackfruit or African-boxwood. To the French it is abre   pain d' Afrique.

In Nigeria, the Igbos call it ukwa. It is afon in Yoruba; ize in Benin, Jekri and Sobo; izea in Ijaw; ediang in Efik.

According to The Useful Plants of Tropical West Africa by H. M. Burkill, "the bark of breadfruit tree is used medicinally in the Western Province, Gold Coast, as cough medicine and laxative, and in French Guinea for leprosy. According to Pobeguin, the sap of the male tree is supposed to be caustic and toxic, and is applied on cotton wool to cause a carious tooth to fall out".

http://www.yorubareligion.org/_con/_rubric/detail.php?nr=1046&rubric=healing


^^^^^

a) The Yorubas know what that fruit is, independant of modern agricultural trends and they have an indigenous name for it.

b) There is a similarity between the name for African breadfruit among the Bini, Itsekiri, Urhobo, and Ijaw. We know that there was trade between those groups, particularly at Ughoton and at the riverine areas of the Benin kingdom. But even if the Delta Igbos called the African breadfruit ize rather than ukwa, it would not prove when any contact would have occurred, as the word could have been spread later.


2. "Introduction
The African breadfruit tree (Treculia africana Decn var
africana) is native to many tropical countries like West
Indies, Ghana, Sierra Leone, Nigeria and Jamaica1. Its seed,
commonly called “afon” and “ukwa” by the Yoruba and
Igbos of Nigeria, is popular as a traditional food item. It is
commonly roasted, cooked, mashed and consumed either
directly as snack food or as flour for use in soup thickening
and cakes." - Chemical properties of raw and processed breadfruit (treculia africana) seed flour, African Crop Science Conference Proceedings, Vol. 6. 547-551

http://www.acss.ws/Upload/XML/Research/70.pdf

exotik:


secondly, you have made it clear time and time again that igbos were the first to embrace western education and even had the[b] first school that is older than edo college in benin[/b], so why did it now take the igbos so freaking long to write down their historical version of the flogging of the iyoba? and how come most of the igbo history are just surfacing? what have they been doing with all the so-called education they embraced so early? using it to learn how to make and perfect akpu?

@ Exotik, bro, don't concede even an inch to this guy until you check out the veracity of his claims. He is a master propagandist and seems to get a thrill from misleading people by sneaking in propaganda, outright falsehoods, and untenable insinuations in between statements of genuine historical fact. His statements about Binis and educational attainment or about Zik are complete propaganda. Binis, as a minority group in Nigeria are not sluggards academically, whether we are talking about the founding of schools or the heading schools as vice chancellor and they did not have some sort of anti-Zik sentiment. All of that exists in his head.

It is true that non-Bini groups had a British created educational head start and advantage over the Binis in the Midwest and Uyilawa Usuanlele has written an article discussing this called "Colonial State and Education in Benin Division, 1897 - 1959" which you can read over the web if you search for that title. It goes into detail about that era. But Binis have caught up since then.

For the record, his claim about the first secondary schools in the Midwestern region being in Anioma land is completely misleading and a deliberate attempt at misrepresentation. The teacher's training college at Ibusa that he was bragging about was founded by WHITE CATHOLIC MISSIONARIES. Their Catholic connections helped them more than they helped themselves. By contrast, in 1930 Oba Eweka II requested to the colonial government for a school like that of King's College, Lagos, to be built using money accrued to the Native Authority in Benin. However the colonial government delayed implementation of that request for a whole 7 years, and the school was founded in 1937 while Oba Akenzua II was reigning. It is a fact that the first secondary school built in the Midwestern region independent of missionary help was Edo College. What were they doing all that time while Oba Eweka II was thinking of how to get a school like the one his son attended in Lagos built in Benin?

Also, the first primary school in the Midwestern region, was established in 1900, in Benin city, by the way (though not on the initiative of the Binis, so this isn't even important). This claim of primacy because of the founding of schools by white missionaries is just bizarre.

This was like his weak attempt to denigrate Binis with that vice chancellor claim from earlier. Looking at that VC issue again:

a) Emmanuel U. Emovon (chemistry professor) was VC of a university (University of Jos) by 1978. He was also the first Nigerian to obtain a Ph.D.  in chemistry. Was there an Anioma man who was VC of a Nigerian university at or before that time, by the way? Whether there was or wasn't, did the Binis start bragging about how many of the other groups in Nigeria that they had beaten to produce a VC of a federal university? No.

b) The man who was passed over for Dr. Emmanuel Nwanze when Nwanze was appointed -  Dr. Anthony U. Osagie, a founding faculty member of UNIBEN and a former head of his department (Biochemistry department of Uniben) and former past president of the Nigerian Society for Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, was more academically accomplished than Dr. Nwanze (actually, much more academically accomplished - in terms of publications, citations, etc., and also had more administrative experience), so it was not as if Dr. Nwanze was chosen first based on the inability of the Binis to produce anybody who met some specific academic criterion or criteria prior to Professor Oshodin. There were three names submitted, and Osagie was very far ahead of the other two on a purely academic basis (not that the other two were not good, he just edges them out very significantly in terms of citations and publications - he has over many more publications (over 70 publications (over 100 total publications including review articles) and over 500 citations), yet this guy Ogbuefi is so biased that he was making all sorts of insinuations over a decision which had nothing to do with merit.

c) Professor Tiamiyu Bello-Osagie (Hakeem Bello-Osagie's father), the most senior academic at Uniben at the time, was passed over as VC in 1976

d) Despite any suggestions to the contrary, after the tenure of Adamu Baikie, there was clearly ethnic zoning with respect to the position of VC:



Grace Alele-Williams    Itsekiri Delta State
Onokerhoraye             Urhobo Delta State
Abhulimen Anao           Esan   Edo State
Nwanze                       Anioma Delta State



It would be extremely dishonest of anyone to say the position was not ethnically zoned within the Bendel area and to assert that only merit was involved.

It makes little sense that they would start with Tijani Yesufu (Etsako, Edo state), follow up with Adamu Baikie (from Kaduna state), but then return to ethnic zoning after initially avoiding it with the choice of  Baikie, but they did just that.  It is not only academic merit that was the deciding factor here, yet he was making all sorts of insinuations.

The Binis had said nothing after most other groups - Esan, Etsako, Urhobo, Itsekiri, and Anioma -  had taken their turn, and the grouse was only minor at first.

But there is NOTHING to suggest that without the agitation of some Binis, following the exit of Nwanze as VC, that the position would have necessarily gone to a Bini, despite the fact that the university had been going down that ethnic zoning path in the previous decades.

When the Binis finally said something, dumb people claimed it was tribalism!

How can a university be practicing ethnic zoning for decades, but then others complain when one ethnic zone asks for what's due to it?!

How can a university be practicing ethnic zoning for a position but then begin to pretend after everyone else besides the Binis has had a VC that they are doing no such thing?!

If they wanted only merit at Uniben they should have stuck with only merit from the beginning. But they didn't. Multiple times they passed over merit for ethnic and sectional interests.  I remember reading two idiotic articles on Nigerian websites by one cretin, a certain Mr. Igini, which attempted to comment on the Uniben VC tussle intelligently but only ended up displaying his ignorance. Ogbuefi's propaganda reminds me very much of those articles, but Ogbuefi's case is even worse because he comes from a group that would rightfully protest exclusion from certain positions when they merit it but he cannot hold to the same principle when the situation involves Binis because of his grudge.

He was actually bragging about a group being designated as having the last turn and then possibly being kept away from the position (if not for the agitation) for no reason, which one would think he would be opposed to, but when Binis are involved, he can't see reason.




Yet another example of this propaganda:

Ogbuefi 1: But going deeper , I learnt from a source that the Benins alledged Igbos were taking over their land simply because Zik said during a visit to the City that it is the "Land of his Ancestors", And invasion of the Midwest excited suspicion that the Igbos were "annexing Benin lands " just as Zik had noted. You see the mis interpretation of points here

Ha ha ha, you mean this Zik?





(Fragile Legacy: Photographs as Documents in Recovering Political and Cultural History at the Royal Court of Benin
Author(s): Flora S. Kaplan
Source: History in Africa, Vol. 18 (1991), pp. 205-237
Published by: African Studies Association
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/3172063)

[don't mind the misspelling by the author]

I'm really stunned by this claim. Who are "the Benins" from this allegation? One drunk in a beer parlour somewhere? Who is this "source"? Another drunk?

You actually think Binis had some sort of issue with Zik claiming that he had ties to Benin? Binis were proud of that. How far are you willing to go with these claims just to put down the Edo?


I'll respond to some of Ogbuefi's other claims in a little while. I'm pretty amused by some of his responses. This "Iyoba" fable is one of the silliest and is quite ironic. I'll comment on that as well.

Yeah, it is definitely an Edo name. If you facebook or linkedin around a bit you only see Binis with that name.

Here's proof, if you need it:

http://www.edoworld.net/Edo_Africa_names_dictionary_I.html



Are you asking because of Andre Iguodala?

Modern (recent) concept art  by Stephen Hamilton giving his artistic interpretation:



"Palace of Benin"

I like how subdued and calm this is and his choice to opt for a straightforward nostalgic depiction of the city rather than flashy colors or grandiose scenes and poses.


[img]http://1.bp..com/_pKZet9634AM/S5W1V7WmWYI/AAAAAAAAAZM/JFPCiYBidXU/s1600/courtflatflatsmall.jpg[/img]

He labeled this "palace of benin impluvial shrine"

I like how he incorporated

1) the impluvium
2) the thatch on the roof
3) the open roof courtyard
4) the Benin style of columns (note the difference between the bottom and top of the column) as seen in photographs
5) a known, but not yet seen (due to the destruction of the palace) historical fact that was attested to by Dapper's informant and multiple other visitors to Benin:

"The king's palace or court is a square, and is as large as the town of Haarlem and entirely surrounded by a special wall, like that which encircles the town. It is divided into many magnificent palaces, houses, and apartments of the courtiers, and comprises beautiful and long square galleries, about as large as the Exchange at Amsterdam, but one larger than another, resting on wooden pillars, from top to bottom covered with cast copper, on which are engraved the pictures of their war exploits and battles, "
    —Olfert Dapper, Nauwkeurige Beschrijvinge der Afrikaansche Gewesten

Although the type of columns may have been of earth, rather than wood in the case of the type of columns used for his artistic depiction. Still, there were certainly columns, whether earthen or wooden, on which art was displayed.




This one he labeled "benin palace: akoko tree gardens"

This one I find interesting. I like the strict adherence to the style of building seen in the brass plaques and the photographs. I like the incorporation of the bird of prophecy on the top of the turret as well.

And I don't know if he already knew this, but the depiction of gardens is backed by historical sources:


"This compound consisted of about a hundred houses, whose roofs
made a good blaze. Behind the buildings there
was a huge garden, which we never had time to
explore, but it must have been quite a hundred
acres, surrounded by a high red wall. It is not
unlikely that it was the walking place of the King,
and formed part of his compound . . ." -  Reginald H. Bacon, Benin (1897)

It would be interesting if this thread in some way gave him any ideas or help.      That's probably just conceit on my part, though. He could have just found out about Benin architecture on his own. Either way, I'm impressed.

I really have to give this guy credit. These are some of the best artistic depictions of Benin I've seen.


I found his art here:

http://akinconcept..com/

http://akinconcept..com/search?q=benin


He also has other somewhat interesting stuff there.

He seems to have art of the palace at Oyo (though he's naming it something else, maybe for some semi-fictional art project), a cool looking shrine, and art about Lukeni of the kingdom of Kongo. . .very creative stuff.

"The king's wall in Benin City. Benin, Nigeria. Silver gelatin print, 10.2cm x 13.9cm (4" x 5.5". Photograph by J. H. Swainson, 1892. Macdonald Niger Coast Protectorate Album, A1996-190138."


[It should be noted that the angle doesn't give a good impression of the height of the wall:

"Legroing tells us : " The city of Benin is situated in a plain surrounded by deep
ditches. Vestiges of an old earthen wall are to be seen ; the wall could hardly have
been built of any other material as we did not see a single stone in the whole journey
up. The houses for the most part are covered with latanier leaves, and those of
the king with large shingles. In front of the king's houses there were two thick
clumps of high trees, and these appeared to us to be the only trees planted by the
hand of man (Labarthe, p. 175)." From Landolphe we learn that a " ditch more than
20 feet wide and as deep surrounds the town, and the soil taken out is made on the
city side into a talus, on which a thorny hedge has been planted so thick, that not
even an animal can get through. The height of this talus deprives one of a view of
the houses at a distance, and one does not see them until entering the town, the gates
of which are very far apart " (II., 48). " The streets are very broad ; in the middle
there is turf on which the kids and sheep feed ; about thirty feet from the houses
there is a level road, covered with sand for the inhabitants to walk on " [ibid, II., 50).
He also mentions several spacious courts surrounded by earthen walls about sixteen
feet high. Along the inside of the walls there ran a gallery fifteen feet wide, thatched
with natanier. The thatching is done by overlapping the leaves which not
being pulled apart, fall one on top of another to a thickness of eighteen inches.
This roof is supported by large pieces of timber cut into the shape of pillars. They
are set up about eighteen feet apart, and carry stout horizontal planks on which
abut the sloping joists which carry the roof, which was an ingenious piece of work "
(ibid, I., 111-112). Of the apartments of the king's wives he says the walls are twenty
feet high and five feet thick, solidly built of earth [ibid, I., 335)." - H. Ling Roth, Great Benin ]

An 1897 photograph of a Benin building.




A (bad quality, unfortunately) zoom in on that same picture:





This is not from that article ("Images of Benin at the Pitt Rivers Museum" by Coote and Edwards) above, for the record.

I feel somewhat bad about posting this, especially since these are probably the great-grandfathers of people I might know, but since these men look very calm and composed and dignified, there can't be that much harm in posting this :





From the same article.

Another 1897 photograph of the building used as a temporary residence by the British invaders, without the annoying bodies blocking part of the view of the building.


A closer look at this photograph:





This is also from the same article ("Images of Benin at the Pitt Rivers Museum" by Coote and Edwards) above.

A house in Benin city occupied by the British soldiers as a temporary residence.


A closer look at the same picture:





Note the beams, identical to those that can be seen in that 1897 photograph of one of the courtyards of the Benin palace.


Also note the impluvium.

This is from the same article referenced above.

A closer look (to show the building in the background) at the same photograph:





In the back you can see a building that was used as a temporary residence by the British invaders.


This is from the same article ("Images of Benin at the Pitt Rivers Museum" mentioned above.

Captain George LeClerc Egerton, "King's Palace, Benin," 1897(?). Watercolor on paper, image 15cm x 32.5cm (5.9" x 12.8". Dumas Egerton Trust Benin Collection, Pitt Rivers Museum, University of Oxford, PRM: 1991.13.29. Acquired on long-term loan in 1991.


^^^^^
This painting of a section of the Palace (occupied by British officers) was by Egerton after the fall of Benin either immediately after (in 1897) or shortly after from memory.



From:

"Images of Benin at the Pitt Rivers Museum"
Author(s): Jeremy Coote and Elizabeth Edwards
Source: African Arts, Vol. 30, No. 4, Special Issue: The Benin Centenary, Part 2 (Autumn,1997), pp. 26-35+93
Published by: UCLA James S. Coleman African Studies Center
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/3337551

Captain George LeClerc Egerton, "Ju Ju Compound, Benin," 1897(?). Watercolor on paper, image 15.5cm x 34.5cm (6.1" x 13.6". Dumas Egerton Trust Benin Collection, Pitt Rivers Museum, PRM: 1991.13.30. Acquired on long-term loan in 1991.



^^^^

This painting of a compound somewhere in Benin was made by Egerton or one of his aides in 1897 after the fall of Benin.


From:

"Images of Benin at the Pitt Rivers Museum"
Author(s): Jeremy Coote and Elizabeth Edwards
Source: African Arts, Vol. 30, No. 4, Special Issue: The Benin Centenary, Part 2 (Autumn,1997), pp. 26-35+93
Published by: UCLA James S. Coleman African Studies Center
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/3337551 ."

[edit - I had earlier posted in this (now edited) post a picture of a house next to a religious gathering, from the book Benin: The Surrounding Country, Inhabitants, Customs and Trade (February 1897) by James Pinnock, but I am now certain that this was not a Benin house or a Benin gathering. The location of the picture was not stated at all in the book and the book has images of other places in colonial Nigeria such as Warri and Lagos. The time of the publication (February 1897) makes it impossible for that to be a Benin building, and in addition a second picture on the same page of the book which shows the same gathering shows certain building structures that are undoubtedly European, making me believe that this is really Warri (which is in the "surrounding country" around Benin, of course) after the introduction of British rule. I am especially led to this conclusion because immediately preceding the two pictures of the house and gathering, there are two pictures - one of Nana of Olomu (Itsekiri) and another one of Chief "Fragonie", Chief "Du Du" and Chief Dore (Itsekiri). Chief Nana is listed as being Chief Nana of "Benin" and the other three Itsekiri chiefs are listed as being at "Benin". I think the author confused Warri for Benin there (Europeans had done that very previously on occasion, as Alan F.C. Ryder's work and other scholars' work has shown). That said, some of the houses in Warri are described by Olfert Dapper in 1668 in this manner: "It has fine buildings, particularly the houses of the nobility, roofed with palm leaves, and like those in Benin, but made of grey earth while those in Benin are red. The court of the King is established in the manner of that in Benin but very much smaller." The houses of Benin and Warri would have had some similarity so it was not that big a mistake on my part. That said, I am not confident that the house in the image is entirely made in the same style of precolonial buildings, so I won't leave the image up in this thread. People who are interested can track down the book online or offline and look up through the images themselves.]

An interesting post on the Benin City museum from a blog that I came across:




"Eventually, I got to chat with the museum director who assured me that, even though the museum did not permit pictures of the artifacts inside the museum due to people creating duplicates to replace with the originals they would steal, taking pictures outside the museum was OK. Whew! I waited a half hour to purchase an entry ticket for the museum.

DOWNSTAIRS–

Case 20:

Equestrian figure with shield and axe (bronze)

Horse rider – barrel-shaped stomach and torso, diminutive hands, necklace with motif (see journal drawing), cap with floppy top, three scars or wrinkles on each side of mouth

Medicine container, three legs, face below spout

Portuguese soldier who helped Oba Esige in war against the Idah

Case 19:

Terracotta heads for bronze casters to place on their paternal shrines

Case 18:

Igbesamwan guild:

Carved wooden bowl with knot pattern (see journal drawing)

Carved wooden antelope box

Case 21:

Iguneromwon guild made bronzes for oba:

Decorated bronze gong used by oba, three figurines, oba in center, his hands held on each side by other figures

Bronze ram pendant – chief’s ceremonial paraphernalia

Bronze baboon hip mask – chief’s ceremonial paraphernalia

Bronze fish-styled kolanut container used for royal visitors

Case 17:

Ivory carvers same guild as wood carvers

Ivory equestrian figures

When elephant killed, one tusk for oba plus he had first option to buy the other tusk in the pair

Case 16:

Egogo – double bronze gong used by oba to scare away evil spirits

Bini warlord with assistants, bronze plaque (photo)

Case 15:

Bronze plaque depicting war chief holding ceremonial sword in right hand, cap or helmet, feather (?) above left ear, gong (?) under left hand

Bronze plaque of commander-in-chief of Bini army and his diminutive horn blower

City of Benin, center of kingdom, oba’s palace
Two parts: Ogber oba’s residence, court, palace chiefs
Orenskhua – town chiefs’ and retainers’ homes
Further divided into 40+ wards, each ward specializing in duties for the oba, such as brass-casting, leatherwork, etc.
Queen mother in separate palace outside city walls

Case 23:

Bronze equestrian figure – messenger from the north, muzzle and strange reins and harness (?) or blades (?) in each hand, elaborate headdress including pine cone like shape on top

Case 14:

Bronze Ododua ceremonial head mask worn by seven dancers during Igue festival, oval mouth, two bronze braids of hair of fiber hanging in front of ears on each side, elaborate headdress looking like half wheel with spokes

Bini pendant depicting magical power – lion-like face, oval mouth, circular rings around edge

Case 24:

Partial reconstruction of shrine (one of two) in oba’s palace to commemorate his ancestors – sacrifices made here, bells, staffs, carved ivory tusks mounted on bronze heads, bronze heads and other bronzes, floor has cowrie patterns set in clay/earth

Carved ancestral heads

Iye, big bronze cock, locally called “Okpa�?, usually on altar dedicated to queen mother

Case 25:

Oro – Bini bird of disaster symbolizing oba’s superiority over fate, bird with long narrow beak on pedestal

Bronze hip mask of a queen mother

Bronze bust of a Bini oba – young-looking, helmet with three protruding elements left, center, right, braids/fibers hanging from helmet or head hair(?), ringed necklaces on neck and draped on chest

Case 26:

Aomuada – nude royal attendants, three standing side by side with layer hair/helmets, braids/fibers on each side in front of ears, elaborate designs on bodies (diamonds, triangles, circles), bracelets, anklets, uncircumcised phalluses

Bronze mudfish plaque

Case 27:

Ibebogo – bronze altar of the hand, symbol of human power to achieve mateial and practical success, oba’s hand = well-being of whole kingdom, cylinder shape on thin base, cnetral male oba’s figure, accompanied by female figures with drooping breasts, fans(?) covering genitals (holding hands on each side), knotted patterns in circles on cylinder top

Case 28:

Brass plaque for ritual sacrifice of cow – four figures holding stretched legs, another holding head while main figure slits throat with dagger, two other small and even smaller figures holding ceremonial objects(?), one figure holding leg may have bald pate on top suggesting layers, represent hair rather than helmets, another has braids of hair or fiber braided into hair(?)

Note: “Braids�? could also be strings of beads hanging from beaded crown

Executioner’s head – strange longish shape with “nose�? six inches up from handle

Case 29:

Janus executioner with each side holding sword on right and severed head in left hand

Single executioner, sword in right hand, severed head in left

Body of executed victim, face down, elbows bound together with twine behind back

Case 30:

Bronze ritual jug in shape of leopard used to pour water from mouth or nostrils to cleanse oba’s hands during ceremonies, filled through hole in top of head

Bronze spoon used in ceremonies

Case 31:

Bronze plaque of oba in divine aspect supported by attendants holding one hand on each side, all wearing helmets with protruding pole topped by four horizontal radial spikes and one vertical spike, neck rings, tunic, braids, belt or kilt with human heads, legs of mudfish, four frogs around border of patterned background with three arms (left, bottom center, right) holding three feathers each, mudfish-legged oba equated with olokun, god of sea OR possibly an oba who became paralyzed

Another similar plaque

Ekpen (Edo) bronze leopard wall mask used for decoration of paternal shrines

Obas were divine kings, reincarnations of past kings, whose health was equated with the well-being of the kingdom, person of the king was sacred, had supernatural powers

Case 34:

Bronze plaque representing oba Akengo I, a Bini king who had dreadlock (dada) hair, holding sword in right hand, necklace, kilt

Case 35:

Bronze plaque of Benin king, dressed in regalia: staff of office, shield, neck rings, four attendants

Miles on miles of Benin City walls, inner wall 45 (or 4.5?) feet high, dated to 1450-1550, deep ditch running on outside

Case 1:

Bronze cast of queen mother’s head in early 16th century, Idia-Ghe, mother of Oba Esigie, played important role in war against Idahs, so Esigie gave her title of queen mother (the first one), neck rings, conical hat or hair netting pointed toward direction forward from face, four braids on each side in front of ears

Another queen mother head

15th-16th century, empire reached from Porto Novo to beyond Niger River in east, vassal states paid tribute to oba or faced war

Spears, rather short, of iron

Short guns introduced by Portuguese

Ukokoghe (Bini) gun powder keg used to store gunpowder or traditional medicines, shaped like a big long pill with hole at top, face in middle, and rings on each side

Riches of Benin court hidded from outside world until British expedition of 1897.

1485 – Europeans first got word of Benin, trade in peper, ivory, slaves, palm oil

1668 book has picture of oba being carried

1897 foreign visitor’s map of Benin

Bronze plaques of Portuguese warriors, some holding manilas, which succeeded cowries/shells as currency in 16th century

Portuguese assisted Oba Esigie in war against Idah

Pair of bronze rams used as security agents in oba’s palace

Ceremonial swords used as sanctions of chieftanship deriving from oba and as symbols of his own kingship:

Ada (drawing in journal)

Eben (drawing in journal) – dances of homage to oba danced with Eben before chiefs

Equestrian figure of oba with attendants demonstrates oba’s social control over man and beast

Ofo – messenger of Ogiuwu – chief in charge of all executioners, presentation of bronze plaque signifies death sentence, head with diminutive legs, bent arms sticking out from top of head, four radial circular emblems in relief from background with dotted and floral design

Royal messenger wearing Maltese cross on chest

1897 palace took up 1/16 of city – entered palace through gate flanked by high towers, large bronze python (40 foot long) mounted on each tower, undecorated clay wall surrounding palace, interior richly ornamented, interior building surrounded series of courtyards, behind three courtyards was a large conference hall with huge bronze snake at southern end

Plaque of Amufi acrobats hanging on ropes from cotton tree with three birds in upper branches, ceremony to bring rain

Case 38:

Bronze plaque of crocodile with fish in mouth (not mudfish), best sacrificial victim to Olokun, goddess of the sea, is the crocodile

Benin Court art – according to Chief Eghareuba, brass casting began in Benin City in 1280 when Oba Oguola commissioned Iguegha to found a guild of skilled craftsmen (Iguneromwon) – worked solely for oba’s court, altarpieces, plaques, decorative objects

Iguneromwon in one city ward and other wards included guilds that didn’t have to work only for the oba:

Igbesamulan: wood and ivory carvers

Isseivie: beadworkers

Ise-Ekpokie: leather workers, etc.

UPSTAIRS–

Case 1:

Okakagbe Masquerade – role of spirits to the living

Odagu mother figure masquerade is senior figure in Okakagbe dance from Etsoko division at annual festivals held by Weppa-Wano at New Yam time (Oct-Mar) or to honor village titulary deity, four adults and one child in this dance

Case 2:

Carved ivory amulets, figures of oba, chiefs, musicians, or abstract designs

Chiefs used wooden carved rams heads in ancestral shrines since bronze only for oba

Pair of stools sent by Oba of Benin to King of Portugal

Case 3:

Ewawa divination used ram horns, bronze cover with human face, pendants, and cowrie charms

Ifa divination pendants – all pendants have oval shaped metal pieces on thin twisted metal sticks

Case 4:

Carved wooden ancestral head with feather

Case 5:

Olokun (male) shrines with elaborate clay pots, divinity of sea and rivers, mainly worshiped by women who have individual shrines for him

Ikengobo (wooden), used in cult of the hand, symbol of individual’s efficiency and success

“Akhe�? Osun pot used to hold traditional medicines

Case 6:

Ekpo face masks (five) performed with raffia in masquerades on yearly Eho Ekpo ritual celebrating the young and healthy, masked dance on final day of ritual, senior mask is Iyekpo, epitome of motherhood, other masks: native doctor, authorities, and animals, especially leopards, antelopes, and young people

Case 7:

Traditional drums used by native doctors and chiefs during ceremonies, four foot tall, wooden with carved figures and designs, pegged skins on top

Case 8:

Pottery, fashioned by hand (no wheel), prepared by pounding, kneading, treading, mold or coil lumps of clay on supporting device like calabash, dried in sun then fired before or after decoration, firing in open or in low wall enclosure (but no true kiln), stacked on leaves, twigs, cow dung under heap of grass, 15 minutes to whole day in duration, some only sun dried

Case 9:

Palace wooden door panels

Case 10:

Headdresses from Delta state – stilt dancers

Case 11:

Wooden helmet possibly from Afema division (beautiful!)

Case 12:

Musical instruments:

Aktapa (stringed above wooden box), hano? Used during folktales

Snake skin twin drums (double membrane), used by native doctors

Ivory flutes

Finger piano (metal slats over wooden box with small hole)

Case 13:

Carved wooden box used by princess or presented to her during marriage ceremony, knotted pattern (see journal drawing) and other knots on top, radial and knotted patterns on sides

Case 14:

Wooden container for pounding yams (like large wooden goblet with lid)

Wooden combs

Tray used to carry palm wine usually in calabash bowl

Wooden tray

Wooden figures to offer kolanuts

Igara cloth (looks almost like Tellum design)

Case 15:

Long wooden pipe (six feet) with bowl lit by small child who sits by the end

Oguoro game board

Ayo played with beans, counters, or cowries

Case 16:

Wooden royal “telegraphic�? stool – sent as if a letter, message in design of stool

Case 17?:

Terracotta head used for decoration and remembrance

Case 18:

Cast of head in Udo style

Case 19:

Ife terracotta head placed in paternal shrine

Case 20:

Bronze Janus head used as part of Obuobo bell in ancestral shrine, etc.

Case 21:

Some similarities between Benin, Delta, Ife, and Owo styles, for example striations on some Owo terracotta and Benin bronze faces

TOP FLOOR–

Nigerian traditional cultures:

Igbo: democratic, egalitarian

Yoruba: patrilineage

Bini: divine ancestral kinship

Emirate system in northern Nigeria

Iron, mid 7th century BCE in central Nigeria

Terracotta, 500 BCE, Nok

Divination

Yoruba

Shango, thunder (parallel to Igbo’s Amadioha)

Eshu, trickster

Ifa priests (Dibio priests of Igbo – Afa divination) (Edo’s Ewawa)

Odu-Iwa divination narratives, 256 verses

Babalawo trained for 5-10 years to be father of secrets

Number system based on 20 (see Goutier Hegel, 1996)

Rainmakers burn large wood fires to create precipitation

Right hand symbol of strength and achievement among Igbo, Igala, Urhobo, and Edo in the Ikenga complex

Hero worship of skull, fertility or ancestral cult symbolized in Ekpa wooden sculptures (Oron – Cross River), So, and Mimuye figures (Adamawa/Taraba)

Ibeji twin figures (Ere Ibeji) – Yoruba redefinition of what elsewhere was considered an abomination, tied to concept of reincarnation and repeater babies (Abiku or Ogbanjo in Igbo)

Case 1:

Divination:

Beaded Ifo divination bag (apo ifa)

House whisk (irukere ifa)

Large beaded divination charm (ileke ifa)

Beaded divining chain (opele ifa)

Divination tray (opon ifa)

Divination ivory (iroke ifa) used to invoke Orunmila

Receptacle (ogere ifa)

Case 2:

Sango (Yoruba)

Wooden double-headed axe (ose sango) {Aam dioha (Igbo) – check this}

Ritual garment (ewu sango)

Ritual wand (ose)

Receptacle (arugba sango)

Sango staff (ose)

Ritual mortar (odo sango)

Case 3:

Esu Elegbara – trickster god, Orunmila’s companion, messenger of the gods (Yoruba) or gatekeeper (Benin)

Edo variant of Ifa called Ewawa in Benin, using bundle of charms

Case 4:

Ram head symbolism

Owo piece called Osama sinmi (variant of Benin Uhumwelao memorial heads in ancestral shrines)

Case 5?:

Panel I: Cult of Hand

Panel I(A): Art of Honoring the Dead

Panel II: Heroes and Heroines

Human flutist with semi-erect phallus and protruding bellybutton from Montol, Plateau states

So figures – Mambila / Adamawa

Case 5: Motherhood

Ibesi twins

Bay 2:

Music

Hausa/Fulani: string and wind experts

Yoruba: talking drums

Igbo: xylophones, thumb pianos

British learned Yoruba drum signals (Basden, 1921, p.364)

Gelede masks of SW Yoruba and Dahomey, worn by men masquerading as women in honor of the great Mo?____a?_Nea (?) whose witchcraft powers are cultivated in rituals, dance, and drama to enhance fertility

Drums

Ogere slit drum (Igbo) used as talking drum

Case 6:

Resonators:

Ankle rattles, waist rattles

Calabash

Ivory flute (inc. Yoruba)

Case 7:

Face masks

Panel 5:

Igbo masks, including large one with horns and alternating teeth

Epa mask (Yoruba)

Bay 3:

War

Case 8:

Charms

Chain mail, shields and heralds

Bow and arrow, spear, double-headed spear (Hodgja, Kano)

Suns

Bay 4:

Food production

Cutlass, axe, hoe, spear

Yam complex – New Yam festivals

Tobacco pipe as status symbolized

Groundnuts (peanuts?) and cowpeas (beans)

Palm oil

Fishing

Bay 5:

Women, Art, and Power

Case 6:

Skin-covered mask (Ejagham, Cross River, Akwa-Ibom) for fertility dance, long spiral horns (beautiful!)"


http://willdoherty.org/wordpress/?p=1625

Thanks bokohalal. I've been a bit busy recently, but I'll be responding to any other statements about Binis as time permits. I also have to commend you for these proverbs. Keep up the good work.

An interesting and unusual proverb that I came across:


"A gha sẹ Ẹdo, Ẹdo rree” - When One Arrives in Benin, Benin is Distant


I found the quote and its explanation here:

http://greatbenin..com/2011/04/agha-se-edo-edo-rree-when-one-arrives.html

^^^

Alright, thanks for taking it into consideration.

OAM4J:

^^Thanks.

Do you know when you were banned and were you told how long it will last?

I was banned around the beginning of January, this year, I think. I wasn't told how long it would last.

Ogbuefi 1: 4)Now, on the OZA NOGOGO issue, The people of Oza Nogogo are later settlers to Agbor clan and they were granted lands by the Obi of Agbor .According to our history, they were remnants of those who had followed Ezechime from Benin c.1530.Though they have managed to have integrated as part of Agbor, they still manage to speak a corrupt version of Edo with has a lot of Igbo loan words.The ruler of Oza Nogogo is the Ogisi and he is installed by the Obi of Agbor and a member of the Agbor traditional council.With time dispute arosed amongst Oza people and some of them crossed the Orhionmwon river(the boundary between Anioma and Edo lands in that axis) and founded such settlements like Ozanisi and Oza Aibiokunla.Anioma people donot claim those settlements  because their territory donot extend to the area.The title of Ogisi is derived from Agbor and not Benin.Where else do you hear this title other than the Agbor kingdom ? Because I know that the ruler of Agbor Nta bears the title of Ogisi as well.This claim of Benin was just invented because they have longed for so long for clan status .In addition this irresponsible claim of a few native of the sub clan have been dismissed in the courts.

1. I did not really get the impression that they (Oza nogogo) claim an ethnic relationship with any Ikas.

If they migrated from Benin in the early 1500s with other Igbo residents there (like the group that followed EzeChima), why do some of the descendants of those other migrants all speak Igbo languages, but the Oza Nogogo people, who are also in an Igbo area, speak a corrupt version of Edo with Igbo loanwords? Shouldn't they instead be speaking an Igbo dialect with a few Edo loanwords?

2. If one reads certain sources one sees statements that the Oza in Edo state migrated from Aniomaland. But you do not see such statements from the Oza community that is actually there (in Edo state).

Some things to note are that:

a) . "The narrative traditions of Oza-nogogo clearly suggest original Edo settlers" - Onaiwu W. Ogbomo, Oza Nogogo : a peripheral Edo community, Nigeria magazine. 57 (3-4) July-December 1989, pages 89-95

b}. The Oza in Edo state, make no reference to origin from Aniomaland, that I have been able to find. Unless you have any evidence to the contrary.

c) The title Ogisi/Ojisi being found among the Oza nogogo does not really suggest that they have a non-Edo origin. There are some titles among the Ika that are of Benin origin, but this does not prove a Benin origin for most Ikas. The Oza-nogogo people could possibly have adopted the title of Ojisi from their neighbors.

c) I have seen some other Anioma people claim that the Oza Nogogo are Edo, actually (there was a second link I had from a different site, but that poster's original post is not showing now) :

http://www.ikaworld.com/index.php?mod=comment&article=256

"Apart from our brothers from Oza Nogogo who are recent migrant from Bini,the rest of us in Agbor speak a sub-set of Igbo as depicted in our names,market days,etc."

Is the Anioma poster in the topic in that link wrong, and you are right? If so, why?

3. I am really not able to reconcile your claim about Oza-nogogo with your criticism of the Benin Palace.

a) The Oza-nogogo claim to know exactly who they are, and that they are not Ika, but Edo speaking, and should be in Edo state with the other Oza people of Orhionmwon. They claim that they are not really of the Agbor Kingdom in terms of origin, but just under its influence due to recent (colonial) events.

What is the difference here between you saying the Igbanke claim to know exactly who they are and that they are Ika, and not Edo and that they are not of Benin originally, but were just under its cultural influence and under its political influence due to recent (colonial and post colonial) events? Your rejection of the Oza-nogogo claims and your stance on Igbanke shows a double standard in reasoning.

b) There is an Oza community in Edo state, which does not seem to be considered by anyone besides some Anioma people, to have an Anioma origin, so I wonder why you say they are "longing for clan status" when it seems that the larger "clan" (community) to which they want to be reunited with (the Oza community in Edo state) is already in Edo state. I do not think they want to claim that they are a whole, distinct clan. They seem to be claiming, very explicitly and unambiguously, that they are a subset of a "clan" (Oza community) from Edo state.

c) You argue that the Ogisi/Ojisi title (which could easily have been adopted) shows Anioma origin.

Why did you not take into account that the Benin Palace could see the odionwere practice among the Igbanke as signs of an Edo origin? Seems like another double standard in your reasoning.

And it would even be less likely that a title for the senior headman in a village would be adopted than it would be for the title of a ruler to be adopted, for the record. The odionwere practice is unlikely to be something that would be spread by Benin conquest, political annexation, the appointment of overseers or officials in non-Bini territories, etc. or basically any imperialist moves of the Benin Kingdom. It is also not something that is likely to have spread by mere trade between Bini villages and Ika villages. Rather, it is something that would probably come from actual ethnic Binis at the village level. If a Bini was to see this (the odionwere practice) it would not be that unreasonable to assume that the group was of Edo descent. (I'm not claiming that they are, I don't know enough about Igbanke to reach any really strong conclusions, but I'm saying that the belief of the Benin Palace of Edo ancestry for the Igbanke is not some huge stretch of the imagination or so unreasonable as it was portrayed.)

It would seem that you, and whoever else (in the courts, or elsewhere) is claiming the Oza-nogogo are Agbor people, are engaging in exactly what you were criticizing the Benin Palace for. Given this contradiction in your stances, it is either you do a volte-face on your Oza-nogogo claim, or you actually believe that you are an expansionist like those who you were accusing of annexation earlier.

4. In what courts was which specific claim dismissed and on what grounds?

This is what I read:

"Community

Administrative Grouping of Oza-Nogogo

From other historic reviews it is evidenced that before 1907, Oza, Igbanke and Oghada were under the control of the Oba of Benin. It was believed that the Oba effected control of these towns through prominent Chiefs and that some of the last of such Chiefs were Ayobahan and Osula. In 1907, the imperialist ideas of “Divide and Rule” reared its ugly head on Oza. As a result, Oza-Aibiokunla remaining in Akugbe District Council and Oza Nogogo grouped in Ika District Council. Two major reasons were responsible for the split of Oza into two District Councils. One was to weaken the military might of the Benin Kingdom while he other was to enhance easy administration in the absence of a good road/bridge across the Orhionwon River.

Resultant Effects of This Development

The political regrouping of Oza-Nogogo in Ika District Council negates the rule of natural justice which led to the birth of double allegiance-one to his kiths and kins of the Edo speaking area and another arising from the administrative appendage of Oza-Nogogo to the Ika/Ibo speaking people. Hence there has been endless clamour by Oza people for the return of Oza-Nogogo to where she naturally belonged. On their part, the Agbor people see such demand as a threat to the political, socio-economic and cultural existence. Hence stronger means of effecting total domination were introduced. Among such weapons were the introductions of educational system with teachers being brought in from the Ibo speaking race which marked the introduction of a new language and culture.

There was also the introduction of the imperialist made of development popularly referred to as “modernization” which attempts to de-emphasize the traditional patterns of development by ignoring cultural ties and conventions.
The significant factor that has over the years sustained the continuous yoking of Oza-Nogogo to the Ika/Ibo people is the absence of direct contact posed by the river Orhionmwon which some people ignorantly regard as a natural boundary.

Open Secrets About Oza-Nogogo

Even though some people pretend to see Oza-Nogogo people as the same and part of Ika people, some other meaningful Nigerians have at different times or occasions observed that culturally and dialectically Oza-Nogogo people are different species. They have as such suggested ways of easing tension in the area. For example the Chief J.Mariere's (JP) Commission Of Enquiry set up to arbitrate into the dispute between the Agbor and Oza-Nogogo peoples in 1951, recommended the creation of a separate court for Oza-Nogogo, the provisions of a Dispensary, a Postal Agency , Good Roads and a Financial Aid to Oza-Nogogo School. Also in 1956, Chief Obafemi Awolowo recommended the creation of a separate clan for Oza-Nogogo(Ozarra) from the then Ika Native Authority."

http://ozaelitefoundation.org/cmnty.html

2)There is no way you can compare "ADO" used by the Yoruba to "IDUU" used by the Anioma which reflects in such names like Idumwonyi and Idubor.I have never heard the "Ado" version of these names.In addition I can attest based on our own history that Agbor and Ubulu kingdoms were powerful enough to compel the Benins to fortify the moats on its eastern axis.Ubulu Uku and Agbor as we know were powerful kingdoms and desendants of captured soldiers of Benin origin can still be found in those towns.These towns were also founded before the 11th century which falls within the 7th-14th century time frame of the moats.I do however disagree that the construction of the moats ended in the 14th century because records reveals that Oba Ewuare extend the moats within his period of reign c1440-1473 which falls within the 15th century.

1.

I mean that Ado = Idu = Edo, because they can all refer to the same thing (the Edo people). But for the record, Idu is not necessarily equal to Edo and the original meaning is something different. Idumwonyi does not necessarily mean the same thing as Edomwonyi unless one defines Idu as meaning Edo. Ado is probably a Yoruba pronunciation/variation of Edo, but Idu is really something else originally.

Idumwonyi can be assumed to be a version of Edomwonyi (Edo is respectable) and Idubor can be assumed to be the same as Edobor, but they are really not the same in all cases. When Idu or Edo is used, the names can sometimes be the same, but not always.

I found out that Idu can mean:

a) the spirit of the ancestors of the land

b) The supposed ancestor of the Edo, a man named Idu

c)  the Edo people

For example, the name Idugbowa means Idu (the spirit of the ancestors of the land) has established prosperity for me. There is nothing like "Edogbowa" because Idu and Edo are not really equivalent in all circumstances in the Edo language.

The last of these meanings I listed (c) almost certainly comes later than the original meanings.

Idumwonyi should mean that Idu (the spirit of the ancestors of the land) is respected. One can interpret it as meaning the same thing as Edomwonyi, but that is a later creation.

Iduseri means that the spirit of the ancestors of the land has blessed us.

Iduorobo means that the spirit of the ancestors of the land is my doctor/healer

. . .and so on.

That is what Idu really refers to, originally, in the Edo language. However, Idu did come to take on a meaning equivalent to Edo for some names. But it really is not an equivalent, originally, from what I have seen. There are some sources written by Binis where you read that Idu was the original name that preceded Edo, and that may be correct, but Idu had even earlier meanings from what I have read and in the language, meaning (a) above is what Idu usually refers to, rather than meaning (c).


As for Igbos calling the Edo the Idu, taking definition (b) into account, this could be likened to the descendants of a man supposedly called Canaan, being called Canaanites, or the descendants of a man called Shem/Sem being called semites, the descendants of a man called Ham being called Hamites, or the descendants of a man supposedly called Cush being called Cushites by the Hebrews.


2. Yeah, my mention of 7th-14th century was actually incorrect. It is actually 8th-15th century, according to archaeologists and some historians.

3. If the moats were constructed to keep them (Agbor and Ubulu Uku) at bay, then why were the Edo constructing them before they knew of these kingdoms? This is not really a very logical suggestion.

4. If they were in some way in fear of an attack from Agbor or Ubulu Uku, how come the outer wall (not inner wall) around the central part of Benin City was around the western side, but not the eastern side of the central part of Benin?

[img]http://academics.smcvt.edu/africanart/ashley2/Benin%20layout.jpg[/img]

Why didn't they also fortify the most important part of the city around its eastern side, if they had such a compelling threat from that direction?

5. I'm not going to get into a really detailed debate about power of kingdoms, but I think I should mention that the Igala kingdom was said to be powerful, but Benin defeated them (some Igala oral history claims it was a stalemate or that both sides claimed victory, of course) after initially being at grave risk of losing to the Igala (and Benin oral tradition acknowledges this) so I'm not sure that if Benin military prowess was ever really threatened by any other groups (like Agbor or Ubulu Uku), they would shy away from acknowledging it. If they could admit that the Igala were a grave threat, instead of simply portraying the Binis as easily trouncing the Igala, there is no reason at all that they would not have similar memories or traditions about other groups, yet I have not seen anything to suggest that they had any such memory or story about Agbor or Ubulu Uku. I see no reason why the oral histories would arbitrarily choose to acknowledge the military threat of the Igala, but not do so for other groups around Benin. I don't believe that Benin considered itself as being under serious threat from Agbor or Ubulu Uku at some point.

1)On the claim that Ohaneze said 8,000 lives were lost in the Midwest, You are definitely not correct abt that figure.What Ohaneze said because I have read the document is that over 800 people were killed in Benin during the period of madness in 1967.The claim that over 40,000 Anioma lives were lost is genuine because as a member of the Izu Anioma, I am privy to accounts from all the towns that make up the Anioma area including the killings of that period.There are like I said before , about 100 Anioma towns.From our records and from the figures computed from the four periods of killings Asaba clan leads with between 2,500 to 3000 casualties followed by Ishiagu with 1500-2000 casualities.My town Igbodo had about 200 casualties yet you have some like Owa clan that had less than 100.Aboh and Ndoni each had over 500 casualties.This was based on fact and not speculation.Ishiagu was almost wiped out and the town still bears the scar of the genocide.I personally lost my aunt there.These figures like I noted earlier are based on the initial killings in the North of 1966 including the purge in the military, the killings in the non -Anioma area of the Midwest 1967, the killings in the Anioma area of the Midwest 1967 and the deaths of Anioma citizens stuck in Biafra and those who went voluntary to fight there.I therefore advise you not to insult the sensitivity of the Anioma people on this matter especially if you dont have any evidence to back it.

That was an error on my part then. I was under the impression that what was mentioned was for each person killed in the Midwest after the federal troops took over, but they clearly also mentioned the other killings throughout the entire period.

My issue is that I have not read any specific claims about the killings in Benin that would support what was stated earlier in this thread about thousands of killings or some systematic elimination or the participation of a significant fraction of the populace of the city. I have yet to see the specific number said to be killed in Benin, yet there were specific claims about the people killed in Warri and Sapele. That said, I'm not willing to accept just any specific number without some supporting evidence.

Ogbuefi 1: 3)Like I said earlier , I have roots in Esanland , we share boundaries , farm and inter marry and many Esan settlements were even founded by Anioma settlers.I donot hate Edo people, I cant.

Having roots in Esan has nothing to do with anything discussed in this thread. It really doesn't. I'm going to ignore this whole issue of who you hate or don't hate because it's not even relevant. You can tell yourself whatever you want but nobody here is really all that gullible.

It is your insults to someone who is hurt by those sad events that was the reason for my attack.

That guy wants to assign blame to a larger group based on the actions of a small fraction, but has yet to apply the same reasoning to his own group and engage in the same demonization he crafted for another group. I haven't seen anybody, and not any Binis, go to such lengths to say anything about the Anioma being so very "criminal" because of some of them participating in the crime of the invasion and occupation.

He wants to argue that the executions were due to the genocidal instinct of that group (Bini) at the sight of an Igbo/Anioma, rather than residual anger because of the invasion and takeover. He can believe what he wants, but I will not give him a free pass to start comparing some small fraction of Binis in Benin City pointing out some Anioma for executions to the German nation uniting to exterminate German Jews and other "undesirables" under the "Final Solution".

Perhaps we were all being emotional here.What I will not accept is to rewrite history, no matter how sad or bitter it is.Anioma people have forged  ahead but cant forget what happened especially the kind of reaction from the Benin, Yes, it was wrong to have invaded the Midwest but it was inevitable , Why ? Because the Midwest region had a subtantial percentage of her citizens identified as Igbos.We were not spared in the North when the killings occured nor in the Military and Ejoor who took over from Osadebay did practically nothing to make us feel we have stake in the Midwest.I have records of his visit to my my home town.Our people complained bitterly that we were killed in the North and unlike the East which was more assertive to question the justification for the killings he was mute and nothing was even made to compensate those who left the North with their lives.

I am not really sure that I understand this, so perhaps you can clear it up for me. What exactly did you want Ejoor to do? I just want specifics. He probably should have said more than he did, but I am not sure that he actually had the power to get much done. I think he was waiting to see if an agreement could be reached (about compensation, and other things) between the federal government (in which he held little authority) and the East, and if there wasn't one, just try to keep his region out of the war. He should have asked for compensation for the Anioma, yes, but I don't know that this necessarily justifies any later actions against him.

Because of the selective purge of the military class based on ethnicity, our soldiers were forced to identify themselves with their folks from the East.It is a question of survival.We have examples all over the world, The Rwanda conflict for instance involved the Congo because DRC had Tutsis and Hutus as well. or the Balkans war involving Croats, Serbs and Muslims, or Hitler annexation of Austria, It is always the case, The Midwest could not have been isolated.What was however remarkable was that in that initial thrust to the Midwest , not even one civilian life was lost and I stand by this position.

I didn't say anyone was killed immediately at the time that the initial invasion happened. I used the term "when" more generally. Nobody has ever written that those killings in Lagos street took place immediately during the invasion, so there is not really an argument here.