1. Actually, I checked my source again. Talbot is not the source of the "burial of Benin kings in Ife" claim. He's the source of the "bronze casting from Ife to Benin" claim and Egharevba read his work and altered his story about Iguegha to fit this. As for the "burial in Ife" claim, the story originates with Egharevba, after he modified his original story where Oba Eweka was buried in Usama in Benin to state that Oba Eweka was buried in Ife and every third Oba after him as well. What prompted him to modify his story is unstated, but there is no other support for the story in tradition. My sincerest apologies for the misstatement earlier. Anyway, the "burial in Ife" claim has yet to be supported by anything in Benin tradition.

2. The Oba of Benin dynasty is unlikely to have been contemporaneous with Orun Oba Ado (the dates for the Orun Oba Ado site were obtained by radiocarbon dating). I'm saying this because in order to stretch the Oba of Benin dynasty back to that time, the length of the reigns of many Obas would have to be inflated considerably.

3.Where are the Obas of Lagos buried in Benin? What was the placed called? I haven't heard of this tradition and I would like to know where it was first stated and by who.


4. My question about Iguegha was this: If you accept that this "Iguegha" from Benin tradition was indeed an Ife court artist who came to Benin, then what does that say about the Ife court? I don't accept the modification that makes his origin Ife, but for those that do, I can't see how they reconcile his name - and the fact that Edo speakers don't mutilate and massively bungle Yoruba names - with the claim about what his ethnicity was.

5. As for the uses of the Ife bronzes, I have read about the theories relating to their use in funerals, but that is unrelated to the questions I posed about the burial of the king of Benin.

Negro_Ntns: I have preached repeatedly that the descendants of Lamarudu are AfroAsiatic but people are stubborn and too sunk into European ideology to relate to the meaning in my message.  It will take a European writing it or showing a documentary of the facts before people shift in their belief.

Ado, Oba Ado, Olorogun Ado, Ologun Ado, Ita Ado. . . . . ADO is common amongst all Oduduwa children but what does it mean?  ADO means Lord.  Back in the days when the monarch was also regarded as God"s deputy on earth, the King enjoyed attributes belonging to God.  ADO is derived from semitic ADON; which in turn derived from ADONAI.  Same applies with AKIN, AKEN, AKHEN, such as Akinsemoyin, Akhenzua, Akinsuwa, Akinade. . . . all derived from AKHENATEN.   ATEN itself is crown or ADE.

Permit me while I digress but close enough to score a point on the topic of this post.  Tpia was right when she said the art is not just for entertainment, they have purpose and function.  It is surprising no one has asked the meaning of the discs sitting on the third eye of the Ife bronze heads.   This crown can be regarded as a classic masterpiece.  We have Egyptologists.  If we had Yorubalogists many mysteries would have been awakened and their emergence would conclusively have settled the matter once and for all where Yoruba came from.   This crown on Ife head is that of a king in the cult of Akhenaten - The Egyptian pharaoh who used the cosmic sun as a centerdness for awakening consciousness and enlightenement.

This is interesting, although I wasn't speculating about the origin of Yoruba. Open a thread about this, or start a website, or (preferably) refer us to a book or write a book on this.

When arguments are presented in full, they are often easier to accept.


As for Akenzua it is "a kon ze uwa" (one has to appear modest (play the fool) before attaining prosperity) according to a Benin tradition recorded in the book Art, innovation, and politics in eighteenth-century Benin. I don't see the Akhenaten angle.

tpia@:

surely we wont be fed some magical story about how bronze casting just suddenly sprung up in benin overnight with no outside influence from anywhere.

There you go!!! You're finally starting to understand my objections. Stop and think about this question as it relates to Ife and the 30 or so bronzes found there. Also, as I have posted elsewhere, the methods by which the Ife and Benin art was made are technically different. Like I said, I do have to go, but I'll be back later today.

@ tpia, and Negro nations, I'll reply you guys in detail later on today. I have somewhere else to be right now.


@ tpia, no Bini is not ethnically homogeneous, but then again, few groups of people truly are. I'll reply this in detail later today.

@ [s]Negro Nations, the notion that the Kings of Benin were buried in Ife was quite literally due to the work of Percry A. Talbot, a European, in the 1920s. It is therefore interesting to read that you don't think much of the accounts of Europeans when they recorded earlier traditions. Egharevba read Talbot's work (among other sources) and he changed his earlier work to reflect that tradition. [/s]However, since you claim they were buried in Ife, can you tell me how members of the Okaeben buried the king of Benin in Ife? Or if not them, can you tell me who was responsible for this? Also can you tell me where in Ife they were buried? Please don't say Orun Oba Ado, because the dates for that site are much earlier (6th-10th century) than the dates suggested for the Obas of Benin, and nothing has been found from excavations there to link it with Benin. There are other places in Yorubaland called Ado, anyway.

And I do not think you answered the one question (your interpretation) that I requested that you answer.


EDIT: Actually, I checked my source again. Talbot is not the source of the "burial of Benin kings in Ife" claim. He's the source of the "bronze casting from Ife to Benin" claim and Egharevba read his work and altered his story about Iguegha to fit this. As for the "burial in Ife" claim, the story originates with Egharevba, after he modified his original story where Oba Eweka was buried in Usama in Benin. What prompted him to modify his story is unstated, but there is no other support for the story. My apologies for the misstatement. Anyway, the "burial in Ife" claim has yet to be supported by anything else.

Negro_Ntns:

Physics,

Did you actually say this?   Isnt that the case with Omo N'Oba's claim that Bini begot Ife?  His ambitious remark has been repeated and falsely constituted into a new history, one departed from the acknowledged ancestry of his forefathers from Ife.  

Let's use a little common sense.

Is Iguegha a Yoruba man to you?

The Binis did not totally screw up, mutilate and bungle the other words and names they got from Yorubas. The Binis call Shango Esango, for example and those few Bini names which are Yoruba in origin preserve an almost perfect correspondence to their Yoruba source. And there are a few other examples of how Yoruba names or words are able to retain their basic form, appearance and structure in Edo which I could give if you require more evidence. There is undeniable influence of Yoruba on Benin, but whenever we see that influence, we see that the Yoruba name and structure is more or less preserved despite going through a Bini filter. We do not see this relationship of a Yoruba to Edo transfer maintained with the name "Iguegha," which leads to doubts about such a transfer taking place.

Additionally, Oghene is a pure Edoid word found among multiple Edoid groups (not just Binis) and is not derived from a Yoruba word, contrary to certain spurious claims circulating around.

Now if they (the Edo) thought that the ruler at "Uhe" (Ife?) was the Oghene (the so called "Hooguanee", not the Ooni (which they are certainly capable of pronouncing!! - just as they are certainly capable of pronouncing several other Yoruba titles), and if they claimed that Iguegha was one of the Oghene's court artists, what exactly were they claiming? Stop and think about that and give me your interpretation. This is the only statement of mine that I really want your interpretation of and an answer from you about. You can ignore the rest of what I post if you want.

Concerning histories and what Oba Erediauwa was referring to, he explained a tradition, that is all. He did not say "Bini begot Ife" since he specifically said Ife had kings before Oduduwa as acknowledged by certain Yoruba traditions.

He also mentioned that there was some degree of conflation between the man Oduduwa and the Yoruba creator gods (in fact, in some parts of Yorubaland, Oduduwa is considered female, a clear sign of the conflation of deities with a person), leading to a certain mythical interpretation of Oduduwa and the consequent habit of making him into a demigod from heaven or the "first" of the Yoruba kings, rather than an outsider after the Yorubas already had their first kings.

He then tied the name (Oduduwa) to Benin using a Benin story about the name, which was not difficult because it is a very very "Edoid" (Bini or Esan, specifically) sounding name. For example, one of the 31 Ogisos of Benin was even named (as his royal name) Oduwa (Ohuede was followed by Oduwa who was followed by Obioye, who was followed by Arigho and so on). Oduwa is just one of multiple Edo names with a similarity to Oduduwa, of course.

The different purported etymologies for Oduduwa are not any more satisfactory than the other whether we are talking  the Yoruba one or the Benin one, but the obvious Edoid appearance of the name was no doubt a motivation for Oba Erediauwa to repeat the stories from decades earlier about Oduduwa coming from Benin.

Then of course, there is Richard Burton's 1863 claim (he visited Benin) that Benin traditions held that Benin was once "the power paramount, and the civilizer of Yoruba." What is specifically meant by this isn't all that clear, because Burton has a tendency for fancy and extravagant language, but he does seem to hint at a different type of relationship than what has been presented so strongly in other places. There is a strange contrast between this claim and the other version of events that has gained authoritativeness and acceptance.

I do not think this is merely all to create a new history although I understand why you would see it that way. The Oba is entitled to his perspective as a descendant of Oduduwa, and you don't have to agree with him, but that theory is not all as easily dismissible as some would think.

I look forward to your reply. Adios for now.

alj_harem:

You don't care about the video but I got the info from the Video

The Yorubas in Ife taught the Benins act of bronze making. There is nothing questionable with that and Yes it is a Nigerian Phenomena or not, My case is that the Ifes taught the Benins. There is nothing questionable about that.

I am sure they have done some analysis and in fact benins are part of the yoruba group as far as I am concerned. I have a Bini surname kosoko and speak yoruba, what does that make me, yorubanised bini man ?

The history is clear. You do physics, you know of C13 NMR and half life age analysis, so there is no claim. it was analysised   

Look. The history is not clear. There was a completely different tradition about brass casting claimed in 1897, but I did not repeat it here, because that tradition is also false. Egharevba was not the be all and end all of Edo history, anyway. Besides, the two names I have read (Iguegha and the other name) are not Yoruba.

As for radiocarbon dates, you need not just claim that there was an analysis without stating what it is that you're referring to. If you can produce a radiocarbon date for an Ife bronze, let me know. I think maybe you mean a thermoluminescence (TL) analysis.

As for my comment about it being a "Nigerian phenomenon" I thought it would have been obvious what that implied (that cire perdue casting had reached southern Nigeria by the 10th century), but somehow you missed it.

To clarify what I posted above (under the moniker PhysicsQED, before the spambot banned me for a long post in another thread) a little bit, I mean that violent and/or unpleasant actions and rituals performed based on a certain religious worldview, are not really the same as deliberate and intentional worship of evil and do not amount to the deliberate and intentional promotion of evil. Cultures and the societies within those cultures that practiced these violent or unpleasant rituals, ceremonies, or actions did not necessarily lack a moral code or have a largely inverted or twisted moral sense, just because they were willing to go to extreme lengths in the name of their religious beliefs.

Rgp92:

If you watch the video, it says that Ife taught Benin.

I am not concerned with the video but with the claim, which the video is not the source for.

I was just asking Alj harem to look at the statement with a bit more common sense before repeating questionable claims.

.

tpia@:


the earliest ife bronzes are dated to around the 6th century.

any comments on that?

If this is accurate, you should start a thread about it, or publish it somewhere. I was talking about radiocarbon dating of art cast with the lost wax method. Maybe you're talking about something else, like when Ife first showed signs of significant occupation. Anyway, if this is true, it doesn't really affect my earlier statement. I guess you could say I was nitpicking, and if that was annoying, then I apologize.

Shave off the middle part and keep waxing. You'll go far in life.

.

6. With regard to defeated kings, it is not always easy to tell which heads are those of defeated kings, and which heads are just those of prominent people or chiefs, but one very glaring and obvious clue is the facial expression on the head itself:

1:



Sometimes heads like these are mistakenly labeled as heads of Obas of Benin or chiefs by Western museums or books, and it is a bit of work to distinguish all of the defeated people from the people who are just being depicted normally or favorably, but I think everybody can tell that this kind of depiction is not a depiction of a glorious figure. He almost looks like the expression when his head was cut off was frozen as on his face as his death mask. This particular head has certain facial scarifications around its mouth that would not be seen in Anioma, but I have seen other trophy heads that do not have these marks:

2:


(In case you're wondering what the marks on the forehead and between the eyebrows are:

"Also, the double vertical forehead slits on ivory belt masks (Fig. 5), commemorative trophy heads, and Ododua masks are not scars at all but an artistic representation of character. Known as "can of eye," the slits signify determination, seriousness of purpose, and, as a friend informed Joseph Nevadomsky, "men [or women; e.g., the Idia queen mother heads] of substance" (Nevadomsky 1986:43)." - from the 1995 article "The clothing of political identity: Costume and scarification in the Benin Kingdom" by Joseph Nevadomsky and Ekhaguosa Aisien. The 1986 article they cite is "The Benin Bronze Horseman as the Ata of Idah." African Arts 19, 4;40-47, 85. by Joseph Nevadomsky.)


The first and second images above are from the Bakarat Gallery, which has museums in California, London, and Dubai.

3:



4:





The third and fourth images are from the book The Art of Benin by Paula Ben-Amos.

In the third picture, the individual on the horse could very easily have his head cut off by the central figure and cast into a brass head like the one in the first picture above.

In the fourth picture, it is interesting that they note in the caption on the picture that there is a trophy head in the British museum from the time of Oba Akengbuda.

5. First, if Egharevba remembered the king of this or that kingdom being defeated, then it corresponds perfectly with independent European accounts from Portuguese, English, French, Dutch, and German sources which reveal the extent of Benin war and conquest on some of those around them.


Second, it is a fact that very independently of Egharevba, multiple Benin people from the older generation attested to the fact that the heads of defeated/rebellious kings were cut off and sent to the brass casters guild to be cast in brass. They were then kept as war trophies by the palace or sent to the son/descendant or successor of the defeated rebel king as a warning for him not to toe the rebellious line that his father or predecessor did. This is something that you should have known as an "expert". This particular practice (of cutting off heads and casting them in brass) makes no particular reference to the Anioma but was a very very general tradition. That some of the defeated kings mentioned by Egharevba are from Anioma areas does not mean that he had any particular agenda intended to slight them.

But the fact of the matter is, defeated kings' heads were definitely cut off. This is in contrast to false stories about the Iyoba's servants engaging in farming or about grown men assaulting an old woman over a few yams and then running off to hide somewhere.

4. The notion that Benin was severely tested in the Benin-Igala war derives ENTIRELY from Egharevba's publication of stories that he collected. It does NOT derive from some earlier published Igala historian or some Westerner's writings. Therefore it is extremely ignorant and misleading to accuse Jacob Egharevba of an inability to portray Benin's external relations in a less powerful and glorious light.


I also read where you argued with Negro_Ntns about Oba Ewuare and Akure. You kept arguing with him about it but everything you were arguing for really comes from the stories that were collected by Egharevba. I find it very hypocritical to accuse others of selective uses of sources, but fail to mention that any talk of conquest of Akure under Oba Ewuare is either directly from, or is an extension of the work of Jacob Uwadiae Egharevba, who you have repeatedly insisted is completely unreliable when discussing the external relationships of Benin with other groups just so you could push your Ubulu Uku claim.

18)More on Egharevba, The stories you gave abt Obanosa and Ohen are as far as I am concerned issues concerned within the Benin political definition.It has little or nothing to do with external relationship with other groups be it Anioma , Igala or Akure. As for the war with Igala which actually inspired our OMU title, the Igalas had made significant advance towards Benin capturing as booty the royal mask of the Oba (it now forms a regalia of the Attah of Igala).It was the assistance rendered by Idia who had acquired foreign firearms that saved the Benin from a decisive defeat.

1. So now war with Igala inspired your Omu title! I think you mean Queen Idia of Benin inspired your Omu title!

2. Actually, it is the Igalas that have it on record that their city was invaded, while the Benins merely remember that they (the Igala) got to the gates of the city of Benin, not that they entered it. There's nothing that proves they would have gotten even further and actually won, even if there were no guns there.

I wonder how

a) they got the hip mask when they didn't get anywhere near the Oba
b) got the hip mask when the Oba only wears it on ceremonial occasions
c) got the mask but were too incompetent to capture the Oba and those around him; what's the importance of a hip ornament (the mask) to a war?
d) kept the mask after they were invaded by a force which you have admitted had guns and which marched on their city and which would probably not have let them keep the mask if they had actually stolen it.


3. That mask could possibly be something suggesting an old, non-military connection between Benin and Igala monarchies that some Igala oral traditions attest to. You should already be familiar with those claims of a Benin Igala connection that are attested to by both some Igala and by Egharevba, completely independently of each other. Egharevba claimed the first Attah of Igala was from Benin and there is evidence (as J.S Boston showed) that one Igala monarchy was replaced by a new dynasty so this could have something to do with the alleged connection. As an expert, you should already be aware of the work of J.S. Boston and A.J. Shelton where they were both were informed of claims by Igalas that their monarchy came from Benin. I don't at all believe that their monarchy did come from Benin, by the way, because of other things about it that I have read that I won't get into in this thread, but it is strange that they (Igala people themselves) had those old traditions of some pre-war/non-military connection with Benin.

17)Sure nothing everything written by these historians Anioma or Benin should be taken seriously. I once had a long arguement with Omojie or Agbontaen from Owa.But what is significant is that there are moats as well in Ominije(Agbor Nta) which have not been comprehensively studied.My understanding is that it could a reaction to the moats that was dugged in Benin.Judging from the antiquity of Ominije it would match more or less with those early moats in Benin.

So now you're guessing about the ages of moats? People take all the time to employ radiometric dating, archaeomagnetic dating, etc. and here you just start assigning dates like you're some self appointed "ogbuefi" of archaeology. This is just too ridiculous. Keep this stuff to yourself. I would be insulting myself by even condescending to discussing this.

16)"Rebel Chiefs in Benin", lol.Tht could not have been the reason.I think what must have frustrated the missionaries was the notorious image of Benin as a city of blood and human sacrifice.In Yorubaland , they were even in Civil wars while the Church kept expanding.I dont think the rebel Benin chiefs were such a threat considering the fact that the defences of "Great Benin" collapsed just after two weeks of bombardment wih the Oba and some of his chiefs fleeing to the bush. From what I read from Prof Igbafe's book on Administration of Benin(1897-1938) there was nothing to suggests that the Benins were so rebellious. I will suggest you read on the Ekumeku Movement(1898-1911) and see what rebellion is all about.My great grand father from what I was told was a veteran of those wars and even had a war title.

The rebels I'm referring to are those Benin chiefs (I'm pretty sure you know them, Mr. Expert) that harassed people who went to Benin and pledged their loyalty to the new British administration. This was going on until 1899 and you should know about that already since you claim to be an expert. It makes no sense for them to establish anything when people who go to Benin are still being "harassed" for disloyalty to the defeated Benin kingdom.

15)Yes, Universities are categorised. And the response you gave clearly reveals to me that you are just an uncompromising tribalist.As an Anioma Igbo as much as we are clearly of Igbo stock, we were never part of the Eastern Region whose regional university was UNN and I am aware many non Igbos were VCs of the institution.Being an Igbo especially from the Mdwest was not a criteria as such.I will advice that you google (since that is your expertise) on what led to Prof Ndili "leaving" the insttitution.

1. Eastern region in 1980? Nope. So whether you were or weren't part of it in earlier decades is irrelevant. Also, I don't care what led to him leaving the institution. Funny how you start bringing up Njoku and Dike instead of Anioma academics to talk about academic achievement, but when you need to claim that Dr. Ndili's Igbo ethnicity would not be a factor in him being a VC at UNN, you try to imply that he would be seen as a "non-Easterner" and that this would cancel out the advantage that his Igbo ethnicity would give him in his selection.

2. "Many" non-Igbo vice chancellors? Is your use of the word "many" here actually correct? List and compare the number of Igbo vice chancellors to non-Igbo and come back with a different comment.

3. I have ignored all your other insults about Edo people in your responses to exotik or other posters in these recent discussions because it's not really interesting to me what your perceptions are. However I think it is really out of place for you to call me a tribalist.You know that you are a tribalist and you don't really care, although you don't seem to have the guts to admit to what you are. You know what you are and you know why I will continue to call you what you are and you only have to come out and admit it and it'll clear up your conscience. Just say what you are and you'll get a burden off your chest.

Oh and by the way, nobody and certainly not any Bini man cares even the least whether someone like you respects Dr. Emovon, when, out of the other side of your mouth, you spend all that time insulting his people. I also happen to recall that  Dr. Emovon's wife is a daughter of Oba Akenzua II, and therefore she and her family are descendants of Oba Eweka II - who you very much wanted people to believe had used one of his wives for human sacrifice because of some affair. Keep your "respect" (if that's what you call it) to yourself.

Ogbuefi 1: 14)ON SLAVES BEING THE FIRST CONVERTS IN IGBOLAND
This was the case everywhere but there are a few exceptions.My great great grandmother brought Christainity to my home town and to all of my knowledge she had nothing to do with slavery. She was a wealthy trader involved  in long distance trade mainly in hand woven cloth and it was in the course of her travels that she got to become a Christain and this was in the late nineteenth century.Because of he wealth and respect she commanded in the community she was able to convince some natives of my town to become Christains. And since  members of the new faith were scattered all over the community in small numbers , they asked for and were granted lands which became known as Ani Ogige Ndi Ukah(the lands of the Christain Era) in 1898. As the community grew through levies and grants fom the established church in the Asaba area they created their own central school in 1901 which is now the present Olie Primary School , Igbodo.We did not wait for government to give us schools.Ours was based on communal self help a trend which is still the case in most Igbo communities.

The school in Igbodo was also created using church money? Wow. No comment. I didn't know the whole Catholic thing ran this deep.

13)ON THOMAS IBUSA
Yes it was founded by white missionaries so what is the big deal ? These missionaries were responsible for giving us the first batch of Western educated people and the fact remains that we had one of this calibre before Benin not matter how "humiliating" it is to the Edo pride.Even prior to 1928 when this famous school was founded. a notable Anioma son Rev SW Martin the first graduate from an American University (1917) had returned back to his roots(in 1922) to established the Pilgrims Baptist Mission which included many primary, secondary and technical scools as well as hospitals.He is not a white man.His Mission was responsible for the establishment of the Pilgrims Baptist Mission Secondary School Ewohimi 1964 which is the third oldest secondary school in Esan ; also is the Pilgrims Technical College Ofagbe in Isoko , you will see that this man's work benefitted even people beyond Aniomaland.So to claim that the whites were only responsible for opening up Aniomaland, is to me a display of blatant ignorance.
Mind you Anioma people are proud of their connections with the Catholic, Anglican and Baptist Churches and I dont think these churches did not open such stations of enlightenment in Benin except that it came relatively late.
But what is suprising was when in their usual display of tribal sentiments over qualification, the small Benin Catholic Community attempted to impose an Edo via all sorts of blackmail and intimidation on the same grounds (they usually make on the VC slot in UNIBEN) that a Benin must be made Arch Bishop.As a Catholic I saw that development as a sad on especially as they took the matter to court.

1. Lol! You think it's "humiliating" it's actually slightly amusing. I did read about how Binis were behind because of the colonial system before I started debating anything in this thread with you so it was strange to me to find out that those who had such a clear advantage over the Binis in education could not start an earlier secondary school without white missionaries.

2. As for all that other stuff, the majority of Bini Christians are not Catholic, Whenever a visible but miniscule fraction of a population does something, in your mind, it equals the wishes and actions of the entire group. Regarding Uniben, you could just admit that you had no idea what you were talking about. The Uniben case was the clearest case of tribal sentiments (anti-Bini) over qualification that I can recall in Nigeria in recent times. Neither Nwanze, nor anybody else who had occupied that position had a career as accomplished as Osagie, period.

5. It was naive of you to assume that I couldn't list many more people than I did in that other thread, but I didn't because I wanted the list in that thread to have a certain character with respect to the different groups in the state.

For example, instead of listing more businesspeople like Hayford Alile, Claire Ighodaro, Osagie Imasogie, Eghosa Omoigui, John Obayuwana, etc., I included Modupe Ozolua (a cosmetics mogul and philanthropist) because she is Owan (parents from Sabongida Ora) instead of Bini. I did not want to make such a slanted Bini list at all and that's why I limited the list and made sure it had a certain composition.

I would have preferred to list some other people but I felt that the list had to be diversified not only between academia, business, entertainment, government and politics,  culture, and art/music but also between the different groups in the state.

If you look through the final form of that list carefully you'll see that while there are slightly more Binis listed there than for any other one group (16 out of 38) there are slightly more non-Binis listed than Binis. It would not be fair to fill the list with 80% Binis when it's supposed to be a list representing Edo state. Not only did I make a list to counter the impression that only a few people could be listed for Edo state which some other people's earlier lists had given, I spread it out as evenly as I could among the different zones.

I think the impression you have has more to do with Binis (and other groups in Edo state, for that matter) not "promoting" themselves significantly than it has to do with your perceptions being reasonable. If the Binis keep quiet and don't make claims about having this achiever or that achiever in some field then of course it's going to seem like the only thing they have is their ancient past (although, even that past is being attacked by some people (both Western and African)). I remember actually arguing with an Igbo member on this forum (Onlytruth)  who was trying to tell me that only Igbos could perform well in Nigeria when appointed to positions by governments. Part of me thought of mentioning Abraham Ordia, Hayford Alile, Stephen Oronsaye, Ifueko Omoigui, etc. but I had long realized that such posters on this forum were beyond help and I decided to let him believe what he wanted and revel in his own ignorance.

I think the nonchalance of most (but definitely not all) Binis to drawing up lists to show that they produce highly competent or accomplished people has to do with their past and an emphasis on the Edo culture and ancient history, which is in all honesty still a more visible and inspiring glory than any modern achievements in Nigeria could be.

Thus, drawing up long lists of achievers because they are Bini would merely be tedious and dull work. There is already enough inspiration in the culture, so why would they start searching for every achiever of Edo descent? Something I noticed about the minorities is that they don't put much effort into listing/mentioning "achievers" from their groups.

For example, I didn't even know  Dr. Osagie was a past president of Nigeria's biochemistry society, and I didn't find out that he had hundreds of citations on his research until his name came up in that VC tussle and I decided to find out more about him. To be honest, he is accomplished, yet the Binis would have never even mentioned him as a "big name" the way you were mentioning the much less academically accomplished Dr. Uwadia.

It was only when someone was sure that my home state can only produce ashawos, or when someone could make the state seem less productive (in terms of human capital) than some other states by producing an abridged list, that I would even bother to engage in such a dull activity as drawing up lists of achievers.


When it comes down to it, this is what I think.

If, a Bini (Aiwerioba) can be the first president of Nigeria's engineering society half a century ago, a Bini (Anthony Osagie) can be a president of Nigeria's biochemistry society in recent decades, a Bini (Emmanuel Emovon) can be the first Nigerian Ph.D in a whole academic field (chemistry) and possibly (but it's not proven) the first black African Ph.D in that field or his sub-field in Africa, a Bini (Osagie Imasogie) can advise the U.S.government on AIDS, a Bini (Giwa-Osagie) was president of the West African College of Surgeons, a Bini (Ephraim Idusogie) is selected as regional secretary of the World Health Organizations' food program in Africa, a Bini can be the first female Ph.D in philosophy in Nigeria, a Bini (Iyahen) can be the first Nigerian in a mathematical science to get a D.Sc as a higher doctorate, if a Bini woman (Claire Ighodaro) can be made a CBE for services to business in Britain, a Bini woman (Ifueko Omoigui) can reform Nigeria's tax system in a short time and be appointed a member of the UN Committee of Experts on International Cooperation in Tax Matters by the UN Secretary General and be recognized by the World Economic Forum and many other accolades, and if a Bini (Dan Izebaye) can be one of the foremost scholars of African literature from Nigeria, and many other things that I am ignorant of (this was by no means an exhaustive list  ) despite the fact that the Binis are outnumbered 50 to 1 by other groups and were initially academically behind several groups during the earlier colonial era, then no sensible person would accept claims that there is some sort of intellectual/academic inadequacy on the part of the Binis compared to those around them. Any claims suggesting such a thing would have to be viewed as propaganda from someone with an agenda.

Considering that I didn't even know about Osagie's past professional history until the VC debate came up, there are undoubtedly several other Binis that I don't know of that refute this bizarre claim about some sort of Bini academic/intellectual inadequacy.

And like most Binis, I honestly cannot be bothered to search for all of those Benin people when the issue of Bini competence and ability is - in my mind and probably that of most other Benin people - a question already resolved by history.

I won't keep going with this though. I will let you have the last laugh, and post whatever full ("exhaustive') list you've been so desperate to post and let you beat your chest like you were so desperate to do at the beginning of this thread (and like you did when you first brought up that nonsense about Nwanze).  It's not important to me to keep going. To honest, intelligent, and impartial observers it will be clear that the Binis are no slackers academically.

4.

a) For Dr. Uwadia (computer scientist) I could mention Nosakhare (Nosa) Omoigui , a computer scientist with more research accomplishments (in terms of publications, patents, and citations) than Charles Uwadia (incidentally, both of them specialized in the same research area: software).

Or Daniel Irowa Okunbor (if you must have someone with a Ph.D) a computer science professor, and one time visiting research scientist at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory, whose diverse research is similarly far ahead of Dr. Uwadia's in importance.

b)  For Linus Ajabor (gynaecologist) I could mention Dr. Osato Giwa-Osagie (gynaecologist) a former president of the West African College of Surgeons and a pioneer of the implementation of IVF in West Africa.

c) For Zulu Sofola, I could mention Sophie Oluwole (ethnically Bini), the first female Ph.D in philosophy in Nigeria.

(I'll decline to claim that she's the first female Ph.D in philosophy from black Africa, though.)

Or I could mention Professor Dan Izevbaye, one of the pioneering African literature scholars from Nigeria and one of Nigeria's foremost literary scholars for decades. He was recently described as "Unarguably one of Africa's best literary scholars of all time" and as a "legendary critic" by an interviewer (Ezechi Onyerionwu). He has been described similarly in many other sources and is considered an icon and pioneer among African literature scholars.

d) For Chukwuedo Nwokolo, renowned medical practitioner and National merit award recipient in 1983

I could mention Tiamiyu Bello-Osagie, also a renowned medical practitioner and recipient of the Commander of the Order of the Niger (CON) in 1982. There is a street named after him in Lagos; there are scholarships named after him, and more.

e) For professor H.U. Isichei (psychiatrist; don't know why or how he's a "big name" though; what did he actually do?), I could mention professor Ayo O. Binitie, one of the early pioneering psychiatrists in Nigeria after whom a prize and memorial lecture are named by Nigeria's psychiatry association.

f) With regard to Elizabeth Isichei, I honestly can't blame you for not knowing this, because I was shocked when I found out myself, but she is actually a Caucasian woman married to a (Delta) Igbo man. I can even provide her picture if you need it. She's 100% oyibo.

I would have mentioned Phillip Igbafe here, though. Since she is not even an actual Anioma woman, there's no point really going further, however.

g) For P.A.I. Obanya, I could list Ephraim Idusogie (a former FAO secretary and lead nutritionist of the United Nations FAO/WHO Food and Nutrition Commission for Africa in the 70s), or Dr. Egbe Osifo-Dawodu, who managed the Human Development Group at the World Bank (she was also one of the founders of the African University of Science and Technology, Abuja (ASUT).). And yet another eminent personality at the UN that I could mention is Ambassador Shola J. Omoregie (look him up), who served the UN in various important positions for over three decades. I could also mention Hayford Alile, who headed the Centre for Management Development in Lagos, headed the Lagos Stock Exchange (LSE) and was the pioneer Director-General of the Nigerian Stock Exchange (from 1979-1999).  Or I could mention Professor Osagie Imasogie, a member of the Wilson Council of the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars in Washington DC (a famous think tank, like the institution that  was headed by Dr. Onwuachi that you mentioned), and a Senior Consultant to the President’s Emergency Plan For Aids Relief (PEPFAR) in the U.S, among other achievements.

h) For Dr. Augustine Esogbue

I could mention Dr. Christopher Oriakhi, a highly cited materials scientist working in industry, and a Fellow of the Royal Society of Chemistry (for "outstanding contributions" to the "advancement or application of chemical science", with many publications and over 60 patents.

You can see Christopher Osagie Oriakhi's work on that same google scholar or scopus and other sites.

If you don't know some of the people I mentioned above, do look them up, for your own edification about the capabilities of the Binis. I didn't recognize a single name that you mentioned in your list except for Elizabeth Isichei (who is actually a white woman) but I looked the others up and I was pleasantly surprised by a few of them (such as Augustine Esogbue; many kudos to him for his research!).

I understand why you're proud of your people, but that isn't a good reason to engage in baseless speculation about the capabilities of other groups that you obviously don't know much about. You keep insisting that you know so much about the Binis, but you're just clueless. I can hardly type in a Bini name in a search engine without stumbling across some professor, engineer, doctor, businessman, etc.  Last week I tried looking up one of my (distant) relatives (to see if he had a facebook), and I stumbled across a professor in the U.S with the same first name and a similar last name. 

The Binis are not compiling "exhaustive" lists, probably because we're too sure of ourselves to need to, but that shouldn't lead you to think we'll sit back and accept claims from ignorant people about being less capable than people of other groups.

(The Edo aren't compiling "exhaustive" lists yet - although I'm sure that with enough insults, derogatory statements or putdowns from their "countrymen" claiming that the Binis are a thing of the past or are "ordinary", some Binis will compile that list and engage individuals like yourself in a full scale name dropping competition.)

Your concern here is that because the Benins are no match to the Aniomas in such big names, It is no use bringing up such an issue. But you have brought up names and as usual it included the Benin born Prof Ekhaguere, Im finish the name you sabi ? This little list is far from being exhaustive and it includes the likes of Prof Charles Uwadia (President Nigerian Computer Society) , Prof Linus Ajabor(President Nigerian Gynaecologists and Obstericians- he is frommy home town Igbodo), Prof Zulu Sofola (the first female professor of theatre arts in Africa), Prof Chukwuedo Nwokolo ( renowned medical practioner and National merit recipient 1980), the intellectual couple Prof H.U and Prof (Mrs) Elizabeth Isichei both of UNIJOS( incidentally on the list of notable academicians from UNIJOS I could not find Prof Emovon's name), Prof P.A.I Obanya( Asst Director General UNESCO and Chairman of the Presidential Committee on Education- I consider him next to Prof Babs Fafunwa), Prof Augustine Esogbue( renowned Professor of System Engineering) and many others.I will advice you dont bring up issue again.

1. It's funny that you think I'm claiming superiority. I'm not. You're the one who is so desperate for a name dropping "match" and it was evident in one of your earliest responses on this thread.

2. Your mention of Uwadia is really very funny to me. Is he supposed to be a "big name"? This must be a joke.

Also, is the Nigerian Computer Society an "educational institution"? No, it is not. The same thing could also be said about the Nigerian Gynaecologists and Obstetricians society that you mentioned. Yet you were criticizing my mention of Nigeria' engineering society.

And although Charles Uwadia is a Ph.D holder, from available information, past presidents (like the more important Olatunji Odegbami) of that society have not needed to be or were not Ph.D holders, just like the engineering society's early presidents.

This is yet another double standard and an example of glaring hypocrisy.

When Aiwerioba was the first president of Nigeria's engineering society almost half a century ago it was dismissable because of his ethnicity, but when Uwadia is now president of Nigeria's computer society or somebody from your hometown is president of a gynaecology society, it suddenly makes that person a big name!

3. As for your comment "( incidentally on the list of notable academicians from UNIJOS I could not find Prof Emovon's name), " that's laughable. Tanko Ishaya, an obscure lecturer in internet computing, is also on that list. He probably added himself there. I could add somebody else to that list right now if I felt like it. This is just a very silly comment. There are all sorts of "Whos Who" sites that I can find Emovon on but can't find all but one of the people you mentioned in your own list on. Is there any significance to that? Of course not. Those sites choose who they want to accept.

pleep:

^When kids look up Average black act score and see 16.9 how do u think that makes them feel?? I don't give a damn about some  racial scientist.
it's damaging for black kids to see 17 as thier average compared to an Asian 23 and not have that tempered out by high African scores.
What do you think that does to the mentality of disadvantaged blacks who already think they are inferior?

For the record I know: (African & Asian scores are only high because immigrants tend to focus on education)

Yeah. You're completely right. It's actually far better that African Americans themselves see that the discrepancy is not racially based.

But the second issue this might bring up is why African Americans would be under performing on those tests. Addressing this issue might be a good thing for both blacks and non-blacks in America. The blacks will be able to better identify what the real problems are (people can't always claim that the tests are culturally biased as an excuse).

And the non-blacks will no longer be able to so blindly and casually dismiss the statements from AAs that many of the issues they face today are due to past discrimination against their ancestors in areas like education.

2. When I brought up how Emovon had already been VC before many other groups had produced a VC, after you insinuated that a Bini academic had never merited a VC position at Uniben, you responded by dropping names like Eni Njoku, it became clear that you were dropping names along ethnic lines rather than answering my question about what entire field the Anioma were first in Nigeria to produce a Ph.D in.

You started this with that Nwanze claim implying academic superiority and I merely responded by saying that an Anioma man was a VC only after Emovon and that you have yet to show me which entire field they produced the first Ph.D in Nigeria from. I'm sure the Anioma were the first in some field but like I said, it's ironic and surprising that you would have to look so hard for that field given your explicitly stated perception of superiority. Keep your perceptions, but at least be consistent or reasonable about them.

Why you pretend that you dont like mentioning names I have come to know better that it is actually your trade mark.

1. You tried to start a name dropping competition several pages ago in one of your banned posts. I declined, although you didn't see my banned response. I can produce the specific quote you made right here:

No group and I would not want to be contracdicted have not produced eminent personalities, The point is many and in what capacity ? List them I will give you at least 10 Anioma names in return

So when I say I wasn't into dropping names for bragging competitions, I was quite serious. I only entered that "famous people from your state" thread because some people on this forum (nairaland) had already stated very authoritatively that this state (Edo) produces only ashawos (it does export prost itutes, but I doubt that these even outnumber the scammers/fraudsters and drug couriers from some other states, anyways) and because some people who had already put down lists for Edo state weren't really representing seriously for Edo state but were instead giving the impression that there were only 4 or 5 people to mention for Edo state when other people seemed to be mentioning any and every person that they could for their state.

Also, that thread was more or less cordial, unlike your superiority based comparisons and unlike most of the Igbo vs. Yoruba comparisons on this site.

12)You used the word "intellectual base" I wonder if an intellectual base should just be restricted in description to a "political think tank", Of course you were biased. An intellectual base of such description has a status of an educatiional institute(ecept you dont know the meaning of the word "Institute" ; administrative officers including career diplomats are expected to have gone through the competitive intellectual house the institute has got to offer.

1. I did not use the word "intellectual base", their website did. Go to their website and see how they describe themselves. This is just one of many reading errors from you but I didn't include it above because it's trivial.

2. Political think tanks are in no way real educational institutions and I would not accept the claim that they are for any country in the world. I don't care the least bit for this evasion and it's not worth my time to debate this. You can hold whatever view you want to about political think tanks; it's not going to bother me.

3. Using your bizarre reasoning about vice chancellors and other positions, Dr. Eghosa Osaghae, who has also been a director at a political think tank, has had a more "glorious career" than Dr. Chike Onwuachi that you mentioned, since Dr. Osaghae has been vice chancellor at two universities.

4. Once again, you go and put me in a position where it would seem like I was putting someone down, when that's not actually my goal, just as you did with Nwanze and your refusal to acknowledge reality about his academic profile vis a vis Osagie. Sorry, but Maduemezia was nowhere near being nominated for a Nobel prize in physics and there is nothing he did that would enter into in the realm of even being considered for such a prize. You obviously have no idea what a Nobel prize in physics is, or the kind of academic/intellectual achievement necessary to attain it if you are actually making this claim. Also, you have not even bothered to read up on the nomination process. For the record, it is a strict rule of the Swedish Academy that the different nominees for any Nobel prize for any one year are not released until 50 years after that year. Since it has not been 50 years since Professor Maduemezia even started publishing any research, I would be very interested in knowing how it was leaked that he was nominated for a Nobel prize in a year in which he had yet to even publish any research. Maybe you should not delve into areas in which you have not bothered to actually do any investigation.

3. A more glorious career? Based on the VC position? Okay, but Nwanze, Anao, Oherkhoraye, etc. had the VC position and none of them had as "glorious" a career as Anthony Osagie.

Anyway Ekhaguere is no slacker: http://www.math.buffalo.edu/mad/PEEPS/ekhaguere_gos.html

I will not say too much here because it may come off as trying to put someone down and also because Maduemezia, Iyahen, and Ekhaguere (among other people) all worked together at the exact same time to found Nigeria's mathematical physics society and are obviously colleagues, but I would put Ekhaguere's actual research work ahead of Maduemezia's although Maduemezia certainly has seniority.

"The lack of a seperate spot for Africans prevents us from displaying our academic achievements in the same way Asians are able to giving the impression that black people preform poorly in academics across the board. The average act score for blacks, Africans and A.A's combined is 17. I bet the average score for Africans is somewhere around 27. Which would be the highest of any group of Americans. (Asians have 23, north Asians 25 if I'm not mistaken)

it would be a deathblow to racism if Africans (pure black people) were shown to be the smartest racial group in America. And it would prove that low academic performance in some a.a groups is because of circumstances not inherabt inferiority."

^^^^

If it turned out that the average ACT score for Africans was as high as you guessed, then yes, it might be a valid concern, but I doubt that it would be a "deathblow" to "scientific" racism. It would probably just be dismissed as a minor discrepancy in a naturally bleak overall picture.

But since few people are even aware that Africans in the West score high on these tests to begin with, it isn't an issue that could really come to people's attention to the point where they'll change how they take census data or data about race and educational attainment.

Showing that children of Ghanaians and Nigerians score high on these tests isn't really a priority for the few who know about it, anyways.

11)If you claim that Prof Emovon is the first Phd holder in Physical Chemistry that is your own problem. Because I have seen where it has been claimed rightly or wrongly like the case with Prof Ndili. On the list of Edo achievers I saw a long one you posted in one of this discussions/debates on Nairaland and I dont think the list you can manufacture would be longer than the one you had paraded as Edo "notables" and guess wht I saw the name of Prof Ekhaguere as expected.But I can tell you he ranks less in achievements to Prof Maduemezia (of Anioma) who incidentally was specialized in the same Mathematical Physics like Prof Ekhaguere but have had a more glorious career as an academician.He was at one time VC of the Bendel State University and was nominated at a time for the Nobel Prize for Physics so dont give that crap.

1. I have not seen where Binis or anyone else claimed decisively that Dr. Emovon had the first Ph.D in physical chemistry or first Ph.D in chemistry in Africa. Maybe they did, or maybe you're trying to mislead people. Either way, it's not really relevant. All I was pointing out is that modesty and cautiousness in these kind of claims is better. I could make all sorts of claims - Emovon was the first physical chemist, Iyahen was the first topologist in Africa etc. but I won't. My point is that Binis could equally parade all sorts of claims that can't really be checked without checking out all of black Africa thoroughly.

2. The only list I have ever posted on nairaland was of people from Edo state, not Binis. I deliberately tried to "spread around" the number of people from each linguistic group in Edo state, rather than focusing on Binis because I don't know enough northern Edo names, so I left out some Bini names in order to even it out. If I was going to list people from the state, I didn't want it to seem like a mostly Bini affair.

For northern Edo I listed Dokpesi, Igietseme, Momoh, Udochi, Oshiomhole, Franca Afegbua, and one or two others and I had a comparable amount listed (though slightly more) for Edo south and Edo central. If I had loaded the list with almost all academics (which I didn't do intentionally) like some other people did for their own state's lists, then it would have had too many Bini and Esan in comparison just because I don't know many northern Edo names.

ezeagu:

Why aren't they part of Edo State? Anyway this issue is about Edo migrants that have been absorbed in other communities with some of their names and government left behind.

I do not think that when Bendel state was split, an actual vote was taken on where every single community should belong. Hence you have the Oza nogogo who would prefer to be with the other Oza communities in Edo state being stuck in Delta state. This is only because of a certain river. Otherwise, despite their historical ties to Agbor, they would prefer to be with the other Oza groups.

And then you have the Igbanke. Ogbuefi has stated this elsewhere (and I can produce his specific quote), but the Igbanke were originally in Agbor district council of Asaba division in colonial times, but the obnoxiousness of the Agbor kingdom, which claimed to be their overlords, drove them away and they (the Igbanke) requested to be merged with the Benin division. They got their request granted. If not for this misbehavior on the part of Agbor, they would probably already be in Delta state today.

Also, I am extremely skeptical of claims that the Omo N'Oba arbitrarily decided one day, apropos of nothing, that the six communities of Igbanke should get six enogies and positions in the Benin Traditional Council, and I think the whole story is not actually being told there because we are hearing it from someone who is not actually from Igbanke. The move to integrate the Igbanke into Edo south as far as the Benin Traditional Council, probably has more to do with actual initiatives from people in Igbanke than it has to do with anybody in Benin. Just as Binis in Benin or the Benin palace did not make any request for the Igbanke to be in Benin division in colonial times, I doubt that this is all due to the handiwork of the Benin palace.