₦airaland Forum

LordReed:
Man's decision to kill someone who already knew before hand that they want to kill him and played into their hand is what if not manipulation. Someone wants to do something harmful to you but instead of stopping it you allow it happen so that you can sue them is manipulation.

You are still mixing this up.

First
You cant claim to have given freewill when you can stop a will. To stop man's decision in its self is selfishness and not freewill, In that decision of freewill is God's love shown. manipulating your will simply means, do my own will: this is the root of all selfishness and evil.

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Second
You need to check what i wrote earlier, that prophecies arent finality. The doctrine of finality wasnt taught in the scripture, including predestination as finality. For all man's decision, God always provide a way out for him to do rightly, same for the Jews who killed him. This is the reason you had some Jews believed, some didnt and killed him. The same message was given to them all. They made a choice to reject it, not God.

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Lastly
God isnt sueing or punishing anyone. It is in that act of man killing Christ that he brought salvation to the very man.

I am sure you know about Joseph story. It simple exemplified the suffering of Christ in man's hand yet saved man.

God still worked through the choices of Joseph's brothers, who decided to suffer him, even to kill him, yet God still work through their evil to bring salvation to his Brother in Egypt. It was Joseph who suffered that end up becoming their salvation from famine. I really hope you get this.


Read Joseph final verdict below.

Gen 50
KJV 20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

NIV 20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.

That is what you saw in Abel/Cain, in Joseph/His brothers, in David/Saul, in Jesus/Jews. It is the same story. That is, man's opposition will always stand in the way of God's will, yet same God will still make salvation available for the evil man.

hupernikao:
I aint surprised you didnt read. It is a culture you have developed. So bad an habit.

But, like i told you, dont go around saying things you cant defend, it present you in a bad light and can be taken for dishonesty.
Read well, its not hard, you can overcome the laziness and gain proper strength in criticizing the bible since its seems to be your abode.

Else, you will only be exposing that ignorance here and most likely around you in the physical word.

Long story.
Go and do the little assignment I gave to you and come back to me with feedback. I'm not reading all these your rants.

hupernikao:
You are still mixing this up.

First
You cant claim to have given freewill when you can stop a will. To stop man's decision in its self is selfishness and not freewill, In that decision of freewill is God's love shown. manipulating your will simply means, do my own will: this is the root of all selfishness and evil.

---

Second
You need to check what i wrote earlier, that prophecies arent finality. The doctrine of finality wasnt taught in the scripture, including predestination as finality. For all man's decision, God always provide a way out for him to do rightly, same for the Jews who killed him. This is the reason you had some Jews believed, some didnt and killed him. The same message was given to them all. They made a choice to reject it, not God.

---

Lastly
God isnt sueing or punishing anyone. It is in that act of man killing Christ that he brought salvation to the very man.

I am sure you know about Joseph story. It simple exemplified the suffering of Christ in man's hand yet saved man.

God still worked through the choices of Joseph's brothers, who decided to suffer him, even to kill him, yet God still work through their evil to bring salvation to his Brother in Egypt. It was Joseph who suffered that end up becoming their salvation from famine. I really hope you get this.


Read Joseph final verdict below.

Gen 50
KJV 20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

NIV 20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.

That is what you saw in Abel/Cain, in Joseph/His brothers, in David/Saul, in Jesus/Jews. It is the same story. That is, man's opposition will always stand in the way of God's will, yet same God will still make salvation available for the evil man.

If the men had not killed him would his plan have been fulfilled? Why didn't he save himself when he had the chance to?

Look you can dress it up anyway you like but the story is just what it is. A story of a god who manipulates people for his own ends.

LordReed:
If the men had not killed him would his plan have been fulfilled? Why didn't he save himself when he had the chance to?

Look you can dress it up anyway you like but the story is just what it is. A story of a god who manipulates people for his own ends.

- You are still mentioning manipulation but disagree with non free will. Manipulation is same as taking away free will. A will manipulated is no more free. Such freedom is in perception.

- Well, there is no dressing here, i only give you the Bible story. Joseph story is enough to clear this issue here, but i know you have your own hold and reasons but the scripture is clear.

God didnt manipulate Joseph brothers, even Jacob, even Pharaoh, even Potiphar and his wife etc. They are man's circumstances. Even Joseph was never manipulated yet God's will was fulfilled.

He doesnt need to manipulate to achieve is will, that is why he is God. That is what a god should be able to do. A God that needs manipulation to achieve things is no more a God but an impostor.

You know you arent considering the whole story of the bible, the reason you are coming to this conclusion. But i am pointing you to the fact that the death of Jesus was seen in the whole story of the Bible. In Abel, Joseph, Israelite, David.. You have to read and understand the whole message to get to an arrival point.


- Please do this.
Can you explain briefly what you think he could do to save himself within the situation?

hupernikao:
- You are still mentioning manipulation but disagree with non free will. Manipulation is same as taking away free will. A will manipulated is no more free. Such freedom is in perception.

- Well, there is no dressing here, i only give you the Bible story. Joseph story is enough to clear this issue here, but i know you have your own hold and reasons but the scripture is clear.

God didnt manipulate Joseph brothers, even Jacob, even Pharaoh, even Potiphar and his wife etc. They are man's circumstances. Even Joseph was never manipulated yet God's will was fulfilled.

He doesnt need to manipulate to achieve is will, that is why he is God. That is what a god should be able to do. A God that needs manipulation to achieve things is no more a God but an impostor.

You know you arent considering the whole story of the bible, the reason you are coming to this conclusion. But i am pointing you to the fact that the death of Jesus was seen in the whole story of the Bible. In Abel, Joseph, Israelite, David.. You have to read and understand the whole message to get to an arrival point.


- Please do this.
Can you explain briefly what you think he could do to save himself within the situation?

People manipulate other people all the time, would you say they have lost their free will?

I am considering the whole bible that is why I am coming to that conclusion. Every bit of the bible stories indicate that your god supposedly orchestrates everything for his own ends. Typical example is the place you quote about Joseph. He says god made a bad situation to turn out for good, that is manipulation. Pharaoh was manipulated into hardening his heart. Job story is a story of manipulation. David was manipulated into numbering Israel. Ahab's death is a tale of manipulation. Israel's enemies were manipulated into attacking Israel as punishment from god for their sins. Almost every part of the bible attests to your god's penchant for manipulation. It even says god will cause people to be deluded so that they can be destroyed in the last days in the NT.

LordReed:
People manipulate other people all the time, would you say they have lost their free will?

I am considering the whole bible that is why I am coming to that conclusion. Every bit of the bible stories indicate that your god supposedly orchestrates everything for his own ends. Typical example is the place you quote about Joseph. He says god made a bad situation to turn out for good, that is manipulation. Pharaoh was manipulated into hardening his heart. Job story is a story of manipulation. David was manipulated into numbering Israel. Ahab's death is a tale of manipulation. Israel's enemies were manipulated into attacking Israel as punishment from god for their sins. Almost every part of the bible attests to your god's penchant for manipulation. It even says god will cause people to be deluded so that they can be destroyed in the last days in the NT.

I trust you will get to a point of scriptures intent. I am sure.

Just a little thing is still causing the issue. That is, the issue of what God's action is and his sovereignty.

You need to get the Bible explanation of God and not what you have been told. There is no where you read that God manipulate. These are your words. And like I told you, free will and manipulation can't be in same context, same as love and mind control. You need to have a different view of what Bible explained about all these virtue above.

You can't love and manipulate, even if you do it for the person's gain, it's an act of selfishness. Your will is what was carried out not the persons will. This is not how God was explained in the Bible.

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God, allows man's decision all through the scriptures. And I have pointed it out to you.

You saw it in Eden, in Cain, all through the scriptures. Where God surpasses man is his ability to work, persevere, wait, long suffer all through man's decision and still end up saving man. That is the singular story of the Bible. Any other is false.

Whose decision is it when Joseph was boosting to his brother, God or Joseph?

Whose decision was it, when the brother sold him to Egypt? God or his brother?

Whose decision was it when Jacob sent the brothers to Egypt? God or Jacob.

All these above were not God's decision but theirs. This is what happens to us daily. We make decisions, we go daily about just like them and make decisions. Blaming our decision on God will be a lie.

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For example, today most crime in Nigeria is blamed on the devil. That's a convenient excuse and you know it. It is man that engage his mind to do evil and give room for the devil to act. Man's will is what shapes our world.
Science, philosophy, farming, music are all man's invention. The same as weapons, bombs.

God works through it all to make his will known without having to manipulate te man but allow man's free will. This is why he is supreme. An ability to work through all man's dispositions without enforcing his will on man yet working it out for man is God supreme.

hupernikao:
I trust you will get to a point of scriptures intent. I am sure.

Just a little thing is still causing the issue. That is, the issue of what God's action is and his sovereignty.

You need to get the Bible explanation of God and not what you have been told. There is no where you read that God manipulate. These are your words. And like I told you, free will and manipulation can't be in same context, same as love and mind control. You need to have a different view of what Bible explained about all these virtue above.

You can't love and manipulate, even if you do it for the person's gain, it's an act of selfishness. Your will is what was carried out not the persons will. This is not how God was explained in the Bible.

---

God, allows man's decision all through the scriptures. And I have pointed it out to you.

You saw it in Eden, in Cain, all through the scriptures. Where God surpasses man is his ability to work, persevere, wait, long suffer all through man's decision and still end up saving man. That is the singular story of the Bible. Any other is false.

Whose decision is it when Joseph was boosting to his brother, God or Joseph?

Whose decision was it, when the brother sold him to Egypt? God or his brother?

Whose decision was it when Jacob sent the brothers to Egypt? God or Jacob.

All these above were not God's decision but theirs. This is what happens to us daily. We make decisions, we go daily about just like them and make decisions. Blaming our decision on God will be a lie.

---

For example, today most crime in Nigeria is blamed on the devil. That's a convenient excuse and you know it. It is man that engage his mind to do evil and give room for the devil to act. Man's will is what shapes our world.
Science, philosophy, farming, music are all man's invention. The same as weapons, bombs.

God works through it all to make his will known without having to manipulate te man but allow man's free will. This is why he is supreme. An ability to work through all man's dispositions without enforcing his will on man yet working it out for man is God supreme.

Except the Bible specifically says your god influenced people in certain ways. Pharaoh is a prime example, your god said he hardened his heart. Ahab was deceived into going out to war so he could be killed. These are actions of your god not merely a passive waiting for the stars to align.

LordReed:
Except the Bible specifically says your god influenced people in certain ways. Pharaoh is a prime example, your god said he hardened his heart. Ahab was deceived into going out to war so he could be killed. These are actions of your god not merely a passive waiting for the stars to align.

You didn't read those text well Bro. Those are text that we already have our mind manipulated by drama, story books and pictures before we even come in contact to read then. This is what is influencing your claim about God controlling Pharoah. Like I said, you have to read the full story to conclude. If you read all text about Pharoah you will understand. Hardening of heart wasn't mentioned on Pharoah alone,

Hebrew writer, Psalms all explained how hardening of heart comes. That is what should guide your interpretation.



Lastly, don't interpret Bible like a 2021 scholar. You must draw your interpretation from the writers time, language, culture of their time and events.

You are using 2021 mind to explain a text written over 2000 years ago. You won't be correct. It will just be like reading about Joshua stopping the Sun and you are using the knowledge of 2021 science to interpret it. You will err. You will say the Sun was never in motion which is true. But that doesn't make Joshua wrong. You are the one who should travel back to their time and borrow the knowledge of science of their days. Then you will understand why he wrote such. All knowledge of their days point to Sun as one revolving even the science of their days and that is what they will use in their language and events.


So, try to sit at their state then look at the scriptures and re read again to understand their language, and usage of words and use it to interpret events of their days.

This is how you can understand the intent of the author and get him right.

hupernikao:
You didn't read those text well Bro. Those are text that we already have our mind manipulated by drama, story books and pictures before we even come in contact to read then. This is what is influencing your claim about God controlling Pharoah. Like I said, you have to read the full story to conclude. If you read all text about Pharoah you will understand. Hardening of heart wasn't mentioned on Pharoah alone,

Hebrew writer, Psalms all explained how hardening of heart comes. That is what should guide your interpretation.



Lastly, don't interpret Bible like a 2021 scholar. You must draw your interpretation from the writers time, language, culture of their time and events. You are using 2021 mind to explain a text written over 2000 years ago. You won't be correct. It will just be like reading about Joshua stopping the Sun and you are using the knowledge of 2021 science to interpret it. You will err. You will say the Sun was never in motion which is true. But that doesn't make Joshua wrong. You are the one who should travel back to their time and borrow the knowledge of science of their days. Then you will understand why he wrote such. All knowledge of their days point to Sun as one revolving even the science of their days and that is what they will use in their language and events.


So, try to sit at their state then look at the scriptures and re read again to understand their language, and usage of words and use it to interpret events of their days.

This is how you can understand the intent of the author and get him right.

Dude don't even start with that. It is clearly written there that god hardened Pharaoh's heart. It is clearly written that god sent a spirit to go deceive Ahab to his death. You clearly want it to mean something other than what is clearly stated, your god is manipulative.

LordReed:
Dude don't even start with that. It is clearly written there that god hardened Pharaoh's heart. It is clearly written that god sent a spirit to go deceive Ahab to his death. You clearly want it to mean something other than what is clearly stated, your god is manipulative.

I will give you two simple texts to joggle your conclusion. There won't be much explanation from me for some reasons but read the below.

Exo 8
15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he (Pharaoh) hardened his heart and would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.

Pharaoh here did it by himself.

32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go
Here also.


Exo 7
13 And he (God) hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.

God was referred here.

Exo 9
12 But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the Lord had spoken to Moses.

Here also.


Then we ask, who truly is responsible for pharaohs heart. What exactly was Moses writing. What does this mean in their days.


So, you see, it calls for a thorough study and investigation. Bible study is a tedious word to arrive a conclusion. Reason Paul told Timothy to study hard, like someone who want to get A1 in school.

So, the hardness of heart must be thoroughly studied all through the scriptures before conclusion.

hupernikao:
I will give you two simple texts to joggle your conclusion. There won't be much explanation from me for some reasons but read the below.

Exo 8
15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he (Pharaoh) hardened his heart and would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.

Pharaoh here did it by himself.

32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go
Here also.


Exo 7
13 And he (God) hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.

God was referred here.

Exo 9
12 But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the Lord had spoken to Moses.

Here also.


Then we ask, who truly is responsible for pharaohs heart. What exactly was Moses writing. What does this mean in their days.


So, you see, it calls for a thorough study and investigation. Bible study is a tedious word to arrive a conclusion. Reason Paul told Timothy to study hard, like someone who want to get A1 in school.

So, the hardness of heart must be thoroughly studied all through the scriptures before conclusion.

Either your god is a liar or he says things he doesn't mean. He declares way before Pharaoh even has a chance to make a decision that he god will harden Pharaoh's heart.
Exodus 4:21
And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
Exodus 7:3
And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
Exodus 9:12
But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses.
Exodus 10:1
Now the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before him,
Exodus 10:20
But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go.
Exodus 14:8
And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued the children of Israel; and the children of Israel went out with boldness.
Exodus 14:4
Then I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, so that he will pursue them; and I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord.” And they did so.

Turns out Pharaoh is not the only one to suffer such a fate:

Deuteronomy 2:30
“But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass through, for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into your hand, as it is this day.

So which is it, is your god lying?

What of Ahab? Deceived into battle that will end his life.

2 Chronicles 18:21
So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.’
2 Chronicles 18:22
Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”

The evidence is staring you in the face.

LordReed:
Either your god is a liar or he says things he doesn't mean. He declares way before Pharaoh even has a chance to make a decision that he god will harden Pharaoh's heart.
Exodus 4:21
And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
Exodus 7:3
And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
Exodus 9:12
But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses.
Exodus 10:1
Now the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before him,
Exodus 10:20
But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go.
Exodus 14:8
And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued the children of Israel; and the children of Israel went out with boldness.
Exodus 14:4
Then I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, so that he will pursue them; and I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord.” And they did so.

Turns out Pharaoh is not the only one to suffer such a fate:

Deuteronomy 2:30
“But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass through, for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into your hand, as it is this day.

So which is it, is your god lying?

What of Ahab? Deceived into battle that will end his life.

2 Chronicles 18:21
So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.’
2 Chronicles 18:22
Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”

The evidence is staring you in the face.

You are giving text but neglecting the ones I gave you. We can't be honest with Bible study if we don't consider all texts. The texts I gave you are there. I only gave you two each. They are more.

So, like I said.

Are there texts that stated God hardened Pharaoh heart? Yes

Are there texts that stated Pharaoh hardened his own heart? Yes.

So to be fair with the scriptures, you have to look at both and fully understand what is being discussed. You are already concluding that it's God thereby neglecting the other statement, that is not adequate as Bible defence.

I am sure you hold science in high esteem. In human research and study, you don't take a statement out of a research and explain it while neglecting the other part of the write up that counter it. Yih will end up getting wrong result or conclusion. Then why doing it to the Bible.

So, you need to bring all texts to your explanation to arrive at your conclusion.

hupernikao:
You are giving text but neglecting the ones I gave you. We can't be honest with Bible study if we don't consider all texts. The texts I gave you are there. I only gave you two each. They are more.

So, like I said.

Are there texts that stated God hardened Pharaoh heart? Yes

Are there texts that stated Pharaoh hardened his own heart? Yes.

So to be fair with the scriptures, you have to look at both and fully understand what is being discussed. You are already concluding that it's God thereby neglecting the other statement, that is not adequate as Bible defence.

I am sure you hold science in high esteem. In human research and study, you don't take a statement out of a research and explain it while neglecting the other part of the write up that counter it. Yih will end up getting wrong result or conclusion. Then why doing it to the Bible.

So, you need to bring all texts to your explanation to arrive at your conclusion.

So your god lied then. He did not really harden those people's hearts he is just claiming credit for doing it.

What about Ahab? Let's hear your explanation of why your god sending a lying spirit is not manipulation.

LordReed:
So your god lied then. He did not really harden those people's hearts he is just claiming crdit for doing it.

What about Ahab? Let's hear your explanation of why your god sending a lying spirit is not manipulation.

Lol, that guy is confused on his own.

kingxsamz:
Lol, that guy is confused on his own.

E tire person o! LoL

Ola17:
Iramure

That question earned me a heavy knock from my Sunday school teacher when I was a kid. It just doesn’t make any sense! God as an omniscient being should’ve known that Lucifer will cause troubles for it later on. God should've forewent creating Lucifer.

Let’s assume God was too busy to look into the future and discover Lucifer’s antecedents; when Lucifer turned to satan, of all the planets in existence, why choose earth where God’s supposedly beloved Adam and Eve were lounging

As for those saying that God was trying to test us by leaving the tree of knowledge of good and bad in the garden of eden, I will only say that that kind of thinking is twisted. No offense. Will you keep a harmful stuff in the reach of your beloved when you as an omniscient person that sees tomorrow knows that the satan you created and placed in the same place as your beloved will trick them into ingesting same?

Na wah.

I see the story as tale of the moonlight.
I expect an omniscient person to be more serious

LordReed:
So your god lied then. He did not really harden those people's hearts he is just claiming credit for doing it.

What about Ahab? Let's hear your explanation of why your god sending a lying spirit is not manipulation.

Apologies for the delays. Weekends are usually busier.

I mentioned to you that you cant interpret scriptures in pockets, this is same for any literatures. You have to read all events, instructions, words, actions to be able to conclude on the attribute of a character. You are still interpreting God's actions in pockets.

Recall, i also mentioned to you that culture, history and language are very key to interpretation of literatures. The Bible is a literature book, It has its own history, culture and languages used across the history.

This will call that you must interpret within the scope of its language, culture, history, knowledge available to people then and their way of life.

So, for proper bible interpretation we must pay attention to

1. The language of the audience and writer/speaker
2. The prevalent culture of their time
3. The history and development of the culture and language overtime till our own time
4. The available secular knowledge of their time

You cannot use the knowledge and language or 2021 to interpret a book written over 2000 years ago. That alone is a platform for error.

All the above will limit the ability of the speaker or writer just as it is today for us.

---

I will give you an instance.

USAGE OF CHARIOTS OF FIRE FOR ANGELS IN THE BIBLE
In describing the operations and appearance of angels, Bible writers used fire and chariots. What we call chariots of fire[b] (2 Kings 2:11, Isa 66:15)[/b]. These are languages, man's language not God language.

Observe the elements used (Chariots, Fire). Remember that in their time war was prevalent and the strongest element in war in their time was a Chariot. Infact only the general rides the chariot. It is a sign of strength or valor.


Observe also, that fire typified speed, Bible used flame of fire (Hebrews 1:7). This shows speed, something sporadic. Hence the reason they used it for angel.

Why? Because angels are known for strength (Ps 103:20), massiveness and speed. The only way the writer could explain is to use the elements available in their time. Chariot is description of Strength, Fire is description of Speed. A writer in our own time will use Speed of Light and Rockets. Like Rockets of Light. That will be the language of our days,


Why all these

This is to show you that literatures are confined within the limit of the knowledge and culture of the writer.

---

Now to answer your question, i will tell you to do a research on contemporary and secular writing that falls within the same chronology of the time of the OT writings and then lets discuss this again.

The contemporary and secular writings will show you the prevalent language and knowledge of God and culture around that time. Hence that will guide how you read and interpret the Bible writers within the same period.

One basic thing you will find out is this.

They all ascribe to God or their gods, everything that ever happens to man in their time. Either good or evil, killing or making alive. They believe no other being exist to be able to do such act. Hence the reasons you see them worship their gods so that he will not do evil to them or kill them. You wont see any mention or description of a Satan or Devil acting separately from the gods.

This is also well documented about African culture.

Hence, why did the writer of the event you wrote did so. Prevalent culture and knowledge is what guided him.

Dont forget i have emphasized this all through our discussion, that God will not manipulate but[b] use man's language, culture, history, disposition, opposition, faith, unbelief, actions and inactions, he will work through it to still achieve his purpose.[/b] He needs not change man's language or force man to do things for him to achieve his will, This is why He is God.

hupernikao:


Apologies for the delays. Weekends are usually busier.

I mentioned to you that you cant interpret scriptures in pockets, this is same for any literatures. You have to read all events, instructions, words, actions to be able to conclude on the attribute of a character. You are still interpreting God's actions in pockets.

Recall, i also mentioned to you that culture, history and language are very key to interpretation of literatures. The Bible is a literature book, It has its own history, culture and languages used across the history.

This will call that you must interpret within the scope of its language, culture, history, knowledge available to people then and their way of life.

So, for proper bible interpretation we must pay attention to

1. The language of the audience and writer/speaker
2. The prevalent culture of their time
3. The history and development of the culture and language overtime till our own time
4. The available secular knowledge of their time

You cannot use the knowledge and language or 2021 to interpret a book written over 2000 years ago. That alone is a platform for error.

All the above will limit the ability of the speaker or writer just as it is today for us.

---

I will give you an instance.

USAGE OF CHARIOTS OF FIRE FOR ANGELS IN THE BIBLE
In describing the operations and appearance of angels, Bible writers used fire and chariots. What we call chariots of fire[b] (2 Kings 2:11, Isa 66:15)[/b]. These are languages, man's language not God language.

Observe the elements used (Chariots, Fire). Remember that in their time war was prevalent and the strongest element in war in their time was a Chariot. Infact only the general rides the chariot. It is a sign of strength or valor.


Observe also, that fire typified speed, Bible used flame of fire (Hebrews 1:7). This shows speed, something sporadic. Hence the reason they used it for angel.

Why? Because angels are known for strength (Ps 103:20), massiveness and speed. The only way the writer could explain is to use the elements available in their time. Chariot is description of Strength, Fire is description of Speed. A writer in our own time will use Speed of Light and Rockets. Like Rockets of Light. That will be the language of our days,


Why all these

This is to show you that literatures are confined within the limit of the knowledge and culture of the writer.

---

Now to answer your question, i will tell you to do a research on contemporary and secular writing that falls within the same chronology of the time of the OT writings and then lets discuss this again.

The contemporary and secular writings will show you the prevalent language and knowledge of God and culture around that time. Hence that will guide how you read and interpret the Bible writers within the same period.

One basic thing you will find out is this.

They all ascribe to God or their gods, everything that ever happens to man in their time. Either good or evil, killing or making alive. They believe no other being exist to be able to do such act. Hence the reasons you see them worship their gods so that he will not do evil to them or kill them. You wont see any mention or description of a Satan or Devil acting separately from the gods.

This is also well documented about African culture.

Hence, why did the writer of the event you wrote did so. Prevalent culture and knowledge is what guided him.

Dont forget i have emphasized this all through our discussion, that God will not manipulate but[b] use man's language, culture, history, disposition, opposition, faith, unbelief, actions and inactions, he will work through it to still achieve his purpose.[/b] He needs not change man's language or force man to do things for him to achieve his will, This is why He is God.

Do you understand that you just made the Bible out to be nothing but a work of human imagination? If they are merely ascribing to god all these things then we can be certain your god doesn't exist.

hupernikao:
This is to show you that literatures are confined within the limit of the knowledge and culture of the writer.

[/i]

Furthermore, this is to show that god is dependent and limited to the imagination and vocabulary of the person claiming its existence.

LordReed:
Do you understand that you just made the Bible out to be nothing but a work of human imagination? If they are merely ascribing to god all these things then we can be certain your god doesn't exist.

The bible is different because it's about God. If it were about god it would be the fictional work of human imagination but it's about God so it is true.

hupernikao:
This is to show you that literatures are confined within the limit of the knowledge and culture of the writer.

[/i]

Furthermore, this is to show that a god is dependent and limited to the imagination and vocabulary of the person claiming its existence.

e.g. Sonmvayina's god is the totality of consciousness.

KnownUnknown:
Furthermore, this is to show that a god is dependent and limited to the imagination and vocabulary of the person claiming its existence.

e.g. Sonmvayina's god is the totality of consciousness.

Firstly
If what you called limitation is about using the language and vocabulary of your audience to speak to your audience then you likely need to do a little study on what communication is about.

Likely you were taught that God would have created a special language and teach every man so that he can communicate to them. Seems that is goddish, right?

Sadly, God doesn't work in such way. He need not go outside man's disposition to speak to man. His first step of love towards you is that he even came to you in your own language and vocabulary to walk with you and be with you.

I guess you are used to a god that needs to show off to prove a point. The God shown in the Bible has nothing to prove to man. He's not puffed up to showcase anything. He is ready to stay with you in that lowliness and dwell in that mud and rag with you to be available to help you always. He isn't a show master. Hence he isn't bothered to use your own very invention and disposition to reach out to you. God is not man.

You may likely have been told of a different god from the one the Bible teaches.


Secondly,
You must uphold your learnings on literature when reading the Bible. This is the most basic problem of those who make expressions as you just did. Your learnings of literature must be retained to understand the scriptures because the text are not literature. Hence usage of words and languages. Bible wasn't written in 'God's' language, it's written in man's language, using the ink invented by men, and yet inspired by God and the inspiration kept eternally. Looking for a god who will not use man's disposition to operate, will be a god not working among men.


Lastly.
To help you better, you need to fight and erase that mindset or imagination of movies or cultural gods you have seen or known. They are likely influencing how you read and conclude about the God I am speaking of.

LordReed:
Do you understand that you just made the Bible out to be nothing but a work of human imagination? If they are merely ascribing to god all these things then we can be certain your god doesn't exist.

Bro. Man's disposition to knowledge has been proven to always be in direct proportion to the chronology of the earth.

You can't feign ignorant of that.

There was a time the world believes...

... That the earth is flat.
... That the sun revolves
... That man can at the edge of the earth to bottomless pit.

... That slavery is good
... That twins are evil...
And so on.

These are based on man's exposure to knowledge.


So to claim that man's limitation of how evil comes implies there is no God is close to saying, because a baby who never had knowledge of what evil is, and and continually smile at a thief that comes around to steal at home will implies that there is nothing called thief or evil but only good men.

---

Man increases in knowledge to understand his environment better. Same with the knowledge of who God is and God's word. Man is limited in knowledge, hence will have to know things over a period of time. This exactly is also the limitation of science. That isn't God's limitation but man's.


The Bible clearly presented to you that even though man knew God as early as his creation, he still had to learn who God is and what God can do and not do.

So, man's limitation is the key indices here not God. A god who wants to show himself and wants man to know him in a single swoop has left the domain of love to selfishness and self interest. It's like a lecturer who wants a year 1 student to become a professor of law in 5days mind blowing teaching.

You must not loose focus of the fact that all God's action that seems to present him to you as weak are the expressions of his love to man, and to you. His lowliness is because of you and for you. Imagine, he came and wore the same tabernacle of sin, the sinful flesh, yet remain God.

He is not in haste to wait for man until he can comprehend him, this is what the Bible called God's longsuffering.

You must see this attribute of God always and hold it central to your knowledge of God and Bible theology. His love for you will make him give and do all for you. This is the God of the Christian Bible

hupernikao:


Bro. Man's disposition to knowledge has been proven to always be in direct proportion to the chronology of the earth.

You can't feign ignorant of that.

There was a time the world believes...

... That the earth is flat.
... That the sun revolves
... That man can at the edge of the earth to bottomless pit.

... That slavery is good
... That twins are evil...
And so on.

These are based on man's exposure to knowledge.


So to claim that man's limitation of how evil comes implies there is no God is close to saying, because a baby who never had knowledge of what evil is, and and continually smile at a thief that comes around to steal at home will implies that there is nothing called thief or evil but only good men.

---

Man increases in knowledge to understand his environment better. Same with the knowledge of who God is and God's word. Man is limited in knowledge, hence will have to know things over a period of time. This exactly is also the limitation of science. That isn't God's limitation but man's.


The Bible clearly presented to you that even though man knew God as early as his creation, he still had to learn who God is and what God can do and not do.

So, man's limitation is the key indices here not God. A god who wants to show himself and wants man to know him in a single swoop has left the domain of love to selfishness and self interest. It's like a lecturer who wants a year 1 student to become a professor of law in 5days mind blowing teaching.

You must not loose focus of the fact that all God's action that seems to present him to you as weak are the expressions of his love to man, and to you. His lowliness is because of you and for you. Imagine, he came and wore the same tabernacle of sin, the sinful flesh, yet remain God.

He is not in haste to wait for man until he can comprehend him, this is what the Bible called God's longsuffering.

You must see this attribute of God always and hold it central to your knowledge of God and Bible theology. His love for you will make him give and do all for you. This is the God of the Christian Bible

SMH.
[img]https://media1./images/81fa692be6af161cfc9ef9ebeb9af0ad/tenor.gif?itemid=4246025[/img]

LordReed:
SMH.
[img]https://media1./images/81fa692be6af161cfc9ef9ebeb9af0ad/tenor.gif?itemid=4246025[/img]

Why the movie clip gif. Lol

On a serious note,
I will truly want you to actually try read the Bible with the mind I explained above. I know you do read the Bible, likely for criticism but that's not actually an issue. All scholarly document must be subjected to intelligent scrutiny. But I only desire you read and treat it with same open mindedness you use to read other literatures. You don't have to be a Christian to see what God did through the scriptures. You only need an open mind in your research and findings.

Don't forget, God's love is still the same even today, that is, his ability to suffer long and wait for you even if you draw him to the lowest point of your desire and make him useless in your thought.

He waits patiently not in anger but in open embrace and love you the more as his grace continues in search of you. And I am persuaded, he will find you.

Remember, God's grace is more available and abundant anywhere He is much rejected or opposed. Romans 5:20

hupernikao:
Why the movie clip gif. Lol

On a serious note,
I will truly want you to actually try read the Bible with the mind I explained above. I know you do read the Bible, likely for criticism but that's not actually an issue. All scholarly document must be subjected to intelligent scrutiny. But I only desire you read and treat it with same open mindedness you use to read other literatures. You don't have to be a Christian to see what God did through the scriptures. You only need an open mind in your research and findings.

Don't forget, God's love is still the same even today, that is, his ability to suffer long and wait for you even if you draw him to the lowest point of your desire and make him useless in your thought.

He waits patiently not in anger but in open embrace and love you the more as his grace continues in search of you. And I am persuaded, he will find you.

Remember, God's grace is more available and abundant anywhere He is much rejected or opposed. Romans 5:20

The reason for the gif is cause you are doing yourself "jedi mind trick". You are believing that something someone wrote out of the abundance of his imagination contains a message for you even though it is just a figment of that person's imagination.

LordReed:
The reason for the gif is cause you are doing yourself "jedi mind trick". You are believing that something someone wrote out of the abundance of his imagination contains a message for you even though it is just a figment of that person's imagination.

You call it imagination, Bible called it inspiration.

We know when man writes, we know when man is inspired to write, and we know when God inspires man to write.

When you see the systematic presentation, intelligence and theological wisdom delivered in the scriptures spanning over 44 writers, 4000 years timeline. Who mostly never saw each other nor know one another yet saying the same thing, same message seen in all events.

Then if that is man's imagination, such men (the writers) would be the best of men that ever existed and should be listened to.

hupernikao:
You call it imagination, Bible called it inspiration.

We know when man writes, we know when man is inspired to write, and we know when God inspires man to write.

When you see the systematic presentation, intelligence and theological wisdom delivered in the scriptures spanning over 44 writers, 4000 years timeline. Who mostly never saw each other nor know one another yet saying the same thing, same message seen in all events.

Then if that is man's imagination, such men (the writers) would be the best of men that ever existed and should be listened to.

I told you to read Frank Herbert's Dune series you'll see inspiration by the bucket load. Also read JRR Tokien's Silmarilon, plenty of inspiration there to.

LordReed:
I told you to read Frank Herbert's Dune series you'll see inspiration by the bucket load. Also read JRR Tokien's Silmarilon, plenty of inspiration there to.

You didnt read my post well. I never said there is no inspiration any other place. Read this below again.

We know when man writes, we know when man is inspired to write, and we know when God inspires man to write.


Frank Herbert's Dune series, JRR Tokien's Silmarilon fall within the second category (man inspired to write)

I then wrote: We know when God inspires man to write.: This is the scriptures and that is the difference. God's inspiration.


Hence, Inspiration can come from anywhere and anything, but this word of God, is God's breath to man, the very essence of God himself communicated in man's language for man.

Frank Herbert's Dune series was never in dispute for over 2000 years. It was never opposed nor the reader oppressed and persecuted for reading it. The readers never hear nor claim to see God through it. But this word of Life, the one you hold in hands yet despised, has been in this very contention since the creation of man. That same word of God is what Cain persecuted and killed his brother. And the same spirit of Cain is seen all through the ages even unto this day.


The same spirit of persecution spoken of in the scriptures, written when there is yet to be any civilization, that same word, rejected, despised, persecuted even unto this day.

The uncivilized world persecuted it, the civilized world did and doing the same. Yet it endure all through the ages. Whether civilized, uncivilized, incivilized, oncivilized, precivilized, procivilized, the opponent actions and deeds remain the same and predicted with all accuracies by writers who existed over 3000 years ago.


Dont you think such book is different?

hupernikao:
Frank Herbert's Dune series was never in dispute for over 2000 years. It was never opposed nor the reader oppressed and persecuted for reading it.

The same spirit of persecution spoken of in the scriptures, written when there is yet to be any civilization, that same word, rejected, despised, persecuted even unto this day.

The uncivilized world persecuted it, the civilized world did and doing the same. Yet it endure all through the ages. Whether civilized, uncivilized, incivilized, oncivilized, precivilized, procivilized, the opponent actions and deeds remain the same and predicted with all accuracies by writers who existed over 3000 years ago.


Dont you think such book is different?

I loath the delusional and vicious hypocrisy of Christianity’s persecution complex in light of 2000 years of bloodletting in the name of jesus and greed. Deus Vult! Dum Diversas! The great commission!

hupernikao:
You didnt read my post well. I never said there is no inspiration any other place. Read this below again.

We know when man writes, we know when man is inspired to write, and we know when God inspires man to write.


Frank Herbert's Dune series, JRR Tokien's Silmarilon fall within the second category (man inspired to write)

I then wrote: We know when God inspires man to write.: This is the scriptures and that is the difference. God's inspiration.


Hence, Inspiration can come from anywhere and anything, but this word of God, is God's breath to man, the very essence of God himself communicated in man's language for man.

Frank Herbert's Dune series was never in dispute for over 2000 years. It was never opposed nor the reader oppressed and persecuted for reading it. The readers never hear nor claim to see God through it. But this word of Life, the one you hold in hands yet despised, has been in this very contention since the creation of man. That same word of God is what Cain persecuted and killed his brother. And the same spirit of Cain is seen all through the ages even unto this day.


The same spirit of persecution spoken of in the scriptures, written when there is yet to be any civilization, that same word, rejected, despised, persecuted even unto this day.

The uncivilized world persecuted it, the civilized world did and doing the same. Yet it endure all through the ages. Whether civilized, uncivilized, incivilized, oncivilized, precivilized, procivilized, the opponent actions and deeds remain the same and predicted with all accuracies by writers who existed over 3000 years ago.


Dont you think such book is different?

No, such a book is not different because there are books that precede the bible and are much older which have endured such treatment.

LordReed:
No, such a book is not different because there are books that precede the bible and are much older which have endured such treatment.

But you know you are only picking what you want to respond to, you aren't sincerely discussing what I posed.

Why has the Bible and its character been under persecution all through its ages.

Why was the over 40 stories of the Bible recorded over 3000 years span saying the same thing. From Abel to Jesus, same story, actions, same opposition, same purpose.


Bible is a collection of books and most of the author never met each other. Yet the story of each, aligned to the same story of the messiah. His suffering, his glory seen in man's events from Abel to all the prophets. How is such intelligence position. Not even a trained AI or neural network code can deliver such accuracy of repetition of same facts in over 400 events.