@samuk
[s]What you just wrote up there can't be verified because yoruba eyewitness historical accounts only began in 1826[/s]

First of all, what I wrote was backed up by three attached screenshots showing:

(1) The Alaafin admitting the Ọɣọni’s supremacy in a photograph, in full public glare. “A picture,” they say,“is worth a thousand words”. This is even stronger that the report of someone who observed the Alaafin do what he did. Stronger than eyewitness.

(2) A firsthand/eyewitness report testifying that the Ọɣọni is the head of all the monarchs. Same report shows other monarchs (the Alaafin included) conceded this fact enthusiastically.

(3) An old European map [created in the year 1513] with the Realm of the Ọɣọni as the only relevant “Regnum” worthy of featuring around the “Nigeria” area at the time.

You think the Europeans came to this understanding by the power of witchcraft? Nah, lol.

They actually came down here; met with natives at Eko-Aromi-re, Ijebu, Warri, Benin; inquired from them as to who the regional power is; and got replies which birthed this old map.

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And of course you’re wrong (and you obviously know it) about your comical assertion that 1826 was when first hand reports from Yorubas (and about Yorubas) were first collected. No, it began in the 1400s before your Benin’s. Sorry.

[s]You claimed that the Ooni had an empire pre 1500s and the Alaafin took over and dominated the yoruba people between 1500s to 1800.[/s]

Yes, that’s what history establishes. Why do you have a problem with reality? We've see the 1513 map establish that.

[s]If indeed the Ooni had an empire pre 1500s, it would have come into contact with Benin whose eyewitness historical accounts had already began, mind you I am applying the same standard of verifiable historical accounts to Benin history, not just limiting it to Yoruba only.[/s]

Even though it doesn’t have to have come in contact with Benin (there is no logical basis to suggest that as some default), it however did – and Benin was in fact one of its early dependencies.

[s]Benin Europeans eyewitness historical accounts

The various Europeans, Portuguese, Dutch, British etc, that had contact with Benin for almost 400 years before 1826 never recorded Benin having any relationship or traditions with Ife, Ooni, Oranmiyan or Oduduwa, in fact none of these names appeared in Benin history of over 400 years, 1400s to mid-1800s[/s]

On one hand, your assertion is a blatant falsehood.

And that’s because, in 1486, a Portuguese named João Afonso de Aveiro had reached Benin and had inquired about “the most powerful monarch of these parts” of the world.

His report among others’ were synthesized & published in 1540 by João de Barros. Barros’s synthesis shows that the kings of Benin are subordinate to a supreme powerful monarch.

The Portuguese synthesis gives the title of this monarch as “Ogane” (Portuguese transliteration)

It is not all coincidence:
(A)That this supreme monarch is noted as “Ogane”

(B)That the Bini word “Ọɣẹnẹ” roughly means “great lord”

(C)That Ife kings are known in Bini language as “Ọɣẹnẹ [n’ Uhẹ]”

(D)That the monarchs of Ife are known in Ife itself as “Ọɣọni [-Ufẹ]”

(E)That the “Ọɣọni” in Yoruba language roughly means “the exalted one”.

(F) That this identification is the consensus of historical scholarship in the world today.

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On the other hand, travelers in our region in the 1400s, 1500s,1600s, and 1700s, are largely traders, etc. (not colonialists).

As such, they did not concern themselves with inquiries into kings’ ancestries; or of their (the kings’) first parents’; their original homelands; or any such naming of names.

If they had made such inquiries, then their reports would have shown some answers. However, their reports contained no answers at all whatsoever on these specific subjects.

Their reports would have shown some name (may be Pa-Idu instead of Oduduwa, or Ogiso-Igodo instead of Oranmiyan, or Igalaland instead of Ife, or any other name for that matter) if they cared about Benin kings’ ancestors/predecessors, or their original homeland.

The fact that their report is blank (not only to the name Oduduwa, Oranmiyan, et al., but) to any name at all whatsoever -- in this context – shows that they didn’t concern themselves with such particular inquiry in the first place.

Your question about Oduduwa, Oranmiyan, et al. is therefore slow and redundant since no such inquiries was even made at all to begin with.

They didn’t even mention your kings’ names from Eweka to Osemwende – including the kings’ whom they must have met in person – let alone their first parents’ names, etc. Get a grip.

These specific inquiries began with the arrival (in the 1800s) of colonialist whose business was more than trade. They’re here to stay. They must know [the history of whom] they’re conquering.

The colonialists made these specific inquires (from your kings’ court) in the 1800s; and their reports furnished us, for the first time, with names of personages, places w.r.t. Benin history.

Since then, the names of the founding personages of Benin’s royal dynasty, as obtained from the royal court of Benin have been: Eweka, Oranmiyan, Oduduwa from Ife in Yoruba country.
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Continues from my next comment.

I want to put this here. In 13th century the greatest king in Benin history Oba Ewuare 1 changed Benin to Edo. This Edo was being corrupted as Idu by east the present day Igbos, in the west the present day yoruba it was being corrupted as Ado.

So In ancient Yoruba when you say someone is from Ado this means The person is from Edo/Benin. Why in Igbo the person is from Idu. That for that.

Your prince Eko, prince was known as prince Ado/Edo or meaning prince Edo. Which debate you still want again apart from what king of Lagos said it fact the guy was from Benin even his name defined it.

Prince Edo, prince of Edo, prince from Edo. nawa for some people here they like arguments too much

@samuk
[s]I challenged you to show the readers where Ooni, Oranmiyan and Oduduwa appeared in Benin history as late as 1888, before the reign of Oba Ovonramwen, the last independent Oba of Benin.[/s]

Well, you’re just as dumb as your cHaLLeNgE as I have just demonstrated in the preceding lines. *winks.

And as for “Ooni”, viz. “Ọɣọni”, this was reported in the 1500s Portuguese text as “Ogane” as has been demonstrated. But the inquiry leading to this report was obviously not about ancestry.

Rather, the inquiry leading to this report was about the “most powerful monarch of these part” of the world – a question which had been pondered for some time by Europeans, back in Europe, during the Middle Ages.

[s]In a situation when traditions don't agree, the best way of resolving issues is to call for eyewitnesses to the events

Both Benin and Ife traditions don't agree on the personage of Oduduwa and Oranmiyan.

All Obas of Benin after Ovonramwen who have spoken on the Origin of Oduduwa have consistently maintained that he was the banished Benin prince Ekaladerhan.[/s]

You’re such a pathetic joke. So, you’ve finally met/read from the eyewitnesses who saw your Ekaladerhan. LMAO.

Moreover, Benin and Ife traditions both agree on the personage of Oduduwa, Oranmiyan up until when your then incoming king Erediauwa announced a completely strange tale to the Binis.

For the first time ever, the Bini public was told, by this new king, that Oduduwa was no longer a foreign dynasty founder from Yorubaland, but that he is actually a Bini himself, viz. Ekaladerhan.

Classical official Benin traditions which existed (and in writing), of course long before this new king, all indicate that Oduduwa and Ekaladerhan are separate persons who lived in different eras

Erediauwa’s own father (Akenzua-2) held on to the original tradition. And so did their predecessors.

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And by the way, your assertion that “All Obas of Benin after Ovonramwen … have consistently maintained that he [Oduduwa] was … Ekaladerhan” is a false assertion.

This is false & deceptive because only two Benin kings say such thing, and these are Erediauwa (the inventor of the tale), and his son Ewuare-2 (who is the present king).

These two nevertheless still held on to the age-long custom of paying homage to (and seeking official confirmation from) Ife, at the beginnings of the respective reigns.

Anyway, the older classical official Benin traditions makes a mockery of this new tale. The submission of historical scholarship also makes a mockery of this new tale.

This new tale is regarded in historical scholars as “apocryphal”, as “pseudohistorical”, and as “deliberately unauthentic”. Historical scholarship favors the older Benin traditions, and regards the revision as a joke.

[s]Yoruba traditions in the other hand disagrees that Oduduwa was a Benin prince,[/s]

Duh!

Even the older/authentic Benin traditions agree with Yoruba traditions that Oduduwa is not a Bini. Historians don’t even entertain the new Benin revision. It is deemed nonsensical.

[s]… preferring to rather trace his origin to the middle eastern countries of Saudi Arabia or Egypt.[/s]

Well, except that none of those tales emanate from Ife’s traditions; nor from any of Oduduwa’s appellations known throughout Yorubaland; nor from the earliest documented traditions which states that the Yoruba people’s progenitor is of Ife roots & origin.

[s]The recent 2010 and slightly earlier attempts to say Oduduwa was a native of Ife is not yet mainstream, so wouldn't dwell on it.[/s]

First of all, there is no such thing as “attempts to say Oduduwa was a native of Ife”. The indigenous Ife traditions & his generic Yoruba appellations have always showed that he is.

What you’re attempting to misconstrue actually are transcriptions of the Ife traditions into written form, by actual historians. The traditions have always been there from the earliest times.

Having said that, I actually commend you for at least saying “slightly earlier [than 2010]”. You know why? I commend you because:

You’ve grown a little from September 2021 (i.e. last year) when you got so “2010-possessed” (on another thread) that I had to step in to exorcize and baptize you. It paid off.

Anyway, “2010 and slightly earlier [i.e. 1992]” wasn’t even the first time when historians of Yoruba and African history collected & transcribed these traditions into written form.

There are actually publications from the 1960s/1970s, by actual historians, which contains this indigenous tradition of Oduduwa’s roots being from the primordial hilly community of Oke-Ọra in the Ilormu province of the Ife country.

Lastly, this authentic Yoruba account of Ife roots & origin is the historical reality going by the consensus of the historians of Yoruba and African history today.

Virtually all lay person in the world think “fortune cookies” are of Chinese origin. The historical reality, however, is that it is almost never eaten in China; and is actually of Japanese origin. You gerri[t]?

If you don[t] gerri[t], forge(r)abourri[t].
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Continues in my next comment

Jameseddi1:
I want to put this here. In 13th century the greatest king in Benin history Oba Ewuare 1 changed Benin to Edo. This Edo was being corrupted as Idu by east the present day Igbos, in the west the present day yoruba it was being corrupted as Ado.

So In ancient Yoruba when you say someone is from Ado this means The person is from Edo/Benin. Why in Igbo the person is from Idu. That for that.

Your prince Eko, prince was known as prince Ado/Edo or meaning prince Edo. Which debate you still want again apart from what king of Lagos said it fact the guy was from Benin even his name defined it.

Prince Edo, prince of Edo, prince from Edo. nawa for some people here they like arguments too much

What does Oke Ado, and Ado Ekiti that had no business with Benin mean ?

Christistruth00:



What does Oke Ado, Ado Ekiti , and Ado Odo that had no business with Benin mean ?

Bro don’t say what you don’t know a lot of people trying to rewrite history from 19th century.

If you still go check all this places that have Ado history have a relationship with Benin in history you must found Benin In their history #fact.

If not because of rewriting history this Ado places where all under the old Benin empire same with Idu.

This name referred to this people by Yoruba and Igbo.
Ado Ekiti/Ekiti people who cam from Edo

Onitcha ni du/ Onitcha people that came from Edo or Benin.

Anyone who study history know this are fact.

I want argue about this research for it yourself or ask your grandmother or father.

You mean

Jameseddi1:


Bro don’t say what you don’t know a lot of people trying to rewrite history from 19th century.

If you still go check all this places that have Ado history have a relationship with Benin in history you must found Benin In their history #fact.

If not because of rewriting history this Ado places where all under the old Benin empire same with Idu.

So Oke Ado in Ibadan was once under Benin in your Opinion ?

Ado Ekiti has never been ruled by Benin O!

Ado is also short for A duro in Yoruba which means we Stand

Christistruth00:



So Oke Ado in Ibadan was once under Benin in your Opinion ?

Ado Ekiti has never been ruled by Benin O!

Ado is also short for A duro in Yoruba which means we Stand

I just thought you what Ado mean in your history. It a shame you don’t even know your history

Jameseddi1:


I just thought you what Ado mean in your history. It a shame you don’t even know your history

Are you saying Benin ruled Oke Ado at Ibadan ?


Ado Ekiti was never ruled by Benin
Ado Ekiti People were from Ile Ife

Go and recheck all your History again you are very badly mistaken

Christistruth00:



Are you saying Benin ruled Oke Ado at Ibadan ?


Ado Ekiti was never ruled by Benin
Ado Ekiti People were from Ile Ife

Go and recheck all your History again you are very badly mistaken

I said you people started rewriting history from 19th century. You have still change this one. Soon you people will still go and rewrite the one in Wikipedia just as you did Lagos own

I thought station is ibudu

Jameseddi1:
I said you people started rewriting history from 19th century. You have still change this one. Soon you people will still go and rewrite the one in Wikipedia just as you did Lagos own

Your case is easy






At 25 mins of the Video below what exactly did the oba of lagos mean when he Said
"i am a yoruba monarch" ?






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y0IK0SL9s0&t=1740s



The Egbas of Abeokuta and the Ijebu Colonised lagos but they don't make any noise about it
The Ijebu even had the honour of driving the Benin to the small enclave of Isale Eko on Lagos Island when the Bini forgot that they were in Lagos as guests of the Awori and got over ambitious

Isale Eko on lagos Island was the last Benin hold out that they retreated to and even that belongs to the Yoruba Awori

Bottomline is Awori yoruba are undisputed owners of lagos



From the Yorubas Obas conference 1937 proceedings
Hosted by Sir Bernard Boudillon Governor General of Nigeria
on 31st March and 1st April 1937



Quoting last paragraph of first page:

“The Chiefs were seated in a horse-shoe formation, with the Oni of Ife ,as the head of the town from which all Yorubas have traditionally sprung , at the centre ,and the Alaafin of Oyo at the western and the oba of Benin at the eastern end, an arrangement which gave general satisfaction.”



The fact that Scammers are trying to rewrite History doesn't mean everybody is like that

Christistruth00:



So Oke Ado in Ibadan was once under Benin in your Opinion ?

Ado Ekiti has never been ruled by Benin O!

Ado is also short for A duro in Yoruba which means we Stand

King in Ado Ekiti
King from Onitcha ni du
King from Lagos

Tenant can rewrite history but landlord keep it safe even if they don’t talk about it

Jameseddi1:


King in Ado Ekiti
King from Onitcha ni du
King from Lagos

Tenant can rewrite history but landlord keep it safe even if they don’t talk about it

They are the Oni of Ife’s Sons

So there is no problem with them copying their father

We are even very happy about it and Glad they have kept up the Yoruba Custom


From the Yorubas Obas conference 1937 proceedings
Hosted by Sir Bernard Boudillon Governor General of Nigeria
on 31st March and 1st April 1937



Quoting last paragraph of first page:

“The Chiefs were seated in a horse-shoe formation, with the Oni of Ife ,as the head of the town from which all Yorubas have traditionally sprung , at the centre ,and the Alaafin of Oyo at the western and the oba of Benin at the eastern end, an arrangement which gave general satisfaction.”

TAO11:
Don’t mind the Bini dullard. Hopefully, I’m not charged for “violence” in addition to “sexism”. Lol.

Their lies irk me no be small.

Very predictable little people.

Their lies are so agonisingly unbearable that they turned many of us into Historians

It was Agriculture I was interested in

This was part of what Awolowo saw when he insisted on Compulsory Education for his People

If the Itsekiri were not Educated and Awake they
would have almost taken over the Warri Kingdom with their lies, they are still fighting over Ologbo today that the Itsekiri have been living in for over 5 Centuries , the Bini said Ologbo has no meaning in Itsekiri and belongs to Benin , and the Itsekiri replied that it means Cat

The Ogiamien Family didn’t even know when they were removed from their Cultural Position in Benin and have just discovered they were almost written out of Benin History altogether

I can’t debate with people who even don’t know their history every old Yoruba man know that Ado mean people from Edo to Yoruba. If you don’t know this you don’t even know your history as a Yoruba and you are not worthy of my response.

Jameseddi1:
I can’t debate with people who even don’t know their history every old Yoruba man know that Ado mean people from Edo to Yoruba. If you don’t know this you don’t even know your history as a Yoruba and you are not worthy of my response.

a

Oranmiyan and the first King of Ado Ekiti who was also the founder of the Ado Kingdom were said to have had the same mother

https://m.facebook.com/2141587672629685/photos/a.2141616909293428/2156908321097620/

If you don’t know Ado is what Yoruba call people from Edo Benin In ancient time this means you don’t even know your history as Yoruba ✌️

Christistruth00:



Are you saying Benin ruled Oke Ado at Ibadan ?


Ado Ekiti was never ruled by Benin
Ado Ekiti People were from Ile Ife

Go and recheck all your History again you are very badly mistaken

Overview of 19th Century Wars and Turbulence on Ado-Ekiti:

No part of Ekiti was spared the agony of imperialist invasions…The rampaging Benin armies sacked Ogotun, Aramoko, some subordinate communities of Ijero, Ado communities such as Are, Afao, Ugbo (now Ilu) Omoba and Agbado and settled a large percentage of the haul of captives therefrom in Ikere, their garrison post.


Benin armies constantly waged wars of external aggressions on Ekitiland and other communities in different parts of old Ondo State in their quest for territorial expansion and control, among others. A good reference point is the Ado-Ikere relations that resulted to Benin pillage and attacks on Ado-Ekiti on several occasion. Olomola (1984:2-3) noted that Benin armies invaded parts of Ado kingdom a few times between 1500 and 1815.. Olomola further asserted that the Ewi actually devise a strategy of evacuating his capital city so that the Benin armies would not disturb the Ewi and the rest of his people in their new site.
Odo which was, before the Benin invasion a town of considerable size, broke up as the people sought the safety of rocky and forest recesses and Uyin and Igede lost part of their population in their fight against Benin in 1815.

The development of the Ado Kingdom was seriously affected by external invasion. These resulted in series of demographic upheavals with settlements constantly moved from one site to another. The most serious of these external invasions were by the "Edo" of Benin. They attacked and destroyed many settlements…in the Ado Kingdom… The Edos were invited by Ogoga, the third time the Edos were so invited to settle the quarrel between Ado and Ikere. The line of action they resolved to adopt was to bring all the villages under the ewi to Ikere, settle them there and in this way Ikere would be equal or even bigger than Ado. Ado would then be afraid of Ikere. The Benin soldiers came and sent words to the Ewi Aroloye… He refused to surrender. He did not in any way show that he was not ready for fight. Every town or village under him except Ijan were prepared to fight…


Every town or village under him (Ewi) except Ijan were prepared to fight… The Benin soldiers stormed Igbara-Odo and Ilawe and took them. At this time, Ado town had been vacated. Aroloye took the people to a place called Oke Oko Axis between Ifaki and Iworoko. Most of the gods Ado worshipped on that side: Olua at Eyio, Obanifon at Esure and Are, Ogbese and Orisala at Iworoko. The soldiers pitched their camps near Uyin (Iyin)…Ogbesi Okun, the then Oluyin …was conquered and killed. They proceeded to Igede, Awo and Esure and took them. The inhabitants of Igede then uder Okiribiti were driven in a north-easternly direction to a place called Oke Asha…Edo troops then marched to Iworoko…The soldiers entered Are…The same fate befell Afao. They were all taken to Ikere. The soldiers moved to Igbemo …entered Igbo-Omoba (now Ilu-Omoba)…The soldiers left Aisegba for Agbado and without delay took it and evacuated the people. Agbado was the last place under the Ewi. With the conquest, of Agbado, the soldiers seemed to have finished their job…’

Ewi Idagunmodo (1696-1710), Ewi Okinbaloye Aritawekun (1710-1722), Ewi Amono Ola (1722-1762), Ewi Afunbiowo (1762-1781), Ewi Akulojuorun (1781-1808), Ewi Aroloye (1808-1836) who reigned at Ado but were attacked successively by Benin hordes…‘During the reign of Ewi Aroloye, Ado-Ewi’s kingdom witnessed massive dislocation across the terrain as town dwellers and villagers ran for safety in different directions. Many of the captives from Iworoko, Are, Afao, Ugboomoba (now Ilumoba) and Agbado were taken to Ukere by Benin invaders’.

Samuk Benin never ruled Ado Ekiti the Otun Ekiti made sure of that

Benin sacked Otun Ekiti four times and Always lost Spectacularly that was why Otun emerged as leader.of the Ekiti Towns

Ado Ekiti was under Otun Ekiti's Protection


In the 1870s General Ogedengbe and the Ekiti Parapo Army paid back and almost took over Benin altogether

Seeing your first response shows your level of reasoning and I won't waste my time dragging words with you. Common sense would tell you that Google would show more of Benin Republic being a country than a non sovereign region due to colonization, and you contrast that with Yorubaland that does not have a share of name with sovereign entity? Common sense my brother.

I now understand why most people has refused to respond to your post on here, you think you can talk people down because of some books you think you've read? Just deal with the sore the Benin historical heritage has on you, you won't die my dear.

Ire o!

TAO11:
Oh really?

BiTtEr that tHe wEsTeRn wOrLd rEcOgNisEs Benin. Lol.

Think again. I am only freeing you Binis from a strong grip of delusions. Simply helping you all draw the line between history and hallucinations.

If you pay close attention, you would notice that your people got saner on Nairaland recently — Isawa work o. Ask around.

Go outside Nigeria (in Europe, America, etc) and tell to someone that you’re from Benin. I bet they’ll think you referring to Benin Republic.

You’ll have to do some explaining before they’ll have a clue that there is another PLACE called Benin. Try the same for Yorùbá-land.

Yes many people who search beyond the surface may remember your kingdom as the smaller Benin whose Ọba was banished, its chiefs executed, and its arts looted as a punishment for the murder of some members of Acting Consul-General Phillips’ team.

Can you type your question here in English please? Thanks.

But if what you tried to ask for is the reference to that attachment, then be duly informed that it’s now given in the foregoing comment.

Cheers.

Some people are clamouring for first hand eyewitness and she's saying it with so much foolishness.

If eyewitness according to you never arrived, then the people never existed and if they do, their history is forgotten or non-consequential no matter what they have written about themselves, stupidity of the highest order. Using the 1880s as the benchmark of witness because some whites, sorry light yellow skinned people came in, so only their records validates preceding histories, nonsense. What a mentality.

@samuk
[s]Eyewitness historical accounts of Oduduwa.
There are no eyewitness historical accounts of Oduduwa.[/s]

A writing or report compiled by someone who was with Oduduwa?? Is that what I’m hearing you a talk about??

Asking for a writing (report) compiled by someone who was with Oduduwa is the height of being delusional. I have no doubt that you hear voices. Stop skipping your medications, samuk.

Maybe you should first ask yourself for the writings (reports) compiled by those who were with your kings: Eweka-1, Ewedo, Oguola, Ewuare-1, Olua, Ozolua, et al.

---

In case a really slow Bini is struggling to grasp the discourse here, it is that: It is sick & delusional of samuk to have asked for [surviving] materials written during Oduduwa’s days..

[s]In fact, Oduduwa was variously represented in yoruba traditions as being a deity, female, myth, etc,[/s]

Yes, the Yorubas deify their patriarchs & matriarchs by posthumously admitting them into the Yoruba pantheon.

On admitting a historical man into the Yoruba pantheon; he may be venerated in some regions as a male deity, as a female deity, or as an androgyne deity.

Also, on admitting a historical woman; she may be venerated as a male deity, as a female deity, or as an androgyne deity – e.g. Olokun.

In others words, Oduduwa may be depicted as a female – but only in the context of religion (i.e. a female deity), not in the context of history. He is historically a patriarch.

Lastly, you Bini illiterates throw around the word “myth” a lot as if it somehow helps your case.

You would have saved yourself this gaffe if you had bothered to look it up in a dictionary. Unlike what you were thinking, it doesn’t specifically signify “fiction”.

In fact, its primary meaning from English dictionaries shows that it signifies a historical narrative – but which has romanticized aspects.

For example, the so-called “Arhuan the Giant” (the twin brother of your Ọmọnọba Esigie) is a mythical figure. No, this English word doesn’t say that Arhuan didn’t exist.

In fact, it affirms his existence as historical. However, it simply cautions that certain aspects of his life have been romanticized. And that’s the aspect of him uprooting trees with his bare hands and sweeping the streets with them, among other aspects.

Other mythical figures who are actually historical include: Alexander the Great (the two-horned son of Zeus-Ammon), Oduduwa (the immaculate son of Olodumare), et al.

[s]it was not until 1897, 71 years after the first Europeans eyewitnesses visited Oyo that Samuel Johnson presented Oduduwa as the father of the then yoruba nation. Mind you the concept of yoruba nation keeps evolving with more people being added to the conglomerate daily.[/s]

Lol. Let me get this straight:

Are you saying that, being the FIRST to collect & transcribe oral historical narratives into written-form is equivalent to inventing such narratives from thin air?? Is this what you're saying??

I trust you to quickly deny this insinuation of yours because you must have noticed that your hogwash is now obvious to all and sundry.

But if shame still won’t allow you backtrack from such ridiculous insinuation, then make sure to be consistent and tell us who invented Eweka-1, Ewedo, Oguola, Ewuare-1, Olua, Ozolua, et al -- because, trust me, they there was a first time when they were written down, and it wasn't during their life times.

Think about this: You have no report/writing from the lifetime of your greatgrandfather which shows his name, life, events, etc. Don’t you think someone else later invented your greatgrandfather?

That’s exactly how ridiculous, moronic, and retarded you sound right now.

---

As per the Yoruba ethnic nation, please name me one sub-nationality of the Yoruba nation which wasn’t part of it before now.

Think well before you oblige. This is meant to be a trap for you.

[s]The first Europeans that visited Oyo where never told anything about yoruba people coming from one source or Oduduwa[/s]

Of course they were. LMAO. Olodo.

I love how you're exposing yourself. The grand ignoramus behind your moniker is becoming manifest as each day passes. Pick up a book and read -- you won’t listen. Now, see what you're doing to yourself.
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Continues in my next comment ...

@samuk
[s]the first hand account the Europeans collected from Sultan Bello who was one of earliest writer of yoruba history in 1824 thus traces yoruba people back to Saudi Arabia but it never mentioned Oduduwa.[/s]

You’re an existential paradox. Lol.

In one breath, you’re competing very hard with yourself over how moronic you can be. In the next breath your’re taking to correction.

I remember when you used to say Sultan Bello wrote about Oduduwa. LMAO. Wow! I’ve watched you grow. Good one.

Having said that, the supposition of a non-Yoruba person (i.e. Sultan Bello) about the origin of the Yorubas is simply his own supposition. No more, no less.

Who cares what a non-Yoruba thinks about the origin of the Yorubas? And who cares what year he thinks what he thinks about the Yorubas? Lol.

The crucial bit here being that: The Yorubas of the same period already debunked him right there and then. They made it clear to the Europeans that the progenitors of the Yoruba people are of Ife roots & origin. This was published also in the early-1800s.

[s]Personification of Oduduwa

It's save to say that a human face was put on Oduduwa by Samuel Johnson around 1897, before then, Oduduwa was anything but human.[/s]

Debunked! Lol.

See: My foregoing comment of 11:10am On Jan 22.

[s]1897 is also when the fairytale of Oduduwa began to enter Benin history, it was absent and missing in the previous over 400 years of historically documented Europeans eyewitnesses accounts.[/s]

Debunked! Lol

See: My comment of 08:44am On Jan 21.

[s]Yoruba people are quick to point to the Benin historian Egharevba to help their case, but even Egharevba was silent on Oduduwa origin, he was consistent with the Benin Palace traditions that he was at Uhe/Ife when Benin chief came calling.[/s]

You don’t miss any opportunity to embarrass yourself. Do you? Lol.

First of all, I’m not aware of any Yoruba person (historian or layperson) who turn to Egharevba for answers regarding Oduduwa’s roots.

The Ife traditions (as well as his own appellations) already answer that as Oke-Ọra in the Iloromu region of the Ife country.

What a Yoruba may possibly point you to in Eghrevba’s works, instead, is that his collection of the Benin royal traditions from the Benin royal court does debunk the present-day revision which was recently invented (by Erediauwa & Co.) out of a strong feeling of inferiority

Nope. The last thing that any Bini, who knows his left from right, would ever say is that Egharevba is consistent with the new revisions. Egharevba represents the ancient palace traditions while the recent revision of Erediauw & Co. goes off on a tangent.

The revisionists’ version of Erediauwa says that a Ekaladerhan (who actually his a son of Benin soil) escaped Bini executioners and found his way to Ife (via Ughoton), and that he is one and the same person as Oduduwa.

The classical royalist tradition, on the other hand, had made it clear that this Ekaladerhan has nothing to do with Ife. His story ends at Ughoton when Benin allowed him his “independent sovereignty” at his founded town of Ughoton. He is thus not Oduduwa in any guise.

Moreover, the earliest edition of Egheravba’s work (which is essentially a collection of hotly served Benin traditions as they're received from Binis’ collective social memory of their past) has the following to say about the distinction/gap between Oduduwa and Ekaladerhan:

“Many, many years ago, Odua (Oduduwa) of Uhe (Ile-Ife) the father and progenitor of the Yoruba Kings sent his eldest son Obagodo -- who took the title of Ogiso -- with a large retinue all the way from Uhe to found a kingdom in this part of the world.”

~ J. U. Egharevba, “A Short History of Benin,” (1936), p. 7.

From the foregoing Benin tradition (which is the earliest on this subject), Oduduwa is identified with Ife – and he is identified as the progenitor of the Ogiso suprachiefdom rule.

Ekaladerhan, on the other hand, is the son of the last Ogios. As such, Ekaladerhan is not Oduduwa in any way, shape, or form. Per this early Benin tradition, they flourished in different eras.

[s]The silence of Egharevba on Oduduwa was what made late Oba Erediawa intervened and set the Benin Palace traditional records straight by letting the world know that Oduduwa according to Benin traditions was the banished prince Ekaladerhan. Oba Ewuare have since reiterated his father and ancestors position.[/s]

Sorry, Egharevba’s account wasn’t silent on Oduduwa as seen in the preceding quotation.

Sorry, Erediauwa’s tale (from himself & his minions) had already been debunked in advance by the earliest/classical Benin traditions collected since the 1800s, early-1900s, etc.

As such, Erediauwa [and his minions] invented the tale, and his son (Ewuare-2) simply agree with him timidly.

However, Akenzua-2 (Erediauwa’s father) had upheld the classical traditions – and as such identified in 1937 as a Yoruba monarch, a son of Ife, and a subordinate to the Ọɣọni.

Similarly, Eweka-2 (Akenzua-2 father) noted that Benin kings must offer prayers (daily at dawn) first to the Ọɣọni, then to the Alaafin, then to himself, then to all other Yoruba monarchs.

He offers these prayers while establishing a symbolic connection between Ife/Yorubaland & the rising sun at dawn on the other hand.

He waits, and waits for the earliest rays of the rising sun at dawn before proceeding to face it (the rising sun) while offering these prayers to Yorubaland.

He remarked that this practice is an age-long custom that has been observed by his ancestors and predecessors.
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Continues in my next comment

TAO11:
This self-refuting write-up has long been exposed as yet another Bini fraud.

It’s a Benin episode of “things that never happened” as invented by another Bini mythomaniac who goes by the name Gabriel Omohinmin.

His father’s name quickly gave him away and exposed him and his write-up for the lie that they are.

The link below goes to his column on TheVanguard in case anyone wishes to verify his name for themselves:

https://guardian.ng/sunday-magazine/lagos-oba-traces-origin-to-benin/

The screenshot attached below also shows the same information. He is another Bini loser/schizophrenic:

---

In any case, Ọba Akiolu never said those words. They are merely a figment of Gabriel Omohinmin’s wild & ambitious imagination.

Contrary to these fictions invented by G. Omohinmin, Oba Akiolu has categorically said on camera that Eko never belonged to Benin. But that there was a strong & close-knitted relationship “in the past” between the two kingdoms. He also noted that Ọba Ado of Eko has a Bini-side which traces to a certain Ọba of Benin.

Lagos traditions state that this Bini-side of Ọba Ado is his mother’s side; and that his father’s (Aṣipa’s) side is Yoruba (Awori sub-group to be precise) from Iṣeri.

Cheers

Lmao, imagine this utterly laughable nonsense from the Bini frauds: “I was told by my late paternal
grandmother, who was a descendant of Oba Ovonranwen
Nogbaisi." Lol, how is Akiolu a descendant of Ovonramwen?

@samuk
[s]Possibility of having multiple Oduduwa in history.

Oduduwa according to Benin traditions was a Benin prince[/s]

Nah, not according to Benin tradition -- but according to the fictions made up recently by Erediauwa & Co.

This has, however, been debunked in advance by the classical Benin traditions. It has also been debunked as, an intentional fraud, by the consensus of historical scholarship today.

[s]…and according to yoruba traditions and depending on who you speak to traces Oduduwa to Egypt, Saudi Arabia or recently Ife.[/s]

Nah, sorry.

The indigenous Ife traditions on Oduduwa’s roots (as well as his widely-known appellations) shows that he came into the Ife bowl from the hilly settlement of Oke-Ọra in the Ife country.

Moreover, this is the consensus of historical scholarship today on the roots & origin of Oduduwa. Anything else (popular or not) is unfounded as far as historical reality is concerned.

[s]So, Oduduwa started his career as a god, goddess, myth, a native of Benin, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and most recent Ife.[/s]

Errrm … sorry, this is debunked. Duh.

See:
My comments of 9:28am On Jan 21
My comments of 11:10am On Jan 22
My comments of 11:11am On Jan 22

[s]There is another historical narrative in Benin that traces Benin ancient Uhe to around the Igala Kingdom of Ida not present day Ife in Osun state[/s].

Why not focus on the classical Benin tradition (which has always held that Uhẹ is Ifẹ) instead of all sort of mumble-jumble unsubstantiated revisions emanating from low self-esteem?? Lol.

[s]The late 1400s or 1500s Ogane in Benin history that mentioned Benin connections to a priestly Kingdom in the east[/s]

(1)The Portuguese transliteration “Ogane” is the equivalent of the actual native Bini word “Ọɣẹnẹ”

(2)In Benin’s Edo language, the kings of Ife are remembered (even till date) as “Ọɣẹnẹ [n’ Uhẹ]”.

(3)In Ife itself, the Ife kings are remembered locally (even till date) as “Ọɣọni [-Ufẹ]”.

(4)The consensus of historical scholarship all over the world today have affirmed that this overlord to whom Benin kings are subordinate is none other than the Ọɣọni of Ife.

~ See first screenshot from Adam Knobler, “Mythology and Diplomacy in the Age of Exploration,” (2016), p. 47.

---

(1)Regarding the realm (or homeland) of this “Ogane” (from where he exercises influence over the wider region), the Portuguese texts from Benin mentions the word “east”.

(2)European maps from the same period (i.e. maps which are even earlier than Barros’ synthesis) show, however, that this realm (or homeland) of the “Ogane” lies in the western direction from Benin, NOT “east”.

~ See attached map (from year 1513) for “Regnum Orguene” – Latin for “Realm of the Ọɣọni”.

(3)Adducing these early European maps appear to have tipped the balance of identification back to the “Ọɣọni of Ife” again – just as the name “Ogane” had already established.

But why would the Portuguese texts have even said “east” at all, when the pictorial representation (i.e. the early maps) say otherwise?? The answer to this is both profound and amazing.

(4)Paying careful attention to one of the names/epithets of Ife answers this question beautifully and amazingly -- thus showing that the texts and the maps are actually not in disagreement.

(5)An honorific-name by which Ife is still known till date is: “the place from where dawn comes”, i.e. “the place from where the sun rises”, or “the place of dawn”. Yes, that’s Ifẹ.


(6)It now becomes clear why such a name of Ife [i.e. “the place from where the sun rises”] would be understood, by any European, as the direction to Ife.

(7)No, that’s actually a name of the Ọɣọni’s homeland; not the direction to the Ọɣọni’s homeland.

And that clarifies the seeming "east" puzzle in the text.

(8 ) It is not all coincidence:
(A)That Ife has a name which clarifies this puzzle

(B)That this supreme monarch is noted as “Ogane”

(C)That the Bini word “Ọɣẹnẹ” roughly means “great lord”

(D)That Ife kings are known in Bini language as “Ọɣẹnẹ [n’ Uhẹ]”

(F)That the monarchs of Ife are known in Ife itself as “Ọɣọni [-Ufẹ]”

(G)That the “Ọɣọni” in Yoruba language roughly means “the exalted one”.

(H)That the early maps show the Ọɣọni’s seat on the west-direction from Benin

(I) That this identification is the consensus of historical scholarship in the world today.
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Continues in my next comment ...

@samuk
[s]…and also the Igala traditions that acknowledged that there was a Benin dynasty in Ida for nearly 200 years starting in the 1500s supports this second school of taught that Benin ancient Uhe connections was with the middle belt not Western Ife which is the opposite direction to what was documented by the European eyewitness[/s].

You should think before you type actually.

IF indeed there was a Benin dynasty in Idah, then that proves 100% that the homeland of the “Ogane” is certainly NOT at Idah – and the Uhe of Benin traditions is NOT there.

A Benin dynasty in Idah means that a Benin descendant kingdom is in Idah. In other words, the monarch at Idah is surbodinate to the Benin monarch.

But the facts say that the “Ogane” was a superior and suzerain overlord to whom the king of Benin is surbordiate.

So, the Idah monarch is not the Ogane. And Idah is not Uhe.

In conclusion, your hope of escaping from Ife’s ancient grip falls flat on its nose. It fails. Accept fate. Things may change in another universe. But in this one, the Benin kings are subordinate to the Ọɣọni of Ife.

[s]Summary:
1. There are no historical eyewitness accounts to support Benin/Ife connection.[/s]

Trashed.

See:
My comment of 08:44am On Jan 21, 2022
My comment of 12:33pm On Jan 22

[s]2. Oduduwa, Oranmiyan and Ooni are not mentioned in Benin history between 1400s to 1890.[/s]

Trashed!

See:
My comment of 8:44am On Jan 21

[s]3. Benin traditions and yoruba traditions disagree on Oduduwa origin.[/s]

Trashed!

See: My comment of 9:28am On Jan21

[s]4. Yoruba eyewitness historical accounts began in 1826. Nothing about Oduduwa as being human and father of yoruba people was documented until 1890s.[/s]

Trashed!

See:
My comment of 11:10am On Jan 22

[s]5. Both Benin and Yoruba eyewitness historical accounts didn't mention Oduduwa and Oranmiyan.[/s]

Trashed!

See:
My comment of 08:44am On Jan 21

[s]6. The Alaafin is the king of yoruba people that can be verified by Europeans eyewitnesses accounts.

7. In the absence of any eyewitness historical accounts to support the Ooni's position as king of the yoruba people, his position remains a politically created and appointed position.

8. Although, this is a yoruba problem but the Alaafin is the one that eyewitness historical accounts will always remember as the true king of the yoruba people before he was politically shortchanged.[/s]

Trashed!

See:
My comment of 8:44am On Jan 21

Cheers.

oswardic:
[s]Seeing your first response shows your level of reasoning and I won't waste my time dragging words with you. Common sense would tell you that Google would show more of Benin Republic being a country than a non sovereign region due to colonization, and you contrast that with Yorubaland that does not have a share of name with sovereign entity? Common sense my brother.

I now understand why most people has refused to respond to your post on here, you think you can talk people down because of some books you think you've read? Just deal with the sore the Benin historical heritage has on you, you won't die my dear.

Ire o![/s]

Type all these again -- in English this time around.

Or/and engage the argument in my comment which you quoted.

Cheers.

Jameseddi1:
I want to put this here. In 13th century the greatest king in Benin history Oba Ewuare 1 changed Benin to Edo. This Edo was being corrupted as Idu by east the present day Igbos, in the west the present day yoruba it was being corrupted as Ado.

So In ancient Yoruba when you say someone is from Ado this means The person is from Edo/Benin. Why in Igbo the person is from Idu. That for that.

Your prince Eko, prince was known as prince Ado/Edo or meaning prince Edo. Which debate you still want again apart from what king of Lagos said it fact the guy was from Benin even his name defined it.

Prince Edo, prince of Edo, prince from Edo. nawa for some people here they like arguments too much

(1) First of all, the name "Ado" is not an endonym. It is a an exonym. In other words, it is a new from within Benin.

Omonoba Ovonramwen is quoted by Captain Roupell as saying the highlighted words (translated of course) in the late 1800s. He called Benin City "Ado". That's actually the old name from within my dear.

Except you want to argue that Omonoba Ovonramwen is a Yoruba patrilineally -- Which he is of course. Just showing you that window. There are several other instances like that.

(2) Regarding the Lagos King Ado, you seem to have missed my comment which you tried to respond to. I mentioned in that comment that his mother is Benin, although his father is Yoruba.

In fact, he was born and raised in Benin until it was time for hime to succeed his father in Eko island when he was sent down. It is a common practice in Yoruba culture that a son of the soil who grew up in a foreign land may be actually NAMED after that foreign land when he eventually comes home.

Cheers.