mrvitalis:
50% Igbo 50% ijaw

proofs?

JANK23H:

You seemed to pick out only Talbot from the list of authors there.I had quoted Kay Williamson's 'Linguistics evidence for the prehistory of the NigerDelta'

Kay Williamson was a British agent that worked alongside Alagoa to distort Igbo history in 1960s during and after the civil war.
Either way, if she has any archeological work to prove that Ijaws were more ancient than Ndiigbo, like we have with Igbo ukwu artifacts and Lejja iron works, post them here let me see.
I don't take her publications serious.
I'd rather stick to earlier works done before the British had crude oil interests in Eastern region! As far as history and origin of Bonny and Opobo are concerned.

Meanwhile Lejja iron work site was dated around 2000BCE!
That's how old Ndiigbo are.
You have to be that old to have Igbo population.
No way in hell Ijaw is the oldest ethnic group in southern Nigeria.
There is no archeological evidence for such funny claim. Talbot that first made that claim knew he had no evidence, hence the use of "Perhaps" to indicate he was guessing.

I had already shown why Talbot hypothesis even without the him having the advantage of having Igbo Ukwu and Lejja iron age Advantage was horribly wrong.

Talbot never took cognizant the possibility that Ijaw being a sea faring people didn't need to come to the region from a Northern direction, they came from Atlantic direction!
He naively based his guess on Ijaw having no history of meeting Igbo while migrating from the North, and so could have come to their location at a point the Igbos were not yet in existence and hence didn't need to pass through the Igbo.
Rather than acknowledge that Ijaw Language being totally divergent from Ibibio,Igbo, Yoruba and Edo Aboriginals of Southern Nigeria as evidence of their alien nature and recent migration into the region, he mistakenly assumed it's a sign of their antiquity.
His first error led to the second error.
Either way, he was guessing and has no archeological evidence to prove it. But even then, his logic was flawed. A better logic could have helped him arrive at a better conclusion closer to the fact that archeology has proven today.

Igboid:
This is what Talbot wrote.
Notice he attached "Great" to Igbo!

The " great" means population. He was talking in terms of large number of population. If you read old books of English novelists, you won't have sounded ignorant.

Putindbutt:

The " great" means population. He was talking in terms of large number of population. If you read old books of English novelists, you won't have sounded ignorant.

Nope.
Great means just what it is. Great.
I can show you where Igbos were written as a "superior race" in relation to coastal non Igbo speaking groups too.

Bia Bkkay Bkayy.

Come here biko.
Ekelu olu eke.
This is suppose to be your duty.

Here is evidence of Igbo antiquity.
Real scientific and archeological evidence.
Not an erroneous guess by Talbot whose guess was based on the wrong premise that since Ijaws never met Igbos on their migration to their current location, they must therefore have been no Igbos when they first came.

Without recognizing the fact that Ijaws were late aliens who came from the high sea to the area.

Igboid:


Kay Williamson was a British agent that worked alongside Alagoa to distort Igbo history in 1960s during and after the civil war.
Either way, if she has any archeological work to prove that Ijaws were more ancient than Ndiigbo, like we have with Igbo ukwu artifacts and Lejja iron works, post them here let me see.
I don't take her publications serious.
I'd rather stick to earlier works done before the British had crude oil interests in Eastern region! As far as history and origin of Bonny and Opobo are concerned.

Meanwhile Lejja iron work site was dated around 2000BCE!
That's how old Ndiigbo are.
You have to be that old to have Igbo population.
No way in hell Ijaw is the oldest ethnic group in southern Nigeria.
There is no archeological evidence for such funny claim. Talbot that first made that claim knew he had no evidence, hence the use of "Perhaps" to indicate he was guessing.

I had already shown why Talbot hypothesis even without the him having the advantage of having Igbo Ukwu and Lejja iron age Advantage was horribly wrong.

Talbot never took cognizant the possibility that Ijaw being a sea faring people didn't need to come to the region from a Northern direction, they came from Atlantic direction!
He naively based his guess on Ijaw having no history of meeting Igbo while migrating from the North, and so could have come to their location at a point the Igbos were not yet in existence and hence didn't need to pass through the Igbo.
Rather than acknowledge that Ijaw Language being totally divergent from Ibibio,Igbo, Yoruba and Edo Aboriginals of Southern Nigeria as evidence of their alien nature and recent migration into the region, he mistakenly assumed it's a sign of their antiquity.
His first error led to the second error.
Either way, he was guessing and has no archeological evidence to prove it. But even then, his logic was flawed. A better logic could have helped him arrive at a better conclusion closer to the fact that archeology has proven today.

You sound rediculos with that Alagoa/Williamson nonsense.I hope you realise she did a lot of work on both tribes.This is a thorough research again and not a memoir from a drunk ship captain.

JANK23H:

A town dominated by Igbo slaves would definitely have people claiming to be Igbos.That's what Crow and co didn't factor in initially.Besides Basden's research work extended to Bonny.

And yet Haiti was dominated by African slaves and you didn't have even mullatoes claiming to be black.

Much of the Roman empire was dominated by white slaves from the North of Rome, you didn't have any Romans claiming to be white.

Much of Mediterranean Morroco and Algeria was also dominated by white slaves, you didn't have the local Eurasian-Arab folk claiming to be European.

For a significant part of the slave trade, there were more slaves being imported into Igboland, than being exported. Yet you didn't see any Igbos claiming to be minority slaves.

In all these cases, even when the slaves outnumbered the locals 4:1, the slaves were still forced to submit to the local culture and language.

Yes, it's only in dubious Niger-delta history, where an entire group including all of its elite and ruling class, is forced to adopt the language, culture and even ancestral stories of the enslaved.

Igboid:
Here is evidence of Igbo antiquity.
Real scientific and archeological evidence.
Not an erroneous guess by Talbot whose guess was based on the wrong premise that since Ijaws never met Igbos on their migration to their current location, they must therefore have been no Igbos when they first came.

Without recognizing the fact that Ijaws were late aliens who came from the high sea to the area.

Do you know how radiocarbon dating work?
Do you also realise that there are inaccuracies with this dating technique and that scientists have published journals questioning its accuracy?
In essence, it's not foolproof/Besides I'll take a journal published by Igbo archeologists with a pinch of salt

Shiver99:


And yet Haiti was dominated by African slaves and you didn't have even mullatoes claiming to be black.

Much of the Roman empire was dominated by white slaves from the North of Rome, you didn't have any Romans claiming to be white.

Much of Mediterranean Morroco and Algeria was also dominated by white slaves, you didn't have the local Eurasian-Arab folk claiming to be European.

For a significant part of the slave trade, there were more slaves being imported into Igboland, than being exported. Yet you didn't see any Igbos claiming to be minority slaves.

In all these cases, even when the slaves outnumbered the locals 4:1, the slaves were still forced to submit to the local culture and language.

Yes, it's only in dubious Niger-delta history, where an entire group including all of its elite and ruling class, is forced to adopt the language, culture and even ancestral stories of the enslaved.

May I know you, please?
If you are late to this debate, please catch up.Your questions have been answered several times on this platform

Igboid:


Nope.
Great means just what it is. Great.
I can show you where Igbos were written as a "superior race" in relation to coastal non Igbo speaking groups too.

Bia Bkkay Bkayy.

Come here biko.
Ekelu olu eke.
This is suppose to be your duty.

The usage of"great" in the context was not literal. It connotes population. What did ibos achieve at the time to have been considered great?
superior is a different argument.

JANK23H:
Of the Ijos Dr. Talbot wrote:

"The population of (Southern Nigeria) is divided into three main groups: Sudanese, Semi-Bantu and Bantu... The Sudanese occupy west and central portions of the country. The most important of their tribes are the Yoruba, Edo-speaking people, the Ijaw, who lived in the Niger Delta, and the Ibo who inhabit the regions between the Niger and the Cross Rivers. . .The most ancient of all are the Ijaws, descendants perhaps of the earliest Negroes who penetrated the West Africa forest"

The linguist Prof. Key Williamson wrote:
". . .Ijoid is highly differentiated from all its neighbors; it is spoken only within the delta. A long period of differentiation from its neighbors must have taken place, and in considerable isolation. It is therefore highly likely that it took place within the Delta. We may assume that the ancestors of the Ijoid moved into Delta at least 7000 years ago and lived in sufficient isolation from their neighbors to develop considerable changes in their own language and remain unaffected by the changes influencing those neighbors"

ccAlabo7876

Yea you're right...
Professor Kay Williamson did a great work more especially in building up on Sigismund Koelle's work.
May she continue to rest in power.

JANK23H:

Do you know how radiocarbon dating work?
Do you also realise that there are inaccuracies with this dating technique and that scientists have published journals questioning its accuracy?
In essence, it's not foolproof/Besides I'll take a journal published by Igbo archeologists with a pinch of salt

Carbon dating is more solid than a guess work based on irrational premise by Talbot.
That is sure!

Kay Williamson is a modern day distortion champion unleashed in 1969 to doctor alot of history of Igbo people in the Niger Delta.

Her works was influenced by British politics and economic interest ie how to get Igbos off the crude oil of Niger Delta.

I would take her work with a pinch of salt and would rather hold unto earlier non biased works of Baike, Glynn, and Captain Crow that were strictly about understanding the anthropology of the area they intended to exploit, with no innate ambitions of historical distortions.

Putindbutt:

The usage of"great" in the context was not literal. It connotes population. What did ibos achieve at the time to have been considered great?
superior is a different argument.

Great there means Great!
Great is great!

And yes, the Igbos are a great people.
There are many colonial documentations about this greatness!

Igboid:


Carbon dating is more solid than a guess work based on irrational premise by Talbot.
That is sure!

Kay Williamson is a modern day distortion champion unleashed in 1969 to doctor alot of history of Igbo people in the Niger Delta.

Her works was influenced by British politics and economic interest ie how to get Igbos off the crude oil of Niger Delta.

I would take her work with a pinch of salt and would rather hold unto earlier non biased works of Baike, Glynn, and Captain Crow that were strictly about understanding the anthropology of the area they intended to exploit, with no innate ambitions of historical distortions.

Hold onto yours,I'll hold onto mine.

JANK23H:

Hold onto yours,I'll hold onto mine.

If only it were that easy.
A guess work based on wrong logic is no match to an archeological evidence based on a scientific evidence like carbon dating.
That's for sure!

Igboid:

Great there means Great! Great is great!
And yes, the Igbos are a great people. There are many colonial documentations about this greatness!

What were the greatness recorded by the whites?

...

..

NL server dey mess up sha

Igboid:


If only it were that easy.
A guess work based on wrong logic is no match to an archeological evidence based on a scientific evidence like carbon dating.
That's for sure!

Lol...
Porbeni rest.I showed you research work by George T. Basden that mentioned Bonny,you said he didn't ask chiefs and prefer the one from a drunk ship captain.When I presented the one from Captain Pereira,you said he didn't mention Bonny.

JANK23H:

Hold onto yours,I'll hold onto mine.

Gbam! This was the same Talbot he was priding called them "great" earlier but has suddenly become irrational. You see how their sentiments swings to wherever that trips their egos

Putindbutt:

Gbam! This was the same Talbot he was priding called them "great" earlier but has suddenly become irrational. You see how their sentiments swings to wherever that trips their egos

Exactly who they are,they keep shifting.It definitely means all Talbot wrote in their favour is wrong too.

Igboid:


Basden mission was never on the origin of Bonny.
Basden never interviewed his so called Bonny chiefs to ask them of their Origin,if he did , perhaps he would have gotten the same history of migration from Igboland through Azumini creeks, like Talbot and Captain and Arthur Glynn and Baike all got!
He was writing on assumptions, just as he assumed that because Ijaws stuck out like aliens they are in the Southern NIGERIA, that they must have been the most Ancient since they don't have history of origin from the North, when a better hypothesis would have been that they were late arrivals who came through the seas to the Niger Delta, at a time the Edoid, Igboids, Ibibiods and Yoruboid had already taken position.

Meanwhile, here is what Talbot said about Bonny.
Of course, he had to requote Captain Crow.

.
Okoloama curlew town, good.
But how smart of you to cut half the story, but I'm a good story teller and I'll complete it.

... Alagbiriye who was a powerful native doctor at the time sacrificed his daughter who became the source of spring or water THEY CALLED MINJI!
In my Nembe DIALECT we call it mindi.

In essence sef, wetin you dey yarn?

JANK23H:

Lol...
Porbeni rest.I showed you research work by George T. Basden that mentioned Bonny,you said he didn't ask chiefs and prefer the one from a drunk ship captain.When I presented the one from Captain Pereira,you said he didn't mention Bonny.

Nope.
On Bonny he said "perhaps". He was guessing, he didn't get his info from the Bonny chiefs, neither was there any scientific method to it.
That's why being a honorable researcher, he used "perhaps".
And yes! His guess was dead wrong and we know it. How!
Because we have earlier researchers who were not doing guess work on Bonny, but we're rather collecting stories from the chiefs and kings and recorded them.
Why should any sensible person leave a solid work by Glynn and Baike on Bonny and be holding unto a guess work made in passing about Bonny by Talbot?
Yeah, someone desperate enough like Ijaws.

Captain Pereira never at any point said that Ijaws were Aboriginals to Bonny.
He noted the presence of savage Jos men in the rivers around Bonny.

JANK23H:

Lol...
Porbeni rest.I showed you research work by George T. Basden that mentioned Bonny,you said he didn't ask chiefs and prefer the one from a drunk ship captain.When I presented the one from Captain Pereira,you said he didn't mention Bonny.

Captain crow's work is so fallacious that it isn't even referenced in any academic work.
If only he had stucked to marine taxi driving.

Man was joining ijaw words and igbo words and Calling it Igbo words.

He said the founders call it OKOLOMA after the curlews flew, but it contradicts him because that isn't Igbo.
Yet our hinterland neighbors kept holding unto him and the 1830s expedition

Alabo7978:
.
Okoloama curlew town, good.
But how smart of you to cut half the story, but I'm a good story teller and I'll complete it.

... Alagbiriye who was a powerful native doctor at the time sacrificed his daughter who became the source of spring or water THEY CALLED MINJI!
In my Nembe DIALECT we call it mindi.

In essence sef, wetin you dey yarn?

Nope.
It's Asi Minni!

Water remains Mini in OPOBO and Bonny, which is Ndoki and Etche dialect way of saying Miri/mili.
Infact, Bonny people call sea water Mini-Nnu. Meaning salt water.

Alabo7978:

Captain crow's work is so fallacious that it isn't even referenced in any academic work.
If only he had stucked to marine taxi driving.

Man was joining ijaw words and igbo words and Calling it Igbo words.

He said the founders call it OKOLOMA after the curlews flew, but it contradicts him because that isn't Igbo.
Yet our hinterland neighbors kept holding unto him and the 1830s expedition

And Baike and Glynn were wrong too?

Even Talbot quoted Captain Crow on the segment about Bonny origin.

SlayerForever:



On what basis did you come to this conclusion?

I'm not exactly sure what you meant by "on what basis"
Because it was obvious that Bonny, brass, Calabari were the main entrance into the hinterlands if you're coming from the coast, it was the perfect passage for their business. Do not be fooled one bit that they came to bring the gospel of Christ. They came for their selfish interest first which is to exploit; slavery, palmoil. When John Clarke a Baptist missionary came and was looking for a dialect to communicate, he then began collection of words. It was he and Merrick who began grouping the ijoid Languages. Others didn't because they only concentrated on what they came for. If all necessary information were taken, there wouldn't have been subsequent expeditions.

Igboid:


And Baike and Glynn were wrong too?

Even Talbot quoted Captain Crow on the segment about Bonny origin.

And what did they say about Bonny origin?
Curlew bird?
Okoloama
Okolo'ma
Curlew fly away?

Still a win for me.

Igboid:


Nope.
On Bonny he said "perhaps". He was guessing, he didn't get his info from the Bonny chiefs, neither was there any scientific method to it.
That's why being a honorable researcher, he used "perhaps".
And yes! His guess was dead wrong and we know it. How!
Because we have earlier researchers who were not doing guess work on Bonny, but we're rather collecting stories from the chiefs and kings and recorded them.
Why should any sensible person leave a solid work by Glynn and Baike on Bonny and be holding unto a guess work made in passing about Bonny by Talbot?
Yeah, someone desperate enough like Ijaws.

Captain Pereira never at any point said that Ijaws were Aboriginals to Bonny.
He noted the presence of savage Jos men in the rivers around Bonny.

Good thing you now accept where the Rio Real is.Pereira noted that the people who live around the Rio Real and other rivers along the Atlantic are Jos.In fact he said they occupy a large country.

Putindbutt:

Gbam! This was the same Talbot he was priding called them "great" earlier but has suddenly become irrational. You see how their sentiments swings to wherever that trips their egos

Talbot wasn't guessing when he called Igbos great!
He wasn't using "perhaps".
He could see the Igbo were a great race who were masters in metallurgy, textiles, agriculture, arts, etc.
Baike was left in awe at the quality of fabrics Igbo cloth makers could make, our skilled blacksmiths who could replicate any metal work they came in contact with at first sight, our art works were great, we were adept at producing agricultural products of economic value. etc.
Infact the whole trade in the Eastern Delta was based on Igbo output, which was why immediately Jaja rushed and corned Imo River opening and cut Bonny off from access to Igbo mainland, Bonny died a slow economic death! While Opobo rose.

Yes! The Great Igbo, the superior race!

JANK23H:

Good thing you now accept where the Rio Real is.Pereira noted that the people who live around the Rio Real and other rivers along the Atlantic are Jos.In fact he said they occupy a large country.

The have always been terrorists/pirates terrorising those waters, they were not Aboriginals there.
Even till now, the Ijaws are still terrorising Bonny waters.
It has been a deep source of outcry by Bonny people.

https://www.bbc.com/pidgin/tori-55614847