The Rich man and Lazarus and The introduction of ABRAHAM BOSSOM.

Kobojunkie:
1. So, man gained knowledge of good and evil means God will judge a man by his conscience? I don't understand at all. In Genesis 4, we see that God didn't judge even Cain by his conscience. Instead, He punished Cain because his brother's blood called out for vengeance from the grave. And the punishment? Well, Cain was sent away from His family to live elsewhere and cursed the ground so it would not produce for Cain, but God made certain Cain had a wife and children of his own and even protection so no one would murder him. Cain's line flourished and he even built at least one city. How does that pass as judgment?

2. I don't understand what you are insisting on at all. How does the addition of a law requiring men eat only meat with no blood in it, and judgement against murder amount to the statement you made earlier that God will judge individuals by their conscience? That is what I am very much interested in knowing here.

3. God is True, and His Word is Truth. So, if you are really trully interested in the Truth of God, and not supposition, why not take time to find out if there is infact truth to this claim of yours that God will judge men by their conscience.

We are talking here of the same God who declared that the heart of man is extremely wicked.... God already knows the heart of men, so why would He then need to formulate judgement, again by the way, to measure the same wickedness? For what purpose?

Are you genuinely struggling to understand and connect the dots? Or you want to argue.

So I know whether to explain or not. Time is crucial

OkCornel:
1. Are you genuinely struggling to understand and connect the dots? Or you want to argue.

2. So I know whether to explain or not. Time is crucial

1. Connect what dots? Recall my first set of questions to you. You made a claim about God judging the conscience of men, this from your interpretation of Paul's statement in Romans 2. So the core is where in scripture did God in fact say His judgment of men at their end will be based on the conscience? That is what I am following you to find in all of this.

2. If what you state is in fact God's Truth, then you wouldn't need to add any explanation, would you? I mean it would be as is written, right?,

Kobojunkie:
1. Connect what dots? Recall my first set of questions to you. You made a claim about God judging the conscience of men, this from your interpretation of Paul's statement in Romans 2. So the core is where in scripture did God in fact say His judgment of men at their end will be based on the conscience? That is what I am following you to find in all of this.

2. If what you state is in fact God's Truth, then you wouldn't need to add any explanation, would you? I mean it would be as is written, right?,

Okay, you are interested in proving yourself right. So I know how the tone of this conversation would go henceforth.

I'll answer your questions

OkCornel:
Okay, you are interested in proving yourself right. So I know how the tone of this conversation would go henceforth.

I'll answer your questions

Sigh! I am interested in God's Truth.... that is what I am waiting to see of this.

Kobojunkie:
Sigh! I am interested in God's Truth.... that is what I am waiting to see of this.

How this conversation eventually turns will tell what you're really interested in.
So, no worries...I'll answer your questions, which I have answered previously.
And get ready to answer some of mine.

OkCornel:
How this conversation eventually turns will tell what you're really interested in.
So, no worries...I'll answer your questions, which I have answered previously.
And get ready to answer some of mine.

Recall some of my first questions to you...Let's start with the facts then. God's Judgment is set in His standard, His Law. So to what level should this conscience of mine have elevated me to as far as God? The moral Laws of Moses or the higher standard that is Jesus Christ? Which one?

They are specific enough to drive you straight, right?

Kobojunkie:
Recall some of my first questions to you...Let's start with the facts then. God's Judgment is set in His standard, His Law. So to what level should this conscience of mine have elevated me to as far as God? The moral Laws of Moses or the higher standard that is Jesus Christ? Which one?

They are specific enough to drive you straight, right?

If the standard is set in his law, does that mean those who lived before the law would not be judged? Were there no sinners before the law came to Noah or even to Israel?

Before the law came, mankind became like God, knowing good and evil - Genesis 3 v 22

They knew good and evil through their conscience convicting them. Whether there was a law or not. Their conscience convicted them of their evil acts, so they are without excuse - Romans 2 v 13-15;

It can't get simpler than this if you're really seeking the truth.

OkCornel:
1. If the standard is set in his law, does that mean those who lived before the law would not be judged? Were there no sinners before the law came to Noah or even to Israel?

Before the law came, mankind became like God, knowing good and evil - Genesis 3 v 22

3. They knew good and evil through their conscience convicting them. Whether there was a law or not. Their conscience convicted them of their evil acts, so they are without excuse - Romans 2 v 13-15;

It can't get simpler than this if you're really seeking the truth.

1. As far as I know of in Scripture, in addition to the Old Law, and Jesus Christ, there is also God's Law given through Adam and then that which you pointed out yesterday, the Law as given through Noah.

Of all 4, the one Law where God pronounced judgement against all mankind- unbelievers (those who rejected God) in particular, this from even before their birth is the Law as handed down to mankind through Adam. That judgement was never revoked or change by God in any of the other 3 Laws.

2. God's Judgment against mankind came in Genesis 3 vs 16 - 22. Man becoming like God did not seem to make any difference as far as God's judgement against man in that same context.

3. One thing about God's judgement that I am aware of is tha it is typically final - no do overs. So, can you now see why I am having a hard time with the claim that God would retract the judgement He set from even the beginning, so He can instead now judge men by their conscience. God would have needed to have a chance of mind for that to happen and since He is God, it would be recorded somewhere in one one His Laws.

Kobojunkie:
1. As far as I know of in Scripture, in addition to the Old Law, and Jesus Christ, there is also God's Law given through Adam and then that which you pointed out yesterday, the Law as given through Noah.

Of all 4, the one Law where God pronounced judgement against all mankind- unbelievers (those who rejected God) in particular, this from even before their birth is the Law as handed down to mankind through Adam. That judgement was never revoked or change by God in any of the other 3 Laws.

2. God's Judgment against mankind came in Genesis 3 vs 16 - 22. Man becoming like God did not seem to make any difference as far as God's judgement against man in that same context.

3. One thing about God's judgement that I am aware of is tha it is typically final - no do overs. So, can you now see why I am having a hard time with the claim that God would retract the judgement He set from even the beginning, so He can instead now judge men by their conscience. God would have needed to have a chance of mind for that to happen and since He is God, it would be recorded somewhere in one one His Laws.

I see the angle you're coming from. So the conflicting issue here is the judgment in question. And I'm referring to the great white throne judgment in Revelation 20. Where all in the second resurrection would be judged by their works. Remember, they are all raised from the dead to be judged, so it has nothing to do with the judgment in Genesis 3 v 16-22 which is the first death.

Where does conscience come in? Before anyone dies (first death), they are convicted of their conscience wherever they've acted righteously or done wickedly Romans 2 v 13-15. Because man knows good and evil - Genesis 3 v 22.

So we are not speaking of the same judgment. The judgment you're referring to is the first death.
The one I'm focused on is the great white throne judgement which could lead to either life or the second death - Revelation 20 v 13-14

Kobojunkie:
1. As far as I know of in Scripture, in addition to the Old Law, and Jesus Christ, there is also God's Law given through Adam and then that which you pointed out yesterday, the Law as given through Noah.

Of all 4, the one Law where God pronounced judgement against all mankind- unbelievers (those who rejected God) in particular, this from even before their birth is the Law as handed down to mankind through Adam. That judgement was never revoked or change by God in any of the other 3 Laws.

2. God's Judgment against mankind came in Genesis 3 vs 16 - 22. Man becoming like God did not seem to make any difference as far as God's judgement against man in that same context.

3. One thing about God's judgement that I am aware of is tha it is typically final - no do overs. So, can you now see why I am having a hard time with the claim that God would retract the judgement He set from even the beginning, so He can instead now judge men by their conscience. God would have needed to have a chance of mind for that to happen and since He is God, it would be recorded somewhere in one one His Laws.

I really do not understand your basis of argument but the ocornel dude has answered you. IMO there's nothing more to add. I will leave you with a quote from pope Francis on the issue: The pluralism and the diversity of religions, color, sex, race and language are willed by God in his wisdom, through which he created human [b]beings."[/b]No one should be afraid that God has allowed there to be different religions in the world, Pope Francis said.
"But we should be frightened if we are not doing the work of fraternity, of walking together in life" as brothers and sisters of one human family, he said.
I don't to offend you or you religion but I believe the pope knows more than you or your religious leaders, especially as they compiled the bible you are using.

43Ronin:

I really do not understand your basis of argument but the ocornel dude has answered you. IMO there's nothing more to add. I will leave you with a quote from pope Francis on the issue: The pluralism and the diversity of religions, color, sex, race and language are willed by God in his wisdom, through which he created human [b]beings."[/b]No one should be afraid that God has allowed there to be different religions in the world, Pope Francis said.
"But we should be frightened if we are not doing the work of fraternity, of walking together in life" as brothers and sisters of one human family, he said.
I don't to offend you or you religion but I believe the pope knows more than you or your religious leaders, especially as they compiled the bible you are using.

For a moment, I was thinking my explanations were not clear enough.
Thankfully you can connect the dots.

OkCornel:


For a moment, I was thinking my explanations were not clear enough.
Thankfully you can connect the dots.

Helpful to

Oh yes you did. I was about to thank you for the clarification before...
But weldone bro

OkCornel:
1. I see the angle you're coming from. So the conflicting issue here is the judgment in question. And I'm referring to the great white throne judgment in Revelation 20. Where all in the second resurrection would be judged by their works. Remember, they are all raised from the dead to be judged, so it has nothing to do with the judgment in Genesis 3 v 16-22 which is the first death.

2.. Where does conscience come in? Before anyone dies, they are convicted of their conscience wherever they've acted righteously or done wickedly Romans 2 v 13-15. Because man knows good and evil - Genesis 3 v 22.

3. So we are not speaking of the same judgment. The judgment you're referring to is the first death.
The one I'm focused on is the great white throne judgement which could lead to either life or the second death - Revelation 20 v 13-14

1. The great white throne judgement is that defined in Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46 where Jesus Christ explained He would return to judge those who are of the Kingdom of God by their works. That is the only judgment that is yet to come according to the 4 Laws that I spoke earlier of. If there is some other Law that defines a separate judgement to come, then that need to be made known.

According to Jesus Christ, those whom He will raise from the dead at that judgment are His flock who hear His voice - John 10 vs 14 - 18 & John 5 vs 19 - 29.

2. God clearly judged all men in Genesis 3 vs 16 - 22. You pulling one verse out of that context to assert that a different judgment which cancels out the judgement stated right in the context where that verse is located is the issue here.

3. The judgement declared by God in Genesis 3 vs 19 - 22 [/b]clearly states that all who die in unbelief will perish in the grave - [b]from dust you were made(with no eternal life) and to dust you shall return - a cessation of existence at death. Revelation 20 however speaks of those who have eternal life - their existence did not cease at death hence their resurrection, and according to Jesus Christ, only those who believe in Him obtain eternal life at the point when they gain entry into the Kingdom of God - John 3 vs 1 - 21.

43Ronin:

I really do not understand your basis of argument but the ocornel dude has answered you. IMO there's nothing more to add. I will leave you with a quote from pope Francis on the issue: The pluralism and the diversity of religions, color, sex, race and language are willed by God in his wisdom, through which he created human [b]beings."[/b]No one should be afraid that God has allowed there to be different religions in the world, Pope Francis said.
"But we should be frightened if we are not doing the work of fraternity, of walking together in life" as brothers and sisters of one human family, he said.
I don't to offend you or you religion but I believe the pope knows more than you or your religious leaders, especially as they compiled the bible you are using.

I am afraid your pope knows absolutely nothing when it comes to Jesus Christ and the Truth of God so his words are essentially meaningless in this here conversation.

God is TRUE and His Word is Truth and all doctrines of traditions of men are lies...that is what Jesus Christ said.

Kobojunkie:
I am afraid the words of your pope are meaningless in this conversation.

Think of it like this, who would you trust more in a physics lecture, Michael farade or your teacher using Michel farades' work? I am no catholic but I believe the pope has not only the authority but the knowledge of scriptures that his input must be important and considered. I mean these guys sat down and chose the books to be or not to be in the bible. Apart from that there are thousands of ancient scripts, Gospels domiciled in the Vatican. I mean the popes and he's predecessors basically formed christianity.

Kobojunkie:
I am afraid your pope knows absolutely nothing when it comes to Jesus Christ and the Truth of God so his words are essentially meaningless in this here conversation.

God is TRUE and His Word is Truth and all doctrines of traditions of men are lies...that is what Jesus Christ said.

Agree but was the true "word of God" revealed to you. Apart from the abridged forms of the bible in existence have you seen the ancient manuscripts and scrolls? I mean how can you even be confident of a scripture you have no idea how it was put together You or your leaders did not have the input in it, contributed nada, did not even have the benefit of translating the scrolls from its original aramaic, Hebrew or Greek. All you posses is the final book handed to you by the papal authority ;Dand you have the authority to claim its the word of God? You guys are funny sha.
How do know if paul was real,alive or actually wrote those books?

43Ronin:
1. Think of it like this, who would you trust more in a physics lecture, Michael farade or your teacher using Michel farades' work? I am no catholic but I believe the pope has not only the authority but the knowledge of scriptures that his input must be important and considered.

2. I mean these guys sat down and chose the books to be or not to be in the bible. Apart from that there are thousands of ancient scripts, Gospels domiciled in the Vatican. I mean the popes and he's predecessors basically formed christianity.

I am afraid to disappoint you but simply because the pope claims to have authority does not mean he has authority of any kind over scripture. All that is just misdirection which seems to have worked on you.

2. All that means absolutely nothing at all as far as what is written in scripture and that in fact decreed by God. In much the same way the Pharisees and Sadducees, even the High priests existed as nothing but a nuisance as pointed out by Jesus Christ, so also your popes, your pastors and mogs exist even today. The authority they claim is not from God and has absolutely nothing to do with God or that written by the prophets of God.

43Ronin:
1. Agree but was the true "word of God" revealed to you.

2. Apart from the abridged forms of the bible in existence have you seen the ancient manuscripts and scrolls?

3. I mean how can you even be confident of a scripture you have no idea how it was put together

4. You or your leaders did not have the input in it, contributed nada, did not even have the benefit of translating the scrolls from its original aramaic, Hebrew or Greek.

5. All you posses is the final book and you have the authority to claim its the word of God? You guys are funny sha.
How do know if paul was real,alive or actually wrote those books?

1. The Truth of God is written right there in scripture for all who obey God to see and know.

2. I have seen the Hebrews and Greek copies but why do you ask?

3. God said that Heaven and Earth will pass away but not a jot of His Word will pass away. So, does your trust lie in how men put together the Word of God or in God Himself who says His Word will never change no matter what?

4. What leaders? And did God say you will only know His Truth if you process it directly from the original language it was delivered in?

5. So what?

You know what, can we please not derail this thread any further than this. If you don't trust God enough to realize that His Words are indeed eternal, then I am sorry....I can't be of help.

Kobojunkie:
1. The great white throne judgement is that defined in Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46 where Jesus Christ explained He would return to judge those who are of the Kingdom of God by their works. That is the only judgment that is yet to come according to the 4 Laws that I spoke earlier of. If there is some other Law that defines a separate judgement to come, then that need to be made known.

According to Jesus Christ, those whom He will raise from the dead at that judgment are His flock who hear His voice - John 10 vs 14 - 18 & John 5 vs 19 - 29.

My focus is on;
1. The judgment to come. Not the judgement of the first death passed to all mankind in Genesis.
2. How man is now like God, knowing good and evil. Mankind knew good and evil the moment Adam & Eve took out of that tree. They did not need any Noahide or Mosaic law to know good from evil. Mankind knew good and evil before the law was written and codified.
3. Before anyone suffers the first death, they have their conscience to remind them of good and evil, whether they are under the Law (Israelites) or not (Gentiles/heathen) - Romans 3 v 12-15

Kobojunkie:

2. God clearly judged all men in Genesis 3 vs 16 - 22. You pulling one verse out of that context to assert that a different judgment which cancels out the judgement stated right in the context where that verse is located is the issue here.

You are confusing yourself. For the umpteenth time, my focus is on the great white throne judgment. I never brought up the judgment in Genesis in the context of this discussion, you did. So clear up your confusion.

Kobojunkie:

3. The judgement declared by God in Genesis 3 vs 19 - 22 [/b]clearly states that all who die in unbelief will perish in the grave - [b]from dust you were made(with no eternal life) and to dust you shall return - a cessation of existence at death. Revelation 20 however speaks of those who have eternal life - their existence did not cease at death hence their resurrection, and according to Jesus Christ, only those who believe in Him obtain eternal life at the point when they gain entry into the Kingdom of God - John 3 vs 1 - 21.

Okay...on those who died in unbelief, how do you reconcile that with the parable of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar in Luke 16 v 19-31. These are Jesus' words

How did the rich man exist after death?
Why did the rich man plead to Abraham that Lazarus or whoever should be sent to his brothers who were still alive to warn them about the terrible place of torment? If indeed he ceased to exist after physical death.


Research more on Sheol to answer this question. I've given you this pointer to avoid unnecessary back and forth questions, so we can make good use of our time on this thread.

MaxInDHouse:


Hell simply means Grave there is no thought or knowledge in the grave (Hell) where all humans are going! Ecclesiastes 9:10

The hell exists in the space far above our earth, which can be seen only by the grace of God. The reason is that the souls embedded in the energetic bodies reaching hell for punishments and the divine administration staff including the entire hell is made of energy, which has frequency far above the reachable frequency of the electromagnetic spectrum. The concept of hell will give some control on the sin, which is very much advantageous to anybody. If the faith on the existence of the hell shades away, your future will be very serious and I assuredly tell all of you about this point.

You may argue that I cannot take you into the space and show the existence of the hell to you. But, at the same time you cannot also take Me into this infinite space up to its boundary and show Me the non-existence of the hell. In such case, the hell may exist or may not exist. Both the options have equal probability. In such case, a wise person will select the probability of lesser risk, which is to believe the existence of hell. If you are careful in not doing the sins, based on your faith in the existence of hell, nothing is lost even if the hell is absent.

If you take other option to disbelieve the existence of hell and go on doing the sins, you are lost if the hell exists. Therefore, the first option is always far better than the second one. You need not believe that much only whatever is seen by you. Inference is also an authority of the knowledge in which you believe in the existence of something, which is not seen by you. The miracles exhibited by the devotees in this world prove the existence of unimaginable areas.

The Veda says that the past memory of the hell or previous birth is nipped off with the nails of God (Paraanchi Khaani...). This means that the memory in us is lost by the will of God only. The reason is that if the memory of the hell remains, the individual will just shiver with fear and will be unable to do anything or even to read the scripture. This is not desirable to God, who likes the soul to start a fresh life forgetting all the past and achieve not only the worldly goals but also spiritual goals. Similarly, if the memory of the previous births exists in the mind of the human being, such a human being will utterly confuse due to millions of family bonds that appear whenever it goes out of the house.

In such a confusion, the human being will become mad and the same situation of inactivity results. Hence, everything set-up by God has its own meaning and do not criticize God in hasty manner. A passenger suffering with heat in summer came under a huge Neem tree to rest for some time. He thought that God is foolish because the huge tree is having tiny fruits where as the tender pumpkin creeper is loaded with very big fruits. Thinking like this, he slept for some time. He awoke after some time and found the tiny fruits, which have fallen on him from the tree. Then he realized his mistake thinking that he was foolish where as God is very wise. If the huge tree has proportionally huge fruits, his head should have been broken by the fruits, which are fallen on him! Therefore, patience must be the first quality of the spiritual knowledge as said by Shankara (Shamadamaadi...).

OkCornel:
My focus is on;
1. The judgment to come. Not the judgment of the first death passed to all mankind in Genesis.
2. How man is now like God, knowing good and evil. Mankind knew good and evil the moment Adam & Eve took out of that tree. They did not need any Noahide or Mosaic law to know good from evil. Mankind knew good and evil before the law was written and codified.
3. Before anyone suffers the first death, they have their conscience to remind them of good and evil, whether they are under the Law (Israelites) or not (Gentiles/heathen) - Romans 3 v 12-15

1. So, where is this judgment to come spelled out by the Almighty Himself?

2. Man was already like God when God judged/cursed man in Genesis 3 vs 16 - 19, so, again, why do you think a different/another judgment is necessary for addition to that already pronounced judgment in the passage?

3. So, again, where is this judgment you claim is to come spelled out by the Almighty?

Kobojunkie:
1. So, where is this judgment to come spelled out by the Almighty Himself?

2. Man was already like God when God judged/cursed man in Genesis 3 vs 16 - 19, so, again, why do you think a different/another judgment is necessary for addition to that already pronounced judgment in the passage?

3. So, again, where is this judgment you claim is to come spelled out by the Almighty?

Shut up and stop asking op silly and irrelevant questions.
You are very stupid, your stupidity is something else.

Kobojunkie:
1. So, where is this judgment to come spelled out by the Almighty Himself?

2. Man was already like God when God judged/cursed man in Genesis 3 vs 16 - 19, so, again, why do you think a different/another judgment is necessary for addition to that already pronounced judgment in the passage?

3. So, again, where is this judgment you claim is to come spelled out by the Almighty?

Smh.

Read up on the great white throne judgment and the second death in Revelation 20. That is the judgment to come.

By the way, how does Luke 16 v 19-31 reconcile with your viewpoint on unbelievers after they die?

OkCornel:
1. Smh. Read up on the great white throne judgment and the second death in Revelation 20. That is the judgment to come.

2. By the way, how does Luke 16 v 19-31 reconcile with your viewpoint on unbelievers after they die?

1. And I already explained that what you call the great white throne Judgment is the same Judgement declared by Jesus Christ to come, and the second death is the casting of the souls into Hell, along with Satan and all - Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46. And the Gospel is the Law where that Judgment is indicated.

2. Unbelievers exist outside of God's Law, whereas the parable/story in Luke 16 vs 19 -31 addresses instead those who are under God's Law... in that particular case Jesus Christ mentions the Law of Moses.

Kobojunkie:
1. And I already explained that what you call the great white throne Judgment is the same Judgement declared by Jesus Christ to come, and the second death is the casting of the souls into Hell, along with Satan and all - Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46. And the Gospel is the Law where that Judgment is indicated.

2. Unbelievers exist outside of God's Law, whereas the parable/story in Luke 16 vs 19 -31 addresses instead those who are under God's Law... in that particular case Jesus Christ mentions the Law of Moses.

Oh wow…so the rich man was a believer that ended up on the wrong side of Sheol?

I guess the word believers and unbelievers should be re-examined.

Was Job (a non-Israelite) a believer or not?

OkCornel:
1. Oh wow…so the rich man was a believer that ended up on the wrong side of Sheol?

2. I guess the word believers and unbelievers should be re-examined.

3. Was Job (a non-Israelite) a believer or not?

1. Is there a particular reason why you assume one who is under God's Law of Moses cannot end up in a place like Sheol or a person who is born-again can't end up in Hell(eternal damnation)?

2. An unbeliever, as I have repeatedly stated is those who aren't even under God's Law... they are those condemned since the time of Adam. Whereas a sinner is one who is under God's Law but rejects God or refuses to obey Him. This is important to differentiate because there are cases where you will find it necessary to consider the meaning. For instance, a Jew, one born by blood under God's very Old Law of Moses, may claim to be an atheist but instead, he is simply a sinner who rejects or refuses God. Whereas a gentile, is born not bound to any of God's Laws but instead condemned from birth by God since the time of Adam and as such is an unbeliever.

3. According to the story, Job was a believer... a righteous one at that. Same as Enoch, Abel, Abraham, Noah, Shem, etc..

Kobojunkie:
1. Is there a particular reason why you assume one who is under God's Law of Moses cannot end up in a place like Sheol or a person who is born-again can't end up in Hell(eternal damnation)?

2. An unbeliever, as I have repeatedly stated is those who aren't even under God's Law... they are those condemned since the time of Adam. Whereas a sinner is one who is under God's Law but rejects God or refuses to obey Him. This is important to differentiate because there are cases where you will find it necessary to consider the meaning. For instance, a Jew, one born by blood under God's very Old Law of Moses, may claim to be an atheist but instead, he is simply a sinner who rejects or refuses God. Whereas a gentile, is born not bound to any of God's Laws but instead condemned from birth by God since the time of Adam and as such is an unbeliever.

3. According to the story, Job was a believer... a righteous one at that. Same as Enoch, Abel, Abraham, Noah, Shem, etc..

Job was a gentile.

1. Now what's your criteria for whom you define as believers and under God's law?
2. Bearing in mind Romans 2 v 13-16 hmmm? How did Job, a non-Israelite come under God's Law? How was he a believer?
3. Which of the resurrections apply to Job? The first resurrection, or the second resurrection



Romans 2 v 13-16;
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

OkCornel:
Job was a gentile.

1. Now what's your criteria for whom you define as believers and under God's law?
2. Bearing in mind Romans 2 v 13-16 hmmm? How did Job, a non-Israelite come under God's Law? How was he a believer?
3. Which of the resurrections apply to Job? The first resurrection, or the second resurrection.

The same criteria that existed for Abel, Enoch, Noah, Shem, Seth, Isaac, etc. , where were all also gentiles.

1. I consider those under known Laws such as the Old Law of Moses, and Jesus Christ, for instance.

2. God is said that given Law to Noah, and also to Abraham, so it isn't unforeseeable that He would have given Law to others like Abel & Cain, Isaac, Job etc.

3. One thing you have to understand is that these men were judged righteous right here on earth... so there is no other judgement for them afterwards. As for resurrection, I am searching as to where that is written of but I do know they( the righteous gentiles) were mentioned by Jesus Christ. And as such will be resurrected by Him likely when He returns for those on earth- the First resurrection.

---

As for what what written in Romans 2 by Paul, I believe you do the work an injustice if you attempt to pull out only those verses that work for whatever preconceived ideas you have. Verse 12 and verse 16 clearly indicate Paul was not speaking of a different judgment that those we have discussed so far... the past judgments that are found in Genesis 3 vs 19 - 22 , Deuteronomy 30 vs 15 - 20 and the one judgement that is to come written of in Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46

Valoromega:
Where will the people who lived before Christ came go to?
Hell or heaven

Or our ancestors that lived in Africa before Christianity came where will they go?

They said Christ is the only way and these people didn't know Christ. So where did they go?

Did the millions of people who lived before Christ came all go to hell?

Christ died for the salvation of all mankind. Both those that came before him and those after him. Did you not read in 1Peter 3.19-22 that Christ preached his gospel to the spirits in prison? Did you not read in John 5.28-29 that the dead shall hear the voice of Christ.
One last scripture for you.

1Peter4.6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

MaxInDHouse:


Hell simply means Grave there is no thought or knowledge in the grave (Hell) where all humans are going! Ecclesiastes 9:10

Reformation is a golden opportunity given by God to us. It consists of three steps. The first step is related to knowledge. It is realization or jñāna yoga, which is identifying the sin through analysis. The second step is related to emotions and it involves sincere repentance before God with deep devotion to Him, which is bhakti yoga. The third and final step, is the practical step of karma yoga in which you should not repeat the same sin in your life. Many fail in the third step. It is of no use because the third step is practical and the first two steps are merely theoretical. A person can be said to be reformed only when he does not repeat the sin practically. Some clever people try to exploit this concept thinking that they will reform their souls, just before death! Such over-intelligence brings double punishment as no one can cheat God since He is omniscient!

It is perfectly correct to say that a soul cannot remain idle; simply keeping silent without doing any action. This is clearly told in the Gītā “Nahi kaścit kṣaṇamapi”. Even the Veda recommends action “Kurvanneveha karmāṇi…”. God never asks you to become inactive like an inert stone. Such inactivity is not only impossible but is also useless in the spiritual path. You have to learn both activity and inactivity in life. Inactivity should be applied in the context of doing or even desiring to do a sin.

In other words, one should avoid doing or even desiring to do a sin. Activity should be applied by ordinary human beings following pravṛtti in doing good deeds that help society. Activity should be applied by exceptional devotees following nivṛtti in doing God’s work. The Gītā stresses on both activity and inactivity in the context of these two separate paths respectively. In both these paths, you should do the work without getting attached to the fruit due to selfishness. When you are detached from the fruit of the work, you can do the work perfectly by concentrating your entire energy on the work (Karmaṇyevādhikāraste—Gītā).

Devotees like Śaṅkara, Meera etc. jumped straight to God’s work, avoiding all worldly work from their very childhood. It is a direct jump to salvation from the worldly bonds which is called as sākṣānmukti and is attained by forming a very strong bond with God. Devotees like Rāmānuja, Janaka etc., walked towards the same goal of salvation from worldly bonds passing through all the four states of life, which are known as the āśramas. This gradual walking towards the goal is called kramamukti and is applicable to the majority of human beings.

Severe Punishment Without a Serious Sin

Sometimes, we are punished here severely, even though we have not committed a sin, which is deserving of such a severe punishment. We get confused in such a situation thinking that God is cruel and a sadist. Such thinking is only due to our ignorance. In fact, the punishments for our sins are usually given only in the upper sub-world called hell. The reason is that we should not be disturbed in this sub-world called earth or Martya Loka while performing our worldly and divine duties. The upper worlds and sub-worlds are called bhoga lokas, which are places for enjoying the good and bad fruits of our deeds.

Earth, on the other hand is called a karma loka, which is a place for doing deeds. This is the general rule, but there are some exceptions to the rule. One exception is that intensive sins done here are punished here itself immediately. Another exception is that sometimes, the punishment for a sin committed in the previous birth is received here on earth. This happens in the case of killing animals for food. The killed animal thinks while dying that it too will kill the killer in the same way. So the animal of the previous birth is reborn as a butcher while the butcher and the consumers of the meat in the previous birth are born as animals and are killed by the butcher. In both these exceptions, the soul receives severe punishments here due to intensive sins committed previously in this birth or in the past birth respectively.
The case mentioned above, in which the soul is severely punished here in spite of not having done an equally severe sin in this birth, is different from the above two exceptions. In this case, since no severe sin has been done in this birth, as per the general rule, the soul should not be punished here for any sin done by it in the past birth. Why then is the soul punished here severely? This case is covered under another exceptional rule. Note that God is all-in-all. He is the Maker of the rules, and is beyond all the rules. Whenever He breaks any rule, it is only for some good purpose.

All these rules regarding a soul’s deeds and the rewards and punishments for the deeds are only for the soul’s reformation. God does not give any punishment to a soul out of revenge. He is the Doctor who is treating the patient. The soul is the patient, who is to be cured. Sometimes, God feels that a person will be benefited and his or her reformation will progress better if some punishment is given at a certain time. So, He brings to the present life, a punishment which the soul was supposed to face in a future lifetime. It is like the premature withdrawal of a deposit from a bank, which leads to a loss in the value of the deposit. So the punishment, when preponed to the present, reduces in value.
This is a benefit to the soul. Additionally, it accelerates the reformation of the soul. So, the soul gets a double benefit! This exception is made in the best interest of the soul. It is like the Supreme Doctor, God, deciding to increase the dosage of antibiotics for a patient, deviating from the regular treatment plan, to speed up the recovery of the patient. This exceptional rule, like all other rules related to the administration of the deeds of souls, clearly shows the loving kindness of God, the Divine Father for the souls, who are His children.
God gave freedom to all souls so that they could do whatever they felt was good. God helped the souls in determining what is good and what is bad by preaching to them through holy scriptures, holy devotees and holy Incarnations. Freedom means the complete freedom for all souls in this creation to act in any direction, without the slightest force on the mind, either here or in the upper worlds. God always preaches to every soul to bring the realization of the truth to the soul and to reform the soul. The soul is expected to realize and get reformed only through this knowledge introduced into the mind of the soul. It is the only way the soul can be saved. The only force used by God on the mind of a sinner is imparting knowledge. He does not use any physical force or miraculous power to reform the sinner. The king tries to reform the sinner through physical force in the form of punishment, but such reformation is only temporary. Even the horrible punishments in hell cannot reform the soul permanently. Eternal reformation can never be attained through punishment. In spite of this defect of punishment, it is still used to reform the soul temporarily. Only the spiritual knowledge given by God-in-human-form can bring an eternal reformation in a soul.

Generally, the cloud rains everywhere and the rain makes the seed present in fertile soil to grow up into a plant. But a seed fallen on rocky soil cannot give rise to a plant immediately in spite of a lot of rain. Devilish or demonic souls are like the rocks present here and there on earth. The God-cloud does not use His miraculous power to change the rocky soil into fertile soil since God never interferes with souls using any type of force. Judas was like rocky soil. But due to his association with Jesus and continuously listening to His preaching, he realized, confessed his sin, and punished himself at the end. The priests of the temple never listened to the preaching of Jesus at all and so they never got reformed. They were like solid rocks. Judas was like soil having some rocky nature. So, the seed of reformation at least germinated in him, even though it germinated late.

For a person’s reformation, apart from the divine force of spiritual knowledge, the receptivity of the person’s mind is also important. There are some good souls with high receptivity for the knowledge. They are like good soil and they get reformed immediately on listening to the spiritual knowledge preached by the Human Incarnation of God. Then there are some average souls, who are like rocky soil. They take some time to get reformed like Judas. Both these types of souls are reformed and saved. But there are some other souls like the priests who crucified Jesus, who have no hope of reformation at all. They are like solid rocks and they are condemned forever. This worst type of souls is punished in the liquid fire of hell forever. Their punishment is forever because such souls will never get reformed. They are kept aloof from mankind in the lives of wild animals, worms and so on (Tānahaṁ dviṣataḥ...—Gita). God’s attempts to reform are confined only to the first and second types of souls who are like good soil and rocky soil respectively. The moment a soul is reformed, it is saved forever.
WWW.universal-spirituality[.]org
Universal Spirituality for World Peace

I hate lengthy write-ups, please can you break this down to two or three sentences?

dattaswami1:

The hell exists in the space far above our earth, which can be seen only by the grace of God. The reason is that the souls embedded in the energetic bodies reaching hell for punishments and the divine administration staff including the entire hell is made of energy, which has frequency far above the reachable frequency of the electromagnetic spectrum. The concept of hell will give some control on the sin, which is very much advantageous to anybody. If the faith on the existence of the hell shades away, your future will be very serious and I assuredly tell all of you about this point.

You may argue that I cannot take you into the space and show the existence of the hell to you. But, at the same time you cannot also take Me into this infinite space up to its boundary and show Me the non-existence of the hell. In such case, the hell may exist or may not exist. Both the options have equal probability. In such case, a wise person will select the probability of lesser risk, which is to believe the existence of hell. If you are careful in not doing the sins, based on your faith in the existence of hell, nothing is lost even if the hell is absent.

If you take other option to disbelieve the existence of hell and go on doing the sins, you are lost if the hell exists. Therefore, the first option is always far better than the second one. You need not believe that much only whatever is seen by you. Inference is also an authority of the knowledge in which you believe in the existence of something, which is not seen by you. The miracles exhibited by the devotees in this world prove the existence of unimaginable areas.

The Veda says that the past memory of the hell or previous birth is nipped off with the nails of God (Paraanchi Khaani...). This means that the memory in us is lost by the will of God only. The reason is that if the memory of the hell remains, the individual will just shiver with fear and will be unable to do anything or even to read the scripture. This is not desirable to God, who likes the soul to start a fresh life forgetting all the past and achieve not only the worldly goals but also spiritual goals. Similarly, if the memory of the previous births exists in the mind of the human being, such a human being will utterly confuse due to millions of family bonds that appear whenever it goes out of the house.

In such a confusion, the human being will become mad and the same situation of inactivity results. Hence, everything set-up by God has its own meaning and do not criticize God in hasty manner. A passenger suffering with heat in summer came under a huge Neem tree to rest for some time. He thought that God is foolish because the huge tree is having tiny fruits where as the tender pumpkin creeper is loaded with very big fruits. Thinking like this, he slept for some time. He awoke after some time and found the tiny fruits, which have fallen on him from the tree. Then he realized his mistake thinking that he was foolish where as God is very wise. If the huge tree has proportionally huge fruits, his head should have been broken by the fruits, which are fallen on him! Therefore, patience must be the first quality of the spiritual knowledge as said by Shankara (Shamadamaadi...).

dattaswami1:

Reformation is a golden opportunity given by God to us. It consists of three steps. The first step is related to knowledge. It is realization or jñāna yoga, which is identifying the sin through analysis. The second step is related to emotions and it involves sincere repentance before God with deep devotion to Him, which is bhakti yoga. The third and final step, is the practical step of karma yoga in which you should not repeat the same sin in your life. Many fail in the third step. It is of no use because the third step is practical and the first two steps are merely theoretical. A person can be said to be reformed only when he does not repeat the sin practically. Some clever people try to exploit this concept thinking that they will reform their souls, just before death! Such over-intelligence brings double punishment as no one can cheat God since He is omniscient!

It is perfectly correct to say that a soul cannot remain idle; simply keeping silent without doing any action. This is clearly told in the Gītā “Nahi kaścit kṣaṇamapi”. Even the Veda recommends action “Kurvanneveha karmāṇi…”. God never asks you to become inactive like an inert stone. Such inactivity is not only impossible but is also useless in the spiritual path. You have to learn both activity and inactivity in life. Inactivity should be applied in the context of doing or even desiring to do a sin.

In other words, one should avoid doing or even desiring to do a sin. Activity should be applied by ordinary human beings following pravṛtti in doing good deeds that help society. Activity should be applied by exceptional devotees following nivṛtti in doing God’s work. The Gītā stresses on both activity and inactivity in the context of these two separate paths respectively. In both these paths, you should do the work without getting attached to the fruit due to selfishness. When you are detached from the fruit of the work, you can do the work perfectly by concentrating your entire energy on the work (Karmaṇyevādhikāraste—Gītā).

Devotees like Śaṅkara, Meera etc. jumped straight to God’s work, avoiding all worldly work from their very childhood. It is a direct jump to salvation from the worldly bonds which is called as sākṣānmukti and is attained by forming a very strong bond with God. Devotees like Rāmānuja, Janaka etc., walked towards the same goal of salvation from worldly bonds passing through all the four states of life, which are known as the āśramas. This gradual walking towards the goal is called kramamukti and is applicable to the majority of human beings.

Severe Punishment Without a Serious Sin

Sometimes, we are punished here severely, even though we have not committed a sin, which is deserving of such a severe punishment. We get confused in such a situation thinking that God is cruel and a sadist. Such thinking is only due to our ignorance. In fact, the punishments for our sins are usually given only in the upper sub-world called hell. The reason is that we should not be disturbed in this sub-world called earth or Martya Loka while performing our worldly and divine duties. The upper worlds and sub-worlds are called bhoga lokas, which are places for enjoying the good and bad fruits of our deeds.

Earth, on the other hand is called a karma loka, which is a place for doing deeds. This is the general rule, but there are some exceptions to the rule. One exception is that intensive sins done here are punished here itself immediately. Another exception is that sometimes, the punishment for a sin committed in the previous birth is received here on earth. This happens in the case of killing animals for food. The killed animal thinks while dying that it too will kill the killer in the same way. So the animal of the previous birth is reborn as a butcher while the butcher and the consumers of the meat in the previous birth are born as animals and are killed by the butcher. In both these exceptions, the soul receives severe punishments here due to intensive sins committed previously in this birth or in the past birth respectively.
The case mentioned above, in which the soul is severely punished here in spite of not having done an equally severe sin in this birth, is different from the above two exceptions. In this case, since no severe sin has been done in this birth, as per the general rule, the soul should not be punished here for any sin done by it in the past birth. Why then is the soul punished here severely? This case is covered under another exceptional rule. Note that God is all-in-all. He is the Maker of the rules, and is beyond all the rules. Whenever He breaks any rule, it is only for some good purpose.

All these rules regarding a soul’s deeds and the rewards and punishments for the deeds are only for the soul’s reformation. God does not give any punishment to a soul out of revenge. He is the Doctor who is treating the patient. The soul is the patient, who is to be cured. Sometimes, God feels that a person will be benefited and his or her reformation will progress better if some punishment is given at a certain time. So, He brings to the present life, a punishment which the soul was supposed to face in a future lifetime. It is like the premature withdrawal of a deposit from a bank, which leads to a loss in the value of the deposit. So the punishment, when preponed to the present, reduces in value.
This is a benefit to the soul. Additionally, it accelerates the reformation of the soul. So, the soul gets a double benefit! This exception is made in the best interest of the soul. It is like the Supreme Doctor, God, deciding to increase the dosage of antibiotics for a patient, deviating from the regular treatment plan, to speed up the recovery of the patient. This exceptional rule, like all other rules related to the administration of the deeds of souls, clearly shows the loving kindness of God, the Divine Father for the souls, who are His children.
God gave freedom to all souls so that they could do whatever they felt was good. God helped the souls in determining what is good and what is bad by preaching to them through holy scriptures, holy devotees and holy Incarnations. Freedom means the complete freedom for all souls in this creation to act in any direction, without the slightest force on the mind, either here or in the upper worlds. God always preaches to every soul to bring the realization of the truth to the soul and to reform the soul. The soul is expected to realize and get reformed only through this knowledge introduced into the mind of the soul. It is the only way the soul can be saved. The only force used by God on the mind of a sinner is imparting knowledge. He does not use any physical force or miraculous power to reform the sinner. The king tries to reform the sinner through physical force in the form of punishment, but such reformation is only temporary. Even the horrible punishments in hell cannot reform the soul permanently. Eternal reformation can never be attained through punishment. In spite of this defect of punishment, it is still used to reform the soul temporarily. Only the spiritual knowledge given by God-in-human-form can bring an eternal reformation in a soul.

Generally, the cloud rains everywhere and the rain makes the seed present in fertile soil to grow up into a plant. But a seed fallen on rocky soil cannot give rise to a plant immediately in spite of a lot of rain. Devilish or demonic souls are like the rocks present here and there on earth. The God-cloud does not use His miraculous power to change the rocky soil into fertile soil since God never interferes with souls using any type of force. Judas was like rocky soil. But due to his association with Jesus and continuously listening to His preaching, he realized, confessed his sin, and punished himself at the end. The priests of the temple never listened to the preaching of Jesus at all and so they never got reformed. They were like solid rocks. Judas was like soil having some rocky nature. So, the seed of reformation at least germinated in him, even though it germinated late.

For a person’s reformation, apart from the divine force of spiritual knowledge, the receptivity of the person’s mind is also important. There are some good souls with high receptivity for the knowledge. They are like good soil and they get reformed immediately on listening to the spiritual knowledge preached by the Human Incarnation of God. Then there are some average souls, who are like rocky soil. They take some time to get reformed like Judas. Both these types of souls are reformed and saved. But there are some other souls like the priests who crucified Jesus, who have no hope of reformation at all. They are like solid rocks and they are condemned forever. This worst type of souls is punished in the liquid fire of hell forever. Their punishment is forever because such souls will never get reformed. They are kept aloof from mankind in the lives of wild animals, worms and so on (Tānahaṁ dviṣataḥ...—Gita). God’s attempts to reform are confined only to the first and second types of souls who are like good soil and rocky soil respectively. The moment a soul is reformed, it is saved forever.
WWW.universal-spirituality[.]org
Universal Spirituality for World Peace