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Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by DeepSight(m): 5:33pm On Feb 13 |
PoliteActivist: You haven't posted any question to me. That was my first post to you. So please don't make presumptions - I am not an atheist . And yes, you are appealing to authority. Einstein, no matter how brilliant, was only human. Nothing becomes true simply because he said it. And he had all the limitations of perception of reality that human beings have. |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by LordReed(m): 5:43pm On Feb 13 |
DeepSight: Let me clarify. First we don't know what the thing that preceded the universe was. We don't know if it was matter or energy or magic. Then after the universe began we have no way to investigate beyond it so that too is closed off to us. It is only within this universe do see that matter comes from other matter or energy so if any inference was to be made it would be whatever preceded this universe was some form of matter or energy. I won't make such an inference though since it is an unknown. |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by HellVictorinho6(m): 5:47pm On Feb 13 |
PoliteActivist: There is no such thing as universe/EVERYTHING that exists It makes no sense to say something happened..(past) ..in the absence of time. There must be time if one thing must precede some other. The entire big bang/universe concept is rubbish As 4 thoughts, they are overrated. Even death is overrated. Whether u send that murny or not, it remains that way. U think,hence ur thoughts. They come from you. Itz just part of what makes u. Thats why you call it yours. |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by DeepSight(m): 5:50pm On Feb 13 |
LordReed: Clearly we have to take a step back. I can see now the problem with my not having explained why the universe cannot be eternal in the past, relying on the fact that you concurred that it had a beginning. That was a problem. Because there is a factor in there that we do not necessarily agree on, but glossed over. Here it is. Matter cannot be eternal in the past because it is mutable. A thing that changes form cannot be eternal in the past. Now, this is a statement that a lot of people seem to struggle with whereas some immediately grasp. I would ask that you take a few minutes to dwell carefully on it, and see if you find agreement with it before we proceed. If you don't, I will attempt an explanation. |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by LordReed(m): 6:24pm On Feb 13 |
DeepSight: I can readily agree since at the moment of inception of this universe there was only energy and matter came latter. |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by DeepSight(m): 7:44pm On Feb 13 |
LordReed: This energy you speak of is of a physical nature, no? And it is mutable. To that extent, it is not eternal in the past - i.e: it could not have always existed. Do you see this - if you do not, I will offer an expatiation of that point. |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by LordReed(m): 9:07pm On Feb 13 |
DeepSight: Sure, I agree it was not eternal in the past. |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by PoliteActivist: 12:17am On Feb 14 |
HellVictorinho6: But Einstein discovered (entirely thinking in his study) that time doesn't work like that, that it is intertwined with space and motion. He imagined two trains speeding in opposite directions. They'll record different times for an occurrence. Also the faster the soeed, the slower time gets till it stands still at speed of light and reverses beyond that - and you have time travel into the past! As for thoughts, I'll try to think like Einstein. We know you cannot NOT think of something (eg a pink elephant) no matter how you try. We also know you can't decide what dream you'll have no matter how you try. We also know people can be hypnotized and told what to do - yet they'll swear it was a their free will, that they are not being controlled. All these will seem to indicate we have no power to override our own thoughts, yet those thoughts were just there - we're not the ones who chose them! |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by PoliteActivist: 4:58am On Feb 14 |
*Politeness* To illustrate what I said above check out these two videos, one is a minute, the other is 30 sec. Remember, this is just a fellow human who probably doesn't even know exactly why it works. If a fellow human can do this, what can a super being do? Also note that the guy doesn't remember being hypnotized, he thinks he's just operating of his free will. So, outlandish as the notion may seem, the more you think about it, the more you'd tend to agree with Einstein viewpoint. Also, Einstein used to keep a pen by his bedside and used to wake up and write down thoughts dropped into his mind. As he later refused to take credit for these thoughts, maybe he knows something we don't! 30 sec short https://youtube.com/shorts/LyQ8krZpCtw?si=0g-fpB6HesZNDTv7 1 minute https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ON_Q5RXr44?si=bbshYsaxBclZINzm DeepSight, LordReed, KnownUnknown, HellVictorinho6, francistown, FxMasterz, jaephoenix, maynman, hopefullandlord |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by HellVictorinho6(m): 10:06am On Feb 14 |
PoliteActivist: u dont understand i was not talking about trains moving i was talking about being preceded in the absence of time ...not possible. |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by HellVictorinho6(m): 10:14am On Feb 14 |
DeepSight: how can u be sure the universe exists when u say it was preceded in the absence of time? |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by HellVictorinho6(m): 10:22am On Feb 14 |
PoliteActivist: that they come from u does not mean u choose them the environment makes u to produce them it also makes u to do anything else to choose means to suggest that u have control or the ability to withstand certain things |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by PoliteActivist: 12:36pm On Feb 14 |
HellVictorinho6: But you can see clearly from the illustrations how someone can be operating 100% sure they have freewill when in fact they don't! How it is very likely that free will is an illusion, that we only think we have freewill |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by PoliteActivist: 12:38pm On Feb 14 |
HellVictorinho6: If the universe is a simulation or matrix, and that simulation was launched what we perceive as 13.8 billion years ago. Before that, well there's no b4 that from our perspective. |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by PoliteActivist: 12:46pm On Feb 14 |
HellVictorinho6: But there is no time, there is only spacetime |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by PoliteActivist: 12:50pm On Feb 14 |
DeepSight: Assume our reality is a simulation and discuss eternity, mutability, etc from that perspective |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by HellVictorinho6(m): 2:20pm On Feb 14 |
PoliteActivist: same person that said time doesnt bla bla bla that said time behaves this way or that way well, if there aint meat, u cant have meat pie |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by HellVictorinho6(m): 2:25pm On Feb 14 |
PoliteActivist: even without talking simulations, if u cant have b4, u cant have after. 1 Like |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by DeepSight(m): 2:34pm On Feb 14 |
Retracted. |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by DeepSight(m): 2:35pm On Feb 14 |
PoliteActivist: In truth our reality could only be a simulation if one ponders the matter deeply. However that changes little and its best to approach this discussion without that supposition, at least at the earliest stages of engagement. |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by LordReed(m): 2:40pm On Feb 14 |
DeepSight: My puzzlement is why you are so quick to land on this as the explanation. How have you eliminated every other possibility given that we'd not know what this thing even is? Why do you think that this thing we do not know itself is not the outcome of a whole different process we have no conception of? Why is it not possible it was some sort of universe building machine that expends itself in creating a universe? Or even just magic. You insist this is the logical conclusion but you seem to skip all these possibilities to land on this one without showing why. 1 Like |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by DeepSight(m): 2:42pm On Feb 14 |
Deepsight: Lordreed - Permit me to add that some people have put it this way - when we look at the premises we have built up and agreed upon, we are left with either a self existent universe or a self existent God. I think we have agreed that the universe and the matter / and energy at its root are not self existent and this leads us to a self existent God, however one may then wish to describe it. Banish any conception of an anthropological God in conceptualizing this. We are talking simply about a primordial root source and force. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by DeepSight(m): 2:47pm On Feb 14 |
LordReed: Any pre existing "universe build machine" would be subject to the same premises. It would either have to be self existent or something else caused it to be - in a chain of causative agents which can only end up with a self existent thing. The principles and premises would remain the same. You see, that would only amount to pushing the question one step back. Who created the universe? Mr. X. Who created Mr. X? The question with form an infinite regression - which is impossible in a causative chain and can only be logically answered at its root by the existence of something self-existent. |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by LordReed(m): 2:51pm On Feb 14 |
DeepSight: As you'd see from my response already I disagree that these are the only possibilities. We are so very thoroughly handicapped in exploring this matter since the events are both beyond our current level of ingenuity and the gulf of time that separates us. How can you bring any certainty to this without a solid evidentiary backing? |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by DeepSight(m): 2:51pm On Feb 14 |
HellVictorinho6: To be honest, the only thing that a human being can really know absolutely is "cogito ergo sum." |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by KnownUnknown: 3:10pm On Feb 14 |
LordReed: He is just creating his own imaginary friend like the rest of them. But his god is special because it’s not “anthropological”. |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by DeepSight(m): 3:10pm On Feb 14 |
LordReed: It is very true that we are terribly handicapped in this matter and that, by the way, is why it is good to be agnostic generally, as stated by the OP, Politeactivist. It is also wise and signals the right humility which we should have in light of our smallness in the vastness of the cosmos. However the question of inferring that a self existent element must exist for anything to exist at all is a matter of pure deductive and inductive logic. It is not the sort of thing for which some sort of physical evidence can or should be produced. |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by HellVictorinho6(m): 3:34pm On Feb 14 |
DeepSight: Why say so? 1 Like |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by LordReed(m): 3:41pm On Feb 14 |
DeepSight: I want to know why you think it must be the case. Show me how you eliminate every other possibility to land on this one. 1 Like |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by DeepSight(m): 3:43pm On Feb 14 |
LordReed: Are you referring to - 1. The statement that a self existent thing must exist for anything else to exist at all or - 2. My description of that self existent thing as God? |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by DeepSight(m): 3:45pm On Feb 14 |
HellVictorinho6: Because every other thing could be, and likely is, a mirage, illusion, or simulation. |
Re: Einstein On Freewill; Atheists & Religionists Respond * by LordReed(m): 3:50pm On Feb 14 |
DeepSight: The first one first we can deal with the other later. |
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