₦airaland Forum

Gombs:
Fromt the above bold, Jesus lied to us then

[KJV] Mark 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

Jesus was very clear there, maybe what is in your Bible is

[NannymcpheeStandardVersion] Mark 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that maybe ye will receive them, and I shall decide whether you shall have them, my Father's will and sovereignty counts you know!

I'm glad I have a Bible sha, keep your opinion, me mine. Let the page viewers make the right choice by God's Spirit.

Cheers

The Position of the Bible

The Greek word translated "faith" - Pistis - has as one of its meaning trust or confidence in God and His word.

When the WoF movement is linked to groups with aberrant teachings on what faith is, it is because those wrong perceptions of what faith is has been adopted WHOLESALE by the WoF movement and adherents.

The "faith" of those cults and groups is actually a reference to what the "mind" (the human mind) can do. What happened is that their "power of the mind" has been replaced with the "force of faith" by the WoF.

When faith is seen as a 'spiritual law', 'universal principle' or 'universal law' like the 'law of gravity' it becomes a matter of man's personal mastery over those laws. If man can by speaking cause "things to come to pass" the nature of faith itself has been completely redefined. That redefinition of faith produces a 'faith' that is essentially not that of the Bible. A 'faith ' that is a FOCUS ON MAN and in man's ability to 'tap into', manipulate or control some 'universal law's or even God himself has nothing to do with SOLE trust in God, his power and promises: such a faith is therefore unbiblical. 

In Biblical faith the focus of the one exercising faith is on God or His word. Throughout the Bible what we find are accounts of men and women who anchored their faith in God not in themselves. The often quoted but misinterpreted and misapplied Hebrews chapter 11 by WoF adherents contains account of those who exhibited faith in God not in some 'law' which only the "initiates" understand. 
In the also often quoted Mark 11:22-24 we are told that when we pray "it will be done for you". It is God, to whom the prayer is made, who gets it done for you. Since it is not to a 'force of faith' that we are to pray, it follows logically that it is the one to whom we pray who brings about the results. 

Nowhere in the Bible do we find that we can command whatever we wish into being on our own. What we find is that we must have continual dependence and trust in God no matter the outcome of the answer to our request. 

Faith is to be anchored on God and on nothing else. Biblical faith is not a trust placed on WORDS or placed in "positive confession". It is a trust placed in God and his WORD.

^^^

www.nairaland.com/1790500/word-faith-movements-doctrine-proponents

The above Word of Faith thread actually puts the position of trustman in perspective; especially their very first discuss: Faith in Faith or faith as a force.

Someone summarized Word of Faith as this: The Word of Faith doctrine has more of the New Thoughts doctrine in it than the New Testament. Note the slight deviation from New Testament to New New Thoughts. That slight deviation is the foundational error with WoF. WoF is not entirely false and it is not entirely true; it is a lukewarm gospel fit to be spat out.

If WoF is more New Thoughts and less New Testament, what then is New Thoughts? *Check Wikipedia* New Thoughts doesn't have a strict definition but here are there leading teachers: Robert Schuller, Norman Vincent Peale, Napoleon Hill, and a host of others. These men teach a doctrine called Mind Science. It is the science of achieving success in life that is shown forth through healthy living and wealth, through the use of one's mind. These doctrines are chiefly eastern religion that have come to the west as New Age doctrines. Mind Scientist do not believe in Jesus Christ.

However at the turn of the 20th century, men like E W Kenyon began to adopt these mind science doctrines to scriptures. They teach essentially that the faith that Christ taught about is the same force of faith the mind scientist utilizes to achieve heath and wealth. Kenneth Hagin will later plagiarize much of Kenyon writing as his but added the central scripture Mark 11:24, which Kenneth Copeland once said he thought was Kenneth Hagin's original thoughts. These teachings are known today as Word of Faith (WoF). They are taught today as the gospel of Jesus Christ in many Pentecostal churches in Nigeria including Living Faith, Christ Embassy, Redeemed, TREM, etc?

Towards the end of his life, Kenneth Hagin realized the major havoc his gospel has done to the body of Christ. In a last effort to save the day, he wrote Midas Touch. But it was too late. The damage was done and his followers could not be redeemed. This thread is about Midas Touch but looking at the comments from WoF adherents here, it is apparent why the book is water on the back of a duck for them.

vooks:
Digression. The man at the gate is a terrible example especially for WOFers
1. The man received instant healing WITHOUT any faith from his side. How often do you do that or don't you attribute your failures at playing Divinity to the recipient's faith?
2. The man was not a Christian

Back to the subject, why did Paul's no-resurrection scenario paint Christians as the most pitiable yet they had access to Divine health,Divine Wealth, Happiness and Longevity? Please explain this verse to us

1. Rubbish. They told him to get up and walk and what did he do? He responded by trying to get up and then they took him by the hand and lifted him up and then he saw he could walk. His response to their instruction is called faith no matter how little it was.

2. As though being a christian makes the receiving any less possible.

Paul's scenario in the book of Corinthians never painted Christians as pitiable you. . .He said if our hope in Jesus was ONLY in this life then we would be pitiable. Please read up.

nannymcphee:
Mr librarian, what I mean by that is this, that you have great faith doesn't mean God will grant it to you, it's will & sovereignty is the deciding choice

Do you think David didn't have faith when he prayed that God should spare the life of his child? Yet the child still died

When God revealed to Paul that no life will be lost excerpt the properties in the ship, why didnt he change it, after all pastor has said when God reveals something, then you can change it, if he doesn't reveal it you can't change it

Bottom line:ITS GODS SOVERIEGNITY THAT COUNTS

Nonsense. God always had his sovereignty even before he mentioned faith. Yet his words tell us that faith is what causes him to react. Because you saw someone ask doesn't mean he did it in faith after all we can see people even on NL who claim that they ask God and accept anything that comes their way as his response yet James said that is not faith. How can we tell that someone asked in faith? He will receive because faith always receives. So the question about not changing the situation should be directed at Paul and not NL. We saw God reveal Hezekiah's death to him, we saw God reveal the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah to Abraham etc. In both situations God showed a willingness to change his mind.

WinsomeX:
Enjoy your five minutes of glory; it's all you WoFaithers seek: vain glory and not God's.

Eyaaaaaaa!

mbaemeka:
Nonsense. God always had his sovereignty even before he mentioned faith. Yet his words tell us that faith is what causes him to react. Because you saw someone ask doesn't mean he did it in faith after all we can see people even on NL who claim that they ask God and accept anything that comes their way as his response yet James said that is not faith. How can we tell that someone asked in faith? He will receive because faith always receives. So the question about not changing the situation should be directed at Paul and not NL. We saw God reveal Hezekiah's death to him, we saw God reveal the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah to Abraham etc. In both situations God showed a willingness to change his mind.

In other words, the man who doesn't receive does not have faith?

nannymcphee:
In other words, the man who doesn't receive does not have faith?

And has Mbaemeka always received 100% all he asked as a 'faith' man?
If so maybe the Boko Haram request is apropos.

trustman:
And has Mbaemeka always received 100% all he asked as a 'faith' man?
If so maybe the Boko Haram request is apropos.

^^^
Apropos ke?
Don't bother, he's done a CYA (i.e. covered his rear)
- in relation to that request, he had covered that angle, as he has already referenced Proverbs 11:11 on page 34

but I would have loved if he didn't conveniently skip Proverbs 11:10a, like he did

"When right-living people bless the city, it flourishes;
evil talk turns it into a ghost town in no time.
- Proverbs 11:11 MSG

By the blessing of the upright the city is exalted:
but it is overthrown by the mouth of the wicked.
- Proverbs 11:11 KJV
https://www.nairaland.com/1957135/midas-touch-balanced-approach-biblical/34#27619254

Great!

Hebrews 11:6 KJV

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

nannymcphee:
In other words, the man who doesn't receive does not have faith?

Let me tell you a secret. Always say a prayer to God with these words "Father, may only your words convince me not my even my experiences. In the name of the lord Jesus. Amen"

As soon as you do that you would understand this verse above.

trustman:
And has Mbaemeka always received 100% all he asked as a 'faith' man?
If so maybe the Boko Haram request is apropos.

Let's factor God's sovereignty into salvation. If a man believes the gospel with all his heart and he declares it with his mouth does he have to wait to see if God in all his sovereignty will accept the man's request for salvation? If not then why was this faith certain to receive and how does this faith differ from the faith to get healed?

If you want to know how the bible is fiction, check this thread in Nairaland;

The Bible Is Fiction: A Collection Of Evidence

vooks:
Excellent submission. But do you deny that God had mercy on Epaphroditus? This is a simple yes/no question. Holy Spirit through Paul says He did

God indeed had mercy on epaphroditus as a result of Paul's prayer of faith.

About the verse I shared from Romans, Paul is expositing Election by applying a Torah scripture. Am saying the same principle is at hand when it comes to healing and prayer. God's sovereignty is a rein, it prevents me from flapping gum claiming to be a godess like some of you, it keeps me, a mere mortal made in God's image in my place. James' 'God willing' is exactly that, keeping men from conceit

God's predetermined will and counsel will surely comes to pass, whether it is healing, prayer etc.. but there has to be a human partnership and a definite input from His children in the earth in line with His desired end product. E.g If Moses can't take the children to the promise land, Joshua will.

trustman:
The Position of the Bible

The Greek word translated "faith" - Pistis - has as one of its meaning trust or confidence in God and His word.

When the WoF movement is linked to groups with aberrant teachings on what faith is, it is because those wrong perceptions of what faith is has been adopted WHOLESALE by the WoF movement and adherents.

The "faith" of those cults and groups is actually a reference to what the "mind" (the human mind) can do. What happened is that their "power of the mind" has been replaced with the "force of faith" by the WoF.

When faith is seen as a 'spiritual law', 'universal principle' or 'universal law' like the 'law of gravity' it becomes a matter of man's personal mastery over those laws. If man can by speaking cause "things to come to pass" the nature of faith itself has been completely redefined. That redefinition of faith produces a 'faith' that is essentially not that of the Bible. A 'faith ' that is a FOCUS ON MAN and in man's ability to 'tap into', manipulate or control some 'universal law's or even God himself has nothing to do with SOLE trust in God, his power and promises: such a faith is therefore unbiblical. 

In Biblical faith the focus of the one exercising faith is on God or His word. Throughout the Bible what we find are accounts of men and women who anchored their faith in God not in themselves. The often quoted but misinterpreted and misapplied Hebrews chapter 11 by WoF adherents contains account of those who exhibited faith in God not in some 'law' which only the "initiates" understand. 
In the also often quoted Mark 11:22-24 we are told that when we pray "it will be done for you". It is God, to whom the prayer is made, who gets it done for you. Since it is not to a 'force of faith' that we are to pray, it follows logically that it is the one to whom we pray who brings about the results. 

Nowhere in the Bible do we find that we can command whatever we wish into being on our own. What we find is that we must have continual dependence and trust in God no matter the outcome of the answer to our request. 

Faith is to be anchored on God and on nothing else. Biblical faith is not a trust placed on WORDS or placed in "positive confession". It is a trust placed in God and his WORD.

The nature of Faith is both active and passive. You only quoted the passive side(trusting, waiting,looking,resting,yielding/surrender) and not the active side(action,claiming,stepping out,pressing forward,persevering,standing firm,persisting, pressing forward and confession).

a. “All spiritual blessings must be received,that is, accepted or taken in faith…The Greek word for receiving and taking is the same.”

b. “Receiving not only implies God’s bestowment, but our acceptance.”

c. Lambano–implies a more active taking.

d. Dechomai-­‐which implies a more passive acceptance.

nannymcphee:
Sit down I said, his petition was heard but at the point he was told he will received, he the. Doubted!! Why then did he still receive??

God sealed his lips, so he won't lose the miracle, even if he was a doubter like Thomas.The appearance of the angel and his dumbness gave strength to his little faith.

When the church was praying for Peter, when the girl said Peter was at the door, they said maybe it was his ghost!!

Isn't that unbelief, here they were praying or his release & they are now being told that he was at the door, they conclude it was his ghost

If they truly believed that their prayers were truly heard why did they offer that explanation ?

Yet God pulled through in all

Always read in Context, never force your opinion from a single verse. The saints praying in Mary's house knew very well that Herod had a clear intention to bring Peter before the people after passover. They knew that deliverance in the natural was unlikely and probably not possible, but the meat of the whole gist is that they prayed not intending to stop until they had a definite evidence that something had happened.The evidence is Faith. The fact that they were totally unaware that God had already began to move in the situation is not unbelief but surprise that their prayers was speedily and easily answered by God.

And you were wrong in saying they concluded it was his ghost, they said it was his angel.

nannymcphee:
I believe there are so many roads that leads to Rome!! ie when faced with a challenge, a Christian has many option to tackle it.

He can pray, fast, worship, praise or a combination etc any can work depending on what he was led by the Holy Spirit to do at that time

BUT to say that one can get instant result as a result of one's great faith in all situations is something I will not agree to!!

There is nothing that suggest from the scriptures that Hezekiah got instant result because he had great faith(rather it was Gods mercy at work & the way he wanted things to go)

Where then is the instantness in "intercessory prayers"?

I asked earlier on, the bible shows that Hanah's family went up yearly & I'm sure(even though it wasn't stated) that she went to the temple to pray or at least have been praying year to year

was it just the recorded one that made God answer her prayers?

If yes, does it mean she didn't have faith in all her previous prayers?

As shown from scripture how men defied the laws of nature(Jesus walking on water, his ascension, Philips transportation, the sun being set back etc) I also believe the same can happen in the life of a Christian, YES his faith can make this happen but it's more of Gods mercy & Sovreignity!!

the foundation of this teaching lies in the diety of man & how he can get what he wants & when he wants it, so long as he has the God kind of faith

This teaching is dangerous because God has been left out of the picture, his will has been left out(there is a teaching out there that says praying according to the will of God is praying in the name of Jesus, what's the meaning of this? anything I ask in the name of Jesus with great faith will be granted?)

Hope you get the thrust of my post

No. I do not understand your point.

It depends on what you mean by God’s sovereignty or your understanding of its role in our lives.

You see, the Jews and the Christians both have a covenant with God. The Christians have a better covenant. But when you look at life outcomes of Jews and Christians, the Jews seem to demonstrate the Hand of God or the impact of a covenant more than Christians. The Jews, including today’s Jews, tend to accept what God has spoken concerning his special relationship with them. Acceptance of God’s Word is what faith is, in a nutshell. The Jews easily believe they’re a chosen people and so consider themselves special. Many a Jew seems himself a god-man, i.e. part God and part man and not just a regular human being. The result of this mindset is that we see the Jews with numerous inventions, wealth and power.

The Jews believe that God promised them the modern land of Israel and that after years of being scattered around the world, they would return. They have returned and are still returning. If such promise was made to the Christian, what would most of them say? Oh, God is sovereign. Our returning to the land is not based on whether we accept what God says or not, in other words, faith. No, we have to realize that God is sovereign. So, it may happen or it may not. You’ll never hear such language from any sensible Jew. And we wonder why Christians are living far below what God guaranteed them in His Word?

In summary, there is no basis in the Bible for sovereignty the way some Christians define or use it. The Jew understands that a sovereign God owns the whole earth and decides who He wants to give any part of it. But once He has said He’d give a portion of it to any person, that person has every right to expect that to happen and not worry about God’s sovereignty. But the sovereignty-wielding Christians think otherwise. And thus make God somebody whose Word is not totally dependable. Something they would not do with a human being they respect.

BabaGnoni:
Was it not said with pride and self-satisfaction? The achievements and abilities to rub shoulders with Kenneth Copeland or others?
- the gallivanting to Texas for the conventions too

Didn't the chap get everything and everyone muddled up except the bit about yall talking about "Baba"? (i.e. WOF meeting with clefo dollar, joel osteen and that they talked about Hagin)

Change of tune, is it now, from you don't bother watching now to you've watched Leroy-Creflo's. Theirs are kids gloves compared to "Baba's" laughing video.

Anyway, you are not just only running away from watching these Michael Jackson laughing videos "Baba, Kenneth Copeland etc " starred in, you are also fleeing from yourself, truth, reason and honesty.

Incomplete information? Yeah, you'll conveniently say that.

Caveat Emptor
- Warning notifies a buyer that the goods he or she is buying are "as is," or subject to defects of some sort, the buyer, alone, then is responsible if buyer goes ahead to make purchase

""Baba" doesn't see it as negative like you do but rather it was the fulfilling of prophecy, the anointing which will spread and sweep the country and the world at large promised him

What's the point of checking this forum, for one.
- It isn't a competition and no one is keeping tally

You never cease to amaze! Even before our eyes, you want to change facts that occurred here only a few months ago.

1. I mentioned the Copeland convention, not in the context of rubbing shoulders with him or anybody. But as a response to your assumption that if people knew all the bad things you're peddling about Hagin, they would disrespect and discard him. Specific issue then in the deleted WOF thread was plagiarism. I told you that the charges had been out there for many years, yet when I went to the Copeland convention in 2012, people were speaking of Hagin with respect and admiration.

Gallivant to Texas? Sometimes, I wonder whether you choose to think below your abilities. What makes you think the only plausible scenario is that I traveled to Texas? You don't think I live in Texas, for instance? In fact, may be in Dallas or Arlington where I would drive only about 30 minutes to the Fort Worth convention center for the convention?

2. I mentioned Creflo Dolar, Joel Osteen, etc separately from the convention. It was in response to the claim by your comrade in arms that people treat WOF ministers as a pariah. I explained that I had been to meetings by some leading WOF ministers and the audience each time was huge. Again, nothing about rubbing shoulders.

Gombs:
That's a bitter pill for them to swallow, hence they say "brainwashed". Now these folks would have us listen to their counsel, but not to Hagin or maybe Oyakhilome etc.

Those short videos, i once said it was so because the poster on youtube wanted us to see what he wants us to. For example, the Hagin laugh video, you should see the entire message. It was a Holy Ghost meeting, but some malicious folks cut an excerpt of it for nauseating claims. The below is for the 14th of October


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EICycQb8B7Q

this was on the 17th


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SaJSu_7axQ

this was for the 21st of October all in 1997


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNMoJqMvcHo


Watch and you'd undestand how they got to the laughing.. the place was charged up bro!...by the Spirit......i quit taking these guys seriously a long time back bro

Don't mind these people. There's no video of Hagin that I'm ashamed to watch. Or afraid of or concerned about watching. The Holy Ghost moves mightily in his meetings and things happen. Those that do not understand it can bother themselves all they want. I recommend his video El Shaddai. One of his best. Yet, there, he's running around the room like a kid. These guys would ridicule it. But those who understand the move of the Spirit absolutely love it. And are mightily blessed by it.

Christians are so caught up with grouping and denominations that it's irritating.We all have ideologies and mentalities, no one's faith disturbs ours. When you feel you have said the truth with LOVE, why quarrel continuously over words?

Probably, if we were truly seeking for truth and not just out to discredit a particular movement or group, we would have found truth.

I think the million dollar question is : Is Divine Healing and Prosperity a STANDING promise of the atonement?

WinsomeX:
trustman, DrummaBoy and BabaGnoni,

I humbly request a twenty-first item on your Word of Faith thread titled:

21. Word of Faith Despises God's Sovereignty.

The responses to nannymcphee's queries necessitates this. Please consider it.

I thought your WOF thread was this perfect, complete compendium that would address all WOF problems? So, it's not complete yet in terms of topics?

vooks:
Digression. The man at the gate is a terrible example especially for WOFers
1. The man received instant healing WITHOUT any faith from his side. How often do you do that or don't you attribute your failures at playing Divinity to the recipient's faith?
2. The man was not a Christian

Back to the subject, why did Paul's no-resurrection scenario paint Christians as the most pitiable yet they had access to Divine health,Divine Wealth, Happiness and Longevity? Please explain this verse to us

You do realize one can be healed by another's faith, e.g. a preacher's (or an apostle's) faith? In which case, it is still faith, not your sovereignty escape route. Jesus said the disciples could not heal the kid in Mark 9 because the disciples lacked sufficient faith.

WinsomeX:
^^^

www.nairaland.com/1790500/word-faith-movements-doctrine-proponents

The above Word of Faith thread actually puts the position of trustman in perspective; especially their very first discuss: Faith in Faith or faith as a force.

Someone summarized Word of Faith as this: The Word of Faith doctrine has more of the New Thoughts doctrine in it than the New Testament. Note the slight deviation from New Testament to New New Thoughts. That slight deviation is the foundational error with WoF. WoF is not entirely false and it is not entirely true; it is a lukewarm gospel fit to be spat out.

If WoF is more New Thoughts and less New Testament, what then is New Thoughts? *Check Wikipedia* New Thoughts doesn't have a strict definition but here are there leading teachers: Robert Schuller, Norman Vincent Peale, Napoleon Hill, and a host of others. These men teach a doctrine called Mind Science. It is the science of achieving success in life that is shown forth through healthy living and wealth, through the use of one's mind. These doctrines are chiefly eastern religion that have come to the west as New Age doctrines. Mind Scientist do not believe in Jesus Christ.

However at the turn of the 20th century, men like E W Kenyon began to adopt these mind science doctrines to scriptures. They teach essentially that the faith that Christ taught about is the same force of faith the mind scientist utilizes to achieve heath and wealth. Kenneth Hagin will later plagiarize much of Kenyon writing as his but added the central scripture Mark 11:24, which Kenneth Copeland once said he thought was Kenneth Hagin's original thoughts. These teachings are known today as Word of Faith (WoF). They are taught today as the gospel of Jesus Christ in many Pentecostal churches in Nigeria including Living Faith, Christ Embassy, Redeemed, TREM, etc?

Towards the end of his life, Kenneth Hagin realized the major havoc his gospel has done to the body of Christ. In a last effort to save the day, he wrote Midas Touch. But it was too late. The damage was done and his followers could not be redeemed. This thread is about Midas Touch but looking at the comments from WoF adherents here, it is apparent why the book is water on the back of a duck for them.

If you believe that WOF is about the "force of faith" and confessions, why do you then claim that Jim Bakker is WOF? Can you show me anywhere he thought in such manner? You see, when it suits you, you claim you know what WOF is about. When it doesn't suit you, you claim WOF is not a body of doctrine and link anybody you feel like including to the group, to advance your agenda.

Please don't call rubbish the Word of God. Read this verse under any translation and you will find that you are adding to the scriptures. There is a warning against adding to the Word.

Let's read together

Acts 3:4-7 (ESV)
4 And Peter directed his gaze at him, as did John, and said, “Look at us.” 5 And he fixed his attention on them, expecting to receive something from them. 6 But Peter said, “I have no silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk!” 7 And he took him by the right hand and raised him up, and immediately his feet and ankles were made strong.

The man did not try to stand up on his own in response to Peter's command. That's an invention. Peter took his hand and raised him up.
Please don't add to scriptures. You may wish me death by car crash or suicide by poisoning but don't add to the Scriptures. That's depravity

Besides, Peter raised up Dorcas and Paul raised Eutychus. These two were impervious to faith since they were dead. How much faith did their corpses muster?

mbaemeka:
1. Rubbish. They told him to get up and walk and what did he do? He responded by trying to get up and then they took him by the hand and lifted him up and then he saw he could walk. His response to their instruction is called faith no matter how little it was.

2. As though being a christian makes the receiving any less possible.

Paul's scenario in the book of Corinthians never painted Christians as pitiable you. . .He said if our hope in Jesus was ONLY in this life then we would be pitiable. Please read up.

Salvation and healing are as different as day and night. Here is why
1. Before a man can fall down on his knees in repentance, the Holy Spirit MUST have drawn him to Christ and convicted him of his sins. So God's work in a man does not start in repentance, that's a culmination. Why would God draw you to him and then keep you in your sinful state?

2. From Peter's experience at Cornelius house, we see that even a prayer of repentance is unnecessary, they received the gift reserved for those who repent just from hearing. This just confirms how God is more than eager adopt us

3. There are incidences of healing not procured instantly but NO slightest hint of delayed acceptance of repenting sinners. Epaphroditus fell sick and approached death before God had mercy. His healing was not instant. Timothy had frequent ailments and regardless of how you translate the word ailment, it was something God could have dealt with there and then but he didn't. Instead, Paul hit the naturopathy route. Trophimus,Paul's co-worker was too sick to travel with him.

4. So you have two options, explain away these three instances as lack of faith or revise your false belief in INSTANT. Paul's thorn in the flesh I omitted for obvious reasons; you have nothing to say about it

Does the fact that they never received healing instantly void Jesus promise of responding to their faith? Nope, it just points to sovereignty. Faith, prayers and scriptures don't suspend God's sovereignty contrary to your fantasies, it is still up to God and that's why Paul says God had mercy on Epaphroditus.

So you can name ANY man of faith you can think of and I can show you a string of not-so-instant prayers answered or not answered according to his petition

mbaemeka:
Let's factor God's sovereignty into salvation. If a man believes the gospel with all his heart and he declares it with his mouth does he have to wait to see if God in all his sovereignty will accept the man's request for salvation? If not then why was this faith certain to receive and how does this faith differ from the faith to get healed?

Please consider this from my daily devotionals and meditations. I hope you find it relevant to this thread.

#35. Colossians 1: 8

Colossians 1:8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.

2. Spirit.

It is instructive to note that this verse has the only reference to the Holy Spirit in the epistle to the Colossians.

It is necessary to say this because it is important we lay emphasis on what the bible emphasises and deemphasize what it does also. The bible has a rich theology on the Person of the Holy Spirit and this writer does not deny this. But the story of the New Testament is not about the Holy Spirit but about Jesus Christ, his redemptive works and the graces of God that comes as a result of this. Jesus himself said that the Spirit will not speak of himself but rather glorify Christ (John 16:13-14). And it is only when Jesus is lifted up that he will draw men to himself.

There is an unhealthy emphasis placed on the Holy Spirit today especially among Pentecostals that results in people being deprived of some other rich emphasis of the bible. We find some people extending their pagan devotion to mysticism into Christianity by encouraging practices and experiences that are so called "Spirit inspired". Many of such experiences having no foundation in the scriptures. Our duty as students of the bible is to remain within the written words of the bible and to discard any experience, no matter how spiritual, not found within Holy Scripture.

John MacArthur defined mysticism as "the pursuit of a deeper or higher subjective religious experience. It is the belief that spiritual reality is perceived apart from the human intellect and natural senses. It looks for truth internally, weighing feelings, intuition, and other internal sensations more heavily than objective, observable, external data. Mysticism ultimately derives its authority from a self-actualized, self authenticated light arising from within. This irrational and anti- intellectual approach is the antithesis of Christian theology".

The root of much error in the church today is the result of "new" revelations supposedly from the Holy Spirit, coming not from scriptures but from some subjective experiences usually from the inside of the individual. It comes many times with a "spiritual" tone of "God told me...". Anything God has needed to say are here in the the bible. Our duty is to plead with him to grant us understanding of biblical text and make them relevant to us today. We are not called to go pursuing "spiritual" experiences.

Remain blessed.

https://m./845369155482355?view=permalink&id=878469818838955&refid=18&_ft_&__tn__=%2As

Well expounded. I like it....

Very true. You should be telling that to mbaemeka.
Here are all the scenarios that are recorded to have generated miracles;
1. Faith on BOTH the potential miracle candidate and the one praying
2. Faith on the potential miracle candidate alone like the woman with issue of blood,
3. Faith on the part of one praying alone like in this case or raising the dead or restoring the severed soldier's ear

Lack of faith is not the same thing as faithlessness. The dead can't possibly muster faith. This is different from those who doubted Jesus too much and as such he couldn't heal or perform miracles.

Since we have evidence of miracles being procured WITHOUT ANY faith on the part of the recipient,we should not be hearing lack-of-faith excuses from WOFers whenever they fail to procure a miracle because the potential recipients had some faith to start with. I seldom hear them blaming their own lack of faith, it is always the recipient. Proud pricks

nlMediator:
You do realize one can be healed by another's faith, e.g. a preacher's (or an apostle's) faith? In which case, it is still faith, not your sovereignty escape route. Jesus said the disciples could not heal the kid in Mark 9 because the disciples lacked sufficient faith.

NobleG1:
If you want to know how the bible is fiction, check this thread in Nairaland;

The Bible Is Fiction: A Collection Of Evidence

So when you have nothing to contribute you just concluded like a lazy man.

So to you and your likes Bible characters and their documented works which spanned through hundreds of years are a fiction. You and your authors made me laugh.

Thank you sir,
That is what we mean by God's sovereignty.God has mercy on whom He will. He healed a Syrian of leprosy and left all the Jewish lepers

The moment you realize that it is all up to Him, you don't make some of the arrogant statements we hear from WOFers. They hate the word mercy because it exposes their place as mere mortals and not goDs, they are used to ordering Jesus like he is their small bro. This is blasphemy. It is quite possible the reason WOFers don't achieve as many miracles is because God resists their pride.

Bidam:
[b]God indeed had mercy on epaphroditus [/b]as a result of Paul's prayer of faith.
God's predetermined will and counsel will surely comes to pass, whether it is healing, prayer etc.. but there has to be a human partnership and a definite input from His children in the earth in line with His desired end product. E.g If Moses can't take the children to the promise land, Joshua will.

owo2000:
Well expounded. I like it....

All thanks to the Holy Spirit via Kenneth Hagin

mbaemeka:
Let's factor God's sovereignty into salvation. If a man believes the gospel with all his heart and he declares it with his mouth does he have to wait to see if God in all his sovereignty will accept the man's request for salvation? If not then why was this faith certain to receive and how does this faith differ from the faith to get healed?

I believe vooks has clearly answered your questions.

@Gombs Mbaemeka
Hi Brothers, got an email I can reach you on? I'd like to share something with you.