shdemidemi:


But we see things like eternal destruction every where in scripture
Matthew 25
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into [size=24pt]everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels[/size]:

We can't just ignore all of these,or can we?

Eternal destruction is all about destruction that last till eternity.if it torture, it won't be a big deal for the bible to tell us that it is eternlq torture.Eternal fire showing the flames are always there.
The second death happens at the lake of fire. It is death and not life in torture.

shdemidemi:


I don't think it has anything to do with english.. their Hebrew name behemah which is different from malak/angel.

u didn't get it. let me try again
etymologically speaking, the english word "beast" is not as a result of your assertion viz:
"They are not a living soul(inner man and outer man) like man and that is why they are referred to as beast."

i.e english word does not have any definition or ascription of a beast as a being which has no living soul like man

In order words, in the strictest sense of logical english language construction, your assertion is wrong

If for example, you say a cuckoo is called a cuckoo because that's the sound it makes, then you could be very right
but if you say a goat is called a goat because it bleats, this wont be an accurate reflection of the reason behind a goat being called the name goat.
English called that animal that bleats a goat. It could have called it any other name
So now you also call it goat when speaking english

..i could explain further

lastmessenger:

Eternal destruction is all about destruction that last till eternity.if it torture, it won't be a big deal for the bible to tell us that it is eternlq torture.Eternal fire showing the flames are always there.
The second death happens at the lake of fire. It is death and not life in torture.

This your interpretation is away from scriptures...

It is a place of unquenchable fires .. even the worms there will not die...
Mark 9
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

[size=28pt]48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched[/size].

Do you need it clearer, I will keep pasting them if you want.

lastmessenger:

To set the record straight I am not in anyway saying there is no hell. Infact hell is terrible and painful to be in. Sorry for those that will land there. My interest is to show how it is and not how they say it is. Hell fire represent the second death and am convinced the endpoint of those who go there is a discontinuation of their existence and that will definitely take a painful process to achieve. That is why Jesus will say there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The whole painful process ends in death and not a continued torture.

Revelation 20v10 -And the devil that deceiveth them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER.

This scripture describes the experience of the lake of fire and of those who end up there. And it in no way supports the view point of the cessation of existence.

The TORMENT of those who go to the lake of fire is DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER.

Someone who ceases to exist CANNOT be tormented for ever and ever. Because he would be no more alive, animate or conscious. He can't see, feel, cry or be in pain or torment anymore if he ceases to exist.

If the lake of fire obliterates its occupants into non-existence, then their torment cannot be "DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER"

Unless for ever and ever has another meaning other than the meaning the scripture gives it -which means something that has no end.

But it doesn't.

Revelation 4v9 -And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to Him that sat on the throne, WHO LIVETH FOR EVER AND EVER.

Can you see that?

The same "for ever and ever" that the scripture uses to quality the longevity of the existence of God, is the same "for ever and ever" the scripture uses to qualify the longevity of the torment of those who go to the lake of fire.

shdemidemi:


Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire , prepared for the devil and his angels

that a fire is everlasting doesn't' necessarily mean that folks burn in it continuously
after all and so to speak, if you put paper into an everlasting fire, the paper will burn off, while the fire continues unabated

esere826:


u didn't get it. let me try again
etymologically speaking, the english word "beast" is not as a result of your assertion viz:
"They are not a living soul(inner man and outer man) like man and that is why they are referred to as beast."

i.e english word does not have any definition or ascription of a beast as a being which has no living soul like man

In order words, in the strictest sense of logical english language construction, your assertion is wrong

If for example, you say a cuckoo is called a cuckoo because that's the sound it makes, then you could be very right
but if you say a goat is called a goat because it bleats, this wont be an accurate reflection of the reason behind a goat being called the name goat.
English called that animal that bleats a goat. It could have called it any other name
So now you also call it goat when speaking english

..i could explain further

Bro .. why do we give names to things in the first place?

behemah is called beast in the english language, I see no problem with the name. do we really have to overstretch the issue of names, is it pertinent to the discourse in any way?

esere826:


that a fire is everlasting doesn't' necessarily mean that folks burn in it continuously
after all and so to speak, if you put paper into an everlasting fire, the paper will burn off, while the fire continues unabated

As one who knows exactly what awaits the wicked, Jesus told the story of a rich man who was tormented in hell:

And the rich man cried out and said, “Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, [size=24pt]for I am in agony in this flame[/size].”

But Abraham said, “Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.” (Luke 16:24-26)

From this graphic interpretation of hell, does it seem like it is a one time destruction or a continuous torture of the wicked?

What will the fire be burning in eternity if all that's thrown there will be burned up in seconds?
Are you accusing your Creator of arson?
Wait, even arsonists have a purpose for lighting up fires. You just accused God of a meaningless exercise. But then again, may be the eternal fire looks cute

esere826:


that a fire is everlasting doesn't' necessarily mean that folks burn in it continuously
after all and so to speak, if you put paper into an everlasting fire, the paper will burn off, while the fire continues unabated

esere826:


that a fire is everlasting doesn't' necessarily mean that folks burn in it continuously
after all and so to speak, if you put paper into an everlasting fire, the paper will burn off, while the fire continues unabated

Revelation 20v10 -And the devil that deceiveth them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER.

This scripture describes the experience of the lake of fire and of those who end up there. And it in no way supports the view point of the cessation of existence.

The TORMENT of those who go to the lake of fire is DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER.

Someone who ceases to exist CANNOT be tormented for ever and ever. Because he would be no more alive, animate or conscious. He can't see, feel, cry or be in pain or torment anymore if he ceases to exist.

If the lake of fire obliterates its occupants into non-existence, then their torment cannot be "DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER"

Unless for ever and ever has another meaning other than the meaning the scripture gives it -which means something that has no end.

But it doesn't.

Revelation 4v9 -And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to Him that sat on the throne, WHO LIVETH FOR EVER AND EVER.

Can you see that?

The same "for ever and ever" that the scripture uses to quality the longevity of the existence of God, is the same "for ever and ever" the scripture uses to qualify the longevity of the torment of those who go to the lake of fire.

shdemidemi:


Bro .. why do we give names to things in the first place?

behemah is called beast in the english language, I see no problem with the name. do we really have to overstretch the issue of names, is it pertinent to the discourse in any way?

I agree
no need to overstretch it
but for the sake of knowledge, it is generally useful for you and others to understand these word/name nuances
pls correct me if i am wrong

For example if you say someone was called Adam because he was taken from the earth, then you are technically correct
but if you say someone is called Man because he was taken from the earth,... then you are not correct
although the hebrew word Adam roughly translates to man in english, but their etymology is different

shdemidemi:

As one who knows exactly what awaits the wicked, Jesus told the story of a rich man who was tormented in hell:

And the rich man cried out and said, “Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.”

But Abraham said, “Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.” (Luke 16:24-26)

From this graphic interpretation of hell, does it seem like it is a one time destruction or a continuous torture of the wicked?

yes, this looks close to the widely held view of hell all right. I'm almost inclined to agree with you
but let me push a little further

I thought that there is a teaching that suggests that abraham's side of the divide was evacuated with the resurection of the lord
is there no possibility that the fiery part would also be evacuated and and its inhabitants permanently deleted?

vooks:
What will the fire be burning in eternity if all that's thrown there will be burned up in seconds?
Are you accusing your Creator of arson?
Wait, even arsonists have a purpose for lighting up fires. You just accused God of a meaningless exercise. But then again, may be the eternal fire looks cute

I think i just accused him of being Hitler.

You happy now?

@ayoku777

I've trashed your bit earlier
check the 2nd or 3rd page i think

if you cant find it, inform me so i repost it

esere826:


yes, this looks close to the widely held view of hell all right. I'm almost inclined to agree with you
but let me push a little further

I thought that there is a teaching that suggests that abraham's side of the divide was evacuated with the resurection of the lord
is there no possibility that the fiery part would also be evacuated and and its inhabitants permanently deleted?

Nothing suggest that hell will be evacuated so I won't infer, will you?

shdemidemi:

Nothing suggest that hell will be evacuated so I won't infer, will you?

maybe not the right words
but since we can do away with these little nuances in words
there seems to be a suggestion in revelation that hell will be evacuated form its present location an cast into the lake of fire
there is also a suggestion in revelation that "hell" would give up its dead prior to this happening

shdemidemi:


Nothing suggest that hell will be evacuated so I won't infer, will you?

If believers who died before the NT went to be in Abraham's bosom, where did people who died before Abraham go to when they died, i.e from Adam ?

Thanks.

esere826:
@ayoku777

I've trashed your bit earlier
check the 2nd or 3rd page i think

if you cant find it, inform me so i repost it

I guess you're referring to this post below

esere826:


this is a better argument for hell
However it says little or nothing about humans burning forever and ever, whereas it distinctively points to Satan, the beast et al suffering such a fate

By this you want to imply that only Satan and his demons will suffer the fate of being tormented "day and night for ever and ever."

That is wrong. Its the same fate for everyone who goes to the lake of fire -humans and demons alike.

Rev 14v9-11 -And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, IF ANY MAN worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation, AND HE SHALL BE TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

And the smoke of their TORMENT ASCENDETH UP FOR EVER AND EVER: and THEY HAVE NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Please this is clear, that its NOT only Satan and his demons that will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The same fate of torment for ever and ever and no rest day nor night awaits both human and demons -everyone who ends up in the lake of fire.

@ ayoku777


yes, u got the post i was referring to
and no, i am not implying/ concluding anything. just suggesting that there could be a different interpretation as valid or more valid as the traditional one,and seeking to explore it.
back to the topic...

this is another great scripture that point to the traditional doctrine of hell
however, it seems to mention a distinct category of people -the beast fellowship as suffering same fate as the beast

it even goes further:
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation,

^^ this verse seems to suggest that that there is a cup of indignation which can be mixed, ..perhaps diluted
however the beast fellowship shall drink the concentrated wine of wrath
Consequently, there is room for some argument wriggle here

...happy new year

ayoku777:


Revelation 20v10 -And the devil that deceiveth them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER.

This scripture describes the experience of the lake of fire and of those who end up there. And it in no way supports the view point of the cessation of existence.

The TORMENT of those who go to the lake of fire is DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER.

Someone who ceases to exist CANNOT be tormented for ever and ever. Because he would be no more alive, animate or conscious. He can't see, feel, cry or be in pain or torment anymore if he ceases to exist.

If the lake of fire obliterates its occupants into non-existence, then their torment cannot be "DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER"

Unless for ever and ever has another meaning other than the meaning the scripture gives it -which means something that has no end.

But it doesn't.

Revelation 4v9 -And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to Him that sat on the throne, WHO LIVETH FOR EVER AND EVER.

Can you see that?

The same "for ever and ever" that the scripture uses to quality the longevity of the existence of God, is the same "for ever and ever" the scripture uses to qualify the longevity of the torment of those who go to the lake of fire.

The scripture was talking about the devil and never said what humans will experience.

lastmessenger:

The scripture was talking about the devil and never said what humans will experience.

You want to imply that only Satan and his demons will suffer the fate of being tormented "day and night for ever and ever."

That is wrong. Its the same fate for everyone who goes to the lake of fire -humans and demons alike.

Rev 14v9-11 -And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, IF ANY MAN worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation, AND HE SHALL BE TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

And the smoke of their TORMENT ASCENDETH UP FOR EVER AND EVER: and THEY HAVE NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Please this is clear, that its NOT only Satan and his demons that will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The same fate of torment for ever and ever and no rest day nor night awaits both human and demons -everyone who ends up in the lake of fire.

ayoku777:


You want to imply that only Satan and his demons will suffer the fate of being tormented "day and night for ever and ever."

That is wrong. Its the same fate for everyone who goes to the lake of fire -humans and demons alike.

Rev 14v9-11 -And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, IF ANY MAN worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation, AND HE SHALL BE TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

And the smoke of their TORMENT ASCENDETH UP FOR EVER AND EVER: and THEY HAVE NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Please this is clear, that its NOT only Satan and his demons that will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The same fate of torment for ever and ever and no rest day nor night awaits both human and demons -everyone who ends up in the lake of fire.

This is the closest statement suggesting eternal torment but I am very sure the whole things ends in death. That is why the same revelation talked about second death.

esere826:
@ ayoku777


yes, u got the post i was referring to
and no, i am not implying/ concluding anything. just suggesting that there could be a different interpretation as valid or more valid as the traditional one,and seeking to explore it.
back to the topic...

this is another great scripture that point to the traditional doctrine of hell
however, it seems to mention a distinct category of people -the beast fellowship as suffering same fate as the beast

it even goes further:
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation,

^^ this verse seems to suggest that that there is a cup of indignation which can be mixed, ..perhaps diluted
however the beast fellowship shall drink the concentrated wine of wrath
Consequently, there is room for some argument wriggle here

...happy new year

First the argument was that "everlasting fire" doesn't mean anyone will burn there forever.

Then it became 'only Satan and the beast will be tormented forever' not humans.

Now, it is Satan, the beast and "the beast fellowship".

How many different categories of people, with separate hell fire fate and experience do we have now?

Do you just make up stuff as you go? Don't do that, don't make up doctrine as you go. It will not lead you to the truth.

There is nowhere in scripture that the cessation of existence in the lake of fire is implied or portrayed.

lastmessenger:

This is the closest statement suggesting eternal torment but I am very sure the whole things ends in death. That is why the same revelation talked about second death.

You're very sure?

The lake of fire is the second death. And satan, demons and humans will burn there for ever.

So it means the second death is not the cessation of existence but the torment of eternal separation from God.

Do you think death only always imply end of existence? If someone is spiritually dead, does it mean their human spirit ceases to exist?

Hmmm.

ayoku777:


First the argument was that "everlasting fire" doesn't mean anyone will burn there forever.

Then it became 'only Satan and the beast will be tormented forever' not humans.

Now, it is Satan, the beast and "the beast fellowship".

How many different categories of people, with separate hell fire fate and experience do we have now?

Do you just make up stuff as you go? Don't do that, don't make up doctrine as you go. It will not lead you to the truth.

There is nowhere in scripture that the cessation of existence in the lake of fire is implied or portrayed.

And that passage said

Revelation is " presented in signs" rev 1:1

Sign means symbols ..... Lake of fire is a symbol for " Second Death" rev 21:8

Death and grave were hurled into this lake of fire ..... The bible is not a senseless book , it doesnt make sense for grave to be tortured, death itself was personified, its not a person!!

SYMBOL EXPLAINED: " Death will be no more" Rev 21:4 !

CAPTIVATOR:

Revelation is " presented in signs" rev 1:1

Sign means symbols ..... Lake of fire is a symbol for " Second Death" rev 21:8

Death and grave were hurled into this lake of fire ..... The bible is not a senseless book , it doesnt make sense for grave to be tortured, death itself was personified, its not a person!!

SYMBOL EXPLAINED: " Death will be no more" Rev 21:4 !

This is where people always pitch their nest when they find a scripture they can't explain in simple terms. "Revelation is a symbolic book, it is a mystery, it doesn't mean exactly what it said," etc

So, to have no rest day nor night doesn't mean exactly that? To be tormented for ever and ever doesn't mean exactly that?

Maybe that we will reign with Christ doesn't mean exactly that too. Or that God liveth for ever and ever doesn't mean exactly that as well.

Since revelation is all signs and symbols, no literals.

frosbel:


If believers who died before the NT went to be in Abraham's bosom, where did people who died before Abraham go to when they died, i.e from Adam ?

Thanks.

My brother, Abraham's bosom does not literally mean his chest neither is it an institution freshly established for Abraham.

Abraham's bosom is a place of honour and essential relation with God. Similar to saying Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God- it isn't as if they literally have a chair and table where jesus is positioned on the right And the devil on the left.

I think the bible affirm beyond every doubt that there is everlasting tortuture for the wicked. The bible gives an unequivocal closure to issues like Death hell and eternity.

The question is if we believe the bible or not?

Frosbel has made his position clear but he needs more people to disbelieve scripture just like he does... In the face of such clear, undeniable evidence about hell from the pages of Scripture, it seems absurd that anyone would challenge the existence, nature, or eternality of hell. We should not be surprised because the devil, through the natural mind of men will not stop in making heaven less appealing,and hell less horrific.

ayoku777:


You're very sure?

The lake of fire is the second death. And satan, demons and humans will burn there for ever.

So it means the second death is not the cessation of existence but the torment of eternal separation from God.

Do you think death only always imply end of existence? If someone is spiritually dead, does it mean their human spirit ceases to exist?

Hmmm.

Don't worry I will engage you later and I will explain to you why I believe what I believe.

I weep at your illogic

esere826:


I think i just accused him of being Hitler.

You happy now?

Ayoku777,
you are wise

ayoku777:


This is where people always pitch their nest when they find a scripture they can't explain in simple terms. "Revelation is a symbolic book, it is a mystery, it doesn't mean exactly what it said," etc

So, to have no rest day nor night doesn't mean exactly that? To be tormented for ever and ever doesn't mean exactly that?

Maybe that we will reign with Christ doesn't mean exactly that too. Or that God liveth for ever and ever doesn't mean exactly that as well.

Since revelation is all signs and symbols, no literals.

ayoku777:


You're very sure?

The lake of fire is the second death. And satan, demons and humans will burn there for ever.

So it means the second death is not the cessation of existence but the torment of eternal separation from God.

Do you think death only always imply end of existence? If someone is spiritually dead, does it mean their human spirit ceases to exist?

Hmmm.

Don't worry I will show you later with scriptures why I believe what I believe

ayoku777:

"Revelation is a symbolic book, it is a mystery, it doesn't mean exactly what it said," etc

Signs
Lamb of God is not a literal lamb but refers to Jesus !

Seven stars means seven angels ( Rev 1:20)
Seven Lampstand Means Seven congregations
Lake of fire means second death ( Rev 21:4, 21: !!
Lake of fire is a symbol ! Further bible proof

1) Devil a spirit creature is thrown into it, spirit creatures cant be harmed by fire - exodus 3:2, judges 13:20 !!!

2) death, which means a state of dyin ... An unconscious state ( Ecc 9:10) is thrown into it ! Death cant be tortured. Rev 20:14,21:8

3) "wild beast" and "false prophet" which are symbols were thrown into it, isnt it reasonable dat the lake of fire itself is a symbol?
--------------
CONSIDER THIS:
Devil must live forever to be tortured forever, WHEREAS everlastin life is a gift (rom6:23) !! Haba

2) scripture foretold dat both death and the devil will be brought to Non existent,( Heb 2:14, 1cor 15:26)

ayoku777:

First the argument was that "everlasting fire" doesn't mean anyone will burn there forever.
Then it became 'only Satan and the beast will be tormented forever' not humans.
Now, it is Satan, the beast and "the beast fellowship".
How many different categories of people, with separate hell fire fate and experience do we have now?
Do you just make up stuff as you go? Don't do that, don't make up doctrine as you go. It will not lead you to the truth.
There is nowhere in scripture that the cessation of existence in the lake of fire is implied or portrayed.

now calm down
i spend my time exchanging with you because you have some semblance of logical reasoning

I am Esere826 and not Frosbel or Lastmessanger
as i stated earlier we dont all share same and exact point of view though we might be closer in our views
its like RCCG and Winners being similar but yet distinct
I have stated my views on Hell severally here

In a manner of speaking,
its good exercise if your brain can differentiate between a crying woman and that of her crying baby
you just cant say to the woman: "you disturb me by crying from morning to night"
true you are being disturbed all day, false that she does all the crying

yes, you're seeing/tackling multiple anti-hell arguments
No, they're not flowing from a single doctrine/approach/person

now if you are not capable of distinguishing this simple matter
how do i trust that you are able to discern something as spiritually complex as Revelation