*sighs*

I want to know who told you it is 'Ndi Okpoliba' because I know that is not what it is called. It is simply called Okpoliba. Maybe you were speaking with someone and he said 'Ndi Okpoliba', leading you to assume that is what the village is called. Someone could say Ndi Sokoto or Ndi Calabar...And that wouldn't mean those are the actual names of those places. Anyway, Okpoliba is not relevant here, as our bone of contention is Olumbanasaa.

Concerning Igbokenyi. (This Igbokenyi you won't let go of.) The village speaks Igala as a first language, and I have demonstrated the possibility that the name of the town could derive from the language that the people speak primarily (which is Igala). What, if not high subjectivity, makes you think that an etymology based on a second language that not everybody there even speaks fluently, is more plausible than an Igala one?

Do this quick objectivity test:

a. If you encounter a first-language Igala-speaking village with Igbo influence, and you are presented with two reasonable meanings for its vilage's name- one Igbo and the other Igala, which meaning will you consider more plausible?

b. If you encounter a first-langauge Igbo-speaking village somewhere in Aniocha/Oshimili with Bini influence, and you are presented with two reasonable meanings for its village's name - one Igbo and the other Bini, which meaning will you consider more plausible?


Is your answer for both scenarios Igbo?

And oh, to clarify my 'core Igbo' reference. It may not have been a very apt phrase, but as I couldn't think of an apt one, I used it to refer to people located within the ethnographic lines of what we would call Igboland who are actually ethno-linguistically Igbo, as against enclaves within the same ethnographic lines who are non-Igbo (eg. Igalas in Anambra, Mtezi in Ebonyi,).

And I don't remember even using the term 'bia-speakers'. Some Igbo-speaking groups don't say 'bia'.

I would not refer to any Igbo group as 'core' Igbo or more Igbo than the other for it would be great folly to do that given my deep knowledge of Igbo history and culture. For one who takes pride in his seeming knowledge of anything Igbo, referring to some Igbo groups as 'core' Igbo and some groups as 'less core' Igbo is the last thing that should be expected of me.

*amused*
Your posed questions are not always the case. It is not solid reason enough to reach a haste conclusion. One should not be in that haste to assume at first thinking just because you are wont to. Just like I mentioned earlier, town names change according to linguistic migration dominant at that time but that does not mean that they own the land or are the aboriginals, e.g. modern Egyptians and currently arabinized Egyptian place names, Australia or America. Personally, I wish I were currently in Nigeria for the purpose of going to these villages myself to conduct thorough research.

In this age of globalization and technological innovations, some communities still exist as in the Stone Age era where all the modern amenities of life are absent and citizens rely on nature and human natural instincts to survive.
Nzam Community, the headquarters of Anambra West Local Government, Anambra State fits into the above description. A recent trip to the community by the reporter confirms the lyrics of the song by Afro beat legend, Fela Anikulapo Kuti that some people are “suffering and smiling.” A land so blessed with rich agricultural produce but yet wallows under the throes of underdevelopment and government neglect.
In Nzam, most children have never seen electric light since they were born, while access to clean water, hospitals or accessible roads is like a luxury often dreamt of by the people but yet to feel it.
A turbulent two and half hours sail through the River Niger by boat from the Niger Bridge Head brought the reporter to the precincts of the community. On berthing and anchoring at the bank of the river, one is confronted with weary villagers loading and offloading agricultural products behind mud houses and thatched roofs.
A narrow swampy road from the river bank leads to the community accessed by trekking or boarding of commercial cycle a major preoccupation of the youths in the area who have lost interest in farming.
Though there were few electric poles fixed on the narrow road which connects the local police post and an empty Health Post, the first response one gets on asking where to charge one’s phone battery through the public power source is a jolt on the real situation.
“My brother, maybe you are in a dream land,” the Okada rider said. “Ever since I grew to maturity, I’ve never seen electric light from NEPA here. These electric poles you see now are just fancy decorations on the road because that is where it ends. We have no light and our people only travel to Onitsha by boat to get the diesel, which we use to power our rice milling plants. There is no telephone network too as you may have noticed that your phone has lost service as you alighted from the boat. We are like people living in another planet and what they do is to visit us with empty promises whenever election time is approaching. That is all we see or get from them,” he lamented.
At the market square, though it was a work day and schools were in session, many children were seen playing by the heap of sand beside the community rice grinding mill. Farmers coming back from their rice farm all conveyed the yet-to-be-parboiled rice on bicycles. The local government secretariat, which was accessed by the reporter on a motorcycle through another narrow path with streams and locally made bridges, was like a ghost place.
The sign post bearing the inscription “Anambra West Local Government Headquarters, Nzam” was swallowed by grasses that it becomes difficult to view the signpost from afar. The secretariat, though deserted had some nice buildings. The old secretariat complex commissioned on 18th February 1999 was built by the military administration of Uwakwe Ukaegbu in Anambra. On enquiry about the state of affairs in the local council, a staffer who pleaded anonymity alleged that the members of the transition council of the local government reside in Onitsha and only visit once in month when their entitlements is released by the state government. He said they immediately return to Onitsha in their speedboat after sharing the booty for the month.

‘Our local government is the worst in Anambra’
An executive member of the town union, Kenneth Nwabunwanne in a chat with Sunday Sun described their local government area as the worst in Anambra State.
“During the flood crisis in 2012, our community was ravaged beyond proportion and we are yet to recover from the immense destruction. But before the flood disaster, we were living as the dregs of the society here. We have a health center but nothing is inside so it is more like a monument. When people fall sick, we are at the mercy of patent medicine shops while there is no hospital or qualified doctors to handle emergencies. We have no road and because of that, we are cut off from the rest of Anambra communities. There is no trade connection between us and others because of lack of access roads while those who can access this place through the river are very much limited. Our needs are numerous that we don’t know where to begin itemizing them but all I can say is that this place is the worst local government in Anambra State.”
Elizabeth Maduneme, a mother of five voiced the pains of mothers in the community thus: “Just last week, we lost a woman during childbirth, infant and child mortality is very high here because of absence of medical facilities. The woman had complications after delivery at home and before we could make arrangements to convey her to Onitsha, she died. We don’t have roads, water and light. All of us are basically farmers here and we cultivate yam, rice and cassava in large quantities but we don’t get encouragement from any quarter. During the rainy season it is bye – bye to Onitsha unless you can use boats but if not, we are cut off completely,” she lamented.
A community and its unique culture
Nzam community is the Ijam and Igala speaking part of Anambra State. It is made up of seven villages, comprising of Etakolo, Odobo, Udda, Urubi, Enekpa , Ndiokpoliba and Echa.
Despite suffering from government neglect, the people are a happy people steeped in various cultural and traditional festivities and are happy for that. An elder in the community, Chife Amekwe told Sunday Sun the historical origin of the community and its cultural activities.
“The natives of Nzam were the descendants of General Ajida, a notable warrior of Idah origin in Kogi State. Ajida is the father of Field Marshal Ogbe who was married to Iyida Ogbe and Iyida had five children-Nzam, Anam, Anaku , Oloshi and Okpanam. Ogbe and his family lived around Ankpa in Igala Kingdom. When the Apa and Jukun warriors invaded the Igala communities, Field Marshal Ogbe along with many others retreated with their families through the present Ibaji jungle moving Southwards along the course of the River Niger. As they journeyed through their way, various children of Ogbe for one reason or the other settled themselves at their present locations. This movement from the Igala Kingdom explains the fact that there are Odobo , Enekpa, Igah , Iyano towns in both Ibaji local government area of Kogi State and also in Nzam town in Anambra West Local Governent Area of Anambra State.
“Between January and June, we have festivals like Ugwolegwu, Edo onu Ananwulu and Enachune. In the month of January we call on the earth goddess to bless the children and bless our crops. The Ugwolegwu festival has to do with masquerades. It is more of masquerade feasts celebrated with different soups and rich fish sauces.
Enachune is the Iwa ji yam festival. We do it religiously because without that, the yam will purge us if we don’t mark the festival. The new yam festival proper takes place in August and we call it Uchuero. By December, we mark the Eka ceremony which is more of thanksgiving to God for life and bountiful harvest,” he said.

‘Only Peter Obi administration remembered us but we want more’
While the people of Nzam regret the seeming underdevelopment and deprivation of the area, many of the residents who spoke to Sunday Sun said that the entire local government area was like a totally forgotten enclave before the Peter Obi administration. A list of projects done by the Obi administration for the local council obtained at the local government secretariat by the reporter included “Umueze Mmiata Anam road under construction, Iyiora Anam health center, new bridges at Utolu, Oroma etiti Anam and egonwa bridge at Nzam, solar powered borehole at the local government secretariat, Nzam and completed Magistrate Court at Umueze Anam among others.
Jonathan Nwafee in a reflection on the development regretted that most of the projects executed by the Obi administration in Anambra West were sited outside Nzam, away from the local government headquarters. He lauded Obi for the developmental strides but expressed optimism that with the conclusion of the governorship and council polls in the state, the governor-elect, Chief Willie Obiano and the new Local Government Chairman in the area, Mr. Simon Mbanefo Okafor would give the area a new sense of belonging in Anambra State.
FROM ALOYSIUS ATTAH, ONITSHA

bigfrancis21:
I would not refer to any Igbo group as 'core' Igbo or more Igbo than the other for it would be great folly to do that given my deep knowledge of Igbo history and culture. For one who takes pride in his seeming knowledge of anything Igbo, referring to some Igbo groups as 'core' Igbo and some groups as 'less core' Igbo is the last thing that should be expected of me.

Um... I still don't think you understand what I meant when I said 'core Igbo' (even after my explanation), but no problem.

interesting

bigfrancis21:
*amused*
Your posed questions are not always the case. It is not solid reason enough to reach a haste conclusion. One should not be in that haste to assume at first thinking just because you are won't to. Just like I mentioned earlier, town names change according to linguistic migration dominant at that time but that does not mean that they own the land or are the aboriginals, e.g. modern Egyptians and currently arabinized Egyptian place names, Australia or America. Personally, I wish I were currently in Nigeria for the purpose of going to these villages myself to conduct thorough research.

You see, you should take your own advice depicted in the bolded, because that is what I have been saying since. And I don't know why it is hard for you to understand. Throughout this thread, you have been the one inclined to thinking that Igbo aborigines were in Olumbanasaa first. I've been the one saying that since we (meaning you and I) do not currently possess knowledge of any oral history that points to Igbos being there first, we should refrain from speculating about Igbo aborigines. Those communities are as far as we know Igala from their beginnings, until we encounter authenticated traditions that the Igala met Igbos there, then we can modify our stance. Simple.

I love your courage big Francis. some things are better understood through argument than mere imaginations. Applying simple logic, people can only loose their languages to the languages of greater population.

bigfrancis21:
https://greatriversofhope./tag/onitsha/

You keep bringing up Nzam. Over and over and over again. Even though I was the first person to bring the OP's attention to traditions that claim Igbo aborigines were met in Nzam when the Igalas got there. Even though I was the first person to tell the OP that it appears Igbo is a first language in Nzam.

Can you forget Nzam, and face Olumbanasaa (ie, Odekpe, Onugwa, Igbedor, Alla, Odeh, Odomagwu, Igbokenyi)? These seven communities, described, in the Onicha dictionary you got the definition of Olu from, as "group of seven villages in Anambra Division which speak Igala as their first language" are what I've been talking about since. But it seems you are all about Nzam, a town which me and McSterling already agree to be a somewhat different scenario.

I'm getting the feeling that we may be having two different discussions here.

Radoillo:


You keep bringing up Nzam. Over and over and over again. Even though I was the first person to bring the OP's attention to traditions that claim Igbo aborigines were met in Nzam when the Igalas got there. Even though I was the first person to tell the OP that it appears Igbo is a first language in Nzam.

Can you forget Nzam, and face Olumbanasaa (ie, Odekpe, Onugwa, Igbedor, Alla, Odeh, Odomagwu, Igbokenyi)? These seven communities, described, in the Onicha dictionary you got the definition of Olu from, as "group of seven villages in Anambra Division which speak Igala as their first language" are what I've been talking about since. But it seems you are all about Nzam, a town which me and McSterling already agree to be a somewhat different scenario.

I'm getting the feeling that we may be having two different discussions here.

The article I provided was only a rebuttal to your claim that the village of Okpoliba is not referred to as Ndiokpoliba, a village name which the article I provided supports. If you noticed, you'll see the part of the article I highlighted in bold as my stress point of the entire article.

bigfrancis21:


In all honesty, I do not think that your ancestry is far-to-fetch and worth all the unnecessary identity crisis. I would not stress my ancestry that much when it is simple and clear - that I am a descendant of Ajida, an Igala warrior man who migrated into Anambra from Idah, Kogi state. You had no need for your identity crisis in the first place when your ancestry is this simple and easy - you are simply from Idah born and resident in Anambra state. For your relatives and those who embrace their Igala ancestry, they should mention that they are from Idah when asked where in Kogi they are from. Feel free to extend this courtesy to your mom in case she isn't sure yet where in Kogi she is from. Those who embrace their Igbo origins, bear Igbo names and speak Igbo language are welcome into the greater Igbo fold of Anambra state.

It's actually more complex than that. Many of those who bear Igbo names and speak Igbo, do not acknowledge "Igbo origins". In the article you posted, didn't the Igbo-named Nzam chief trace their origins to Ajida too? You seem intent at subsuming the Igala people among you into the greater fold of Igbos. And you seem to have assumed that affirmation of our Igala ethnicity equates to not wanting to be from Anambra or wanting to form allegiance with kogi. So, to you, those of us who affirm our Igala ethnicity (many of whom bear Igbo names and speak Igbo) are not welcome in Anambra state? So it is a crime to affirm my ethnicity while yet acknowledging our presence as a minority in the state? We are no less indigenes of Anambra state than the Igbos in the state.

McSterling:

It's actually more complex than that.

What is complex about it? If Ajida had not migrated from Idah would you have been in Anambra today wondering about your identity or where you come from? Tell me what is complex about the simple fact that you originated from Idah in Kogi state? Except you want to tell me now that your blood line has been diluted by Igbo blood that your make up is more of Igbo now than it is Igala. You need not look further than this.

Radoillo:


You see, you should take your own advice depicted in the bolded, because that is what I have been saying since. And I don't know why it is hard for you to understand. Throughout this thread, you have been the one inclined to thinking that Igbo aborigines were in Olumbanasaa first. I've been the one saying that since we (meaning you and I) do not currently possess knowledge of any oral history that points to Igbos being there first, we should refrain from speculating about Igbo aborigines. Those communities are as far as we know Igala from their beginnings, until we encounter authenticated traditions that the Igala met Igbos there, then we can modify our stance. Simple.

I did provide oral traditions that say that the farmlands the Igala migrants farm on were given to the migrants to settle on and farm when they crossed over into the Anambra area which came up during the Anambra-Kogi oil well tussle to serve as a reminder that the Igala settlers are only reminders. In case you missed my post on that, re-read it again.

bigfrancis21:


What is complex about it? If Ajida had not migrated from Idah would you have been in Anambra today wondering about your identity or where you come from? Tell me what is complex about the simple fact that you originated from Idah in Kogi state? Except you want to tell me now that your blood line has been diluted by Igbo blood that your make up is more of Igbo now than it is Igala. You need not look further than this.

So it's high time we got kicked back to Idah, right?

bigfrancis21:


I did provide oral traditions that say that the farmlands the Igala migrants farm on were given to the migrants to settle on and farm when they crossed over into the Anambra area which came up during the Anambra-Kogi oil well tussle to serve as a reminder that the Igala settlers are only reminders. In case you missed my post on that, re-read it again.

I did read what you said about that. You see, what you didn't know was which Igala communities were involved in that tussle. You made the assumption that it was Olumbanasaa. It wasn't. That tussle was with the Igala in Kogi - on the border with Aguleri. You don't seem to realise how complex the geography of the area is, and thus you tend to think that every reference to Igala in a Kogi-Anambra border context must refer to Olumbanasaa.

I decided not to get into that because I feared it would lead to another complicated web of back-and-forth, and I needed to sleep.

You do know that the oil well tussle involved the Aguleri village called Aguleri-Otu and the Ibaji-Kogi village called Odeke, right? Nothing ties Olumbanasa to that tussle...and whatever traditions of who owns which land that came up in that tussle involves only Ibaji and Aguleri and has nothing to do with Olumbanasa which is not even in the same LGA with Aguleri.

I have already stated on this thread that according to Aguleri traditions, the founder of Odeke in Ibaji-Kogi was a son of Eri. (Whether Odeke actually has the same traditions is another matter.) I won't be surprised if they tried to use that in a land tussle with Odeke.

Point is: you haven't posted any traditions that say Igala migrants to Odekpe, Onugwa, Igbedor and the other Olumbanasaa were given land by Igbo people. No, you haven't.

bigfrancis21:


The article I provided was only a rebuttal to your claim that the village of Okpoliba is not referred to as Ndiokpoliba, a village name which the article I provided supports. If you noticed, you'll see the part of the article I highlighted in bold as my stress point of the entire article.

Well, I've always known it as Okpoliba. And in discussions with people, that is how they refer to it. (In written sources, the more common form is 'Okpeluba').

But if there are people out there calling it Ndiokpoliba, good. It doesn't affect the general trend of this discussion, as I've been stressing Nzam's strong (possibly aboriginal) Igbo element from the get-go.

McSterling:
So it's high time we got kicked back to Idah, right?

What of kogi ceding the ibaji area to us..since their people are already igbonized

McSterling:
So it's high time we got kicked back to Idah, right?

If you care that much about your Igala ancestry, yes simply return to Idah whence you came. Those that wish to be Igbo can remain behind and assimilate into the greater Igbo fold. It is no complex than that. I don't understand the sudden craze of some people to identify with Anambra state.

Radoillo:


Well, I've always known it as Okpoliba. And in discussions with people, that is how they refer to it. (In written sources, the more common form is 'Okpeluba').

But if there are people out there calling it Ndiokpoliba, good. It doesn't affect the general trend of this discussion, as I've been stressing Nzam's strong (possibly aboriginal) Igbo element from the get-go.

At least you now know that it is also referred to as 'Ndi Okpoliba'. That was just the purpose of the article I posted.

Radoillo:


I did read what you said about that. You see, what you didn't know was which Igala communities were involved in that tussle. You made the assumption that it was Olumbanasaa. It wasn't. That tussle was with the Igala in Kogi - on the border with Aguleri. You don't seem to realise how complex the geography of the area is, and thus you tend to think that every reference to Igala in a Kogi-Anambra border context must refer to Olumbanasaa.

I decided not to get into that because I feared it would lead to another complicated web of back-and-forth, and I needed to sleep.

You do know that the oil well tussle involved the Aguleri village called Aguleri-Otu and the Ibaji-Kogi village called Odeke, right? Nothing ties Olumbanasa to that tussle...and whatever traditions of who owns which land that came up in that tussle involves only Ibaji and Aguleri and has nothing to do with Olumbanasa which is not even in the same LGA with Aguleri.

I have already stated on this thread that according to Aguleri traditions, the founder of Odeke in Ibaji-Kogi was a son of Eri. (Whether Odeke actually has the same traditions is another matter.) I won't be surprised if they tried to use that in a land tussle with Odeke.

Point is: you haven't posted any traditions that say Igala migrants to Odekpe, Onugwa, Igbedor and the other Olumbanasaa were given land by Igbo people. No, you haven't.

Well, you can't prove neither that the Igalas in those areas are the aboriginals when oral traditions are clear that Gen. Ajida of Idah crossed over from Idah into the Anambra region, and probably his descendants spread out to live amongst Igbos in other areas. It would be folly to assume they are the aboriginals just because the town names sound 'igala'. Looking at Egyptian town names of today which are mostly Arabic, following your pattern of argument, I would argue that the Arabs are the aboriginals or owners of the land when in actuality the ancient Egyptians, and not the Arabs, originally owned their land before the place names were changed. Same applies for America and Australia.

As Pazienza posited before, if there were actually oral traditions of an initial Igbo presence in those villages, would the current Igala settlers readily allude to having the Igbos present there before them?

Or are you quick to forget that there is a reason for referring to the Igala settlers as Olu by the Igbo natives. In Owerri along Douglas road, there is a huge thriving Hausa community since the 1920s named 'ama awusa' by Igbos. The land space was allocated to them for purpose of settlement and trade. They did not arrive to meet that area empty - the land space was allocated to them by Igbos. Hundreds of thousands of Hausas who call Imo state home have lived there for decades, doing their business and have had their kids and grand kids born there as well. Had we not been in this age and time of tribal consciousness and preservation, maybe if the Hausas stood up one day claiming that area to be theirs and maybe given that area an Hausa ('h' is silent in my pronunciation) village name, maybe you would be supporting them today saying that their village is Hausa just because the name is Hausa right?

If Igbos had migrated from Aguleri to somewhere near Idah and established a village for themselves named, say, Umuoma, would the Igalas today not be telling them to return to Aguleri, Anambra state where they came from as the land on which they have established their village is Igala land and not Igbo land? Would people not turn around to label Igbos 'land grabbers' and whatnot? Would you consider that area Igboland even if the Igbo settlers had found that place empty when they arrived there?

cheruv:

What of kogi ceding the ibaji area to us..since their people are already igbonized

Right, since Ibaji has been Igbonized, maybe the Igbonized areas of Ibaji should be allocated to Anambra state where they rightfully belong instead of Kogi.

bigfrancis21:


Right, since Ibaji has been Igbonized, maybe the Igbonized areas of Ibaji should be allocated to Anambra state where they rightfully belong instead of Kogi.

Ya
Anambra state needs to start working to have ibaji LG of kogi ceded to it.the ibaji dialect is seen as Igbo by igalas from idà and the confluence area and also I've read a document by one Omachona Prof like that that detailed the profound influence Igbo had on ibaji dialect of igala.
All the state needs to do is up the propaganda detailing the difference between ibajis and other igalas of kogi and also the similarities between the omaabala and ibaji areas,thus reinforcing the subconscious thoughts of those ibajis that they're Igbo.
Igalas are yoruboids..but its clear Igbo has had the greater influence on it than Yoruba, so its essential with a view of let's say 100-200yrs we hope to see the igala completely igbonized

cheruv:

Ya
Anambra state needs to start working to have ibaji LG of kogi ceded to it.the ibaji dialect is seen as Igbo by igalas from idà and the confluence area and also I've read a document by one Omachona Prof like that that detailed the profound influence Igbo had on ibaji dialect of igala.
All the state needs to do is up the propaganda detailing the difference between ibajis and other igalas of kogi and also the similarities between the omaabala and ibaji areas,thus reinforcing the subconscious thoughts of those ibajis that they're Igbo.
Igalas are yoruboids..but its clear Igbo has had the greater influence on it than Yoruba, so its essential with a view of let's say 100-200yrs we hope to see the igala completely igbonized

Your total disregard for the unique identity of these people is just appalling....

Circles. Circles.

First, where are you getting your Ajida Ogbe stories from. Because you probably need to read it again more carefully.

Ajida Ogbe and his cohorts are only believed to have invaded/settled 5 towns:

1. Nzam (a mixed Igbo-Igala town)
2. Anaku (an Igbo town)
3. Anam (another Igbo town)
4. Okpanam (yet another Igbo town in Delta State)
5. Olosi (a quarter in Onitsha)

I thought we were talking about the Olumbanasaa communities in Anambra West. Do you see any Olumbanasaa community (Odekpe, Igbedor etc) among the five 'children' (using the metaphor of oral tradition) of Ajida? Again, you keep lumping everything together. The Ajida story does not explain the history of the first-language Igala-speaking towns being discussed here...which is why I thought it a bit funny when you told McSterling that Ajida is the reason why he is in Anambra. Unfortunately, he doesn't appear to know much about the traditions of the whole area or he would have been able to counter what you said.

I'm sorry, your Ama Awusa analogy doesn't hold water. All the Ama Awusas in Igboland are not full-fledged towns. They are all quarters of larger host communities. The communities that own the land on which the Ama Awusas are built still know themselves. The Olumbanasaa towns are full-fledged towns. You can end this debate right now if you can identify the Igbo host communities that own the land on which the Olumbanasaa towns were built. Such things are not easily forgotten.

This whole debate is funny and shortsighted, to be honest. You are looking at the whole thing from an Anambra-Kogi point of view. That point of view consciously or unconsciously suggests to you that Anambra is an Igbo State, and any Non-Igbo communities found within its administrative lines must have obtained land from the Igbo, or should be assumed to have obtained land from the Igbo.

That really makes no sense. Igala and Igbos didn't know which was Anambra and which was Kogi, or which was Eastern Region or Middle Belt until the administrative lines began to be drawn and people began to be separated by those lines.

Assume for one second that when Administrative lines were drawn Anambra West ended up in Kogi. This means Olumbanasa would have been in Kogi....along with Igbo towns like Anam which make up Anambra West. Bear in mind that Anam communities claim their ancestors came from Nteje, and Dr Ikebudu, an Anam man who wrote about his people said they left Nteje around 1672.

Now imagine Anam, Olumbanasaa and the rest of Anambra West in Kogi State. What then if the Igala Kogi people started telling Anam people that Igala aborigines were in Anam first, and that if the Igbos don't like it, they should pack and go back to Nteje from where they came as recently as 1672 (according to Ikebudu).

I bet you if that were to happen, you'd be here telling Igala people to produce evidence that they were in Anam first! See what I mean by subjectivity? Would you be willing to speculate that Anam had Igala aborigines if administrative lines were drawn to include Anam in Kogi? Would you be telling them to assimilate or pack and leave the land that has been theirs for centuries and come back to Nteje?

Why are you people talking about ceding territories. The OP opened this thread to say his people should identify as Igala and as Anambrarians. He said nothing about ceding Olumbanasaa and the other Igala speaking communities in Anambra to Kogi. All of a sudden you are talking about ceding Ibaji (who don't even identify as Igbo, nor speak Igbo as a first language, nor wish to be ceded to Anambra)? Nawa o.

I think this is probably where I should quit, mehn. This is tiring and also frustrating. You can have the last word though. Peace.

scholes0:


Your total disregard for the unique identity of these people is just appalling....

How

cheruv:

How

Why do you want their culture and people to be "Igbonized" ?
Isn't it enough that they are who they are?

scholes0:


Why do you want their culture and people to be "Igbonized" ?
Isn't it enough that they are who they are?

We're simply accommodating them within the umbrella that's Igbo.. Its something they accept subconsciously, the Igbo realm has never coerced anyone to be part of it.their Ata would still be there as the grand Duke of igala.
Life is dynamic.. so its not enough that they stay who they're without changing along with life

cheruv:

We're simply accommodating them within the umbrella that's Igbo.. Its something they accept subconsciously, the Igbo realm has never coerced anyone to be part of it.their Ata would still be there as the grand Duke of igala.
Life is dynamic.. so its not enough that they stay who they're without changing along with life

Igalas are about 2.1 Million people, mostly concentrated in Kogi's eastern half.
The areas of Igboland they share borders with are not exactly the densest populated.
They are probably about 65% Muslim and 35% Christian...
They have a strong political and cultural identity as the Kingmakers of Kogi state.

How do you end up "Igbonizing" such a people?

scholes0:


Igalas are about 2.1 Million people, mostly concentrated in Kogi's eastern half.
The areas of Igboland they share borders with are not exactly the densest populated.
They are probably about 65% Muslim and 35% Christian...
They have a strong political and cultural identity as the Kingmakers of Kogi state.

How do you end up "Igbonizing" such a people?

He is referring to the Ibaji people of Kogi state, who share borders with Anambra north that has been heavily Igbonized, probably due to inter-marriage between Igbo folks and their folks decades over decades. Mainstream Igala people do not even regard Ibaji as Igala. The capital of Ibaji is Onyedega, an Igbo sounding name.

However, Igala language is a dynamic one, with variation as you move from south northwards with the Igala at the extreme south being influenced heavily by Igbo language and as you move north-western it being influenced by Yoruba words from Yoruba states that the language area shares borders with.

Radoillo:
Circles. Circles.

First, where are you getting your Ajida Ogbe stories from. Because you probably need to read it again more carefully.

Ajida Ogbe and his cohorts are only believed to have invaded/settled 5 towns:

1. Nzam (a mixed Igbo-Igala town)
2. Anaku (an Igbo town)
3. Anam (another Igbo town)
4. Okpanam (yet another Igbo town in Delta State)
5. Olosi (a quarter in Onitsha)

I thought we were talking about the Olumbanasaa communities in Anambra West. Do you see any Olumbanasaa community (Odekpe, Igbedor etc) among the five 'children' (using the metaphor of oral tradition) of Ajida? Again, you keep lumping everything together. The Ajida story does not explain the history of the first-language Igala-speaking towns being discussed here...which is why I thought it a bit funny when you told McSterling that Ajida is the reason why he is in Anambra. Unfortunately, he doesn't appear to know much about the traditions of the whole area or he would have been able to counter what you said.

I'm sorry, your Ama Awusa analogy doesn't hold water. All the Ama Awusas in Igboland are not full-fledged towns. They are all quarters of larger host communities. The communities that own the land on which the Ama Awusas are built still know themselves. The Olumbanasaa towns are full-fledged towns. You can end this debate right now if you can identify the Igbo host communities that own the land on which the Olumbanasaa towns were built. Such things are not easily forgotten.

This whole debate is funny and shortsighted, to be honest. You are looking at the whole thing from an Anambra-Kogi point of view. That point of view consciously or unconsciously suggests to you that Anambra is an Igbo State, and any Non-Igbo communities found within its administrative lines must have obtained land from the Igbo, or should be assumed to have obtained land from the Igbo.

That really makes no sense. Igala and Igbos didn't know which was Anambra and which was Kogi, or which was Eastern Region or Middle Belt until the administrative lines began to be drawn and people began to be separated by those lines.

Assume for one second that when Administrative lines were drawn Anambra West ended up in Kogi. This means Olumbanasa would have been in Kogi....along with Igbo towns like Anam which make up Anambra West. Bear in mind that Anam communities claim their ancestors came from Nteje, and Dr Ikebudu, an Anam man who wrote about his people said they left Nteje around 1672.

Now imagine Anam, Olumbanasaa and the rest of Anambra West in Kogi State. What then if the Igala Kogi people started telling Anam people that Igala aborigines were in Anam first, and that if the Igbos don't like it, they should pack and go back to Nteje from where they came as recently as 1672 (according to Ikebudu).

I bet you if that were to happen, you'd be here telling Igala people to produce evidence that they were in Anam first! See what I mean by subjectivity? Would you be willing to speculate that Anam had Igala aborigines if administrative lines were drawn to include Anam in Kogi? Would you be telling them to assimilate or pack and leave the land that has been theirs for centuries and come back to Nteje?

Why are you people talking about ceding territories. The OP opened this thread to say his people should identify as Igala and as Anambrarians. He said nothing about ceding Olumbanasaa and the other Igala speaking communities in Anambra to Kogi. All of a sudden you are talking about ceding Ibaji (who don't even identify as Igbo, nor speak Igbo as a first language, nor wish to be ceded to Anambra)? Nawa o.

I think this is probably where I should quit, mehn. This is tiring and also frustrating. You can have the last word though. Peace.

@Bold....Radoillo nwa awka...this has been your aim all along, sustaining the debate just to have the last word.

In all honesty, it is apparent the volume of energy and dedication you've put in since the past few days debating with a fellow Igbo, which you probably wouldn't put half of the same energy into had it been coming from a non-Igbo. You are always in that position to accept whatever they say without putting up any serious challenge, even when the debate is intellectual. It has never been an issue of not wanting to debate trolls, even in intellectual debates from non-Igbos, you would rather take the back seat and let it slide. That's Radoillo.

What you have written up there are ideologies held on by you for the sake of defending your line of argument. However, I still want to believe that the Olumbanasaa communities were lands allocated to the migrant Igala settlers to farm on and over the years they have been there long enough to call those areas in Anambra home. These settlers may have simply been great-grand descendants of Ajida's progeny. Oral history does not always tell it all or the full story. So many things have happened in the past which have gotten lost in the annals of history, even the original agreement that led to the settling of Igala migrants in those 7 communities. The Hausas may not have been able to give their current area in Owerri an Hausa name, only because their migration occurred only as recently as in the 1920s when tribal and ethnic consciousness had been imbibed in the minds of people. Nnamdi Azikiwe father was already living in the North as at early as 1904 when Nnamdi Azikiwe was born and they knew they were Igbos and not Hausa (ethnic consciousness already in place). Had the same migration occurred in the 15th, 16th or 17th century when migrants are often welcome, allocated land spaces and allowed to settle and multiply within their host communities, ama awusa would probably be made of several villages with unique Hausa names that would contain as many as their descendants are.

Don't just look at the entire history as simple as a, b, c, d. Quite a lot must have happened in the past to account for Igalanized people in Anambra state and Igbonized people in Ibaji, Kogi state. It is never just a simple case of 'Oh ok. Igalas migrated into Olumbanasaa areas, met the place empty and settled down there. I am just going to stick with this theory because it sounds right to me no matter what.'

Those who want to bear Igbo names, speak Igbo and identify with the greater Igbo fold of Anambra state are welcome. Those who are insistent on holding onto their Igala ancestry can simply migrate (exodus) back to Idah or wherever it is in Kogi that they came from. I am sure DNA testing could help pin each person's individual village in Kogi state and their kith and kin would be more than glad to welcome them back into their fold and re-absorb them again.