ayoku777:


Unfortunately for you, I understand well what it means to be ordained unto something. And it is clear from scripture that what a man is ordained unto does not override his freewill or his right of choice to decide where he ends up.

Judas Iscariot was ordained by Jesus to be among those who will sit on twelve thrones in the age to come judging the twelve tribes of Israel. But he chose to go his own way -the way of perdition; contrary to what he was ordained unto by God.

Matthew 19v28 -And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also (Judas inclusive) shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

But Judas chose to become a son of perdition and go the way of perdition.

Acts 1v25 -That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Judas was ordained to sit on a throne in the age to come, but he fell by transgression, and went his own way.

You see that?

A man can choose to go his own way, what he was ordained unto not withstanding. Just like names written in the book of life can be blotted out.

A man can by his own choice to depart from the faith, cause his own name to be blotted out of the book of life and end up in the lake of fire; even though the name was once in the book (that is, he once had eternal life).

You can argue with me, but not with scripture. Names can be blotted out of the book of life, according to Jesus.

Tip-toe all you want round these verses, it won't mean any other thing other than prove that salvation and eternal life can be lost by someone who once had it.

Shalom.

Salvation package was brought by the death, burial and ressurection of Christ. After the the Holy Spirit was released during pentecost and Has never left since then.He is still the governor among the nations.

The questions which you have never answered clearly with scriptures is:

1. Can a child of God lose his salvation?

2. Are there any elect in hell?

3. Can Jesus lose any He died for?

4.Am i saved by my works?

5. Can i be saved without works?

6.Is "perseverance of the saints" the solution?

7.Can i fall from grace?

8.Can the elect's Faith be overthrown?

9. Does severe chastening mean i am going to hell?

These are some of the questions we need answers sir! It is not done by selective picking of scriptures and quoting symbolic revelation to promote doctrinal opinions.

ABDULADINO:
The questions which you have never answered clearly with scriptures is:

1. Can a child of God lose his salvation?

If he departs from (forsakes, abandons) the faith in Christ by which he is saved, yes he can.

Apostle Paul told the gentile believers.

Romans 11v22 -Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be CUT OFF.

If it was impossible for a believer to be cut off from Christ, scripture will not warn us about it. If we are warned it is because it can happen, and to be cut off from Christ is to lose salvation.

ABDULADINO:
2. Are there any elect in hell?

An elect is a believer in Christ. For you to be in hell you need to be an unbeliever. You can't be a believer or elect and go to hell. But a believer can depart from the faith and become an unbeliever and go to hell.

In that case; an elect or believer did not go to hell. An elect or believer became an unbeliever (departed from the faith) and went to hell.

ABDULADINO:
3. Can Jesus lose any He died for?

Jesus cannot lose those He died for, but those He died for can depart from Him and from faith in Him. And He won't force them to stay.

Jesus didn't lose Judas (in the context of someone snatching Judas), Judas departed from Jesus and went his way. And Jesus didn't force him to stay.

Jesus cannot lose us but we can depart from Jesus and from faith in Him.

Hebrew 3v12 -Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

ABDULADINO:
4.Am i saved by my works?

No, you're saved by grace through faith.

Ephesians 2v8 -For by grace are ye saved through faith:

ABDULADINO:
5. Can i be saved without works?

You are saved without works. You are saved by grace through faith.

Ephesians 2v8 -For by grace are ye saved through faith:

ABDULADINO:
6.Is "perseverance of the saints" the solution?

The solution to what? Staying saved? Since we are saved by grace through faith, we stay saved by keeping the faith through which we are saved.

Paul said;

2Tim 4v7 -I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have KEPT THE FAITH:

Its your choice to keep the faith or depart from the faith.

ABDULADINO:
7.Can i fall from grace?

Ofcourse you can! We have access by faith into grace.

Romans 5v2 -By whom also we have access BY FAITH into this grace wherein we stand

If you depart from that faith (which is possible); you will fall from grace.

ABDULADINO:
8.Can the elect's Faith be overthrown?

The elect are the believers. Can a believer depart from (abandon, forsake) the faith? The Holy Spirit told Paul they can; and some will.

ABDULADINO:
9. Does severe chastening mean i am going to hell?

Going to the lake of fire is not chastening. It is the second death. The end place of everyone who died as an unbeliever in Christ.

ABDULADINO:
These are some of the questions we need answers sir! It is not done by selective picking of scriptures and quoting symbolic revelation to promote doctrinal opinions.

These letters of Christ and His warnings to the seven churches in revelation are more literal than symbolic.

These letters were dictated by Jesus to John; and were written to literal churches with literal believers in Christ, who lived in literal cities in a literal era (around 90AD to 100AD).

And the messages and warnings are relevant to every believer and every church in every era of the church age.

A believer's name being blotted out of the book of life, and him being hurt of the second death (lake of fire) is a literal warning.

Shalom!

ABDULADINO:
Lol. What is faith? Peter makes it plain that we are "chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father through the sanctifying work of the Spirit for obedience"(1 peter 1:2). Deal with that, then we can move on.

What is DEPART FROM FAITH?

5solas:

Alright! So that's why you won't admit predestination. It is common with Arminians. No amount of blackmail will keep us from admitting and proclaiming it.

Predestination is of character. God is no respecter of persons
Acts 10:34 (KJV)
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him

Predestination of individuals would be respecting or favoring some over others

No one is capable of saving themselves. The beauty of the gospel is that God decided to save some, even though He was under no obligation to save any.

This is both right and wrong.
It's true we are incapable of saving ourselves
It is false that God has hand picked who to save
He has given humanity a lifeline called Calvary. Take it or leave it. Refer to Acts 10:34

True, if you get saved, you saved yourself!
And yet for all that, some still get lost.

God has done his bit. Do your bit

And why only the character of the saved?


And sure enough, here, you think Him just!

because He is no respecter of persons.

John 7:37 (ESV)
37 On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water

Acts 2:40 (ESV)
40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.

God has done His bit, offered His Son. Do your bit; accept it or perish

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
God's will is NONE should perish. But they will and some here are saying He opts not to save some dooming them to hell.

The problem with these calvinists and neo-calvinists is that they indirectly tell us all the time Jesus and His Apostles told us to watch, they were pulling an April fool stunt! They hastily assume we mean we are saved by works!!! We are saved by faith but we are not kept against our will; we choose if we'll hold fast the faith to the end or not!

Scholar8200:
The problem with these calvinists and neo-calvinists is that they indirectly tell us all the time Jesus and His Apostles told us to watch, they were pulling an April fool stunt! They hastily assume we mean we are saved by works!!! We are saved by faith but we are not kept against our will; we choose if we'll hold fast the faith to the end or not!

One of the problems with Arminians is their penchant for jumping to accelerated conclusions. For example, Christ says:
Mathew 4

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

and they run away teaching that perfection is attainable in this life! Worse still they run away teaching that we will not be saved if we are not perfect! The worst is that they run away thinking they are perfect! It is the only way to convince themselves they are saved.And they justify their understanding of the verse by stating, ''He wouldn't have asked us to be perfect, if it wasn't possible''.
To show how false this kind of reasoning can be , let us consider Christ's encounter with the Samaritan woman in John 4:1-42. In verse 16, Jesus said to her,

16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.

. How would the Arminian had interpreted this verse if the Bible ended this encounter with this question? You guessed right, "It meant she had an husband or why else would Christ ask her to call her husband?"



What if there were other passages in scripture that indicated she wasn't married and you draw their attention to them? The Arminian would retort, '' you must convince me she is not married with this passage.''


Sadly, this is what plays out again and again when you attempt to show the Arminians their errors.

Moreover, 'the emphasis on enduring to the end', 'overcoming to the end', 'faithfulness to the end', 'Holding fast to the end' etc reiterates the need for us, after we have received salvation by faith, to remain steadfast in that faith to the end as a condition for going with , and dwelling with Him for ever and also warns of the possibility of missing these things if we fail to hold fast to the end.

vooks:

What is DEPART FROM FAITH?

Context. Paul warned timothy to ministerial faithfulness. It IS possible to have your faith wrecked by false teachers. To depart is NEVER to fall from salvation but from accurate bible doctrine.The entire context IS not SALVATION.

ayoku777:


If he departs from (forsakes, abandons) the faith in Christ by which he is saved, yes he can.

Apostle Paul told the gentile believers.

Romans 11v22 -Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be CUT OFF.

If it was impossible for a believer to be cut off from Christ, scripture will not warn us about it. If we are warned it is because it can happen, and to be cut off from Christ is to lose salvation.



An elect is a believer in Christ. For you to be in hell you need to be an unbeliever. You can't be a believer or elect and go to hell. But a believer can depart from the faith and become an unbeliever and go to hell.

In that case; an elect or believer did not go to hell. An elect or believer became an unbeliever (departed from the faith) and went to hell.



Jesus cannot lose those He died for, but those He died for can depart from Him and from faith in Him. And He won't force them to stay.

Jesus didn't lose Judas (in the context of someone snatching Judas), Judas departed from Jesus and went his way. And Jesus didn't force him to stay.

Jesus cannot lose us but we can depart from Jesus and from faith in Him.

Hebrew 3v12 -Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.



No, you're saved by grace through faith.

Ephesians 2v8 -For by grace are ye saved through faith:



You are saved without works. You are saved by grace through faith.

Ephesians 2v8 -For by grace are ye saved through faith:



The solution to what? Staying saved? Since we are saved by grace through faith, we stay saved by keeping the faith through which we are saved.

Paul said;

2Tim 4v7 -I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have KEPT THE FAITH:

Its your choice to keep the faith or depart from the faith.



Ofcourse you can! We have access by faith into grace.

Romans 5v2 -By whom also we have access BY FAITH into this grace wherein we stand

If you depart from that faith (which is possible); you will fall from grace.



The elect are the believers. Can a believer depart from (abandon, forsake) the faith? The Holy Spirit told Paul they can; and some will.



Going to the lake of fire is not chastening. It is the second death. The end place of everyone who died as an unbeliever in Christ.



These letters of Christ and His warnings to the seven churches in revelation are more literal than symbolic.

These letters were dictated by Jesus to John; and were written to literal churches with literal believers in Christ, who lived in literal cities in a literal era (around 90AD to 100AD).

And the messages and warnings are relevant to every believer and every church in every era of the church age.

A believer's name being blotted out of the book of life, and him being hurt of the second death (lake of fire) is a literal warning.

Shalom!

Edit. Sorry, The first question was wrongly answered. Romans 11:22 does not in any way indicate loss of salvation of a believer. Read Romans 11:29 where God's gift is irrevocable and that includes salvation.

The simple truth is that a child of God can never lose his salvation. A child of God can never lose heaven and end up in hell. He may lose earthly benefits of knowing and living the truth, but his name will stay in the book of life. God predestinated His elect to adoption as sons through the purchase price of Jesus Christ's death (Gal 4:4-6; Eph 1:3-6). Jesus Christ will stand before God and present every one of them to God (Heb 2:13). It is impossible for even one to be separated from God's love (Rom 8:28-39). It is God's faithfulness that keeps them, not their faithfulness. He will never repent of His gift of eternal life (Rom 11:29).

*Romans 8:29-39
Rom 8:29-39 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or unclothedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter." 37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (NKJ)

The second answer was not backed by scriptures but your opinions. There is no where in scripture where an elect is later called an unbeliever.The Believer is one of God's sheep. God gives the Believer Eternal Life. The promise is that they will never perish. A further promise relates the fact that no one can pluck the Believer out of God's hand.

The word "elect" means that God chose a person to eternal life before the world began (Rom 8:29-33; Eph 1:3-12; I Pet 1:2). God put the elect in the hand of Jesus Christ, and no man is able to pluck them out of either Christ's hand or God's hand (John 10:28-29). Just as surely as Adam made all men sinners, so Jesus Christ made all the elect righteous and beneficiaries of eternal life (Rom 5:14-19; I Cor 15:22). It is just as impossible for Jesus Christ to go to hell as it is for even one elect in Jesus Christ to go to hell (Ps 89:19-37; Heb 6:13-20).


As for the third Judas was never saved (Jn 6:70-71; 13:10-11)

John 6:70-71 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. (NKJ)

John 13:10-11 Jesus said to him, "He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, "You are not all clean." (NKJ).

Everyone in Jesus Christ, the elect are chosen in Him, will be saved to the uttermost (Heb 7:25). Jesus Christ will present every single one of the elect to God (Heb 2:13). Since His death was so precious, God will give every other gift to the elect (Rom 8:32). If anyone for whom Jesus died could be lost, then God would have to reject His Son's work, which cannot occur (Is 53:10-12).

I have repeatedly said it is possible to have your faith wrecked by false teachers, persecution, or temptations. Hymenaeus and Philetus overthrew the faith of some by teaching the resurrection had already come and gone; but God still knew those who were His, which is the real issue of eternal life anyway (II Tim 2:15-19). Paul warned Timothy to ministerial faithfulness, lest he cost his hearers the truth and righteous living (I Tim 4:16). And he told Corinth that they were of all men most miserable, if they let false teachers steal the doctrine of the resurrection from them (I Cor 15:2,19).

As for perseverance it does not logically follow that man who has done no work to obtain salvation, must somehow work to maintain salvation. Salvation is a GIFT received by faith alone in Christ alone. Those choosing not to walk with the Lord or abide in Him after salvation will suffer discipline in time (Hebrews 12:5-


Heb 12:5-8 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives." 7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. (NKJ)


And loss of rewards for eternity (1 Cor 3:11-15)


1 Cor 3:11-15 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (NKJ)


Salvation is NOT LOST because it has ALWAYS BEEN the work of God. We are not involved, except for receiving the "Gift" by faith in Christ.I take revelations as symbolic and not literal. Thanks.

ABDULADINO:
Context. Paul warned timothy to ministerial faithfulness. It IS possible to have your faith wrecked by false teachers. To depart is NEVER to fall from salvation but from accurate bible doctrine.The entire context IS not SALVATION.

Why are you wrestling scriptures?

What are consequences of a wrecked faith? God will ship to His side ex-believers devoid of faith?

Try and wrest this as well.

James 5:19-20 King James Version (KJV)
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Note James is addressing 'any among you' meaning believers. Also, unlike Paul in 1 Tim 4:1, James explains the CONSEQUENCES. Do you think James had in mind prolonging life when he talks of 'save a soul from death'? Or his understanding of predestination and salvation was deficient?

Cc Ayoku777,Winsomex

vooks:

Why are you wrestling scriptures?

What are consequences of a wrecked faith? God will ship to His side ex-believers devoid of faith?

Try and wrest this as well.

James 5:19-20 King James Version (KJV)
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Note James is addressing 'any among you' meaning believers. Also, unlike Paul in 1 Tim 4:1, James explains the CONSEQUENCES. Do you think James had in mind prolonging life when he talks of 'save a soul from death'? Or his understanding of predestination and salvation was deficient?

Cc Ayoku777,Winsomex

Juxtapose with the Pauline epistle to have a balance. Was The consequence hell? The Bible indicates that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

This means that no sin a believer commits can result in condemnation or loss of salvation. What about "believers" who live in a continual state of sin? Such individuals are hypocrites and not believers at all. The Bible indicates that believers do not practice sin on a routine basis. A direct example of a believer falling into sin, but still retaining his salvation is given by Paul:

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife... hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 5:1, 5)

Paul indicates that the man was committing incest with his father's wife (mother?), yet Paul was still confident that his spirit would be saved. So, a true believer cannot lose his salvation through sin.

ABDULADINO:
Context. Paul warned timothy to ministerial faithfulness. It IS possible to have your faith wrecked by false teachers. To depart is NEVER to fall from salvation but from accurate bible doctrine.The entire context IS not SALVATION.

Faith and faithfulness are not directly the same thing, and they are not synonyms. They can't be used interchangeably in sentences.

Eph 2v8 -For by grace are ye save through faith is not the same thing as Eph 2v8 -For by grace are ye save through faithfulness

When scripture talks about "Faithfulness" it is talking in terms of service. That's why you keep hearing the expression "faithful servant"

Matthew 25v21 -...weldone, thou good and faithful servant:

Matthew 25v23 -...weldone, thou good and faithful servant:

But when the scripture talks about "The Faith" it is talking about saving faith; the faith by which we are saved, justified and made believers. The faith in Christ which if we lack makes us unbelievers.

Eph 2v8 -For by grace are ye save through faith (not faithfulness)

Romans 5v1 -Therefore being justified by faith (not faithfulness); we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is the faith the Holy Spirit said some shall depart from in the last days. The faith by which we are saved and justified in Christ Jesus -not faithfulness.

1Timothy 4v1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times SOME SHALL DEPART FROM THE FAITH, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

Ofcourse the believers who depart from this faith became unbelievers, and clearly lost salvation.

And since you brought up the issue of context; let me ask you.

In what context did Paul mean that the gentile believers will be cut off from Christ if they don't continue in His goodness in this verse?

Romans 11v22 -Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be CUT OFF.

In what other context can a believer be cut off from Christ other than in the context of the loss of salvation? Because branches that are cut off are cast into the fire, according to Jesus.

John 15v6 -If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth (cut off) as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

The only context in which a branch is cut off from its vine is the context that ends in the fire.

To be cut off from Christ is to lose salvation and end in the lake of fire. And scripture warns that it is possible.

Then also, in what context will names in the book of life be blotted out? Because there is only one end for those whose names are not found written in the book of life -lake of fire.

And remember He said the names will be blotted out, not that the name won't be written in. Meaning the name was there before. So, in what context will it be blotted out other than the context of the loss of salvation?

Shalom!

ABDULADINO:
Juxtapose with the Pauline epistle to have a balance. Was The consequence hell? The Bible indicates that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

This means that no sin a believer commits can result in condemnation or loss of salvation. What about "believers" who live in a continual state of sin? Such individuals are hypocrites and not believers at all. The Bible indicates that believers do not practice sin on a routine basis. A direct example of a believer falling into sin, but still retaining his salvation is given by Paul:

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife... hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 5:1, 5)

Paul indicates that the man was committing incest with his father's wife (mother?), yet Paul was still confident that his spirit would be saved. So, a true believer cannot lose his salvation through sin.

On 1 Cor 5:5 , note Paul uses the language of probability, not certainty (MAY.) The goal of handing him over was discipline and reformation to the end that he may repent and his soul saved.

1 CORINTHIANS 5:5
KJ21 deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus.
ASV to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
AMP You are to deliver this man over to Satan for physical discipline [to destroy carnal lusts which prompted him to incest], that [his] spirit may [yet] be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
BRG To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
CEB At that time we need to hand this man over to Satan to destroy his human weakness so that his spirit might be saved on the day of the Lord.
CJB hand over such a person to the Adversary for his old nature to be destroyed, so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord.
CEV You must then hand that man over to Satan. His body will be destroyed, but his spirit will be saved when the Lord Jesus returns.
DARBY to deliver him, [I say,] [being] such, to Satan for destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
DLNT you are to hand-over such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, in order that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
DRA To deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
ERV Then turn this man over to Satan. His sinful self has to be destroyed so that his spirit will be saved on the day when the Lord comes again.
ESV you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
ESVUK you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
EXB then hand this man over to Satan. So his ·sinful self will be destroyed [sinful nature will be purged; or body/flesh will be destroyed; or body will be beaten down by sin], and his spirit will be saved on the day of the Lord.
GNV Be delivered unto Satan, for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Let me paste that verse again for those who need repetition to gerrit
James 5:20 (KJV)
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
James talks of saving his SOUL not body. Do you know what is a soul?

vooks:

On 1 Cor 5:5 , note Paul uses the language of probability, not certainty (MAY.) The goal of handing him over was discipline and reformation to the end that he may repent and his soul saved.



Let me paste that verse again for those who need repetition to gerrit
James 5:20 (KJV)
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
James talks of saving his SOUL not body. Do you know what is a soul?

Believers do not LOSE their salvation through sinning. Even if the verse was addressed to brothers, not all the brethren are necessarily saved. Ananias and Saphira is an example of such.

ABDULADINO:
The first question was wrongly answered. Romans 11:22 does not in any way indicate loss of salvation of a believer. Read Romans 11:29 where God's gift is irrevocable and that includes salvation.

You said CUT OFF does not indicate loss of salvation?

Let me put you through. The context in which Paul used the word "cut off" is the same context in which he said the jews were cut off.

How were the jews cut off?

Romans 11v20 -Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. [/b]

Can you see? The jews were cut off because of unbelief. And that is the same context he warned that the gentile believers would be cut off if they do not continue in God's goodness.

Question: Why would Paul warn believers of something that only befalls unbelievers; since only unbelievers can be cut off?

Easy answer: Because a believer can fall away into unbelief and become an unbeliever. And de-converted unbeliever will lose salvation.

So the context in which Paul warned the gentile believers about being cut off is in the context of the loss of salvation by becoming an unbeliever.

If a believer can never become an unbeliever, the scripture will never warn believers of something that only befalls unbelievers -BEING CUT OFF.

ABDULADINO:
I take revelations as symbolic and not literal. Thanks.

So the city of Ephesians is a symbolic city, not literal? Or the city of Laodicea is a symbolic city? Or the city of Sardis is a symbolic city too?

You just don't say "I take Revelation as symbolic not literal. Thanks". The Word of God is not subject to how you choose to take it. The Word of God is what it is. You take it as it is.

The cities in the book of Revelation are literal cities not symbolic. Ephesus, Laodicea, Sardis etc, are all literal cities. And the churches in those cities that Jesus wrote to are literal churches too, with literal believers that lived in a literal era (around 90AD).

So all the instructions and warnings Jesus gave those believers about their names being blotted out of the book of life and being hurt of the second death (lake of fire), are all literal warnings to literal believers. Instructions and warnings that are relevant to every believers in every era of the church age.

Names being blotted out of the book of life is a literal warning; and according to Jesus, it will happen to believers who depart from the faith and don't end as overcomers.

The Word of God is not subject to how you choose to take it. It is what it is.

Shalom!

ayoku777:


Faith and faithfulness are not directly the same thing, and they are not synonyms. They can't be used interchangeably in sentences.

Eph 2v8 -For by grace are ye save through faith is not the same thing as Eph 2v8 -For by grace are ye save through faithfulness

When scripture talks about "Faithfulness" it is talking in terms of service. That's why you keep hearing the expression "faithful servant"

Matthew 25v21 -...weldone, thou good and faithful servant:

Matthew 25v23 -...weldone, thou good and faithful servant:

But when the scripture talks about "The Faith" it is talking about saving faith; the faith by which we are saved, justified and made believers. The faith in Christ which if we lack makes us unbelievers.

Eph 2v8 -For by grace are ye save through faith (not faithfulness)

Romans 5v1 -Therefore being justified by faith (not faithfulness); we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is the faith the Holy Spirit said some shall depart from in the last days. The faith by which we are saved and justified in Christ Jesus -not faithfulness.

1Timothy 4v1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times SOME SHALL DEPART FROM THE FAITH, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

Ofcourse the believers who depart from this faith became unbelievers, and clearly lost salvation.

Did Ananias and Sapphira depart from the Faith? God still knows those who are His. He knows the end from the beginning. it is possible to have your faith wrecked by false teachers, persecution, or temptations. Hymenaeus and Philetus overthrew the faith of some by teaching the resurrection had already come and gone; but God still knew those who were His.

The fact that some people fall away from the faith does not mean that they were ever saved, but that they had professed to be Christians at some point in time. They knew about the Lord Jesus Christ and professed for a time to follow Him, but then they apostatized from the faith.

And since you brought up the issue of context; let me ask you.

In what context did Paul mean that the gentile believers will be cut off from Christ if they don't continue in His goodness in this verse?

Romans 11v22 -Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be CUT OFF.

In what other context can a believer be cut off from Christ other than in the context of the loss of salvation? Because branches that are cut off are cast into the fire, according to Jesus.

John 15v6 -If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth (cut off) as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

The only context in which a branch is cut off from its vine is the context that ends in the fire.

To be cut off from Christ is to lose salvation and end in the lake of fire. And scripture warns that it is possible.

This is the chastisement of the believer not bearing fruit as in 1 Cor 5:5, the body is destroyed (Sin Unto Death), but the soul is preserved.

1 Cor 5:5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (NKJ)


It is equivalent to the Judgment Seat of Christ (1 Cor 3:15) where useless works are burned while the person is saved

1 Cor 3:15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (NKJ)



Christian Living is "abiding in Christ" and those cast forth are not in Christ but actually are "tares" masquerading as "wheat" and are unsaved.

Then also, in what context will names in the book of life be blotted out? Because there is only one end for those whose names are not found written in the book of life -lake of fire.

And remember He said the names will be blotted out, not that the name won't be written in. Meaning the name was there before. So, in what context will it be blotted out other than the context of the loss of salvation?

Shalom!

Revelation 3:5 says, "He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life."

The question is what is this "book of life" and how does one's name get into the book or be removed from the book? The Old Testament verses describing the "book of Life" indicate that all the living are placed in the book of life and are removed from the book as the result of systematic sin (i.e., unbelief).

In the New Testament, the book of Revelation says that names are written in the book of life only for those who believe.

However, their names were written in the book "from the creation of the world." In Revelation 3:5, Jesus says He "will never blot out his name from the book of life" to those who overcome. He didn't say He would blot out the names of those who fall. However, believers have been given the authority to "overcome all the power of the enemy" (Luke 10:19).

Because you will burn in hell!!

God must love suya and asun alot o

The problem is some people cant differentiate between a Gift and a Reward,between Enternal Life and The Kingdom of God.
nice one @Jaggaz and An2elect2.
5solas...longtime how body?

ABDULADINO:
The first question was wrongly answered. Romans 11:22 does not in any way indicate loss of salvation of a believer. Read Romans 11:29 where God's gift is irrevocable and that includes salvation.

You said CUT OFF does not indicate loss of salvation?

Let me put you through the context in which Paul used the word "cut off". It is the same context in which he said the jews were cut off.

He said;

Romans 11v22 - ...otherwise ye ALSO shall be CUT OFF

He said if the believers don't continue in God's goodness, they will also be cut off like the jews. How were the jews cut off?

Romans 11v20 -Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith.

Can you see? The jews were cut off because of unbelief. And that is the same context he warned that the gentile believers would be cut off if they do not continue in God's goodness by faith.

Question: Why would Paul warn believers of something that only befalls an unbeliever; since only unbelievers can be cut off?

Easy answer: Because a believer can revert or fall away into unbelief and become an unbeliever. And a de-converted unbeliever will surely lose salvation.

So the context in which Paul warned the gentile believers about being cut off is in the context of the loss of salvation through becoming an unbeliever.

If a believer can NEVER revert into unbelief and become an unbeliever, the scripture will never warn believers of something that only befalls unbelievers -BEING CUT OFF.

"Cut off" as used by Paul in warning the gentile believers is only in the conext of the loss of salvation; the way someone in unbelief is cut off from Christ. And if it was impossible for a believer to be cut off in that context, scripture will never say "otherwise ye also shall be cut off".

And please stop trying to make "wreck the faith" and "depart from the faith" to mean the same thing. "I wrecked my car" and "I departed from my car" don't mean the same thing in any universe.

You can still have in possession something that is wrecked or damaged, but you can't still have or be with or in something you've departed from.

To depart from the faith is to abandon or forsake the faith. It means you reverted into unbelief, you became an unbeliever. Your faith was not just injured or damaged by false doctrine, YOU LEFT THE FAITH.

Don't insult my intelligence, or worse, twist the words of the Holy Spirit. Let the scripture say what it said.

Shalom!

ichuka:
The problem is some people cant differentiate between a Gift and a Reward,between Enternal Life and The Kingdom of God.
nice one @Jaggaz and An2elect2.
5solas...longtime how body?

True talk.
I am fine thanks, and you?

jiggaz:
Abeg face your front..... The message is not for you.... Its for those who Believe....

if somebody is born again and he live in fornication, fight, dupe people, tell lies etc, can you still see him as a child of God?

My brothers, Christ is able to do all things. Jude 24 says:" Now to Him who is able to keep you from FALLING and to present you FAULTLESS before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy", this shows that we can fall.But the good thing is that he is able to keep us from doing so.Be warned about this law of perfect liberty we are now in, please. It is very easy and at the same time, dangerous. Read the entire Jude and you will realize there were those who were once saved and later caste to damnation because of their sins.

ichuka:
The problem is some people cant differentiate between a Gift and a Reward,between Enternal Life and The Kingdom of God.
nice one @Jaggaz and An2elect2.
5solas...longtime how body?

ichuka:
The problem is some people cant differentiate between a Gift and a Reward,between Enternal Life and The Kingdom of God.
nice one @Jaggaz and An2elect2.
5solas...longtime how body?

Am good bro and you? True talk.... The gift of Salvation gives us Eternal Life and our works gives us Reward and position during the 1000 years Milennial reign of Christ.... Dat a Believer in Christ does not have WORKS here on earth does not take away his Salvation.... But its a pity dat most people don't understand dat. It takes the Grace of God and the Holy Spirit to fully understand this message of Grace.... Thanks bro for commenting.

ABDULADINO:
Did Ananias and Sapphira depart from the Faith? God still knows those who are His. He knows the end from the beginning. it is possible to have your faith wrecked by false teachers, persecution, or temptations. Hymenaeus and Philetus overthrew the faith of some by teaching the resurrection had already come and gone; but God still knew those who were His.
The fact that some people fall away from the faith does not mean that they were ever saved, but that they had professed to be Christians at some point in time. They knew about the Lord Jesus Christ and professed for a time to follow Him, but then they apostatized from the faith.
This is the chastisement of the believer not bearing fruit as in 1 Cor 5:5, the body is destroyed (Sin Unto Death), but the soul is preserved.
1 Cor 5:5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (NKJ)

It is equivalent to the Judgment Seat of Christ (1 Cor 3:15) where useless works are burned while the person is saved
1 Cor 3:15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (NKJ)

Christian Living is "abiding in Christ" and those cast forth are not in Christ but actually are "tares" masquerading as "wheat" and are unsaved.
Revelation 3:5 says, "He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life."
The question is what is this "book of life" and how does one's name get into the book or be removed from the book? The Old Testament verses describing the "book of Life" indicate that all the living are placed in the book of life and are removed from the book as the result of systematic sin (i.e., unbelief).
In the New Testament, the book of Revelation says that names are written in the book of life only for those who believe.
However, their names were written in the book "from the creation of the world." In Revelation 3:5, Jesus says He "will never blot out his name from the book of life" to those who overcome. He didn't say He would blot out the names of those who fall. However, believers have been given the authority to "overcome all the power of the enemy" (Luke 10:19).

Excellent explanation bro. You understand the message of Grace.

ABDULADINO:
Believers do not LOSE their salvation through sinning. Even if the verse was addressed to brothers, not all the brethren are necessarily saved. Ananias and Saphira is an example of such.

You are confused or acting hard to confuse.
There is not a remote probability that the verse was addressed to anybody other than believers. Would James go calling sinners his brethren?
If they are not saved then they are not brethren in the first place. So, why call them thus?
Ananias and Saphira were brethren. Who told you they were not?

Read this verse again
James 5:19-20 (ESV)
19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

For somebody to wander from the truth they must have been in the truth in the first place. Sinners don't wander from the truth seeing they were never in it. So the subject here are believers AMONG THEM who strayed and risked death. Note too the death in question is that of a soul and not just the body.

I find this theory of yours of casting aspersions on believers' historical faith on the basis of their current action unreasonable. You for instance were you to fall away and start living in sin. Would we be justified in adjudging you as unsaved ab initio?

If we did, then it means all the present Christians just think they are Christians but the real ones we can only find out in future should they fall away

jiggaz:
Am good bro and you? True talk.... The gift of Salvation gives us Eternal Life and our works gives us Reward and position during the 1000 years Milennial reign of Christ.... Dat a Believer in Christ does not have WORKS here on earth does not take away his Salvation.... But its a pity dat most people don't understand dat. It takes the Grace of God and the Holy Spirit to fully understand this message of Grace.... Thanks bro for commenting.

You have said all.
Am a Nigerian because i was born so(just like "born again"if i work hard(schooling etc)i might become a Councilor,Governor or the President(this is like the Kingdom reign which will last for a 1000years)but after 4years i will become an ordinary citizen again.if i decide not to work hard am still a citizen of Nigeria.
am fine.cheers

am fine thanks

ichuka:

You have said all.
Am a Nigerian because i was born so(just like "born again"if i work hard(schooling etc)i might become a Councilor,Governor or the President(this is like the Kingdom reign which will last for a 1000years)but after 4years i will become an ordinary citizen again.if i decide not to work hard am still a citizen of Nigeria.
am fine.cheers
am fine thanks

Excellent!!!

ichuka:
The problem is some people cant differentiate between a Gift and a Reward,between Enternal Life and The Kingdom of God.
nice one @Jaggaz and An2elect2.
5solas...longtime how body?

True Ichuka!

ichuka:

You have said all.
Am a Nigerian because i was born so(just like "born again"if i work hard(schooling etc)i might become a Councilor,Governor or the President(this is like the Kingdom reign which will last for a 1000years)but after 4years i will become an ordinary citizen again.if i decide not to work hard am still a citizen of Nigeria.
am fine.cheers

am fine thanks

This analogy is superb! Where have you been!

Our brother in the Lord,Abduladino! where have you been!

An2elect2:


This analogy is superb! Where have you been!

Thanks sis.
Have been arround.