ayoku777:


Oh please, come on, enough with the "what ifs" and "antinomian checks". Someone that is not grafted into Christ cannot be warned of being cut off.

If Paul was talking to pretentious unbelievers; he would warn them to check themselves if they were truly grafted into Christ, if they truly believe in Him. He would not warn them of being cut off. You can't cut off what was never grafted; and unbelievers were never grafted.

Don't insult my intelligence, this is not rocket science. Pretentious, self-deluding unbelievers are not standing by faith and were never grafted into Christ; so the warning of being cut off does not and cannot apply to them.

The warning of being cut off can only apply to those who are really grafted into Christ -which can only refer to real believers.

Unbelievers cannot be cut off from Christ because they were never grafted into Him. Paul knows this, the scripture knows this, and the Holy Spirit that inspired both Paul and the scripture knows it. So the warning applies to only believers.

Believers are the only ones grafted into the Christ, so the warning of being cut off can apply only to them.

No need for "what ifs" or "antinomian checks" or "pelagian checks" to understand this simple truth. You can't warn those who were never grafted about being cut off. Only believers can be cut off, because only believers are ever grafted.



You obviously don't know me. So don't even presume you do.

I don't believe and I've never preached that salvation can be lost by works. You can't lose your salvation to fornication or stealing or lies or to any such thing. Salvation can only be lost through unbelief; by departing from the faith and reverting into unbelief.

The fornicator brother in 1Cor 5, sleeping with his stepmom; Paul said they should deliver him into the hands of satan, for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit might be saved.

You can't deliver someone into the hands of satan if he is already in his hands. Meaning that the unrepentant fornicator brother with all his in.cest is still in the hands of Christ.

And infact it is his body that is being delivered into the hands of satan for buffeting and destruction if he doesn't repent. His soul and spirit still remains in the hands of Christ.

This proves that salvation is not lost by sin or by carnality. It is lost only by unbelief, by departing from the faith in Christ.

A carnal christian is called a "babe in Christ", meaning he is still "in Christ". So carnality does not cost believers their salvation; even though it will cost them reward and greatness. Every sin is unto spiritual demotion but only unbelief is unto spiritual death.

Only believers who depart from the faith lose their salvation and are cut off from Christ, not those who commit sins or are carnal. So no one is preaching works here.

How do we receive God's goodness? By putting our faith in Christ. And how do we continue in God's goodness? By keeping the faith by which we received His goodness; by not departing from faith in Christ and reverting into unbelief.

To continue in God's goodness is to keep the faith in Christ by which you received the goodness. It is not by doing good works. Also, to not continue in God's goodness, is not by doing evil works; it is by not keeping the faith, it is by departing from the faith. And believers who don't keep the faith but revert into unbelief will be cut off.

No one is saying salvation is gained or lost by works. Salvation is received through faith and only lost by departing from the faith. And a believer can depart from the faith according to the Holy Spirit.



How is it any of my business to know who is in the faith and who is not in the faith? Are my the Holy Spirit? My judgment doesn't count, because I don't know men's heart.

But the Holy Spirit who knows men's heart, says some people in the faith will depart from the faith in the last days.

That's it! I'm using what the Holy Spirit said to establish doctrine. He didn't say some believers will become fornicators and thiefs. No! He said some believers will become unbelievers.

He said some people who believe in Christ will depart from the faith and revert into unbelief.

The Spirit wasn't talking about evil works here; He wasn't talking about a believer becoming a carnal christian. He was talking about a believer becoming an unbeliever. About someone in the faith reverting into unbelief in Christ.

No one is preaching that salvation is gained or lost by any good works or evil works respectively. But that salvation is received by faith in Christ, and lost by departure from faith in Christ.

And not only can that happen; the Holy Spirit said it will happen!

Shalom!

5solas:

The above is a nice submission and I have liked and shared it. However, I still disagree about the unbelief/ faith bit. I will comment on it later.

5solas:


Just wondering what Vooks thinks. He has been on about man doing his bit.

ayoku777:


Oh please, come on, enough with the "what ifs" and "antinomian checks". Someone that is not grafted into Christ cannot be warned of being cut off.

If Paul was talking to pretentious unbelievers; he would warn them to check themselves if they were truly grafted into Christ, if they truly believe in Him. He would not warn them of being cut off. You can't cut off what was never grafted; and unbelievers were never grafted.

Don't insult my intelligence, this is not rocket science. Pretentious, self-deluding unbelievers are not standing by faith and were never grafted into Christ; so the warning of being cut off does not and cannot apply to them.

The warning of being cut off can only apply to those who are really grafted into Christ -which can only refer to real believers.

Unbelievers cannot be cut off from Christ because they were never grafted into Him. Paul knows this, the scripture knows this, and the Holy Spirit that inspired both Paul and the scripture knows it. So the warning applies to only believers.

Believers are the only ones grafted into the Christ, so the warning of being cut off can apply only to them.

No need for "what ifs" or "antinomian checks" or "pelagian checks" to understand this simple truth. You can't warn those who were never grafted about being cut off. Only believers can be cut off, because only believers are ever grafted.

You obviously don't know me. So don't even presume you do.

I don't believe and I've never preached that salvation can be lost by works. You can't lose your salvation to fornication or stealing or lies or to any such thing. Salvation can only be lost through unbelief; by departing from the faith and reverting into unbelief.

The fornicator brother in 1Cor 5, sleeping with his stepmom; Paul said they should deliver him into the hands of satan, for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit might be saved.

You can't deliver someone into the hands of satan if he is already in his hands. Meaning that the unrepentant fornicator brother with all his in.cest is still in the hands of Christ.

And infact it is his body that is being delivered into the hands of satan for buffeting and destruction if he doesn't repent. His soul and spirit still remains in the hands of Christ.

This proves that salvation is not lost by sin or by carnality. It is lost only by unbelief, by departing from the faith in Christ.

A carnal christian is called a "babe in Christ", meaning he is still "in Christ". So carnality does not cost believers their salvation; even though it will cost them reward and greatness. Every sin is unto spiritual demotion but only unbelief is unto spiritual death.

Only believers who depart from the faith lose their salvation and are cut off from Christ, not those who commit sins or are carnal. So no one is preaching works here.

How do we receive God's goodness? By putting our faith in Christ. And how do we continue in God's goodness? By keeping the faith by which we received His goodness; by not departing from faith in Christ and reverting into unbelief.

To continue in God's goodness is to keep the faith in Christ by which you received the goodness. It is not by doing good works. Also, to not continue in God's goodness, is not by doing evil works; it is by not keeping the faith, it is by departing from the faith. And believers who don't keep the faith but revert into unbelief will be cut off.

No one is saying salvation is gained or lost by works. Salvation is received through faith and only lost by departing from the faith. And a believer can depart from the faith according to the Holy Spirit.



How is it any of my business to know who is in the faith and who is not in the faith? Are my the Holy Spirit? My judgment doesn't count, because I don't know men's heart.

But the Holy Spirit who knows men's heart, says some people in the faith will depart from the faith in the last days.

That's it! I'm using what the Holy Spirit said to establish doctrine. He didn't say some believers will become fornicators and thiefs. No! He said some believers will become unbelievers.

He said some people who believe in Christ will depart from the faith and revert into unbelief.

The Spirit wasn't talking about evil works here; He wasn't talking about a believer becoming a carnal christian. He was talking about a believer becoming an unbeliever. About someone in the faith reverting into unbelief in Christ.

No one is preaching that salvation is gained or lost by any good works or evil works respectively. But that salvation is received by faith in Christ, and lost by departure from faith in Christ.

And not only can that happen; the Holy Spirit said it will happen!

Shalom!

¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

An2elect2:


Lol. He forgot that God is the author and finisher of our faith.

Vooks needs thorough study of the scriptures. I pray God grant him sight.

5solas:
First and foremost I have dropped all my weapons. If we agree on faith and works and their roles in the life of the believer, I think we do, then there is no need for a fight.


Alright. I discovered right early a pattern from the Bible, the epistles in particular, firstly a teaching on how we get saved, with an admonition that it is not of our works (it is not deserved!) and secondly an exhortation on how to conduct ourselves now that we are saved. Granted that some believers are carnal like the man that took his father's wife, how do you admonish such? Persuaded that he was a believer but seeing him wallow in sin? This was Paul's dilemma. He found a skillful way out.


Alright. I think he was talking to believers, I have affirmed that much before. However, what if the carnality of a few needed addressing, how would he have done it. persuaded as he was that they had all believed and were saved?
What then happens to our belief that salvation is not deserved?

Thanks for your clarification on your stand concerning works, we completely agree. However,giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils is a sin. I fail to see any unbelief that is not rooted in sin.

1 Tim. 4:1

Note also as An2elect2 just pointed out, that God Himself is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

sportsmaster:
my final quote.

John5:24:-Verily,verily,I say unto you,He that hears my Word and believes on him that sent me,hath everlasting life,and SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION;but is passed from death to life.

John10:28"And i give unto them eternal life;and they shall never perish,neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
29My father which gave them to me is greater than all;no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

what is Jesus saying here?.
I want answers
Cc vooks,scholar8200,jiggaz,ayoku777.

sportsmaster:
my final quote.

John5:24:-Verily,verily,I say unto you,He that hears my Word and believes on him that sent me,hath everlasting life,and SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION;but is passed from death to life.

John10:28"And i give unto them eternal life;and they shall never perish,neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
29My father which gave them to me is greater than all;no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

what is Jesus saying here?.
I want answers
Cc vooks,scholar8200,jiggaz,ayoku777.

vooks:


BELIEVES is active continuous tense.


Nothing can pluck you from Jesus/Father's hand. But you are not held there against your will. You can walk away.

Think Adam in Eden. NOTHING could pluck him from Eden. Not even Satan. But the devil provoked him to rebel and walk away from all that

5solas:


Thanks for the excellent distinction ! We now know satan is different from the devil !

vooks:


BELIEVES is active continuous tense.


Nothing can pluck you from Jesus/Father's hand. But you are not held there against your will. You can walk away.

Think Adam in Eden. NOTHING could pluck him from Eden. Not even Satan. But the devil provoked him to rebel and walk away from all that

5solas:


Thanks for the excellent distinction ! We now know satan is different from the devil !

sportsmaster:


obviously,turning away from Christ is the only thing that can deny you heaven.
not sinful actions

An2elect2:


And none of the elects will turn away. If any one abandons the faith, then he/she was never a part of the fold.

sportsmaster:
my final quote.

John5:24:-Verily,verily,I say unto you,He that hears my Word and believes on him that sent me,hath everlasting life,and SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION;but is passed from death to life.

John10:28"And i give unto them eternal life;and they shall never perish,neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
29My father which gave them to me is greater than all;no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

what is Jesus saying here?.
I want answers.

sportsmaster:


obviously,turning away from Christ is the only thing that can deny you heaven.
not sinful actions

An2elect2:


They cant see the contradictions in what they profess. Nothing can pluck him from God's hand but but but his choice/will Then there is something than can pluck him out

5solas:

The above is a nice submission and I have liked and shared it. However, I still disagree about the unbelief/ faith bit. I will comment on it later.


Just wondering what Vooks thinks. He has been on about man doing his bit.

[quote author=ayoku777 post=37137888]

This is the lie you're peddling. That if someone can depart from the faith, he was never in the fold. How convenient.

So there are unelected believers? So there are believers in Christ now, who are not elected?

So we believers in Christ are not even sure yet if we are among the elect? We just have to wait to see if we depart from the faith; then we will know if we are elected or not?

Listen and listen good. There is no believer in Christ who is not an elect. And if a believer can depart from the faith, according to the Holy Spirit; it means even the elect can fall away.

He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 1:

2Peter 1v10 -Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

If our election is inherently sure or unmovable by default; why would the scripture admonish us to give diligence to making it sure (or making sure it doesn't move) ?

That God is Sovereign doesn't mean He is a dictator; All-powerful doesn't mean All-imposing.

Time and time again Jesus warned the churches in revelation; "He that overcometh...".

Why that statement? Isn't every believer an overcomer? If every believer will end an overcomer by force, will you be telling believers, "He that overcometh..." ?

Some believers will depart from the faith and will not end as overcomers. And believers who don't end as overcomers, will have their names blotted out of the book of life (Rev 3v5) and will be hurt of the second death -lake of fire (Rev 2v11)

This statement that anyone who can depart from the faith was never an elect is a lie. There is no such thing as an unelected believer. Every believer is an elect of God. Those who depart from faith in Christ did not make their election sure.

The choice to keep or depart from the faith is perpetually ours. Jesus being the author and perfecter of our faith is not whether we want it or not.

Shalom.

muphasar11:


Mind if I come in here
If we deliberately walk against the word we need not denounce Christ with words our actions already says who we are serving.
If we confess christ with our mouth and our actions say otherwise we are not of his fold.
So even if we don't want to leave and nothing is drawing us away if we fail to walk in the spirit and then end up fulfilling the laws of the flesh. It boils down to same thing. The line between salvation and condemnation is so thin most people won't know when they have crossed out of Gods grace.
its either one serves God or you serve Sin
No 1 can serve 2 masters.

Good morning

vooks:


BELIEVES is active continuous tense.


Nothing can pluck you from Jesus/Father's hand. But you are not held there against your will. You can walk away.

Think Adam in Eden. NOTHING could pluck him from Eden. Not even Satan. But the devil provoked him to rebel and walk away from all that

An2elect2:


They cant see the contradictions in what they profess. Nothing can pluck him from God's hand but but but his choice/will Then there is something than can pluck him out

vooks:


Man has a responsibility in his salvation. His role is to RESPOND to God's grace. Responding is not working; responding is a CONDITION for salvation. Faith is not salvation, it is a condition for salvation.

ayoku777:


No man, no challenge may be able to pluck your wife out of your embrace; if you really love her that much -not even her attitude, her mood swings, or her tantrums. But what if it is the wife herself that wants to leave you? No one is plucking her, she's just tired of your embrace; and wants to depart.

Even the Almighty God that said He hates divorce; experienced one.

Malachi 2v16 -For the Lord, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away (divorce) :

But He himself suffered divorce from Israel, when Israel left Him;

Jeremiah 3v1 -...but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the Lord.

v7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.

v8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce;

God was even willing to forgive the adultery of Israel and receive her back, but Israel would not return. And so, God let her go.

If God tells you, I will never leave you; He means it. But what if you want to leave Him? Will He hold you down because He promised He will never leave you? NO! His promise of not leaving you depends on you wanting to stay too.

So if Jesus says nothing can pluck you out of His hands and you will never perish; that is if you want to stay. The world and the devil cannot pluck you out of His hands if you want to stay.

The idea that the covenant of salvation leaves nothing to our involvment; is a lie. There is no covenant without conditions binding on either parties in the covenant. The condition for ours is faith; and keeping the faith.

We can't save ourselves, but we can choose to accept or reject the offer to be saved by faith. Or even accept the offer by faith then depart from the faith.

Nothing can pluck you out of His hands, but you can depart all on your own. And Jesus will not hold you down by force.

But unbelief is the only way you depart and lose the salvation.

Shalom!

vooks:

You can't turn away from Christ unless you were in Him. You are a candidate for turning away

But I pray you persevere

sportsmaster:


that is what i am saying in essence.
Sins will be forgiven.
But to turn away from Christ,the author of salvation,you dint lose salvation,YOU THREW IT AWAY.
Lol

ABDULADINO:
This is a pitiable doctrine. There is NO CONDITION for salvation.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (NKJ)

ABDULADINO:
Yes, believers sin, but do not live in a state of continual sin.The claim that the doctrine of eternal security might lead to licentiousness is a red herring.
Thanks
But you seem to get the point of that 1Cor 5 partly wrong. One of my bible has that chapter titled Expel the Immoral Brother.

Please read Hebrews 6:4-6, Romans 6:1-3

Jesus says when you sin your serving satan, and that settles it. Its possible for one to fall even when in christ but we have an advocate in Jesus. Christ doesn't want us as believers to perish but he doesn't want us to live in sin while saved because of grace. The soul that sinneth shall die.

We musnt grow in Christ to become like the pharisees and saaducees.

When we come into christ the old man has to go. If we have issues here and there we must work on it. And pray,study till we become like the master. We must change daily.





Paul already debunked this when he said It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife... hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 5:1, 5)

Paul shows that the man was committing incest with his father's wife (mother?), yet Paul was still confident that his spirit would be saved. So, a true believer cannot lose his salvation through sin.

sportsmaster:
my final quote.
John5:24:-Verily,verily,I say unto you,He that hears my Word and believes on him that sent me,hath everlasting life,and SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION;but is passed from death to life.
John10:28"And i give unto them eternal life;and they shall never perish,neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
29My father which gave them to me is greater than all;no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
what is Jesus saying here?.
I want answers
Cc vooks,scholar8200,jiggaz,ayoku777.

jiggaz:
Jesus was saying that once you are saved, you can never be unsaved. A Believer in CHRIST doesn't lose his Salvation because he sins.... The only way Salvation can be lost is if the person denounces CHRIST which is rare....

jiggaz:
Jesus was saying that once you are saved, you can never be unsaved. A Believer in CHRIST doesn't lose his Salvation because he sins.... The only way Salvation can be lost is if the person denounces CHRIST which is rare....

sportsmaster:

ayoku777 was saying the same thing,you guys did not read and understand each others texts.