WinsomeX:
[size=3pt]Vooks, Let me respond to the matter of pagan worship and the fact that modern tongue speaking is one and the same. My reference remains 1 Cor 14:2 -

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

In the opening statement of this thread, I showed clearly that the tongue or language Paul describes in this verse has 3 xtics:

1. They're not understandable.
2. They were mystery languages.
3. They were spoken to "theo": God or a god - the context telling us which is which.

The testimony of Acts 2 and 1 Cor 14 shows clearly that true biblical tongues are understandable. That these tongues were not mystery languages but languages that could be interpreted. This is the scripture modern Pentecostals latch on to justify unintelligible gibberish. Unfortunately no scripture tells us tongues are unintelligible. No one prayed with unintelligible tongues in the bible. Jesus never did. Where then do Pentecostals get there example: pagans. Consider this quote from the an article online:

But this practice(tongues) is not only a recent phenomenon, but was common in pagan worship long before Christ came. Robert G. Gromacki, in The Modern Tongues Movement
(pp 5-10), documents the history of “speaking in tongues” in antiquity. Some of these ecstatic babbling were reported in the “Report of Wenamon” (about 1100 BC), Plato’s Dialogues (5th century BC), and Virgil’s Aeneid (1st century BC). The Graeco- Roman mystery religions before and after the Christian era most probably practiced these babbling utterances.

The article is titled: THE PAGAN ORIGIN OF MODERN TONGUES. Note the fact that it was a cultural norm in the first century. www.twoagespilgrims.com/doctrine/the-pagan-origin-of-modern-speaking-in-tongues/

When we read the NT we must understand that the epistles were written to a people, with a challenge, living within a defined culture. Corinth was a cosmopolitan city with pagan worship everywhere. The biggest challenge of that church was divorcing pagan/worldly influences from its style of worship. Consider this long quote from John MacArthur as he introduces his sermons on 1 Cor 14 -

"Now, such ecstasies and ecstatic speech is very common in pagan religion. And I’m not going to take the time this morning to go from one end of the world and one end of history to the present to prove that, but I want you to understand that. That this is a very common thing in pagan religion. I was reading an article this week about how common it is among the Zulus in Africa, this kind of ecstatic, gibberish speech. And we’ve discussed that in the past. But let me give you a little background on the Corinthian situation. Remember that, for the most part, the Corinthians had allowed the entire world system in which they existed to infiltrate their assembly. For example, they were all hung up with human philosophies, the first four chapters say. They had a hero worship cult just like their society did; Chapter 3 talks about that. They were involved in terrible, gross, sexual immorality; Chapters 5 and 6 talks about that. They were suing each other in the court; Chapter 6 talks about that. They had fouled up the home and marriage and misevaluated that whole thing; Chapter 7 talks about that. They were all confused about pagan feasts and idolatry and things offered to idols; Chapters 8, 9 and 10 talks about that. They had goofed up the proper place of women in the church; Chapter 11 talks about that. They had misconstrued the whole dimension of spiritual gifts; Chapter 12 talks about that. And they had lost hold of the one great thing, love; Chapter 13 talks about that. They had let the entire mass of the Satanic system that existed in their society infiltrate the church. And once it came in, in with it came pagan style of religion, with all of the ecstasies and all of its eroticisms and all of its sensualities. They bought the whole bag, and so the whole thing is a confused amalgamation of truth and error.

A modern parallelism would be that of Roman Catholicism, which is a combination of Christianity out of the Bible and ancient Baal worship, and the Mother and Child cult that was originally known as Ashtoreth and Tammuz. The same thing occurred in the Corinthian church. It was Christianity in part and paganism in part, all wedded together.

If you study the Greco-Roman world in the time of the Corinthian church, you would know that they had various priest and priestesses, and people who were devotees of the gods would go to these great temples and they would worship these priests and priestesses. And it was very common for a devotee would go into an ecstasy. And ecstasy means “to go out of oneself.” That’s the literal meaning of the word, to go out of yourself. They would literally flip out and they would go into an unconscious state, in which they would have all kinds of phenomena occur, a psychic kind of phenomena. They would believe that when they went out of themselves, they literally left the body, and they ascended into space and they connected to deity, whatever deity they were worshiping, and they began with the deity. And once they began to commune with that deity, they would begin to speak the language of the gods. This was a very common thing in their culture. So the term used in Corinthians, glssais lalein, to speak in tongues, was not invented by Bible writers, but was a term used commonly in the Greco-Roman culture to speak of pagan ecstasy and going out of the body, connecting with the deity and, in a mystical way, beginning to speak the language of the gods, which came out as some kind of gobbledygook and gibberish.

Now, the Greeks even had a word for this ecstatic religious experience. You’ll be interested to know what the word was. It was the word “eros.” Remember that word? We sometimes translate it as sensual love. But the word is a bigger word than that; it has a broader meaning. The word eros simply means “the desire for the sensual” or “the desire for the erotic,” or “the desire for the ecstasy,” or “the desire for the ultimate experience or the feeling.” And the kind of religion they had was erotic religion. It was religion designed to be felt. It was sensual, ecstatic kind of religion. And you’ll remember, if you studied those religions, that when they went to those temples and to those priestesses to worship, they actually entered into orgies, didn't they. And that whole idea of erotic and sexual and sensual and ecstatic and the gibberish that went on with divine utterances, all was rolled into one big ball under the mystery religions that had spawned in Babylon and had come into the Corinthian society. And I’m not going to take the time to read you all of the information on that, but there is tremendous historical information that tells us that this did occur.

Now, I’m afraid that what has happened today in the Charismatic movement is just a reproduction of exactly what happened in Corinth. The church, because of a deadness and because of years of ignorance of the true work of the Holy Spirit, and because of a lack of really fine Bible teaching in many places, and because of the, just the dearth of anything really significant going on, people in the church began to reach out and to want to feel God and to sense reality. And Satan’s counterfeit came flooding in the door, and what happened now, in the Charismatic Movement, is simply Corinth revisited. The church has married the system of pagan religion again, and we have developed a sensual, feeling, experiential, erotic kind of approach to religion. Only we call it the work of the Holy Spirit when, in fact, it is the counterfeit of Satan. If you were to find time to talk with various people who have been involved in it, you would find that some of their experiences are very much in that way, very sensual, very feeling-oriented.

I have a letter in my hand, which I won’t take time to read…but probably will incorporate in the book…which is from a lady in our church who was sharing with me the amazing experience that she had when they tried to get her to speak in tongues. And there was the lying on the floor, and all kinds of various things that occurred that were very much oriented toward the emotion and stimulating the feeling, and not the thinking and the mind, as the Word of God would indicate.

Now, to give you another illustration, there is the…there's a pamphlet written by a former leader of the Pentecostal movement in which he gives a testimony, and this is what he says: “Finally, I went to the mission at 328 W. 63rd Street, Chicago, and asked only one question. ‘Why do I not receive the baptism? What is the matter with me?’ The good friends prayed with me and said nothing was wrong, I only needed to wait. “Praise the Lord they were right. “For the first time I knelt at the altar on Sunday afternoon, March 17, the power began to seize me and I laughed all through the following communion service. In the evening, about 11 p.m., I knelt with a few of the friends praying for me (Elder So-and-So placed his hands on my head for a short time, several times during the afternoon and evening). And after some little waiting I began to laugh, or rather my body was used to laugh with increasing power until I was flat on my back laughing at the top of my voice for over half an hour. “On raising, I found that I was drunk on the new wine, acting just like a drunken man in many ways and full of joy. On kneeling to meet the Lord again, I was suddenly seized with irresistible power of beseechings with groanings that could not be uttered, asking the Lord to have mercy on me a sinner, and telling Him that I wanted to go all the way with Him. The power of this praying was too great for me to endure, and suddenly my eyes opened to see Elder So-and-So, who had been standing a few feet away, fall as though he had been struck. I was relieved, and in a few seconds was straight up in the air screaming ‘Glory!’ at the top of my voice. “Again kneeling, my eyes grew dark, and I was rolled over to the floor, lying there for some time nearly unconscious. Then coming to and kneeling, I felt my jaws and mouth being worked by a strange force. In a few seconds, some baby gibberish was uttered, then a few words in Chinese that I understood, and then several sentences in a strange tongue. This turned into singing, and I did not again speak in tongues until Wednesday, three days later.” Now, what is going on there? All kinds of feeling experiences, all kinds of emotionalism, all kinds of sensual things in the broadest term of sensual, that is, apprehended by the senses rather than the mind. This was very common to pagan religion. Plato, in his dialogues…and, incidentally, Plato lived from 429 to 347 B.C., before Christ. And in his Dialogues, he has page after page after page describing these pagan ecstasies of speech. This was not anything that belonged to Christianity. In Christianity, it was the true gift of languages, used only when somebody who spoke the language was present in order that it might be a sign that God was there and that God’s people were speaking God’s truth. Never was it intended to be confused with paganism. But, as always, whenever God does something, Satan counterfeits it, doesn’t he? And that confuses the issue. And so Satan’s smokescreen to cloud the true revelatory work of the Holy Spirit in the early church were phony revelations and phony visions and phony tongues. And that’s why, 1 John, John says when somebody comes along and starts telling you they speak for God, you’d better “test the spirits.” It’s easy to fall prey to the phony. And the Corinthians, because they had decided to marry the spirit of the age, were victims. Now remember, Satan is called “the god of this age,” Satan is called “the spirit who energizes the children of disobedience.” Satan is the one who wants to be like God and Satan appears “transformed as an angel of light.” He wants to counterfeit reality; he wants the church to buy a phony. That’s his business.

And so we see in heathenism all that fake, and here, in Corinth, it had engulfed the church. And I’m afraid it’s doing the same today. There are no ecstasies, no sensualities, no eroticisms, no going out of yourself ever associated in the New Testament with the true work of the Holy Spirit. Never. Never. In fact, in 14:32 it says, “The spirits of the prophets must be subject to the prophets.” Nobody ever gives up his spirit; nobody ever loses control; nobody ever goes out of himself in terms of that which God has designed. And that’s why, at the end of the 14th chapter, the final word of the apostle Paul’s final is, “Let everything be done decently,” and what? “in order.” This is not the Holy Spirit’s way. It is not the Holy Spirit’s way to have everybody jumping up, and everybody has a Psalm – “ verse 26 “ – and everybody a doctrine and everybody a revelation and everybody an interpretation, and everybody wanting to speak in ecstasy, and everybody wanting to have a vision, and so forth. That’s the confusion of paganism that has engulfed the church. And I mean it was sophisticated stuff. The mystery religions of Babylon that had dominated the time of the Corinthian culture, they had developed all kinds of rites and rituals and vows and baptisms, and animal sacrifices and feasts and fasts and ablutions for sin, like dunking in a frozen river or crawling on your knees for miles. They had all kinds of things that were phony religious things, and ecstatic speeches and visions and prophecies were all a part of it. And they had all come to Corinth, and to assemble with the Corinthian Christians was to enter a situation of absolute chaos, total chaos. Do you know that 12th chapter says that people were actually standing up and cursing Jesus in tongues, and people were saying, “Oh, it must be the Holy Spirit”? That’s why he says, “The Holy Spirit doesn't call Jesus accursed.” Just confusion. The wild frenzy of the Greek paganism became madness in the Corinthian church.” And one writer says, “They, like the pagans, no doubt uttered And one writer says, “They, like the pagans, no doubt uttered their ecstatic speech with foaming lips and streaming hair.” And, beloved, as much as I wish it weren’t true, I’m convinced that today what we see in the Charismatic movement is the same kind of engulfing of the church in pagan religion. A counterfeit has been accepted because it impacts the emotions of people, who for a long time have sat in a church where they never got anything that changed their lives. And so Paul writes the 14th chapter to correct it."

My apologies for such a lengthy lost but it was needed seeing that I'm being accused of blasphemy already.

Now my summation on this thread is simple: 1 Cor 14 teaches two types of tongues and virtually on Pentecostals agree to this. One is the prayer tongue directed to God, unintelligible, not subject to interpretation, etc. The other is the interpretable tongue. My contention is that Paul was talking of two tongues also, but one is pagan babble. The other the genuine tongue. I'm saying that the pagan babble is what modern Pentecostals speak. If this is not so then respond to my three points challenge earlier:

1. Show us where else the bible teaches that tongues or any other gift of the Spirit where given for self benefit or edification?
2. Tell us what tongues spoken today by Pentecostals cannot be interpreted.
3. Tell us in honest fact if you cannot see a similarity BTW the Corinthian Confusion and modern Charismatic Chaos.

To avoid repetition, I shall not be discussing matters I've trashed on this thread. And I'm convinced I am done with the matter of tongues being pagan babble. Everyone has a right to their opinion.

Cheers.[/size]

WinsomeX:


The simplest way of exegesis of biblical doctrine is to have at least two scriptures to support it. If Pentecostals use only 1 Cor 14:4 as basis for edification of self and can find no other scripture to either support it or even find some other scriptures that speak of other gift edifying self, they must rest content on the fact that Tongues for Self Edification is false doctrine. Paul stated tongues edifying self in 1 Cor 14:4 in a negative context in contrast with prophesy edifying the church, which is positive.

ABDULADINO:
Winsomex, Jude 1:20 supports self edification.

WinsomeX:


Thank you Abdul. I could easily have consented with you, only that I'm certain that only Pentecostals regard "praying in the Holy Ghost" as stated in Jude 20 as speaking in tongues. The wider spectrum of evangelical Christianity regard such praying as normal, sincere, honest and fervent prayers to God - in understandable language.

When Jesus spoke to the woman at the well, he told her of those who will worship God in spirit and in truth. Prayers, a sought of worship, will be in the spirit when it is said in truth. If there are any people NOT praying in truth and therefore not praying in the spirit, it is Pentecostals. I remember hours of meaningless "kabashing" working up the flesh saying we are praying in tongues. The mere fact that you don't know what you're saying is tantamount to not praying in truth and thus not praying in the spirit.

Jude 20 is very debatable as to whether or not it is praying in tongues. I would like to see a credible bible commentary render this tongues. What I see many regard it is simple intelligible praying.

WinsomeX:
^^^

I can't seem to open it at the moment. I'll try later. But Calvin certainly taught tongues.

There had been cessationists since the days of the Church Councils. But as a well-defined viewpoint, modern cessationism starts with John Calvin. Back in the days of the Reformation, the Vatican had sent Robert Bellarmine to win back the people who had joined the Reformed churches. One of Bellarmine's main methods was to point to wondrous signs done by loyal Catholics, and then ask, 'Where's your miracles? How is God working through you?' For a while, at least, Bellarmine was quite effective. Calvin knew he had to respond to that specific challenge. Calvin replied :

"The gift of healing, like the rest of the miracles, which the Lord willed to be brought forth for a time, has vanished away in order to make the new preaching of the Gospel marvelous forever."
(*Institutes*, Battle translation, 1960, p.1467).

He drew this from Augustine of Hippo, who wrote when commenting on one particular sign in Acts 2:4 :

"In the earliest times, 'the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed: and they spake with tongues,' which they had not learned, 'as the Spirit gave them utterance.' These were signs adapted to the time. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues, to shew that the Gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening, and it passed away."

An2elect2:
WinsomeX i tend to agree with you but on this one, am amazed.

Your understanding of unknown tongues does not tally with the bible's. Pagan gibberish? ah!

An2elect2:

And i wonder where in the bible was it said that speaking in tongues, the gift of prophecy and healing would cease with the apostles! I don't understand Christians who say they are cessationists.

Wondering if they ever coveted any spiritual gift before concluding God no longer edifies His church with them.

MuttleyLaff:
The work of the Holy Spirit has been so totally misrepresented.
There are essentially three forces in Christianity. This is called the third force: Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and Pentecostalism.

And we have said much through the years, the church has, about the errors of Roman Catholicism.

We have said a whole lot less about the errors of Pentecostalism because they threaten us with accusations of being divisive, and that causes some people to be silent.

I’m not defending the truth for the sake of my own church or the sake of my own opinion.
I’m eager to defend the truth for the sake of the Holy Spirit, not that He needs me as a defender,
but He needs me to not grieve Him and not quench Him and not insult Him and certainly to recognize what dishonors Him.
I feel like the psalmist who said, ''The reproaches that fall on you have fallen on me''

When the Holy Spirit is dishonored, I feel the pain, and it seems to be a very popular sport to do that.

This is one of the most abused texts in the New Testament by the Charismatics.
I always expect my Bible to bleed here because it’s been wounded so many times.

They want us to believe that this is an advocacy for – advocacy text for speaking in tongues, this “groanings too deep for words.”
They want us to believe that what this verse is saying is that when you don’t know how to pray in words that you do understand, launch off into glossolalia in words that you don’t understand and this is the Holy Spirit doing what you can’t do.

That is not what this verse means, as you will see in a moment. It’s utterly foreign to the reality of the meaning of this text to impose that on it.

- culled from
Groanings Too Deep for Words by John MacArthur

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@Ubenedictus @Squad4 @sportsmaster, @ABDULADINO, @gombs, @An2elect2, @Goshen360
WinsomeX is 110% correct in saying that gibberish is what is espoused as talking in a different language among modern day believers

By the way, though old habit are difficult to die, its close to 11 years now that I've managed to curtail doing this gibberish or nonsense
and I deliberately said, managed, because it sometimes wants to subconsciously rear its ugly head and slip back in
Mind you, I do groaning in the spirit (i.e. that's where & when applicable) but dont anymore do gibberish
- aside the different kinds of groaning out of pain, out of despair, out of pleasure etcetera,
there is a distinction (i.e. particularly in regards to when praying) between groaning in the spirit and talking gibberish
Jesus groaned in the spirit (i.e. John 11:33 and John 11:38)
but it wasnt the sort of gibberish thing we have and see in modern believers settings or gatherings

As said, I, too, when praying intensely do experience groaning in the spirit
- it usually is making deep inarticulate sound(s) or grunts during praying, out of pain, anguish, desperation or some strong emotion
Want to believe, its similar to, if not on par with that, Hannah style of praying (i.e. 1 Samuel 1:10)

No one should allow anyone to label and box them.
I dont suffer labelling gladly or lightly.
If it were I, instead of accepting a label,
I would've asked what, to the questioner's understanding, is a cessationist and what is cessationist all about, for anyone to be called such

As from the little familiarity I know of WinsomeX, he shouldnt have easily succumbed to the veiled combative question
namely because
#1 he believes prophecy hasnt stopped,
#2 believes healing hasnt stopped, and
#3 believes speaking in different tongues hasnt stopped

The above are in one shape or the other still very much around and are presented below as:
#1 Prophecy - now in form of word of wisdom and/or the word of knowledge (i.e. 1 Corinthians 12:8')
#2 Healing - gifts of healing and various kinds of tongues (i.e. 1 Corinthians 12:28)
#3 Different tongue(s) - Apart from the gift of various kinds of tongues in 1 Corinthians 12:28,
FLS, is another form of the gift of speaking in a different tongue,
albeit some here, like our always on form vooks, might class it as tongue in cheek for referencing it here

The thing is, a lot of the time, we read the Bible and take it at face value only,
without bothering looking under the hood to find hidden meanings in passages such as 1 Corinthians 14
Also, the desire to understand the bigger picture or motive behind what the person (i.e. Paul) was actually saying in 1 Corinthians 14, is usually not there.
In addition, the curiosity to know, what brought the saying about in 1 Corinthians 14,
why the saying had to be said the manner/way it was said, the circumstances, the setting, background etcetera is most times absent.

It is an unhidden fact, that with the exception of Ephesus, Paul stayed at Corinth longer than any other city in the NT times we know of.
Ancient Corinth was a sailing port, hence a cosmopolitan city, where one expects to hear diverse languages spoke,
see imported & different customs etcetera and so the believers at Corinth wouldnt be an exception to this
as they too would have been exposed to varied external influences, habits etcetera of people from region different to their individual origins

Paul, understandably, albeit without having to need two tablets, like Moses needed for his headaches with the Israelites,
had his fair share of headaches with the church at Corinth than any other of his Bible recorded visiting place

This obviously is due to the diversities in culture, languages, habits, practices etcetera from the wide range of congregating ''outsiders'' in Corinth

I have to pause here but will asap continue from where I've temporaily stopped

PS: By the way Jude 1:20 has nothing to do speaking in tongues but means what it says out of the tin
(i.e. means literally pray in the Holy Spirit, as in like one of those ''thy will be done'' prayers)

#3 Different tongue(s) - Apart from the gift of various kinds of tongues in 1 Corinthians 12:28,
FLS, is another form of the gift of speaking in a different tongue,

vooks:


Winsomex,
Unfortunately this is your own rule. And am surprised you would invoke it seeing you have derived unknown tongue vs tongues distinction WITHOUT a single verse to support your Eisegesis. This broda can't keep his own rules,and he expects us to observe them failure to which we are labeled as peddlers of false doctrine

A simple question I leave you with is, what is 1 Corinthians 14:4 saying?
Once you gain enough courage to answer that, please tell me what scripture 14:4 contradicts or appears to contradict.


Cc Gombs

vooks:

[b]
Am dying to see ANY commentary that thinks 1 Cor 14:4 has nothing to do with edification [/b]or one that thinks personal edification here is a false doctrine because they can't find ANOTHER scripture on tongues edifying privately.

Gombs:


Ah... I'm back. I have an off day today.

You see the rules my friend create? They give me some laugh.

Let me read on. I've missed much

Gombs:
Having read this much, I must say I'm intrigued at this thread. I love the way each one presented matters, devoid of personal tantrums. This is some good start.

I'd like to say a thing or two, and I Hope we get some flavor from it. I've always being in the WoF, I've followed Kenyon, Hagin, Idahosa, and now Oyakhilome. I've studied these folks, and what they taught, and I believe them wholly. There are times I rejected what they taught, for example, there are times Hagin contradicted Oyakhilome, at a point, I had to contact joagbaje for counsel. However... This is about tongues, and clearly, they all agree on same, so, I'd write on my thoughts, after some study and experiences.

The issue of tongues in the church is a really interesting one, because all Christians ought to speak in tongues. However, due to certain teachings, and religious battery of scriptures,we are where we are today, and God will surely fix His Church.

In the Church world today, many people say, “Tongues have been done away with, because the Bible says that tongues will cease.” The Bible does say that one day, tongues will cease (1 Corinthians 13:8–12), but that is not referring to this present Church Age. In Heaven, there will be no necessity for tongues, because that which is perfect will have come (1 Cor. 13:10).

There are those who purport to believe in speak­ing in tongues but do not feel that tongues are neces­sary for all believers. It’s important to understand that there is a difference between the gift of tongues that accompanies the baptism in the Holy Spirit, which every believer can receive, and the gift of tongues that is a ministry gift.

I hope this is understood... It's important.

(For a more detailed teaching on this subject, please read, The Holy Spirit and His Gifts Study Guide - Kenneth Hagin)

I will be talking about the gift of tongues given for every believer. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is for all those who believe (Acts 2:38–39); therefore, speaking in tongues as an evidence of the Spirit’s infilling is also for all those who believe. This cannot be swept under the carpet. If you're born again, you're qualified for the baptism of the Holy Ghost, and speaking in tongues is an evidence of the infilling of the Spirit. No wonder Jesus said "they shall speak with new tongues" Mark 16:17b

Many have been robbed of the blessings God intended them to have by believing that speaking in tongues isn’t for everyone. But the Word shows us that every believer needs to be filled with the Holy Ghost. And the Word says that when we get filled with the Holy Ghost, we will speak with tongues (Acts 2:4).

However, speaking with tongues does not occur as just one initial experience of being filled with the Holy Ghost, and then it ceases. Speaking with tongues is a continual experience for the rest of one’s life.

Notice that in writing to the Church at Corinth, Paul very definitely encouraged the Corinthian Christians to follow the practice of speaking with tongues in their own private prayer lives. And he gave a number of reasons for it.


...to be continued

vooks:

You make some points which should be examined in their own like,
1. all believers ought to speak in tongues
2. There is a difference between 'gift of tongues accompanying baptism of Holy Spirit and the gift of tongues as a ministry gift.

One thing about spiritual gifts is hat they are not fully defined , and this leaves room for all sorts of creativity and guesswork. For instance, what is Knowledge? What is Wisdom?

Hagin made an excellent observation that while possessing a spiritual gift necessarily entails manifesting it, manifesting one does not mean you possess it.

He went on and gave examples of prophecy. Holy Spirit may impress onto your spirit a prophetic word for a particular moment but you don't become a prophet. Or healing. Praying for a sick person and God healing them does not mean you have the gift. And so forth

Where he erred greatly is arbitrary inventing 'offices' of a particular gift. It is good for the mind but has zero scriptural basis. This is a shining example of the creativity I have just mentioned.

To the best of my understanding and I stand corrected, tongues are supernatural ability to speak an unlearned language.

And there are no types of tongues

or offices or ministry.

And the gift is not is not for all believers.

All spiritual gifts are beneficial for all but not all walk in all and most certainly not all walk in ANY. And this is not any mistake on their side.

Paul was quite particular that the unintelligible has no place in public worship whether it be prayer,song,exhortation. It is discourteous plain and simple. Many Pentecostals have grown into a culture of impunity where this is routinely flouted, and they find censuring it too much seeing they are equally guilty.

They resort to theological gymnastics and aberrations such as inventing types of tongues.

Cessationists observing this flagrant breach of these clear regulations rightly accuse Pentecostals of anarchy.

The half baked dishonest retorts of 'types' of tongues among others don't help at all.

So we have the epic clash of Cessationists baseless claims and Pentecostals impunity and thousands of books and arguments in between

Gombs:







Well, they can be understood fully, if they're looked into with scriptures.

Very correct.



You're getting it right. Hagin was so on point there. Did you read the book?

Really!? How exactly?

By, "Unlearned", you mean? Keep this verse in perspective..

Acts 2:4

4 And they were all filled with the[b] Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.[/b]

Wrong buddy! There are

1 Corinthians 13

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels,

Wrong again. There are...

Ephesians 4:10
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Those are ministry gifts. Paul said Jesus gave them as gifts to the church.

It’s important to understand that there is a difference between the gift of tongues that accompanies the baptism in the Holy Spirit, which every believer can receive, and the gift of tongues that is a ministry gift.

Spiritual gifts are given by impartation (ask for proof), and yeah.. It is for all believers, Paul asked us to desire spiritual gifts. Ministry gifts on the other hand is a calling, not imparted.

Ummm... I lost you a while ago. Mind rephrasing.

Quit flipping buddy!

I'd have to let this humor me.




But there are.

There are no scripture on Knowledge or Wisdom. But there is plenty of presumption and speculation

Because there is nothing such as office of tongues and tongues, there is just tongues.

By unlearned I mean a language you have never learned before so you can't communicate in it of your own. For instance, if you have never learnt Mandarin and suddenly you prayed in Mandarin. Unlearned is not in a derogatory sense as in illiterate and ignorant.

I mean the gift of tongues is ONE and the same, you don't have office of tongues, ministry of tongues and then the gift of tongues; all you have are tongues

Is this verse EXHAUSTIVE of ministries/ callings?

It is IMPORTANT to understand that you just imagine this. But it is not exactly imagining but regurgitating Hagin WITHOUT a shred of evidence from the scriptures

Why is this 'gift of tongues as ministry gift conspicuously missing from the Ephesians list?

You just cooked another vocabulary. All gifts are from Holy Spirit. Simple biblical truth free of men craftiness. Paul exhorts us to pursue higher gift of prophecy one he had just indicated to be a gift. Seems like you need to teach him a thing or two about impartation vs calling.

Is tongues a MINISTRY/OFFICE?

Paul is clear that NOT ALL speak in tongues at Corinth

Gombs:
.

Slow it down Old sport! By Gift of tongues as a ministry Gift, as I saw it, is the utterances those called to those offices utter, by the Spirit. I wasn't trying to say there's an office of tongues.

Too proud to admit goofing.

So a spiritual gift exercised by anyone called to 'those offices' become a 'ministry gift' different from the average Joe, the 'uncalled'?

So, the tongues of men is same as that of angels?

Question is HOW are those utterances by the Spirit 'those called utter' different from the utterance by the Spirit manifesting vide an uncalled dude like you?

Gombs:






Whatever sails yout boat, son, is fine with me!

If I prophesy now, does it mean I'm called into the office of a prophet? Don't try to twist my point... I can see you're doing a shoddy job at it.

Meanwhile, you didn't answer my question...


Since you said the gifts of tongues are One and the same.

Wait for my continuation son!

Paul exhorts us to pursue higher gift of prophecy one he had just indicated to be a gift

6. Lastly, you claim Paul taught that tongues might be used in private prayers. Can you refer me to that scripture, please?

vooks:

You found this thread civil. Try and leave it that way.


I would say a single manifestation of a gift don't mean you are in that 'office'. Hagin long observed this. If you want to be understood, be coherent and more importantly back up your post with scriptures.


A tongue of men or angel remains a tongue and there is no such artificial distinction imagined here;
It’s important to understand that there is a difference between the gift of tongues that accompanies the baptism in the Holy Spirit, which every believer can receive, and the gift of tongues that is a ministry gift.

Remain civil. 'Son' is demeaning but am least offended. Take your time, if you want a week to go get backup, get Joagbaje,Google, Hagin and all. Winsomex does not mind waiting
Here, am only interested in the Word of Life and so far, you are very far from it

Squad4:
First of all I would like you to understand the premise of Paul's discuss; This was a note to a fellowship of Christians who meet together to worship God and uphold each others faith through the various ministries that God has given to each of them, for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. This doesn't represent personal prayers or personal devotion, this was as regards ministering to the Church. How many of us have a chance to minister in the current structure of our churches? Well thats another discuss on the organisation of the "CHURCH".

That being said tongues are a gift of the holy spirit(Act 10 vs 44, Act 19 vs 6) and i dare say it can be used in two forms;
1. One in prays to God as in "groanings" as captured in Rom 8 vs 23 the spirit also helps us pray and makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be understood by man Rom 8 vs 26. It is the spirit that gives you utterance to speak in tongues, if you are not prompted, you do not speak (Acts 2 vs 4).
2. And in ministration to the Church in which case it needs to be interpreted by the speaker or by another person who understands the tongue(1 Cor 12 vs 10-11).

Paul's advice; "...covet to prophesy and forbid not to speak with tongues"

***And note what Paul said about when two prophecy...let the other Judge...is the setting of the present Church allowing for this? The problem you have with tongues is it due to the teaching of a singular Pastor? Think on these things!***

Squad4:
First of all I would like you to understand the premise of Paul's discuss; This was a note to a fellowship of Christians who meet together to worship God and uphold each others faith through the various ministries that God has given to each of them, for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. This doesn't represent personal prayers or personal devotion, this was as regards ministering to the Church. How many of us have a chance to minister in the current structure of our churches? Well thats another discuss on the organisation of the "CHURCH".

That being said tongues are a gift of the holy spirit(Act 10 vs 44, Act 19 vs 6) and i dare say it can be used in two forms;
1. One in prays to God as in "groanings" as captured in Rom 8 vs 23 the spirit also helps us pray and makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be understood by man Rom 8 vs 26. It is the spirit that gives you utterance to speak in tongues, if you are not prompted, you do not speak (Acts 2 vs 4).
2. And in ministration to the Church in which case it needs to be interpreted by the speaker or by another person who understands the tongue(1 Cor 12 vs 10-11).

Paul's advice; "...covet to prophesy and forbid not to speak with tongues"

***And note what Paul said about when two prophecy...let the other Judge...is the setting of the present Church allowing for this? The problem you have with tongues is it due to the teaching of a singular Pastor? Think on these things!***

Gombs:
Continued...

Notice that in writing to the Church at Corinth, Paul very definitely encouraged the Corinthian Christians to follow the practice of speaking with tongues in their own private prayer lives. And he gave a number of reasons for it.

1. Devotional Use—Speaking Divine Secrets

There is the devotional use of tongues. Sounds strange, but it's true, and totally biblical.

1 Corinthians 14:2 says, “For he who speaks in a ‘tongue’ addresses God, not man; no one understands him; he is talking of divine secrets in the Spirit” (Moffatt). Here, Paul is talking about the individual Spirit-filled believer employing the use of tongues in his prayer life. notice, it was talking about an individual praying in tongues.

Through speaking in tongues, you can pray out the plan of God for your life by the power of the Holy Spirit. Why? How? Because he speaks to God, By then help of the Holy Spirit, who helps us pray as we ought to, making intercessions with groans that cannot be uttered. When I speak in tongues...My Spirit prays.

2. Spiritual Edification

Tongues are also used as a means of spiritual edi­fication. The Bible says, “He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifteth himself . . .” (1 Cor. 14:4). The word “edifieth” means to build up.
You could see same in the book of Jude 20....it talks about building oneself... Praying in the Holy Ghost.

Reading on in the same chapter, The Amplified Bible reads, “My spirit [by the Holy Spirit within me] prays, but my mind is unpro­ductive . . .” (1 Cor. 14:14).

So praying in tongues is not for mental edification, but for spiritual edification. Simple and clear.

3.Worshipping God

The Bible says in Acts 10:46 concerning Cor­nelius and his household when they began to speak with tongues, “For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. . . .” . Speaking with tongues is a supernatural way to magnify God. Oh! I know that experience!

4. Doorway to the Supernatural

Speaking with tongues is the doorway into all the other spiritual gifts. I've not seen any who manifests the gifts of the Spirit, and doesn't speak in other tongues.... I'm yet to see any.

Some people want to experience all the gifts of the Spirit at once, but you have to go through the door to get into the supernatural. This is why we have many failed churches. Churches who want to manifest the gifts they've read about,yet they still say tongues are done away with.

If you do not speak in other tongues, there are depths in God and Christianity you'd never experience.

Also, it is as the Spirit of God wills, not as we will (1 Cor. 12:11). In other words, you can’t force or “put on” a manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit.

The Bible teaches us to desire spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 14:1), a point I tried getting vooks to understand...he rather said;



A ploy to water down the gifts of tongues. However, the Bible also teaches us to earnestly covet the best gifts (1 Cor. 12:31).

Let's remember that those words were written to people who already spoke in tongues. They weren’t written to people who did not speak with tongues.

Conclusion:

God has given each of us a supernatural means of edifying ourselves, or building ourselves up, spiritually. God has given to us a supernatural means of communicating with and worshipping Him. As a Spirit-filled believer take full advantage of the gift of tongues.

Cc: WinsomeX


Scripture,? It's dotted all over 1Corinthians 14... Try verse 4. Paul encouraged the practice of speaking in tongues in their own private prayer life.