DoctorAlien:
More blows to your erroneous beliefs, easymancfc:

"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence." Psa. 115:17

"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Psa. 6:5

"For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth." Isa. 38:18

It seems GOD knew that many people will misinterpret the message He would pass through Peter and erroneously claim that Christ went to preach to spirits of dead people, and so He spoke through Isaiah that dead people cannot hope for GOD's truth. Now if that is the case that the dead cannot hope for GOD's truth, How could it be that Jesus went to preach this truth to dead people?

Again....correct

PastorAIO:


I think a big part of the problem here, and generally in threads like this is that many people are unaware that the bible contains a variety of theologies, and a variety of cosmologies.

You run into the problems you do when you think that the bible is coherent all over. It is neither coherence nor cogent.

Hmmm, there is this....

Though i wouldnt put it this way but it is true that the world view and theology in the bible isnt exactly the same from genesis to revelation. Catholics like to call it "progressive revelation"...i.e as time when on the people of God continued to gain a clearer idea of who God is and what He demands.

DoctorAlien:
Ubenedictus, here is a quote from Wikipedia

Continue deceiving yourself.

Give the full wikipedia link.


Do u even know when the jews finally defined their canon? Long after d death of Jesus! are you a jew?

Ubenedictus, this is the Wikipedia link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon#Jewish_canons

It is stated categorically and unequivocally there that Sirach "was ultimately not accepted into Hebrew canon."

Therefore neither Paul, nor the early Christians used that uninspired book. And when Paul says "scripture", we know that sirach is not included.

DoctorAlien:
I don't understand: did Eccl. 9:10 stop being true in the NT?
The Bible says there is no knowledge of any sort in the grave.

Ofcuz there is no knowledge in the grave, dead bodies are put in graves and there is no knowledge there.
we are talking about the spirit after death.

DoctorAlien:
Ubenedictus, this is the Wikipedia link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon#Jewish_canons

It is stated categorically and unequivocally there that Sirach "was ultimately not accepted into Hebrew canon."

Therefore neither Paul, nor the early Christians used that uninspired book. And when Paul says "scripture", we know that sirach is not included.

Haha,

You link also say that the jewish canonisation process ended in 200AD and that much of the 'writtings' were canonised in 70AD which means the jews didnt have a fixed canon during d time of Jesus and Apostle and the church used its own canon. That means paul and Jesus and all the Apostle were very much at liberty to use sirach and d other books and they did.

italo:


Jesus established the Catholic Church in 33AD.

Martin Luther established protestantism 1500 years later.

So, in a sense, Jesus is Catholic.

Nonsense, heressy of the highest order

DoctorAlien:


I want to correct the first mistake you made: the Bible doesn't call it "my" or "your" spirit; it calls it "the" spirit. The spirit belongs to GOD.

What then is that spirit? We can be sure that it is not a conscious being. The spirit that returns to GOD is simply the breath of life which He gave in Genesis 2:7. That spirit + body = soul, Gen. 2:7 tells us.

"All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of GOD is in my nostrils;" Job 27:3

Job points out that the spirit of GOD is in His nostrils. Surely the spirit is not a conscious being, because the only thing in our nostrils is breath.

Isaiah 26:9 says this: “At night my soul longs for Thee, indeed my spirit WITHIN me seeks Thee diligently.”
Zech.12:1: “Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man WITHIN him:” Here we see that the physical man is different than the Spirit in him.

DoctorAlien:


Surely the soul can die. A soul is simply a life. Isn't it very clear from Gen. 2:7 that a soul is not a sort of thing that escapes the body when a person dies?

The Bible calls fishes and animals souls too. Does it mean that they have a conscious form which exits their body at death?

Job.14:22: “But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn.” Job makes the distinction saying the flesh is upon him and the soul is within him.

DoctorAlien:


Your questions assume a premise: that the soul is different from the body. Gen. 2:7 tells that soul = body + breath. So, when a person is blown to pieces, the spirit(breath) which GOD gave returns to Him, while the body returns to dust.

Job 34:14-15: “If He should set His heart on it, if He should gather to Himself Spirit (His breath?) and His breath, All flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust.” Here both breath and spirit are distinguished otherwise one would be gathering to himself spirit and his spirit or breath and his breath.
Ps. 19:7: “The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the BREATH, the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;” The conversion is to ones soul, their inner being so it can rule over their body.
2 Cor. 7:1: “Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and BREATH (spirit),” Does this mean we take breath mints?

Ubenedictus:
Haha,

You link also say that the jewish canonisation process ended in 200AD and that much of the 'writtings' were canonised in 70AD which means the jews didnt have a fixed canon during d time of Jesus and Apostle and the church used its own canon. That means paul and Jesus and all the Apostle were very much at liberty to use sirach and d other books and they did.

You throw your sense into the bin when it serves your purpose of defending a baseless claim.

If sirach was never accepted as Scripture, and certainly not around the time of Jesus or Paul, how can a right-thinking human being suppose that Jesus or Paul would make use of sirach as Scripture?

Ubenedictus:
Job 34:14-15: “If He should set His heart on it, if He should gather to Himself Spirit (His breath?) and His breath, All flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust.” Here both breath and spirit are distinguished otherwise one would be gathering to himself spirit and his spirit or breath and his breath.
Ps. 19:7: “The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the BREATH, the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;” The conversion is to ones soul, their inner being so it can rule over their body.
2 Cor. 7:1: “Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and BREATH (spirit),” Does this mean we take breath mints?

The word in Psa. 19:7 is napes, which is soul. Don't invent things to support your baseless claims.

GOD tells us categorically in Gen. 2:7 that a living soul is made up of body and breath. When did GOD add a soul into the body?

Ubenedictus:
Job.14:22: “But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn.” Job makes the distinction saying the flesh is upon him and the soul is within him.

The same Hebrew expression translated soul in Job 14:22 is found in Job 33:20, where it says that the "soul" abhors dainty meat. Now tell me, does the conscious whatever which you claim exists within a man accept or abhor food? Does it eat?

Again, that very Hebrew expression is found in Proverbs 7:23 and Exod. 21:30, where it is translated "life". It is even said to be redeemed with money. Can your own version of soul be bought with money?

Again, that same Hebrew expression translated "soul" in Job 14:22 is found in Isa. 29:8, where the "soul" is said to be hungry for food, and to have appetite? Does the "soul" which you claim exists within a man hunger for food, or have appetite?

Can you see that the Bible does not support your claim of a conscious soul that exists within a body?

DoctorAlien:


The same Hebrew expression translated soul in Job 14:22 is found in Job 33:20, where it says that the "soul" abhors dainty meat. Now tell me, does the conscious whatever which you claim exists within a man accept or abhor food? Does it eat?

Again, that very Hebrew expression is found in Proverbs 7:23 and Exod. 21:30, where it is translated "life". It is even said to be redeemed with money. Can your own version of soul be bought with money?

Again, that same Hebrew expression translated "soul" in Job 14:22 is found in Isa. 29:8, where the "soul" is said to be hungry for food, and to have appetite?

Can you see that the Bible does not support your claim of a conscious soul that exists within a body?

As i said earlier, d bible translate d word to mean many things, but in d case noted above job says his soul is WITHIN him and is capable of emotion. is ur soul capable of that?

Ubenedictus:
As i said earlier, d bible translate d word to mean many things, but in d case noted above job says his soul is WITHIN him and is capable of emotion. is ur soul capable of that?

Oga, does your own version of soul which you say exists within you be hungry for food, or have appetite? Can it bought with money by your fellow man?

You can see that Job is not talking about a conscious entity within his body which probably flies out after death.

DoctorAlien:


The word in Psa. 19:7 is napes, which is soul. Don't invent things to support your baseless claims.

GOD tells us categorically in Gen. 2:7 that a living soul is made up of body and breath. When did GOD add a soul into the body?

Isaiah 26:9 says this: “ At night my soul longs for Thee, indeed my spirit within me seeks Thee diligently.” Zech.12:1: “Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:”

DoctorAlien:


You throw your sense into the bin when it serves your purpose of defending a baseless claim.

If sirach was never accepted as Scripture, and certainly not around the time of Jesus or Paul, how can a right-thinking human being suppose that Jesus or Paul would make use of sirach as Scripture?

I dont know if u are making effort to be dull or if you ignorance is sincere.

The jews did NOT have a set canon during the time of Jesus, the jews fixed their canon in 200AD and d writting were canon abt 90AD(that is after the church came to existence and after Christ), before then jews used a much wider canon, the quram cave discoveries prove this and even d bible shows this because d book of enoch and d assumption of moses is quoted in d new testament. there was a much larger canon at d time.

Pastoraio a little help here, i dont know if dralien is pretending not to know that d jewish canon of the 1st century was much larger than what was later fixed.

AS I EARLIER SAID, the soul is a word used to mean many different thing according to it context

DoctorAlien:

Oga, does your own version of soul which you say exists within you be hungry for food, or have appetite?

here soul means d seat of human appetite and yes can b hungary

Can it bought with money by your fellow man?

here it means life, which can be bought...

You can see that Job is not talking about a conscious entity within his body which probably flies out after death.

job was talking in dat passage about his soul within him and dat soul has emotion! how do u explain that?

Ubenedictus:
Isaiah 26:9 says this: “ At night my soul longs for Thee, indeed my spirit within me seeks Thee diligently.” Zech.12:1: “Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:”

We know that Isaiah 26:9 was talking about the being of the person, or his essence.

The same word found in Zech. 12:1 is found in Job 27:3 where it is called breath.

rhektor:


Nonsense, heressy of the highest order

Because you say so?

DoctorAlien:


Jesus was telling the Jews that in the eyes of GOD, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are as good and living in GOD's eyes, because they are destined for the first resurrection which is for the holy and blessed.(Rev. 20)

Bear in mind that part of Jesus' audience then were the Saduccees, who did not believe in the resurrection. So, Jesus effectually dealt a blow to their incorrect beliefs by telling that Abraham will live again.

I believe you are reading/interpreting according to your bias.

Jesus said, "God is NOT the God of the dead but of the LIVING"
This can only mean one thing: and that is what is stated above.

The painful implication is that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are Alive (even though, we know they were dead and buried). If they are alive, then, they must have the form of Angels who don't need brains to have a memory and who don't need bones and muscles to walk.

A question you may even ask yourself is that after transfiguration what happened to Moses and Elijah. Did they die again? Are they still alive? Where are they since we know that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

italo:


Because you say so?

Yes because you attributes rubbish with the Lord Jesus.

Ubenedictus:
AS I EARLIER SAID, the soul is a word used to mean many different thing according to it context here soul means d seat of human appetite and yes can b hungary here it means life, which can be bought...

job was talking in dat passage about his soul within him and dat soul has emotion! how do u explain that?

That soul is his essence, or his being, not some entity that flies out at death.

According to GOD, LIVING SOUL = BODY + BREATH OF LIFE(Gen. 2:7).

CC.
Dralien
pastoraio
easymancfc
italo
since dralien claims not to know that the word for soul has more than 1 meaning i have presented d hebrew concordance.

ֶפֶשׁ nephesh {neh'-fesh}
Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration- Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion 1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood) 1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions
1g) activity of mind 1g1) dubious 1h) activity of the will 1h1) dubious 1i) activity of the character
1i1) dubious
lexiconcordance.com/hebrew/5315.html

ARE YOU STILL DENEYING THAT AMONG THE MEANINGS OF SOUL, IT ALSO REFERS TO THE INNER BEING IN MAN?

Ubenedictus:
ֶפֶשׁ nephesh {neh'-fesh}
Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration- Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion 1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood) 1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions
1g) activity of mind 1g1) dubious 1h) activity of the will 1h1) dubious 1i) activity of the character
1i1) dubious
lexiconcordance.com/hebrew/5315.html

ARE YOU STILL DENYING THAT AMONG THE MEANINGS OF SOUL, IT ALSO REFERS TO THE INNER BEING IN MAN?

The concordance is not inspired and I refuse to accept its teaching which negates GOD's own.

According to GOD, LIVING SOUL = BODY + BREATH OF LIFE(Gen. 2:7).

The Hebrew word translated “soul” in the Old Testament is nephesh, which simply means “a breathing creature.”Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words defines nephesh as “the essence of life, the act of breathing, taking breath … The problem with the English term 'soul' is that no actual equivalent of the term or the idea behind it is represented in the Hebrew language. The Hebrew system of thought doesnot include the combination oropposition of the 'body' and 'soul' which are really Greek and Latin in origin” (1985, p. 237-238, emphasis added).

The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible makes this comment on nephesh: “The word 'soul' in English, though it has to some extent naturalized the Hebrew idiom, frequently carries with it overtones, ultimately coming from philosophical Greek (Platonism) and from Orphism and Gnosticism which are absent in 'nephesh.' In the OT itnever means the immortal soul, but it is essentially the life principle, or the living being, or the self as the subject of appetite, and emotion, occasionally of volition” (Vol. 4, 1962, “Soul,” emphasis added). That nephesh doesn't refer to an immortal soul can be seen in the way the word is used in the Old Testament. It is translated “soul” or “being” in reference to man inGenesis 2:7, but also to animals by being translated “creature” inGenesis 1:24.Nephesh is translated “body” in Leviticus 21:11 in reference to a human corpse.

rhektor:

Yes because you attributes rubbish with the Lord Jesus.

To believe that Jesus founded the millions of contradictory protestant sects...that is attributing RUBBISH to the Lord Jesus.

The immortal-soul concept isn't part of the Old Testament, but it began to make in roads into Jewish thought as Jews came in contact with Greek culture. In the first century the Jewish philosopher Philo taught a Platonic concept: “… The death of a man is the separation of his soul from his body …” ( The Works of Philo, translated by C.D. Yonge, 1993, p. 37). Philo followed the Hellenistic view that the soul is freed upon death to an everlasting life of virtue or evil.

Source:

https://www.ucg.org/the-good-news/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-immortal-soul

DoctorAlien:


We know that Isaiah 26:9 was talking about the being of the person, or his essence.

so d essence of a person can be bought and sold?

The same word found in Zech. 12:1 is found in Job 27:3 where it is called breath.

Daniel 7:15

HEB: אֶתְכְּרִיַּ֥ת רוּחִ֛י אֲנָ֥ה דָנִיֵּ֖אל

NAS: As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed*


SO according to you, the above means, 'as for me daniel my BREATH was distressed?

italo:


To believe that Jesus founded the millions of contradictory protestant sects...that is attributing RUBBISH to the Lord Jesus.

Jesus only came to reunite humanity with God by providing the way to the Father